Premature discussion about the Psychic


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Captivator is looking particularly nice if you want to double down on enchantment and illusion spells, especially if you have a consistent sustain you use in those schools. I'd have to rewatch but there might be some cantrips to keep that consistent for certain conscious minds. But quite a few are evocation based.


Gisher wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Yeah, being able to poach up to 3 cantrips feels a bit wrong.

I'm not seeing three.

• The dedication gets you one psi cantrip at level 2.
• Psi Development get you a second psi cantrip at level 6.

That's two.

If you count taking Cantrip Expansion for regular cantrips, that's four.

Either way I don't see where you get three.

Parallel Breakthrough at 12.
Xethik wrote:
Captivator is looking particularly nice if you want to double down on enchantment and illusion spells, especially if you have a consistent sustain you use in those schools. I'd have to rewatch but there might be some cantrips to keep that consistent for certain conscious minds. But quite a few are evocation based.

Captivator is one of the strongest late game Dedications for any CHA caster so it will be the same for Psychic. Even INT Psychics can get the dedication and still get the full spellcasting DC with that level 1 feat for innate cantrips.


Given the Psychic's heavy use of focus points, picking up a familiar for the Familiar Focus master ability is something to consider. Being able to restore 1 focus point even in the middle of a battle could be a huge benefit.

Gisher's Guide to Acquiring Familiars

Witch MC giving you a familiar as well as more Int-based spells is looking very appealing to me for an Int-based Psychic.


Karmagator wrote:
On first viewing of the, the offensive feats and amps in particular aren't great.

They don't seem to have changed since the playtest, when they were originally balanced for the assumption of five amps per combat.

Gisher wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Yeah, being able to poach up to 3 cantrips feels a bit wrong.

I'm not seeing three.

• The dedication gets you one psi cantrip at level 2.
• Psi Development get you a second psi cantrip at level 6.

That's two.

If you count taking Cantrip Expansion for regular cantrips, that's four.

Either way I don't see where you get three.

You take the 6th level psychic feat that lets you take a feat from a different conscious mind. For you it's a 12th level feat via MC.


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roquepo wrote:
Gisher wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Yeah, being able to poach up to 3 cantrips feels a bit wrong.

I'm not seeing three.

• The dedication gets you one psi cantrip at level 2.
• Psi Development get you a second psi cantrip at level 6.

That's two.

If you count taking Cantrip Expansion for regular cantrips, that's four.

Either way I don't see where you get three.

Parallel Breakthrough at 12.

Ooooo! I missed that!

But the cost is one class feat for each psi cantrip. That's the usual cost per focus spell (which psi cantrips kind of are) and twice as expensive as usual for regular cantrips which typically come two for a class feat. Plus you give up a "breadth" feat with that MC. That seems fairly balanced to me.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
On first viewing of the, the offensive feats and amps in particular aren't great.
They don't seem to have changed since the playtest, when they were originally balanced for the assumption of five amps per combat.
These get quite better when you consider that at minimum you can get 2 cantrips/focus spells per fight that add double their level to damage. If you are a level 13+ Oscillating Wave Psychic and get a cantrip that works with saves you can cast Fiery Body, then unleash and use a 1 action Ray of Frost/Produce Flame and a save cantrip with both having the extra damage from unleash. Thats a huge amount of damage for just a single spell slot.
Gisher wrote:
Quote:
Stuff

Ooooo! I missed that!

But the cost is one class feat for each psi cantrip. That's the usual cost per focus spell (which psi cantrips kind of are) and twice as expensive as usual for regular cantrips which typically come two for a class feat. Plus you give up a "breadth" feat with that MC. That seems fairly balanced to me.

You get both a cantrip that is better than usual and a focus spell. That's very, very good (expending a level 12 feat for that, not so much, but it is still there as an option).


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Some of them.
Warp Space is unchanged
Inertial Barrier is unchanged.
Homing Beacon (formerly Psychic Beacon) is unchanged.

Shatter Space is much better though (from 1d6/2 spell levels in a 5 foot emanation to up to 1d6/level, up to 20 feet, and with a critfail effect).

Mental Balm went from +1 to +2 on saves.

I do feel like the psychic is going to have the problem people were highlighting when they first said they were killing off free amps. You have a lot of activities that demand focus points and not a lot of focus points to go around. I'm not sure where I'm going to find the time or energy to use some of these abilities, which makes spending feats on them a hard sell, imo.

The class is also probably going to feel really bad in any scenario where you can't refocus between combats.


roquepo wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wonder if lacking Effortless Concentration is a flavor thing, since it says "You maintain a spell with hardly a thought" but absolutely everything the Psychic does is with a thought and only a thought. Since your whole shtick is that you turn your thoughts into power.

If any class has to be good at something that normally requires a thought, I would say that that would be Psychic.

Even if that's the case, I don't see why they don't have their own version of it as they have their own version of Counterspell (Something like having the feat at level 14 but limiting it to Psychic cantrips, Amped cantrips and the additional spells from your concious mind). Sustaining seems pretty integral for a lot of possible Psychic builds. Hardly a dealbreaker to me that they don't have it, I just find it really weird.

But the 1e Psychic Casters were the people who would occasionally need to spend a (move) action to concentrate to cast a spell with a Thought Component (else the DC to concentrate was 10 more) and this was the trade off with not needing somatic components (so you could cast spells while completely immobilized).


PossibleCabbage wrote:
roquepo wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wonder if lacking Effortless Concentration is a flavor thing, since it says "You maintain a spell with hardly a thought" but absolutely everything the Psychic does is with a thought and only a thought. Since your whole shtick is that you turn your thoughts into power.

If any class has to be good at something that normally requires a thought, I would say that that would be Psychic.

Even if that's the case, I don't see why they don't have their own version of it as they have their own version of Counterspell (Something like having the feat at level 14 but limiting it to Psychic cantrips, Amped cantrips and the additional spells from your concious mind). Sustaining seems pretty integral for a lot of possible Psychic builds. Hardly a dealbreaker to me that they don't have it, I just find it really weird.

But the 1e Psychic Casters were the people who would occasionally need to spend a (move) action to concentrate to cast a spell with a Thought Component (else the DC to concentrate was 10 more) and this was the trade off with not needing somatic components (so you could cast spells while completely immobilized).

I was talking about class identity (what you think when you hear about a psychic), not about 1e legacy.

I don't think 1e has been much of a factor when designing 2e classes beyond "this is what people liked about our previous iteration". Don't think having to spend a move action counts for that.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

the playtest psychic had 'free' sustain as an Unleash effect, rather than effortless concentration.

They took out the unleash effects but didn't add an alternative back. I'm not convinced there was any big strategy here, which casters get which caster feats has always felt a little arbitrary.


Is the psyche trait something that can only be used when unleashed? If so, psi burst is still good just not as spamable as I thought.


I get why clerics don't get it, perma bless/bane is their Effortless Concentration (a very bad Effortless Concentration).

But agree, Oracle and Psychic not getting it feels a bit arbitrary.


Karmagator wrote:

The Rules Lawyer just posted his full overview of the Psychic.

The class features alone take up more pages than any CRB class in its entirety XD

Anyone know if the overview has been translated into a non-video format? Like on reddit or something? I don't like to wade through videos on the best of times but this is 1 1/2 hrs long... :(


graystone wrote:
Karmagator wrote:

The Rules Lawyer just posted his full overview of the Psychic.

The class features alone take up more pages than any CRB class in its entirety XD

Anyone know if the overview has been translated into a non-video format? Like on reddit or something? I don't like to wade through videos on the best of times but this is 1 1/2 hrs long... :(

30 minutes of it is a combat demonstration. The video is actually pretty compact, there is just a lot to cover.

Last time I checked, there weren't any written post over Reddit. Maybe in a few hours.


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roquepo wrote:
30 minutes of it is a combat demonstration. The video is actually pretty compact, there is just a lot to cover.

Even at 1 hr, it's a bit much for me: info given over video just... drags on and on for me as I know if I was reading it that hr video would be 10 min reading at most. Add to that that it's not convenient to listen to a video at the moment while it's not an issue to read something. I did quickly skim through the video and looked at the visual presentations of the rules but I was curious if the talky parts had something I missed.

roquepo wrote:
Last time I checked, there weren't any written post over Reddit. Maybe in a few hours.

Yeah, I check again latter. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss it. Thanks for the reply.


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https://youtu.be/5kXiVSYmC0g I know who I'm basing my first distant grasp psychic on!


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roquepo wrote:
Gisher wrote:

Ooooo! I missed that!

But the cost is one class feat for each psi cantrip. That's the usual cost per focus spell (which psi cantrips kind of are) and twice as expensive as usual for regular cantrips which typically come two for a class feat. Plus you give up a "breadth" feat with that MC. That seems fairly balanced to me.

You get both a cantrip that is better than usual and a focus spell. That's very, very good (expending a level 12 feat for that, not so much, but it is still there as an option).

Exactly. Psychics are the cantrip/focus spell casting class, so you are getting the psi cantrips at a reduced price.

Gaining two focus spells and two cantrips will cost you a total of three feats for most multiclass archetypes. That's a rate of one focus spell and one cantrip per 1 1/2 feats.

For the Psychic MC you can get effectively get a focus spell and an enhanced cantrip for only one feat. That's a good deal both because the cost is lower and because the cantrips are better.

But you lose access to the breadth feat that the other standard casting multiclass archetypes get. Breadth ends up doubling the spell slots for both the Basic and Master Spellcasting feats so it's a pretty good deal, itself.

Compare taking six feats in Wizard MC (Dedication, Arcane School Spell, Breadth, and the three Spellcasting feats) versus taking six feats in Psychic MC (Dedication, Psi Development, Parallel Breakthrough, and the three Spellcasting feats).

Where do they stand at level 20?

The Psychic has the equivalent of two more focus spells and one extra cantrip, and all three of their cantrips are enhanced.

The Wizard has six more spells slots – one each for levels 1 through 6.

I think that's pretty decently balanced.


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Still thinking about Oscillating Wave, it is so cool. Right now my biggest question is, can you use Entropic Wheel when it is already active? And what happens if you do so? If you can do it, even if it does nothing, it is a "free" way of switching back to the previous damage type, which can be extremely useful. It is rare that a creature has resistances against both fire and cold damage. If you can only do it once, it is still a way of switching without spending an action, really useful while unleashing.

Also, the switching elements part covers resistances, but not immunities. Consider it mentions Fiery Body a few words after, I find it really weird. Probably something that went under radar when revising it.

Gisher wrote:
Stuff

Spellcasting feats are very pricey, though. Needing levels 2, 4, 8, 12 and 18 and one of your skills fully dedicated to those is a very big price. If I'm going for Psychic, I'm just grabbing the psi cantrips at 2 and 6, maybe a class feat or two, and moving on. If you only want to pay for that, it is incredibly stacked.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's really cool to think how Psychics, baseline, get 8 cantrips by the time they are level 10 without any feats at all. Then they can pick up 2 more from Cantrip Expansion, 1 more from the Parallel Breakthrough, and possibly a couple more from Ancestral Mind. That's a LOT of cantrips!

Even without the feats, having 8 cantrips, 5 of which can be amp'd and 2 of which get passive bonuses that make them better than other users of the same cantrips, is pretty dang cool.

Can't wait to make my own Psychic character when I get my hands on this book!


Ezekieru wrote:

It's really cool to think how Psychics, baseline, get 8 cantrips by the time they are level 10 without any feats at all. Then they can pick up 2 more from Cantrip Expansion, 1 more from the Parallel Breakthrough, and possibly a couple more from Ancestral Mind. That's a LOT of cantrips!

Even without the feats, having 8 cantrips, 5 of which can be amp'd and 2 of which get passive bonuses that make them better than other users of the same cantrips, is pretty dang cool.

Can't wait to make my own Psychic character when I get my hands on this book!

If you want more cantrips, you might find this useful.

Gisher's Guide to Acquiring Common Cantrips

For Ancestral Mind, note that an Elf of Mualijae ethnicity has a lot of options: up to three Arcane cantrips and up to four primal cantrips.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

In The Rules Lawyer’s video, it looks like The Silent Whisper is granted Sending as their 6th-level spell. Is this a mistake? Sending is a 5th-level spell.


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Oscillating Wave + Fiery Body has me a bit confused. Let's say you cast it as a fire spell originally, which changes you to cold, Then, you use your 1 action Produce Flame. This Produce Flame nows deal cold damage and does not benefit from the damage boost from the spell that made it one action.

Wouldn't it make more sense if effects like Fiery Body or Fire Shield changed elements after being casted depending on your energy state? It would not only visually reflect better your energy state, but it would make the spell less clunky.


Preliminary sentiment puts the psychic as being better than witch and oracle but still markedly inferior to the CRB casters.

The psychic's standing as a primary class is loaded almost entirely in gathered lore (unconscious mind) and tangible dream (conscious mind).

Gathered lore, like swashbuckler's one for all, is limitless at-will circumstance bonus. None of the other unconscious minds measure up in the slightest.

Tangible dream has a few benefits. Mostly hologram cage at 10+ for the same reasons why wall spells are among the best in the game.

Like champion before it, much of the psychic's power can be stolen by any other class through its archetype. It's prerequisite of int OR cha means that every single casting class and SAD martial can take it without any problems. The initial dedication also comes loaded with a trained skill, focus point, cantrip and the amp feature which is a lot of value. Being so frontloaded makes it great with multitalented as well especially with the extra amp effects that show up around heighten 4th.

As a bonus, psychic archetype has replaced cleric archetype for magus optimization thanks to imaginary weapon. Amp Tk projectile is a close match to fire ray by itself, but getting imaginary weapon at 6 puts psychic dedication ahead.

At the end of the day, psychic just can't compete with occult sorc. Especially not when sorc can pillage its choice of amp cantrip while having double the slots and double the spells known.

At least that guy who wanted EMIYA will be happy with tangible dream. Multilayed shield like aias, melee with projected weapons and AoE sword rain should all be right up their alley.


roquepo wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
On first viewing of the, the offensive feats and amps in particular aren't great.
They don't seem to have changed since the playtest, when they were originally balanced for the assumption of five amps per combat.
These get quite better when you consider that at minimum you can get 2 cantrips/focus spells per fight that add double their level to damage. If you are a level 13+ Oscillating Wave Psychic and get a cantrip that works with saves you can cast Fiery Body, then unleash and use a 1 action Ray of Frost/Produce Flame and a save cantrip with both having the extra damage from unleash. Thats a huge amount of damage for just a single spell slot.

If I was capable of writing down basic information, you would have known that I was only talking about offensive stuff granted by feats XD. The base class feature amps on the other are generally pretty good, so the opportunity cost alone makes taking those feats undesirable. I will have to sink more time into the possible combinations, though.


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I don’t care if it’s not the new Flickmace Fighter. My expectations have been so exceeded by the final Psychic; I’m unbelievably pleased.

Paizo, I’m begging you to put whoever made the Psychic on the 2e Inquisitor.


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gesalt wrote:

Preliminary sentiment puts the psychic as being better than witch and oracle but still markedly inferior to the CRB casters.

The psychic's standing as a primary class is loaded almost entirely in gathered lore (unconscious mind) and tangible dream (conscious mind).

Gathered lore, like swashbuckler's one for all, is limitless at-will circumstance bonus. None of the other unconscious minds measure up in the slightest.

Tangible dream has a few benefits. Mostly hologram cage at 10+ for the same reasons why wall spells are among the best in the game.

Like champion before it, much of the psychic's power can be stolen by any other class through its archetype. It's prerequisite of int OR cha means that every single casting class and SAD martial can take it without any problems. The initial dedication also comes loaded with a trained skill, focus point, cantrip and the amp feature which is a lot of value. Being so frontloaded makes it great with multitalented as well especially with the extra amp effects that show up around heighten 4th.

As a bonus, psychic archetype has replaced cleric archetype for magus optimization thanks to imaginary weapon. Amp Tk projectile is a close match to fire ray by itself, but getting imaginary weapon at 6 puts psychic dedication ahead.

At the end of the day, psychic just can't compete with occult sorc. Especially not when sorc can pillage its choice of amp cantrip while having double the slots and double the spells known.

At least that guy who wanted EMIYA will be happy with tangible dream. Multilayed shield like aias, melee with projected weapons and AoE sword rain should all be right up their alley.

To each their own. I can't be bothered to roll most casters bc of how weak they generally feel (to me) and how boring their class feats are. Meanwhile, the psychic is a class that makes me drop my martial preferences like a hot sack of potatoes.


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gesalt wrote:


Gathered lore, like swashbuckler's one for all, is limitless at-will circumstance bonus. None of the other unconscious minds measure up in the slightest.

Gathered Lore is a Psyche action. From what I can tell you only use those when you are Unleashed. So I wouldn't call them "limitless and at-will".

You basically in a 5 round battle you'll at maximum use it twice.


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Very pleased with the class by first impression. Distant Grasp looks pretty good, the extra reach and guaranteed shove on a hit for amp make it pretty sweet and with the heightened amp and unleashed psyche it looks like pretty decent damage output.

Telekinetic Rend is a lot better than in the playtest but I am rather sad it still hightens at +2. That just makes it feel bad at half the levels. I mean at least for the amp you could have done 1d6 per level and still amount to the same as 2d6 every two levels.
I think this cantrip is good if both amped and unleashed. Just amped I think you'd need at least hit 4 creatures for it to be worth it, maybe 3. The Fort save is also unfortunate, could have really been reflex.

I always planned a charisma psychic and when I heard in know direction one of them can heal I thought that's gonna be the best one. But gathered lore looks amazing, get cooperative nature and that's usable from level 1 on. Gunslingers Fake out is one of my fave feats and whole this isn't just as good (since fake out doesn't need an action to set it up) it's still pretty amazing.
The level 10 action for emotional acceptence does seem better but since I play mostly PFS if I'm not GMing I worry less about feats of that level.


shroudb wrote:
gesalt wrote:


Gathered lore, like swashbuckler's one for all, is limitless at-will circumstance bonus. None of the other unconscious minds measure up in the slightest.

Gathered Lore is a Psyche action. From what I can tell you only use those when you are Unleashed. So I wouldn't call them "limitless and at-will".

You basically in a 5 round battle you'll at maximum use it twice.

You're absolutely right, I missed that psyche trait.


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roquepo wrote:
Captivator is one of the strongest late game Dedications for any CHA caster so it will be the same for Psychic. Even INT Psychics can get the dedication and still get the full spellcasting DC with that level 1 feat for innate cantrips.

Just keep in mind that the level 1 feat is only for the ANCESTRY innate spells. Not for the Captivator innate spells.

---

Overall extremely pleased with the class and the diversity.

For me, apart from the focus points, the other limiting factor, especially for a more support oriented Psychic are the reactions.

A ton of the support features are locked behind a reaction. Be it the Shield Amps, the Guidance Amps, the 2 different ways to Aid Another (either via the 3rd level cantrip or via Gathered Lore), and probably more that I'm missing.

From what I can tell, there's not a way to get multiple reactions as a psychic unlike other reaction heavy classes like swash, paladin, fighter, etc.

That's why I believe that some actions that initially look a bit weaker end up ultimately being better when you account for the whole action economy.

Take Emotional acceptance vs Gathered lore as an example.
In most circumstances, a +3 to a check via the Aid would be much better than something like 18 hp (both at character level 8).

But the simple fact that you can heal 3 allies immediately when you unleash and still have your reaction ready for something like a Guidance Amp, or even heal 2 allies and use your Shield Amp to mitigate even more damage with your reaction, ends up (imo) being overall superior.


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Unless I'm missing something restoration is going to be pretty key for the psychic as it allows them to remove stupefied, which seems to be the trait that locks them out of their damage gimmick ?


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It's very poachable, but I don't really care. I love useful, unlimited single actions and having a lot of cheap and flavorful options, and Psychic as a main class just gets you way more of those than it does as an archetype, more than most classes in general. Plus there's so many good archetypes that it's quite certain some big-shot caster or martial picking up its cantrips will be using feats the Psychic can leverage for its own playstyle, and double refocus at Lv 1 is just nice to have (even if it's restricted and there's weirdly no followup to that benefit). Pretty much every class that isn't a martial near full HP will feel bad if there's no time for a 10-minute break, so that part's not new. ¯\_('v')_/¯

Overall, it seems like it could have used more editing love, and some of the options are pretty plainly more powerful than others, but I like how it turned out a lot~.

AlastarOG wrote:
Unless I'm missing something restoration is going to be pretty key for the psychic as it allows them to remove stupefied, which seems to be the trait that locks them out of their damage gimmick ?

Restoration is way too slow. Consider, instead: Focus Cathartics, Holistic Care, Blessed Denial, or maybe Mental Balm or whatever it's called. Assuming there's no unseen clause forbidding these things. ~w~


AlastarOG wrote:
Unless I'm missing something restoration is going to be pretty key for the psychic as it allows them to remove stupefied, which seems to be the trait that locks them out of their damage gimmick ?

Not sure how worth that is.

You're only stupefied for 2 rounds. Losing 1 round and risking losing your Restoration (since you'll be casting while stupified) seems too much investment for too little gain.

You're effectively losing 1 round to gain 1 round with the chance of losing 1 round for no benefit.

I think that instead, Skill actions would be preferable, or at worst risking losing some actions on no-check cantrips.

Other alternatives could be alchemist dedication on an Int based Psychic to have consumables to use instead.


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shroudb wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
Unless I'm missing something restoration is going to be pretty key for the psychic as it allows them to remove stupefied, which seems to be the trait that locks them out of their damage gimmick ?

Not sure how worth that is.

You're only stupefied for 2 rounds. Losing 1 round and risking losing your Restoration (since you'll be casting while stupified) seems too much investment for too little gain.

It doesn't do anything for Unleash Psyche anyway. After Unleash Psyche ends, you cannot use it again for two rounds, which is independent of the stupefied condition you get.


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Getting the 4th level (was it 4th level?) feat that gives you an amp that can cleanse it may be ok as a fallback in case you really need to cast a particular spell after unleash finishes. One action cleanse into spell is nice even if the cleanse itself can fail the stupified check or just not work.

And thanks for the correction about INT + captivator, my mistake.


I did a bit of testing for the Average Damage of Telekinetic Rend.

I used this site https://crypticsplicer.github.io/pathfinder_dpr/

I compared the average damage to Electric Arc, because that is a good cantrip and also compareable (dealing damage on a save to multiple targets). Now EA targets reflex while TR targets Fortitude. I think Fort saves are generally the stronger ones, but TR has more range, so for the sake of the experiment i assumed equal saves. I also assume 2 targets for EA and varying target number for TR

Now Unamped, not unleashed Rend is barely ever worth it.
Lets look at level 1:
You need at least 4 Targets to even deal as much Average Damage as EA. In Unleashed it deals slightly more damage when you get 3 targets with TR.
Amped it deals about EAs Damage if both target two creatures. The average damage shoots up when also unleashed, about 30% more damage than EA, with the possibility for more if you get more than two creatures.

At level 3 it gets really rough. EA gets a boost while TR gets nothing unless unleashed. Only use this at unleashed and amped here. You could go unamped if you are unleashed and get 3 targets or more.

Level 5 is where TR really comes to live because with an additional burst when amped targeting 3 enemies becomes much easier. Still, unamped and unleashed you need at least 4 targets to reach EAs damage.
with an easier time to hit 3 targets, the amp now becomes really strong, dealing 50% more damage tha EA (which makes sense considering its an extra target) and about 2,25 times more when amped and unleashed.

All together i'd say its a good cantrip when factoring in Psychics bonuses. Its real strenght is the 60ft range and two 5 foot bursts making it easier to catch more enemies. Still its probably not ever worth it to use it while not either amped or unleashed and it shines when you do both. It also does have the chance to stun.
Real strenght comes in at level 5 but it does have weak spots on the levels where it doesnt gain a hightening bonus.


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gesalt wrote:
[...] At the end of the day, psychic just can't compete with occult sorc. Especially not when sorc can pillage its choice of amp cantrip while having double the slots and double the spells known.[...]

I think this is very short-sighted. Or, in case of spells known, simply wrong - despite only having 2 spell slot per level, psychic learns 3 spells per level. Anyway, the relationship isn't nearly as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

The difference is most extreme at lower levels (about pre-5 or 7) and in this area, I'd say the psychic has the clear upper hand. After an encounter or two, the sorcerer has spend a lot of what he brings to the table. Meanwhile, the psychic has at least 2 focus points for every encounter, allowing him to do his chosen thing ad infinitum each day. After that, the sorcerer's sustain becomes much less of a problem, but he'll still run out of certain spells, meaning he can no longer perform whatever role that spell gives him. The psychic can.

Then there are benefits that are harder to quantify. Legendary in will saves. Usually superior range. Superior damage during Unleash, but with a significant drawback afterwards. You ignore silence effects completely.

There are probably more, but that is what I can think of off the top of my had. So I'd say it is fine ;)


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Regarding stupefied after unleashing psyche, have you considered just not being cowards and casting spells anyway?

Do it, and become legends.


Karmagator wrote:

The difference is most extreme at lower levels (about pre-5 or 7) and in this area, I'd say the psychic has the clear upper hand. After an encounter or two, the sorcerer has spend a lot of what he brings to the table. Meanwhile, the psychic has at least 2 focus points for every encounter, allowing him to do his chosen thing ad infinitum each day. After that, the sorcerer's sustain becomes much less of a problem, but he'll still run out of certain spells, meaning he can no longer perform whatever role that spell gives him. The psychic can.

Then there are benefits that are harder to quantify. Legendary in will saves. Usually superior range. Superior damage during Unleash, but with a significant drawback afterwards. You ignore silence effects completely.

There are probably more, but that is what I can think of off the top of my had. So I'd say it is fine ;)

I'd like to know where you're getting the idea that the sorc is tapped out after an encounter or two. In sub-severe encounters no resources are spent unless the party is exceptionally weak. At 1-4, you're mostly just casting magic weapon, illusory object and calm emotions, all of which are going to accomplish more than a pair of amped psi cantrips. At higher levels, in a day of non stop severe+ encounters, the psychic's focus powers can't compete with calm emotions, synesthesia or wall of X. So sure, after the 4th encounter the psychic might pull ahead but not before being much weaker for encounters 3 and 4. You'll still have many illusory objects from a staff like the sorc.

As for damage, I still haven't seen the scenario where PC caster damage (single target or AoE) is worth much of anything in severe+ outside of glyph of warding cheese. The psychic's best damage dealing setup is looking to be imaginary weapon with the multi-target acting as a pseudo true strike (optionally add reach through an archetype). This is probably good damage twice per encounter, but it still can't beat spell slot control for consistency of use.

This is all aside from the sorc being able to steal your choice of amp with a single feat and associated unique cantrip with a second. They can even take the extra focus recovery feat at 12 if they really want to match the psychic in focus spam while beating them at normal casting. The psychic is never buying its way out of the hole it's in, though captivator can help between the extra slots and effortless concentration on illusions and enchantments which psychic lacks natively. Sorcs also get reach at Human 1 so range shouldn't be an issue either if it comes up.

For the rest, legendary will is nice as is silence immunity, niche as it is. I just don't think they make up for the downsides.


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Xenocrat wrote:

Regarding stupefied after unleashing psyche, have you considered just not being cowards and casting spells anyway?

Do it, and become legends.

NEVER !!!

Obviously that's the way to go but having a couple of ways to remove it in case it's a surprise wave encounter or whatnot can definitely be a good idea.

Restoration is on the occult list so that was my go to but there's other ways as mentionnés above.

If you're mopping the remnants of the fight after round 1: cast round 2: unleash blast round 3 blast then sure, cast while stupefied.

If you're at the fourth round and the fight is not going your way and you can hear reinforcements coming, might be time to try to clear that stupefy.


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No, seriously, Restoration is way too slow. It's a 1 minute cast.

I don't even know where to begin with Gesalt's post, it seems like a very confident and yet highly specific and skewed analysis that somehow left me less convinced that Psychic is at this impossible-to-escape power deficit compared to Sorcerer. Not that any of our impressions mean much without time spent testing the release version of the class in actual play. ¯\_('•')_/¯


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gesalt wrote:
I'd like to know where you're getting the idea that the sorc is tapped out after an encounter or two. In sub-severe encounters no resources are spent unless the party is exceptionally weak. At 1-4, you're mostly just casting magic weapon, illusory object and calm emotions, all of which are going to accomplish more than a pair of amped psi cantrips.

I never said tapped out, I said that he is down quite a few resources, which is the thing he brings to the table. At that point, you have 3-8 spells for the entire day and when you count 1 or two per decent encounter, those aren't going to last super long.

Not to mention that at this stage even sub-severe encounters are threatening due to low hp pools. And when you don't use spell slots in those, the psychic becomes even more useful and powerful, so I don't know what your point here is. Not that he doesn't have spell slots as well.

gesalt wrote:
At higher levels, in a day of non stop severe+ encounters, the psychic's focus powers can't compete with calm emotions, synesthesia or wall of X. So sure, after the 4th encounter the psychic might pull ahead but not before being much weaker for encounters 3 and 4. You'll still have many illusory objects from a staff like the sorc.

Overblowing the power of calm emotions (it isn't bad, but in severe+ encounters, incapacitation doesn't do great, not to mention sustaining costs actions you might need) and illusory object aside, you talk like the psychic doesn't have spell slots or that amps can't do some real damage (both literally and figuratively. As a Distant Grasp psychic, I can make enemy ranged attackers completely useless with a single focus point and some decent positioning. With Tangible Dream, I can create full visual barriers for free (except actions ofc) and walls spells for a focus point. And so on. To do the same, the sorcerer always has to blow resources and you only have so many signature spells.

That's not even going into the psyche actions, which are both powerful and have great action economy.

gesalt wrote:
As for damage, I still haven't seen the scenario where PC caster damage (single target or AoE) is worth much of anything in severe+ outside of glyph of warding cheese. The psychic's best damage dealing setup is looking to be imaginary weapon with the multi-target acting as a pseudo true strike (optionally add reach through an archetype). This is probably good damage twice per encounter, but it still can't beat spell slot control for consistency of use.

Well, we clearly have been playing different games then.

gesalt wrote:

This is all aside from the sorc being able to steal your choice of amp with a single feat and associated unique cantrip with a second. They can even take the extra focus recovery feat at 12 if they really want to match the psychic in focus spam while beating them at normal casting. The psychic is never buying its way out of the hole it's in, though captivator can help between the extra slots and effortless concentration on illusions and enchantments which psychic lacks natively. Sorcs also get reach at Human 1 so range shouldn't be an issue either if it comes up.

For the rest, legendary will is nice as is silence immunity, niche as it is. I just don't think they make up for the downsides.

And the psychic gets all of that for free - 2 focus points + refocus for 2 at the start and an additional point later. All the cantrips in the world, including ones the sorcerer cannot get. The range is free as well, no need to spend class resources and additional actions in combat.

And if the sorcerer spends all those feats getting my stuff, I just take more spell slots from the sorcerer dedication and we once again end up more or less on equal terms. And since that is kind of the only thing the sorcerer does or gets, I'm not sure the psychic is the one getting robbed here.

That's why it is called a "tradeoff".


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Given that I’ve GMed almost every AP in 2e and none of my players have ever played an occult caster the “optimal” way (I’ve never seen a soul take Magic Weapon or Illusory Object), I think the vast majority of players won’t find themselves to be weaker than an occult sorcerer in actual play. What’s really important here is that the psychic allows you to fill a different niche - someone who doesn’t want to worry as much about resource conservation - and that’s what going to be more important to most players.


Alfa/Polaris wrote:

No, seriously, Restoration is way too slow. It's a 1 minute cast.

I don't even know where to begin with Gesalt's post, it seems like a very confident and yet highly specific and skewed analysis that somehow left me less convinced that Psychic is at this impossible-to-escape power deficit compared to Sorcerer. Not that any of our impressions mean much without time spent testing the release version of the class in actual play. ¯\_('•')_/¯

Damnit I keep forgetting the 1 minute cast time. Focused Cathartic then.


Right now, I'm really happy that my group uses homebrew rings that adjust spell attack rolls (not DCs) to match weapon potency runes. I'd play it without it, but damn that's going to be good...


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AlastarOG wrote:
Alfa/Polaris wrote:

No, seriously, Restoration is way too slow. It's a 1 minute cast.

I don't even know where to begin with Gesalt's post, it seems like a very confident and yet highly specific and skewed analysis that somehow left me less convinced that Psychic is at this impossible-to-escape power deficit compared to Sorcerer. Not that any of our impressions mean much without time spent testing the release version of the class in actual play. ¯\_('•')_/¯

Damnit I keep forgetting the 1 minute cast time. Focused Cathartic then.

The math isn't favorable for those either...

Making them yourself is useless, since even as a Herbalist (which would give you the highest item level compared to your class level) you would need to roll a nat20 on them to counteract the Stupified.

So the only way is to buy /have a full alchemist.

Even then, since they are just level 2/4/12/18 versions of them, outside very specific levels, they do nothing, as an example, from level 7-11 you are back to needing a nat20 for them to work. Same for level 15-17, and etc.


Look, just get a max mental relic with grand gift. Congrats, you're immune to stupefied 1. Easy!


Blessed Denial is gonna be clutch for psychic players as long as someone else have it.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Oscillating Wave is a really, really fun path, especially with the entropic wheel mechanic. There's a bunch of cool stuff, but I love that little bit of design, more generally the stronger amp effects were absolutely the right direction for the class.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Oscillating Wave is a really, really fun path, especially with the entropic wheel mechanic. There's a bunch of cool stuff, but I love that little bit of design, more generally the stronger amp effects were absolutely the right direction for the class.

Note that amped Ray of Frost will give you almost as many temp HP as you lose to the feat that damages you to provide a focus point when you're at zero.

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