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It's pretty much the strongest non-core class,
with decent damage and great action economy courtesy of Act Together.

Optimization wise you only need the Attack of Opportunity and the Weighty Impact leaving you pretty free to pick anything else with the other 8 feat slots.


Some form of magic healing would do wonders, what about Sniper Duo Summoner? Pick either Divine or Primal Eidolon for Heal, makes the Eidolon melee then choose an ally to be the spotter.


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They are cool, not my type of flavor though and I have a few problems with them.

Thaumaturge I have problems with the hand economy, specially with the passive ones and the balance between implements is not really something to write home about, exist Tome that gives great skill flexibility the intensify of it is great and you don't even have to hold it for the best part of it... then lantern exist in the other axis, basically the Rogue lvl 1 feat, could at least make the light of it only be visible to you or something like that so at least you could do some unique shenanigans.

Psychic is mainly the "unamped" form of the spells with like 3 exceptions, as they are not good without the focus point.


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What elemental stuff you think that the class should have? We have sending creatures into the air with flinging updraft, surf around the field with water dance, create a stone construct and have a jet move on fire, so what other unconventional or non-direct damage impulses you would like?

A few of mine:

- A fire reaction to put a barrier of fire around you, kinda like the water one but fire, hurting the attacker.

- Still on fire reaction, a smoke reaction making you concealed or hidden from the triggering attack.

- A hole earth impulse, where the heck are my holes or fissures?


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Captain Morgan wrote:
They will definitely need some more incentive for going mono element with that spread.

Dedicated gates could have like a die size higher in their blasts, so Water/Earth d10, Fire d8 and Air d6, kinda like a Barbarian with like giant Instinct, but instead of clumsy you are being limited to a single element.


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It ends up being.

Air, horrible blast but actually good impulses, the flinging updraft and fly impulses are great.

Earth, good blast but meh early impulses, the best thing here is the overpowered 2 action wall of stone.

Fire, decent blast, also meh early impulses, horrid ignition is pretty great however.

Water, good blast, decent impulses and really good auras, get control as early as lvl 6 with wall of water (very easy to put in a way that an enemy have to stride + swim + stride to reach to you), the lvl 18 moon impulse have an amazing name but it does suck though.


Incapacitation does not really matter in solar detonation though, you are using it when going against like 3 enemies, they will pretty much be your lvl or lower.


Most creatures are not trained in acrobatics, so they roll raw Dex.

I would not say that is OP, but it's a very strong option.


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If a summoner keeps their big ass Eidolon out to avoid the 3 actions to manifest it, I can't see why not you can't have your arm on fire.


Yeah the wall of stone is way too good, all the other walls in the class are 3 actions and overflow, except that one for some reason, and it's already considered the best wall in the game on the spell form.

Flinging Updraft becomes basically a better spell lvl 9 collective transposition at a character lvl 10, pretty fun feat though.


It's a mix, have a lot of bad ones, but also have a lot of good ones.

I had players that basically made the entire build around a single item, or abusing a combination of them.

Per example using a flame Oracle with the Aura and retaliation potion of fire, every time it was hit the enemy the potion would retaliate and the aura would make them give persistent damage. It was a Tiefling and the player flavored it as a hellfire.

Had a frightened based party, that the one that usually gave the condition was a fighter with a Fear Gem and he herded a ton of them.

Greater Invisibility rune is really good, 1 action Invisibility, making anything that targets you need to do a DC11 flat check, being better than raising a shield a lot of times.


Rage of the elements was described as being similar to the Book of the Dead.

And Secrets of Magic is not really an Arcane book, it does not favor arcane at all, it's a magic book and it basically have all traditions on it.


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Book of the Dead was divine based and a big book.


Guntermench wrote:
Flowing Kinetics comes 10 levels too late.

Making Flowing Kinetics a default part at lvl 1 of the class would actually be interesting, instead of making Gather element have a gunslinger reload, it would move the action efficiency to the impulses, would be a mechanically different way to achieve the same result.


CON is one of the best stats of the game and one that you would increase anyways regardless of class...

But anyway, I guess that could the area of concern of Adapt Element that could have more out of combat utility, making it emulate some cantrips or skills actions that makes thematic sense.

Like instead of Whisper of the wind being a feat, could just be a default option of Adapt Element of Air, a wood adapt element could have some minor healing to emulate treat wounds and so on.


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I mean, the same could be said about Thaumaturge having a familiar, it's just a thematic thing for the class to have.


Yeah a few more would be nice, reaction ones too as we only have 1 water and 1 air one.

Like a few ones that would be cool.

- An 1 action elemental blast with overflow that makes it a "power attack" adding an extra die of damage.

- An 1 action air one to push the target around at distance. Don't need overflow on this one but counts to your MAP.

- A fire reaction where you make smoke before being attacked, so the attacker have to the flat check to hit you in that attack.

- An earth one action overflow to make a single enemy immobilized at distance, by making their feet being caught by the earth.

And etc.


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shroudb wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I strongly disagree with the premise that "both are once per fight".

Having played an Inventor for up to mid levels, having to make the choice "do I do my single blast OR do I keep my single heal" is world's apart from simply spending an action to get it back.

I can tell you 100% that if I had the option to spend 1 action to repeat my Unstable actions I would have used it all the time.

So really, the difference is:
One class has a single ability per fight but a damage boost on strikes.
Other class can do multiple abilities per fight but no damage boost.

Right, but that is why the action cost of overflows is so high. A 2+1 action unstable would not only be stronger than a 3+1, but would lead to reptitive turns. For both classes you want to pick the moment to use your big boom because you can't just do it again next round.

Not doing all the time due to action economy is vastly different from "can't do it at all".

There is an action cost tax, yes, but that's not comparable at all to a hard stop.

Especially if the hard stop is sharing the cooldown between damage and healing.

Yeah pretty much, if you use ubstable on Searing Restoration, you can't use on megavolt later, if you use on megavolt can't use on explosive leap and so on.

Limits even how players will select the feats as you don't want too many unstable to compete with one another for your single unstable use.


The elements already looks like have some preferred style on them though.

With air having a lot of movement options, earth defensive, fire damage (the current impulses just suck at it) and water being the versatile one.


Yup, I did mention that Inventor had a similar chassis as the Kineticist.

Also remember that if you use an unstable action, prevents the use of another one, like if you use it on megavolt you can't use it now on Searing Restoration, so for an Inventor that is a higher opportunity cost.


YuriP wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

HP as a resource in RPGs only work if healing is hard and have to be overly cautious with it.

In PF2 where you blink and is at full HP does not really work.

I repeat the same question? What's the big difference in recover from focus point and HP?

The answer is you need someone with a healing spell or a battle medicine or a potion to heal you! So basically you are transferring the cost to other. During encounters usually this comes from other party member (favor some good party integration and strategies).
Out of combat your HP can be recovered just like any focus point. If someone has Medicine or some healing focus spell.

OK, due the number being higher you can have more HP uses than focus but yet this also a risk. How much you use more closer to a knock out you are.

And about healing is hard, you already played some PC JRPG/MMORPG with classes able to use HP as source? These games usually have strong healers that can heal these characters but heal a character costs someone action (do you notice the similarity?) to heal and also increase the risk to char down (this time costing a ress).

So the fact of being able to use the HP as cost in the end will probably be paid as someone action and other resource later. So don't treat HP as a lesser power source or a thing with "no real consequences" it's the opposite it's a complex, manageable, and interesting resource.

Ability to recover in battle first and foremost, the closest Strain Mind from Psychic per example is once per hour.

And yes played a lot of games with HP as a resource... and now what most of those classes have in common? They usually don't want to be healed because of passives or an ability that makes them at their strongest at 1 HP and the abilities takes like 50% or 90% of their HP so they are actually in range to use the abilites that are actually worth using in the very low hp range. Dark Knight from Bravely Default, Hexer and Yggdroid from Etrian Odyssey and so on.


Oh indeed dedicated needs something more, like higher damage die in their blast or something like that.

Xenocrat wrote:
Kyrone wrote:


The one that made an Universal Gate lvl 8 said that didn't really feel universal when he basically only had one impulse of each element and when they add the wood and metal he will be even be missing one or two at that point.
I don't assume that the final class will have Universal Gate provide access to all six elements. I've seen suggestions that you might get either the four standard ones (as in the playtest) or the traditional Chinese five (lose air, gain metal and wood).

Wait, would not that make the chinese five better?


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HP as a resource in RPGs only work if healing is hard and have to be overly cautious with it.

In PF2 where you blink and is at full HP does not really work.


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My players and I have been creating characters for the one-shot sessions that we are making (we already played a lvl 3 one even), and one of the common complaints was that they didn't had enough feats to pick many impulses.

The one that made an Universal Gate lvl 8 said that didn't really feel universal when he basically only had one impulse of each element and when they add the wood and metal he will be even be missing one or two at that point.

A few more free impulses is what a few of them said that would help a lot.

I asked what else would help, and they said that maybe a lvl 1 feature or feat that is an impulse in area that just take the element damage of what you have gathered would at least be something to help.


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People ask for that in every playtest, like the Summoner, Magus and Inventor one.


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Depends on lvl actually, 10 or lower creatures of lvl +3/4 are scary, but after lvl 10 what I fear more is actually encounter with multiple creatures, as it's very easy to control the higher lvl ones.


Rogue damage is about a Champion with a greatsword, so on Kineticist that is around 2 extra damage per weapon dice on a strike with the current blasts.


Kekkres wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

I think that the class to compare would be actually Inventor.

Have AoE options on unstable like Explosion and Megavolt, though those are basically once per battle.

The main stat is not an attack one, though Con main start is miles better than intelligence or charisma as it's a save stat.

So basically what is missing is some kinda of overdrive to increase damage of Kineticist strikes.

i mean, inventor at least gets damage out of int
Quote:
So basically what is missing is some kinda of overdrive to increase damage of Kineticist strikes.


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I think that the class to compare would be actually Inventor.

Have AoE options on unstable like Explosion and Megavolt, though those are basically once per battle.

The main stat is not an attack one, though Con main start is miles better than intelligence or charisma as it's a save stat.

So basically what is missing is some kinda of overdrive to increase damage of Kineticist strikes.


Xenocrat wrote:


The difficult terrain, healing(+condition removal/temp HP/whatever), movement, and wall/otehr control are very good.

Flinging Updraft is revolting at 10th level, just toss your entire party and some enemies into a new configuration. It's not even overflow.

At 8th level an air kineticst can do 10 minutes of flight with sustained invisibility while they fly up to see what's going on in the local zip code.

Stepping Stones lets you erase some difficult terrain or make it quick to get over a wall, building, or low cliff with normal movement speed.

Igneogenesis is instant cover, an obstacle for a large/huge creature who has to squeeze around it, or total blockage of a 5' corridor.

Fire...is there. You can do some stuff for yourself, although other than Burning Jet for mobility I don't really know what.

Water Dance can move an ally without requiring a reaction from them.

Slippery Sleet makes everyone in a 20' burst flatfooted for a turn and prone if the fail a balance DC of 15. Lots of creatures don't have acrobatics, so.

They get wall of water and wall of ice. And aqueous orb.

Ok, I don't care for the fog and glacial prison with both overflow and incapacitation probably isn't worth it. But the rest is great.

I will try to help fire... somehow...

uhhhh

Solar Detonation causes mass blind, even casters don't have mass blind until they are like lvl 13 with Sunburst. It's incapacitation, but if you want mass blind then you are fighting at max creatures of your lvl anyway.


I don't think that fighters can even pick the blasts for better proficiency as they are not in any weapon group.


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Might be way too similar to psychic mechanically, but like, making and balancing the impulses around being without overflow by default but you can choose to overflow to "amp" it for a greater effect.

Could even apply to the default Elemental Blast per example where it turns into a "Power Attack".


If it would have to happen it would already with the alchemist though, that have expert attacks.


Yeah by the text it does sounds to like a Kineticist version of Druid Wildfire and be actually like 5 feet radius instead of diameter.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the overflow feats are designed to not be too powerful in case you spam them, hypothetically you could do tremor every turn and other classes don't get stuff like that.

But I think in practice the Kineticist's spamming of abilities is mitigated by the sheer quantity of things you want to turn on in combat that might also require sustaining that eat up your actions preventing 2-3 action impulses.

Yeah, when playing it really feels like you want to combine to the default Elemental blast with the other impulses, I think that just giving or making something that makes combining them feel and flow more naturally would help a lot.


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Martialmasters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
If you want at will abilities, they're going to be balanced as at will abilities. Something has to give. Do you want to get rid of at will abilities or do you want to accept low damage?
an ability has to be worth using in the first place no matter how many times you can use it, the average combat will give you 9-15 actions, using 3 of those actions to do negligable damage is not a worthwile use of anyones time unless you have a ton of enemies crammed together
I'm really starting to think replacing overflow with just a limited times per day in some fashion is the way to go here more power with largely no drawback given how people often play.

Yeah at this point it would be better to give a resource like focus points and make that it can refocus more from the start.


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I did test in the first day in a lvl 3 one-shot, it does indeed feel better, played a dedicated water one.

Being able to do blast + tidal hands and next turn gather + blast twice was fine, and later that build could have 2 actions blasts to out in there like the one that strikes 5 creatures. I even managed water dance allies out of enemies range too and that was a cool as heck utility in battle

Gather element could have a small bonus on it depending of the element like a small circumstance bonus to AC if earth and so on, but it was not as bad as I thought would be.

Power wise impulses could indeed use a boost, but should be better than a cantrip but worse than inventor unstable actions per example.


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Celestial Palisade 3 actions Overflow (Wall of wind)

Lvl 8, so 3 lvls after casters have access to it

Rock Rampart 2 actions (Wall of Stone)

Lvl 12, so 3 lvls after casters have access to it... but why the heck it's less actions and no overflow? That does not look very fair, it's already the best wall, make it 3 actions and overflow as well.

Architect of Flame 3 actions Overflow (Wall of fire)

Lvl 12, 5 lvls after casters have access to it... so it should have been lvl 10 to keep with the 3 lvls pattern.

Barrier of Boreal Frost 3 actions Overflow (Wall of Ice)

Lvl 14, 5 lvls after casters have access to it... so it should have been lvl 12 to keep with the 3 lvls pattern.


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Interesting enough Universal Gate names the four elements instead of saying ALL or something similar, makes me wonder if it will exclude wood and metal and make it exclusive to dual and dedicated.


Yeah that's it in the title, a feature or a feat that let me at least do that.

Forcing the gate to the limit and see the world on fire and myself on the middle of it.


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While I think that everyone can agree that it needs damage, nobody really agrees with how much (and it's not really our job, that is the designers to figure).

My balance point per example would be a class feature increasing damage that uses Constitution in some way for the blast and have the impulses be somewhat weaker than unstable actions (as they are once per battle while impulses don't have limit).


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The class to compare this one is Inventor actually, as it's a somewhat similar chassis.

So Kineticist would need a damage booster like Overdrive on the blasts.

Unstable is core to the inventor but only once per battle effectively, so impulses would need to be weaker than them as they are infinite uses.

To make Gather Element feel less action taxy could have a bonus in the turn that you use it depending of the element, like Fire doing more damage, earth gaining a bonus in AC and so on.


RexAliquid wrote:
Would you be happy with a feat that gave you the drained condition for an Amp-like power-up to your blast?

I would actually, even something small like a Strain Mind ability from psychic, but you lose hit points instead on losing your element in overflow would do.


Could indeed have something like a free impulse every 4 lvls (1,5,9,13,17), remove the retraining daily part of the lvl 9 and 15 features for the dedicated and dual gate and let it be exclusive of the universal one.


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You can gather outside of battle as well, it's basically a weapon that you have draw it before battle.


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Yeah I am putting Burn on the table, someone had to.

I like the impulses, their powers are good for being at will options, but we really could use a resource mechanic to give them a little more spice like an amp, be it focus points, burn, oracle like curse or whatever.


Rogues do low damage, their sneak attack only makes their usual d6 weapon do like d12s.

What makes them able to do a lot of damage is actually the Backstab feat, specially when combined with preparation and even then you need a martial ally that likes to Strike often and accurate like Ranger or Fighter to trigger your backstabs.


Gaulin wrote:
Was it stated in the panel that it would have beastiary of some sort? So far I've only heard about plane write ups and kineticist

Yup, it will have a Bestiary in there, it was said that the book will be like the Book of the Dead.


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The other write up that was made today.

Link here

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

The best part is i clicked into this thread like "ooh there was more info dropped about the kineticist after the keynote?"

But yeah, I'm honestly stoked to see the playtest mechanics, and eventually having Wood Kineticists in the mix, Hashirama Senju style.

Thanks for making the write ups, they are really helpful.


Something like Inventor unstable? That is focus points but not really? Like every time that you use lose max hit points equal your level then after a 10 minutes rest returns to normal.

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