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Personally, the APs with a bunch of well-rounded, interesting NPCs are always my favorites. Paths like WftC, Hell's Rebels, Jade Regent, and CotCT are more memorable to me because of their NPC cast. Maybe it's just that my groups tend to love social RP, but it definitely increases investment in the game for us to have a bunch of NPC friends (and sometimes love interests!) hanging out with the PCs. Sometimes the party even makes friends that the campaign didn't expect us to make!
It makes the campaign feel more like a story and less like it's happening in a table vacuum, imo.
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Prominent NPCs are great to have personalities for players to latch onto. Otherwise, the dm will inevitably do the work themselves with one off NPCs within the adventure, turning them into reoccurring characters or they'll create one whole cloth themselves. Adventure Zone wouldn't be the same without Garfield the deal warlock of Fantasy Costco.
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One small issue i had wasnt with ruby phoenix persay but the adventure that proceeded it and how they relate or don't. And to be honest im more willing to say its a personal thing then an actual problem. I think Ruby Phoenix is wonderful for most party of adventurers and works great as continuations for a lot of adventures. But abomination vaults inspires me to make characters that wouldnt go to a tournament in a country across the earth. Abomination vaults between the vibes of Otaria, the prmeise of the adventure, and the backgrounds in players guides... makes me want to play a reaident of otari. With a capital C. Someone who is less an adventurer and more so someone with skills that can be devent for adventuring and well something bad or mysterious is happening near their town. They want to save their town because its their home, where they lived and grewed up. And when that is over they are going to go home to their wife or their siblings, or whoever is important to them. Hang up that magical cloak they found and have a cup of tea by the fireplace. They are not glory chasers, they have nothing to prove by going to some tournament. But I also thik thats why i dont see a need to make a "sequel" to AV either.
Now then you totally can make a character that wants to go on adventures and explore far off places, which is why I think this whole thing is more of a me thing.
(Quest for the frozen flames also sort of gives me this vibes. The harsh nature of where they live and the nomadic nature of the community makes it a bit easier than Abomination Vaults imo. But with the focus on community made me wonder, why would they risk going across the world, when their are people who look to them for leadership.)
That being said the world is diverse and other people can probably easily come up with characters that work for both, and gms can probably come up with amazing bridges and plot points to make a character go from one place to the other. Just because I struggle with it. Doesnt make ot bad.
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If you're asking for a 1-10 AP that ends with the PCs near where Ruby Phoenix begins, not likely. The goal of Ruby Phoenix was that it requires "heroes who have proven themselves" in order to get invited to try out for the tournament, which means that ANY 1—10 Adventure Path was intended to be one positioned for proceeding into that Adventure Path.
Seems like getting from say Abasalom (or Otari) to the site of Ruby Phoenix could be an adventure in itself. :-)
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Quest for the Frozen Flame is an AP that I have a hard time seeing as a jumping off point for any 11-20 adventure, or at least the two announced so far. Our PCs in that campaign were 100% motivated by the safety of their tribe, and unless something threatens that I don’t see them going on any further adventures.
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Seems like getting from say Abasalom (or Otari) to the site of Ruby Phoenix could be an adventure in itself. :-)
Since they invite only 32 teams, and the organizers of the Ruby Phoenix are sitting on one of the greatest hoards of magical treasure on the planet, it seems plausible that they can just send a ship to pick up every team they invite. Hao Jin likely owned at least 32 magical ships.
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I'm a little surprised that folks are so opposed to going from the existing 1-10s to Ruby Phoenix, as it always felt to me like each one would produce a team as tightly-themed as the NPCs are. Surely the audiences would love a team of steampunk outlaws or Mammoth Lords?
Stolen Fate does seem like a more typical "adventure" campaign that player characters might strike up after already becoming heroes, though. I hope people like it!
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Seems like getting from say Abasalom (or Otari) to the site of Ruby Phoenix could be an adventure in itself. :-)Since they invite only 32 teams, and the organizers of the Ruby Phoenix are sitting on one of the greatest hoards of magical treasure on the planet, it seems plausible that they can just send a ship to pick up every team they invite. Hao Jin likely owned at least 32 magical ships.
You're completely missing the point.
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You're completely missing the point.
I mean the thing about "starting at level 11" is that "teleport" is a 6th level spell and an 11th level Wizard can cast it, although it's rare. "Teleport anywhere on the planet" is a thing 15th level Wizards can do Since the Party starts encountering 15th level things in the 2nd part of the first book of the AP, it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the Ruby Phoenix organization has arranged to teleport everybody to a convenient location. At least, that's what we did. Specifically- the Ruby Phoenix people had contracted a single 15th level Wizard to, over the course of a month, provide teleportation services to the invited teams to the city of Kasai and once the contestants were assembled transportation by ship was arranged. Effectively you just give people downtime at the start of the campaign if they want to justify any crafting or retraining.
The bigger problem with coming from a 1-10 AP I think is "how did the Ruby Phoenix organizers even hear about you? But that generally falls under "it's the responsibility of the people in the game to come up with a reason it makes sense."
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You're completely missing the point.I mean the thing about "starting at level 11" is that "teleport" is a 6th level spell and an 11th level Wizard can cast it, although it's rare. "Teleport anywhere on the planet" is a thing 15th level Wizards can do Since the Party starts encountering 15th level things in the 2nd part of the first book of the AP, it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the Ruby Phoenix organization has arranged to teleport everybody to a convenient location. At least, that's what we did. Specifically- the Ruby Phoenix people had contracted a single 15th level Wizard to, over the course of a month, provide teleportation services to the invited teams to the city of Kasai and once the contestants were assembled transportation by ship was arranged. Effectively you just give people downtime at the start of the campaign if they want to justify any crafting or retraining.
The bigger problem with coming from a 1-10 AP I think is "how did the Ruby Phoenix organizers even hear about you? But that generally falls under "it's the responsibility of the people in the game to come up with a reason it makes sense."
I think what their original intent is that regardless of what other modes of transport exist, it would be *fun* to go on a journey across the world from one location to the other.
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Indeed it would.
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The last time they did a “travel from Avistan to Tian Xia” AP, a lot of people complained it didn’t start in Tian Xia and center Tian PCs… so this is a little funny to me.
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Is it truly that difficult to roll up and advance a new character to level 10/11, without playing through a series of adventures to get them to that point?
I'm running Hellbound Heists (for D&D5e, admittedly) mid 2023, and that begins at level 8. Rather than play through a load of 'prequel' adventures before getting to the good stuff, I'm just going to ask each player for a quick summary of their life prior to the point that the campaign begins, and get straight into the action.
If I was playing Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, I would be happy to create a comparitevely high level character intrinsically tied to the campaign setting (most likely a poor parody of an existing martial arts master) and get right into the tournament without preamble.
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Is it truly that difficult to roll up and advance a new character to level 10/11, without playing through a series of adventures to get them to that point?
I'm running Hellbound Heists (for D&D5e, admittedly) mid 2023, and that begins at level 8. Rather than play through a load of 'prequel' adventures before getting to the good stuff, I'm just going to ask each player for a quick summary of their life prior to the point that the campaign begins, and get straight into the action.
If I was playing Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, I would be happy to create a comparitevely high level character intrinsically tied to the campaign setting (most likely a poor parody of an existing martial arts master) and get right into the tournament without preamble.
Some people find it to be a large hurdle. Without the preceding 10 levels, they don't feel attached, etc etc.
There's also a mechanical hurdle. Where you might not fully understand how to play a level 11 character out of the box. The more play experience you have, the less this becomes a problem, but it is still an issue.
That's a good point that the 11-20 APs should start with simpler encounters so players can find their footing. The PCs aren't rookies, yet the players might be (at least for these PCs' builds & party synergy). Same goes for RPing re: plot-altering decisions as they might not have found their voice yet either so start with interactions that give them a chance to feel that out.
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I ultimately became the gm for our ruby phoenix game(forever dm) but my goal and desire as a player was to play someone from tian xia.
I think the conversation came up as a tangent from the whole connecting previous adventures to ruby phoenix. I think a lot of people would be happy/thrilled to build characters from tian xia for the adventure path when divorced from the context of trying to connect stuff.
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I feel like it's a safe bet that the last 3-part AP in 2023 is another level 1-10. I assume this one will tie in more heavily with Rage of Elements, and will be an adventure suited for kineticists. As such, it would make more sense to start at level 1 since you don't want people jumping into a brand new class at level 11.
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I feel like it's a safe bet that the last 3-part AP in 2023 is another level 1-10. I assume this one will tie in more heavily with Rage of Elements, and will be an adventure suited for kineticists. As such, it would make more sense to start at level 1 since you don't want people jumping into a brand new class at level 11.
I’m not so sure - I feel like it’s really hard to do a low-level planar adventure, which is what I would expect to be the tie-in for Rage of Elements. Something to do with the Elemental Lords coming back, or maybe the City of Brass…
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Is it truly that difficult to roll up and advance a new character to level 10/11, without playing through a series of adventures to get them to that point?
I'm running Hellbound Heists (for D&D5e, admittedly) mid 2023, and that begins at level 8. Rather than play through a load of 'prequel' adventures before getting to the good stuff, I'm just going to ask each player for a quick summary of their life prior to the point that the campaign begins, and get straight into the action.
If I was playing Fists of the Ruby Phoenix, I would be happy to create a comparitevely high level character intrinsically tied to the campaign setting (most likely a poor parody of an existing martial arts master) and get right into the tournament without preamble.
I don't get this either. Starting an AP at level 10 seems like a perfect excuse to use a character who is either
A. Imported from another AP or adventure you may have done long ago
B. Already well experienced and not a novice.
C. Well-established in another universe or setting but hasn't been used in PF2e and you're not interested in retreading their early levels
Since I’m still making random guesses, I’m going to put into the world what I want to see and go for an Abberation focused book as the fall rulebook, and change my “Underdark” guess to either Summer or Fall 2024. I do still think that a year of “Environmental challenges” makes sense as a through line for the rulebooks, but another beast book would probably enable more adventures and support the high helm AP a bit more readily, since they’re already planning to add the support articles for underground adventures into the AP itself.
I’m also going to just guess there will be an entirely new class in that book. Not because I think it’s likely, but simply because it would please me. I really feel not putting Mediums in book of the dead was a missed opportunity to redefine the class as divine and focused on spooky instead of legends, and so I would be eager to see something added to the next beast book if at all possible. In particular, the new definition of “Occult” as “Stories/Legends/Reflections” as opposed to “unfathomable” makes aberrations and oozes a bit of an odd fit, so I’d be eager to see a class inserted that could bridge those narratives. An archivist (prepared occult, a casterish answer to the Thaumaturge that dabbles in consumables and, especially, spellhearts that make her spells land harder against particular targets)?
That said, I really don’t think it’s likely. For one, a playtest would need to be run next month or so, and they probably would have already announced that one was incoming if that was the case.
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With the announcement of a bunch of Ruby Phoenix minis, I’m even further convinced that this is Tian Xia’s year.
Of course, I’ve yet to get a prediction right yet… but come on!
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New interview went up on Sky King's Tomb, and gives us the name of Book 2 and 3: ‘Cult of the Cave Worm’ and ‘Heavy is the Crown.’
It seems we have our "worms" hint resolved.
The AP is apparently "99% underground," and there's some talk about how dangerous the Darklands is. There's a lot of work done to include non-Dwarf PCs, where things will go differently for dwarves and non-dwarves. The first book is mostly in Highhelm, with the PCs working for the clan in that city devoted to the pursuit of history and on the trail of relics that potentially point to Taargick's lost tomb. It sounds like there's definitely a lot of focus on differing perspectives of history, and reckoning with revelations from the past - so I do think there's some interesting potential there for Orc stories! Book 2 apparently visits two very different, very dangerous Darklands settlements, which has me extra excited, especially after Shraen in Extinction Curse.
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At a thought... we have a Lost Omens book and an AP that are All About Dwarves. I'm thinking... extra heritages and/or ancestry feats? Paizo has been going with the "marble it in" theory on a lot of this stuff, so...
I notice that we're continuing to get little peeks into the darklands. This time, it's two settlements as part of the dwarf AP. What's it going to be next time? It neatly sidesteps the "there's too much here to do it comprehensively" issue, which is nice.
So... we have Worms as the dwarf AP (a 1-10). We've got Rust and Spider left. We have one standalone adventure and one AP remaining. Based on some of the other stuff I've read here, I really *don't* expect the second AP to be an 11-20. There was a comment by James Jacobs that would have mentioned it otherwise. At the same time... in a different post he commented that they'd been discussing alternate length for APs for years, and were "VERY CLOSE" to being able to talk to folks about them in public, which suggests reasonably storngly that our mystery AP might be one of those - possibly a two-book or a four-book or something.
Given those, Rust seems like a pretty easy link to an AP (of whatever length, probably starting at level 1 for the kineticists) that would tie in with Rage of Elements. (I find some of @willfromamerica's arguments compelling.) I can see how it might be a bit of a stretch to imagine a truly planar adventure for lower levels, but there are plenty of ways to put together an AP that would be heavy on the elements and the elementals and the powers thereof and the kineticists without taking it that far - where any planar travel is limited in scope and relatively brief, if it even occurs at all.
...and that leaves Spider as a standalone adventure that could be almost anything, but kind of defaults to having a drow tie-in.
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Golarion Drow aren't really all that spider-y, are they?
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There's also the point, on the topic of lower-level planar adventures, that if the PCs have a benefactor or a means of travel, a low-level planar travel campaign can work just fine. Pathfinder Society 1st edition had level 1-5 scenarios that went to Heaven (9-05 Shores of Heaven), the Plane of Air (8-10 Secrets of the Endless Sky), and the Plane of Earth (8-05 Ungrounded but Unbroken).
Further, Starfinder just had a three-book level 1-7 AP that involves trips to Hell and Cynosure, among others (Drift Crashers). The point is, there's a precedent for low-level planar travel adventures, and I'd love to see that showcased in an AP.
Golarion Drow aren't really all that spider-y, are they?
Ah. Fair... and given that they're actively tryign to differentiate their drow, they probably wouldn't have a spider/drwo themed adventure. So... no clue on that one, really.
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Villainous anadi, clearly.
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I still think "Spider" is about something involving a Jorogumo. One of the Masks of Vyre is one. Let's go back to Vyre.
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Jorogumo are also big in Shenmen, and we’ve had a *lot* of Tian Xia hints.
Not sure how well that works as a standalone, though. If they haven't given our the materials necessary to run campaigns in Tian Xia, then having a random standalone adventure there before we can reasonably expect to have adventurers there to do the adventuring seems perhaps not ideal.
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Isn't having an adventure somewhere how you have the tools to have an adventure somewhere?
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You’ve got most of the Tian Ancestries in 2e now (only really missing Samsarans, Wayangs, and Oni-Spawn Tieflings), and 2e has already done an entire AP on the continent. I don’t think it’s too crazy to imagine.
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I feel like it's a safe bet that the last 3-part AP in 2023 is another level 1-10. I assume this one will tie in more heavily with Rage of Elements, and will be an adventure suited for kineticists. As such, it would make more sense to start at level 1 since you don't want people jumping into a brand new class at level 11.I’m not so sure - I feel like it’s really hard to do a low-level planar adventure, which is what I would expect to be the tie-in for Rage of Elements. Something to do with the Elemental Lords coming back, or maybe the City of Brass…
Coming back to this, but what about Hobgoblins? You’ve got the Obsidian key allowing easy, controlled access to the plane of earth, and travel between hobgoblin nations on different continents.
What if earth planar beings began objecting to being used as a Highway rest stop? I could pretty easily imagine a level 1-3 or so adventure that threw players, say the guards of a caravan headed to the Tian Xia hob nation, against a particularly annoyed Xorn and its minions.
Edit: Bonus if there’s an article on the Tian xia hobgoblin nation and maybe a few character options for characters from there.
Isn't having an adventure somewhere how you have the tools to have an adventure somewhere?
I honestly don't know. What kid of publish order on matters like this does Paizo usually embrace? Do they often publish standalone adventures in a place prior to covering them via LO books (or the equivalent) or not?
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Isn't having an adventure somewhere how you have the tools to have an adventure somewhere?I honestly don't know. What kid of publish order on matters like this does Paizo usually embrace? Do they often publish standalone adventures in a place prior to covering them via LO books (or the equivalent) or not?
Fists of the Ruby Phoenix was a 3 volume Adventure Path set in Tian Xia just fine without a Lost Omens release. Night of the Grey Death didn't pair with any Lost Omens book on Galt, Shadows at Sundown didn't have an associated Korvosa release, and next year's Enmity Cycle isn't connected to 2e Thuvia coverage (that we know of, anyway - a Golden Road announcement would be lovely), so it's hardly implausible.
Think of something like Malevolence; all that really matters is the adventure site itself, which is easy enough to sum up within the Adventure itself. You could totally do a book on a haunted ruin in Shenmen or an overgrown temple complex within the Valashmai Jungle, or maybe even pick a Minkaian city for a Jade Regent homage with some intrigue!
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Re: Having splats for areas, it depends on how thoroughly the AP was designed.
Fists of the Ruby Phoenix was a 3 volume Adventure Path set in Tian Xia just fine without a Lost Omens release. Night of the Grey Death didn't pair with any Lost Omens book on Galt, Shadows at Sundown didn't have an associated Korvosa release,
"Lost Omens" is rigging the debate. There are plenty of 1e materials on Korvosa and Tian Xia (by way of the Dragon Empire Gazeteer) and I would wager more than one GM has referenced them while playing both.
Also, sometimes the AP's themselves will cite books that haven't even been released yet, like Page 52 of Blood Lords #2.
Although there’s plenty to do in Yled, Geb’s largest
city, the events of this chapter focus on the Three Gates
district. If you want to have your characters see more
of the city, refer to the entry on Yled in Pathfinder Lost
Omens: Impossible Lands or to Pathfinder Adventure
Path #185: A Taste of Ashes (when the characters
return to Yled following other leads).
Anyways, back to my point --
I felt kind of lost when the group went to Yled in Book 2 of Blood Lords. What, they need chits to roam around because (half of them) are living? Uhhh, okay, that came out of left field. No explanation. Hard to roll with. What does Yled look like? I don't know! etc.
So I held off on continuing the AP until the Impossible Lands splat came out.
I haven't played Agents of Edgewatch but I imagine having the City of Absalom splat is almost mandatory in case the group goes off-script.
Certainly I would probably hold off on Sky King's Tomb until Highhelm comes out as well.
But something like Quest for the Frozen Flame, I don't think having the Saga Lands splat would affect things dramatically.
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The problem with setting an adventure in a faraway place without significant existing resources on "what that place is like" is that this works for a "outsider learning about a new place" story" and that's viable for something that doesn't have a direct real world analogue (like the Darklands). But for stories set in Tian Xia or Arcadia or the Mwangi expanse the default should be "you are a native of that place" unless the frame is something like the Ruby Phoenix where the whole premise is "they invite people from all over the world to this."
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PerseusRex, I dearly hope you’re right. An Own Voices approach with native-born PCs in the Golden Road is the one thing I want to see more than the darklands. More genies, please.
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A Golden Road revisit is overdue and would be a real treat. I’m not sure 2023 is the year it happens, but Rage of Elements and Enmity Cycle could certainly be signs. Bringing in MENA authors to leave their mark would be awesome, as would PF2 checking off almost all of its Garundi regions.
It feels like the safest bet for 2023’s big Lost Omens book… even if I’ve convinced myself it’ll be Tian Xia.
More fodder for the Tian Xia hypothesis : there is an interesting mention of Goka in the Secret Societies part of Dark Archive.
Feels like adventure / AP hook.
That recent interview with Luis Loza had him both clarify that Treasure Vault doesn't have much setting lore in it (the interviewer specifically asked about it in relation to Tian Xia), and he reiterated the messaging from his Reddit AMA - basically, that it'll be nice and obvious when they decide to do a Tian Xia book.
Curious if we'll get another Lost Omen's book announced with the next round of product threads. With Firebrands in March and Highhelm in June, I would have expected something in September, but I guess schedules were thrown off once again.
They've stated 4 LO and 3 Rulebooks a year is their goal, but given the chaos of the last year (indeed, just the last month) I wouldn't be surprised if they did 2 rulebooks again this year, and only 3 LO books.