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Small update on Imaginary Weapon - you still cannot use an amp and metamagic at the same time, so grabbing Reach Spell from an archetype is of dubious worth.
A lot of people seem to like this cantrip - and no shade on them - but it really doesn't look like a good option for the psychic. With low HP and terrible AC until level 15 (bar archetype stuff and mage armor), you are one of the squishiest classes in the game, so wading into melee is a terrible idea. It looks like a great option for the magus to grab, though.
What makes that the case? I was under the impression that casting an amped version is pretty much a free choice, not a specific free action or anything.
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It's a feature of the amp trait to make sure you don't have too much fun.
It's a feature of the amp trait to make sure you don't have too much fun.
I'm not sure if they realized that they have a math-fixer item for spell attacks that's just metamagic. So that's a little rough. Only relevant at Lv 10 and later for now, at least.
Oscillating Wave is a really, really fun path, especially with the entropic wheel mechanic. There's a bunch of cool stuff, but I love that little bit of design, more generally the stronger amp effects were absolutely the right direction for the class.
Now we will have a really efficient blaster spellcaster.
Fiery Body additional dice (now a + 1d10 due amp) and reducing the actions need to cast Produce Flame to 1-action + Unleash Psyche bonus damage + Shadow Signet can be very devastating.
My only doubt is if the char can still use Amps freely while unleashed or if is now always use a focus spell.
Oh! And now we have an official way to cast a cold damage Meteor Comet Swarm. Maybe now cast it as a Wish can be more acceptable to some people. kkkkk
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It's a feature of the amp trait to make sure you don't have too much fun.I'm not sure if they realized that they have a math-fixer item for spell attacks that's just metamagic. So that's a little rough. Only relevant at Lv 10 and later for now, at least.
That's the woes of trying to fix system wide problems with a clunky math fixing item I guess.
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Now we will have a really efficient blaster spellcaster.
Fiery Body additional dice (now a + 1d10 due amp) and reducing the actions need to cast Produce Flame to 1-action + Unleash Psyche bonus damage + Shadow Signet can be very devastating.
My only doubt is if the char can still use Amps freely while unleashed or if is now always use a focus spell.
Oh! And now we have an official way to cast a cold damage
MeteorComet Swarm. Maybe now cast it as a Wish can be more acceptable to some people. kkkkk
I don't have the PDF, but based on what others are saying you can't use Shadow Signet with an amped spell because it disallows metamagic unfortunately. Might still be worth it, but probably want to stick to save spells for Psychic generally (as usual without Shadow Signet).
The Rules Lawyer did a youtube video breakdown of the psychic and a mock encounter with his psychic "Carrie."
Now I can't wait to get my Dark Archive. Soon...
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Small update on Imaginary Weapon - you still cannot use an amp and metamagic at the same time, so grabbing Reach Spell from an archetype is of dubious worth.
A lot of people seem to like this cantrip - and no shade on them - but it really doesn't look like a good option for the psychic. With low HP and terrible AC until level 15 (bar archetype stuff and mage armor), you are one of the squishiest classes in the game, so wading into melee is a terrible idea. It looks like a great option for the magus to grab, though.
The cantrip was good entirely because of its scaling and multi-target acting like true strike to fix accuracy issues but with the added bonus of potentially hitting both times. It's still good for a magus who takes the archetype for it since they open with truestrike spellstrike anyway. For a psychic, it has little value unless you're throwing yourself into melee to act as an extra hp bar for your martials (not the most intuitive tactic but better than you'd think especially early game).
What am I missing? Why can't psychics use metamagic with their amps exactly?
What am I missing? Why can't psychics use metamagic with their amps exactly?
It's part of the amp sidebar, same as in the playtest.
What am I missing? Why can't psychics use metamagic with their amps exactly?I don't have the book, but from what I've heard is part of the Amp trait. Similar to how for witches it's in the hex trait that you can't cast multiple Hexes in the same turn.
I thought they scrapped that from the playtest. That's a big issue for attack roll based builds, honestly. I don't see how applying a metamagic to an amp breaks anything.
Oscillating Wave and Tangible Dream do not care much about this since they have good ways of dealing damage through saves (which already made more use of the unleash damage bonus) past level 10, but Distant Grasp is in shambles right now. Still playable, but definitely not as good as it could have been with Shadow Signet.
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My only doubt is if the char can still use Amps freely while unleashed or if is now always use a focus spell.
That part was cut entirely, they now just use focus points as normal. You still get and regenerate two from the start, though, and get the third point for free at level 5. Sadly, regenerating the third point is a high level feat, but hey, can't have everything ^^
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TBH, if you want to go in melee as a psychic it's not really the end of the world. AC isn't that hard to patch (and something a lot of casters try to do anyways) and being relatively SAD makes it easier to invest in Con, you end up not really being that much squishier (if at all) than something like a thaumaturge or inventor.
It's not really something I'd recommend doing, but it's not guaranteed suicide like some posts have suggested either.
TBH, if you want to go in melee as a psychic it's not really the end of the world. AC isn't that hard to patch (and something a lot of casters try to do anyways) and being relatively SAD makes it easier to invest in Con, you end up not really being that much squishier (if at all) than something like a thaumaturge or inventor.
It's not really something I'd recommend doing, but it's not guaranteed suicide like some posts have suggested either.
My choice of words was probably a little overly dramatic, true, except maybe on very low levels.
You could go into melee and even should seriously consider doing so for a brief time when the front line is flagging. I still stand by the opinion that focusing on melee is a bad idea in any serious encounter. With some internal support (mage armour or sentinel/rogue archetype) you aren't massively worse than Thaums and rogues, but even those already get chewed up really quick in any protracted contact.
The real problem for the psychic specifically is that your normal melee options cost two actions. So unless the enemy starts its turn next to you, you'll be ending your turn next to them, which is a very bad idea for anyone who isn't running champion level tankiness. Oscillating Wave and people that grabbed produce flame via Parallel Breakthrough can get around that with fiery body, but that's only coming online in very limited quantities starting at level 13.
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TBH, if you want to go in melee as a psychic it's not really the end of the world. AC isn't that hard to patch (and something a lot of casters try to do anyways) and being relatively SAD makes it easier to invest in Con, you end up not really being that much squishier (if at all) than something like a thaumaturge or inventor.
It's not really something I'd recommend doing, but it's not guaranteed suicide like some posts have suggested either.
Enemies will gap close distances all the time too. It is a good tool for when that happens.
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Interesting enough Aberrant Sorcerer however can use the imaginary weapon at distance if you really want it, Psychic don't want to pick the tentacles as it ruins their refocus though.
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Oscillating Wave and Tangible Dream do not care much about this since they have good ways of dealing damage through saves (which already made more use of the unleash damage bonus) past level 10, but Distant Grasp is in shambles right now. Still playable, but definitely not as good as it could have been with Shadow Signet.
I've put some thought into it, since Distant Grasp looks like my top pick atm, and I'm seeing a lot of warpriest in this conundrum. I'm certainly expecting a lot of heroism as the first pick for your 3rd level signature spell. That's what I'm going to do at least. Pairing that with Emotional Acceptance's 10th level psyche feat as a free-ish alternative seems like a good idea as well. Same with grabbing one of the save cantrips via Parallel Breakthrough, which is about the time when spell attack rolls first start to become a problem.
And if all else fails, vector screen. That cantrip plus amp just make me unreasonably happy.
Enemies will gap close distances all the time too. It is a good tool for when that happens.
Definitely, stuff happens. When the enemy is next to you at the start of your turn, dropping one of the melee cantrips and running should be good value.
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I have a potentially terrible idea for a psychic character, because it requires them to be a waking dream character and primarily make use of the imaginary weapon spell. Since that spell requires you to make a melee attacks, I wanted to see how well people could make a melee psychic? I'm thinking of the Sentinel dedication at level 2 (+lgith and medium armor proficiency) and toughness. . . . but does anyone have any other suggestions on how to not die immediately upon entering combat? The precice dicipline unconcious mind can give you +2 to AC while your psyche is unleashed . . .
Oscillating Wave and Tangible Dream do not care much about this since they have good ways of dealing damage through saves (which already made more use of the unleash damage bonus) past level 10, but Distant Grasp is in shambles right now. Still playable, but definitely not as good as it could have been with Shadow Signet.I've put some thought into it, since Distant Grasp looks like my top pick atm, and I'm seeing a lot of warpriest in this conundrum. I'm certainly expecting a lot of heroism as the first pick for your 3rd level signature spell. That's what I'm going to do at least. Pairing that with Emotional Acceptance's 10th level psyche feat as a free-ish alternative seems like a good idea as well. Same with grabbing one of the save cantrips via Parallel Breakthrough, which is about the time when spell attack rolls first start to become a problem.
And if all else fails, vector screen. That cantrip plus amp just make me unreasonably happy.
Enemies will gap close distances all the time too. It is a good tool for when that happens.Definitely, stuff happens. When the enemy is next to you at the start of your turn, dropping one of the melee cantrips and running should be good value.
Psi burst is easy access to save spell cantrip damage for any psychic while unleashed for one action. I know my distract grasp psychic would take that as the lvl 2 feat. Bonus points for being able to target reflex OR will bc of mind shift trait. That's 10d4+20 bludgeoning or mental damage depending on the save you target at lvl 20......again for one action. It's really nice.
Oscillating Wave and Tangible Dream do not care much about this since they have good ways of dealing damage through saves (which already made more use of the unleash damage bonus) past level 10, but Distant Grasp is in shambles right now. Still playable, but definitely not as good as it could have been with Shadow Signet.
Tangible Dream's level 6 cantrip has a duration, so no psyche damage boost, and its level 10 doesn't do any damage, so not sure why you think they're ok.
Psi burst is easy access to save spell cantrip damage for any psychic while unleashed for one action. I know my distract grasp psychic would take that as the lvl 2 feat. Bonus points for being able to target reflex OR will bc of mind shift trait. That's 10d4+20 bludgeoning or mental damage depending on the save you target at lvl 20......again for one action. It's really nice.
It's just 10d4. It's not a spell, it's a psyche action, so you can't add psyche damage. The psyche trait just lets it be used.
So it's a "free" not quite one action Magic Missile (no guaranteed damage, slightly less damage, basic save, two different damage type/save options). Similar to Glimpse Weakness cantrip amped for single action damage, but that does a bit more.
Oscillating Wave and Tangible Dream do not care much about this since they have good ways of dealing damage through saves (which already made more use of the unleash damage bonus) past level 10, but Distant Grasp is in shambles right now. Still playable, but definitely not as good as it could have been with Shadow Signet.Tangible Dream's level 6 cantrip has a duration, so no psyche damage boost, and its level 10 doesn't do any damage, so not sure why you think they're ok.
Psi burst is easy access to save spell cantrip damage for any psychic while unleashed for one action. I know my distract grasp psychic would take that as the lvl 2 feat. Bonus points for being able to target reflex OR will bc of mind shift trait. That's 10d4+20 bludgeoning or mental damage depending on the save you target at lvl 20......again for one action. It's really nice.
It's just 10d4. It's not a spell, it's a psyche action, so you can't add psyche damage. The psyche trait just lets it be used.
So it's a "free" not quite one action Magic Missile (no guaranteed damage, slightly less damage, basic save, two different damage type/save options). Similar to Glimpse Weakness cantrip amped for single action damage, but that does a bit more.
Ahhh, that's the catch. Still, I think it's a good pick for distant grasp to follow up a dancing blade strike or TP. Follow up question: will heroism buff my spell attack rolls for TP and dancing blade?
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Tangible Dream's level 6 cantrip has a duration, so no psyche damage boost, and its level 10 doesn't do any damage, so not sure why you think they're ok.
Oscillating Wave and Tangible Dream do not care much about this since they have good ways of dealing damage through saves (which already made more use of the unleash damage bonus) past level 10, but Distant Grasp is in shambles right now. Still playable, but definitely not as good as it could have been with Shadow Signet.
Regular Astral Rain does not have a duration, only the amped version does. Cantrip Astral Rain + Sustained Amped Astral Rain while Unleashing is a good turn for no daily resources expended (level 13+ oscilating wave is king, though. Fiery Body is nasty on this class).
Follow up question: will heroism buff my spell attack rolls for TP and dancing blade?
Yes to both. Spell attack rolls are attack rolls.
Regular Astral Rain does not have a duration, only the amped version does.
It's not obviously instantaneous, it keeps damaging things for a full round that enter the square. It doesn't seem to have an actual duration line, so check with your GM.
Also sad to find that Daze for some reason has a 1 round duration listed in the CRB, I guess because of the crit fail only stun effect? The amp even more explicity has not immediate effects, so again, probably can't be used with psyche damage boost despite common sense. Check with your GM.
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By that reading a critical Produce Flame or an amped Ray of Frost also have a duration due to the persistent damage and the temporal health so you should also check with your GM.
Astral Rain does not list a duration, something every spell with an actual duration lists on its own separate entry. It definitely applies Unleash damage.
You’re right none of those can be psyche boosted either. Wait for errata I guess.
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By that reading a critical Produce Flame or an amped Ray of Frost also have a duration due to the persistent damage and the temporal health so you should also check with your GM.
Astral Rain does not list a duration, something every spell with an actual duration lists on its own separate entry. It definitely applies Unleash damage.
I don’t think crit produce flame has a duration, it just applies the condition to the target ‘persistent X fire damage”. For example you can’t dispel magic the produce flame’s persistent damage.
Honestly i am disappointed.
I always liked psionics in D&D, since they provided proper feeling of being something really different from regular spellcasters.
But i have yet to see of repeating success since 3.5e
In PF2e in particular, it's just spellcaster with very slight flavor of psionics.
I know it wouldn't be nearly as easy to balance going from regular spellslots to classic psionic points. But without those it... well, it's just hardly feels like psionics at all.
Not mentioning that it also should not use any of magic traditions. But instead having it's own psionic (psychic, whatever) list of powers (and yes, should not be even called spells).
Not mentioning that it's just as single class.
Psionics surely deserve at least 4 dedicated classes on their own.
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Honestly i am disappointed.
I always liked psionics in D&D, since they provided proper feeling of being something really different from regular spellcasters.
But i have yet to see of repeating success since 3.5eIn PF2e in particular, it's just spellcaster with very slight flavor of psionics.
I know it wouldn't be nearly as easy to balance going from regular spellslots to classic psionic points. But without those it... well, it's just hardly feels like psionics at all.
Not mentioning that it also should not use any of magic traditions. But instead having it's own psionic (psychic, whatever) list of powers (and yes, should not be even called spells).Not mentioning that it's just as single class.
Psionics surely deserve at least 4 dedicated classes on their own.
DnD psionics do not exist on Golarion or in pathfinder. They're not going to make a new spellcaster class (and yes, psionic classes were functionally casters) that arbitrarily isn't able to use all the spells they've already printed in the game. Reprinting all the spells but with slightly different names to be used for just six classes or however many there were in 3.5 was a bad use of page space, and it would be an even worse use of page space here given they're not printing a new splat every month to fill that roster.
Psychic magic and psionics are the same thing: it's magic that comes from your brain. There's no good reason to make the psychic less approachable just to repeat a weird design decision from a 20 year old game for something that, with the lore stuff that exists in Golarion, does not exist.
DnD psionics do not exist on Golarion or in pathfinder. They're not going to make a new spellcaster class (and yes, psionic classes were functionally casters) that arbitrarily isn't able to use all the spells they've already printed in the game. Reprinting all the spells but with slightly different names to be used for just six classes or however many there were in 3.5 was a bad use of page space, and it would be an even worse use of page space here given they're not printing a new splat every month to fill that roster.Psychic magic and psionics are the same thing: it's magic that comes from your brain. There's no good reason to make the psychic less approachable just to repeat a weird design decision from a 20 year old game for something that, with the lore stuff that exists in Golarion, does not exist.
It doesn't matter really. Paizo still clearly uses "classic" psionics vibes: Power of own mind, over drawing cosmic powers (spellcasters). Not relying on verbal, somatic and material components (kinda still is on somatic, but that's fine). And hundreds of other features very clearly inspired by classic 3.5 psionics lore.
And as of "psychic magic". Even in 3.5 general rule stated "magic affects psionics, and psionics affects magic". So not much difference here.Still it's just doesn't feels like something unique on it's own.
IMO it should have it's own system on power manifestation. Doesn't even need to be exactly like in 3.5 (and yes, there certainly room for improvement from how it was in 3.5), but not related to "core spellcasting".
And again not just "occult spells, but bit more different from how bard, sorcerer or which would cast it". But actually it's own list of powers. All unique and all build around idea of psionics lore and versatility of psionics.
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That would take up a huge amount of book space to reprint several dozen spells just to get "Telepathy, but with a new name". Again, what would overcomplicating things by adding a new tacked-on subsystem of pseudospells provide to the game? The game already has a functional spellcasting system. Is a new player supposed to go, oh boy I can't wait to play a psychic, then be told "sorry, this caster isn't allowed to use any of the old spells ever printed"?
That would take up a huge amount of book space to reprint several dozen spells
In needs full size supplement on it's own.
And no, again not reprinting old spells but makes them psionics power (tbh biggest downside of 3.5. Only about 1/3 power were truly unique, the rest was just lazily copy-pasted). But all powers should be completely queue from existing spells.Would it take more effort? Absolutely.
But otherwise i see no reason even implementing "psionics".
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But otherwise i see no reason even implementing "psionics".
I mean you're the only one talking about that, so... agreed?
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I don't think Paizo is interested in adding more kinds of magic that aren't tied to the 4 existing traditions (and 4 essences). There's even places they can go for a new tradition (like one that uses opposing essences together), but the fact that there's only 4 spell lists and all spellcasters work the same way is a benefit of the system. Adding point-based casters in parallel with slot based casters is basically just complexity that doesn't add depth.
If there's going to be psionics for Pathfinder 2e, that's a third party product.
I don't think Paizo is interested in adding more kinds of magic that aren't tied to the 4 existing traditions (and 4 essences). There's even places they can go for a new tradition (like one that uses opposing essences together), but the fact that there's only 4 spell lists and all spellcasters work the same way is a benefit of the system. Adding point-based casters in parallel with slot based casters is basically just complexity that doesn't add depth.
If there's going to be psionics for Pathfinder 2e, that's a third party product.
Well, funny you mentioned it. 3rd party for Psionics Unleashed for 1e was good, but... out of place.
It's really how it should be done for 3.5 They went far enough to actually made unique non-repeating powers. But it didn't followed main course set for PF1e, on how Paizo tried both balance out 3.5, and differentiate it from 3.5Not sure if it can be done well for 2e, if not made by Paizo themselves.
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It doesn't matter really. Paizo still clearly uses "classic" psionics vibes: Power of own mind, over drawing cosmic powers (spellcasters). Not relying on verbal, somatic and material components (kinda still is on somatic, but that's fine). And hundreds of other features very clearly inspired by classic 3.5 psionics lore.
DnD psionics do not exist on Golarion or in pathfinder. They're not going to make a new spellcaster class (and yes, psionic classes were functionally casters) that arbitrarily isn't able to use all the spells they've already printed in the game. Reprinting all the spells but with slightly different names to be used for just six classes or however many there were in 3.5 was a bad use of page space, and it would be an even worse use of page space here given they're not printing a new splat every month to fill that roster.Psychic magic and psionics are the same thing: it's magic that comes from your brain. There's no good reason to make the psychic less approachable just to repeat a weird design decision from a 20 year old game for something that, with the lore stuff that exists in Golarion, does not exist.
I think you mean standard psychic lore from various movies/comic books. WotC had to get their ideas from somewhere, and Paizo seems to have picked similar, and different sources from WotC, and not WotC themselves. And psionics, as a system (though I never actually touched 3.5) seemed like complexity for the sake of being complicated, with nothing of real value added except for people who hate Vancian casting. Would I like a points based caster in some way? Sure; Should it be explicitly bound to psychic casting for the sake of call-backs? FRICK NO!
Paizo is their own company, let them make their own legacy instead of grasping at the coattails of WotC
I think you mean standard psychic lore from various movies/comic books. WotC had to get their ideas from somewhere
Well, if we gonna dig. First it appeared in Darksun setting for AD&D. But latter were adopted in pretty much all settings.
As of psionics overall? Yeah. X-men, WH40k, and many other had those. Yet it wasn't just plainly copy-pasted in D&D, but rather evolved as something on it's own. Own lore, own rules, own "flavor".And... well, reading psychic class abilities, feats, focus spells etc. Clearly tells Paizo still draws inspiration from that.
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Damn, Living Vessel, despite being extremely flavourful (*salivates over the artwork*), is very melee/martial-centric, so it looks like a bust for the psychic.
Despite that minor setback, I really love how pretty much everything in this book has some great RP/character flavouring hooks built in. Just the thought components from each subconscious mind alone make such a difference.
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IMO I think that Paizo simply doesn't want to add more mechanics to the game. The main idea of focus spells was created to cover anything that's not related to spellslots in the classic way.
Create a new system exclusive for psychic means create a new set of rules and determine how they will interact and balance with other game systems. It's a lot of work and increases the "area" for misinterpretations and exploits.
For me the Psychic is already very good.
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I think you mean standard psychic lore from various movies/comic books. WotC had to get their ideas from somewhereWell, if we gonna dig. First it appeared in Darksun setting for AD&D. But latter were adopted in pretty much all settings.
As of psionics overall? Yeah. X-men, WH40k, and many other had those. Yet it wasn't just plainly copy-pasted in D&D, but rather evolved as something on it's own. Own lore, own rules, own "flavor".
And... well, reading psychic class abilities, feats, focus spells etc. Clearly tells Paizo still draws inspiration from that.
Yet the point-based casting psionics that you're arguing for is a very 3.5 WotC-made thing.
Reject the 3.5 psionics points based parvenu, return to AD&D tradition.
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Some people on reddit (and probably a few way back on this site) pointed out something interesting. Daze has a duration and therefore wouldn't qualify for the bonus damage from Unleash Psyche. But that duration literally doesn't do anything, so just a heads up, looks like the errata missed a couple of spots ^^
The Astral Rain and Forbidden Thought questions were more interesting to me in that post.
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Oscillating Wave note - while your unique psi surface cantrip, Thermal Stasis, may seem boring and niche, note that by casting it for one action it flips your fire/cold back again.
So you can constantly spam fire spells against something weak to it or immune to cold as long as you pay the action tax with Thermal Stasis. And if it's weak/immune it's often doing that type of damage anyway, so you'll benefit from the defense that Thermal Stasis provides.
I choose not to believe that you have to pick only one of fire/cold since the base spell gives both. Just say that since it gives both, you flip them to give both in a different aesthetic order with no mechanical change. "Behold, my blue then red shield is now red then blue!"