Premature discussion about the Psychic


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Now looking through the full feat list, I'm seeing a surprising amount of choice. Most stuff prior to level 6 (and especially level 4) is not very exciting - notable exceptions can be Mental Balm and Psi Burst (depending on your build) - but after that it's looking pretty good. Level 6 and 8 are packed. I almost thought I was looking at the level 10 fighter selection with the amount of cool stuff that is on offer.

Still a shame that literally none of the pre-20 Unleash Psyche modification feats are ever worth picking, which eliminates two feats from the get-go. Maybe even 3 feats if you count Psi Catastrophe. The psychic has a real IFF problem, which I don't really see a good reason for.


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Xenocrat wrote:

Do people think the Distortion Lens cantrip for Unbound Step psychic boosts/hampers range of spell/abilities that don't involve an attack roll?

The basic spell description refers to ranged attacks, but the heighten section refers to "abilities." Physical ranged strikes are definitely a yes, and ranged spell attacks, but what about other ranged abilities that attack you with a save? Can I use this to make me out of range of a monster ability?

As written, I'm pretty sure only pure ranged attacks are supposed to be included. That said, as a GM I would loosen that restriction considerably in some areas, just to keep with the idea of the spell.

I'd say line effects from things like breath weapons or lightning bolt can reasonably be included. When something involves a cone or burst, I'd say probably not, except maybe if you are on the very edge. Otherwise all the stuff happening to your right and left would be enough to make the effects happen. Weirder stuff is a case-by-case basis, though as a general rule, I'd say that anything that somehow uses a contained projectile, beam or something like that should be affected, while anything that has a substantial area of effect is not.


graystone wrote:
The new classes are up on nethys now! I can now put away the book and never look at it again: I had a hard time finding stuff in]. ;)

Also on Pathbuilder 2e.

Dark Archive

Psi Burst is a very neat little feat.

A single action, ranged, variable save, variable damage option, that can be grabbed from the MC. It’s damage is not too far off from some of the lesser cantrips.

I can see myself grabbing it on some characters just as a neat little 3rd action.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Psi Burst is a very neat little feat.

A single action, ranged, variable save, variable damage option, that can be grabbed from the MC. It’s damage is not too far off from some of the lesser cantrips.

I can see myself grabbing it on some characters just as a neat little 3rd action.

It's quite neat, though it conflicts with other psyche actions quite often.

The MC archetype on the other hand has no use for it, as they can't use it. Psyche actions are Unleash-only.

Dark Archive

Ah shoot! I missed that trait.

That really takes it down several notches.


Strain Mind raises the discussion about downcasting cantrips again...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Real shame that Wellspring Mage is so incompatible with the Psychic’s limited spell slots. If any of my players ever wanted to play that combination, I’d probably just allow them to gain a temporary slot of their highest spell level even if the reduction in spell slots means they technically have 0 slots of that spell level.

Scarab Sages

Attempt 2 to build melee psychic using tangible dream for those melee attacks.

1)Ancestry-Dwarf. Heritage strong-blooded (poison is nasty for low fort classes)
-Ancestry feat-Unburdoned iron
-Optional flaw-Wisdom twice to bump charisma twice.
Background: strength and charisma
Tangible dream and wandering reverie
Final stats at level 1: str 14, dex 12, con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, charisma 18
1) Level one, sit back and TK projectile things.
Level 2) Champion Dedication (Cayden Calian?) begin wearing breastplate, no penalty to speed due to unburdened iron.
3) general feat toughness
4) whatever
5) up strength, wisdom, con, charisma, start wearing half-plate (no nenty to speed due to unburdened iron)
6) whatever
7) Fleet
8) Whatever
9) mountain’s stoutness.
10) up Con, int, Wis, charisma.


VampByDay wrote:

Attempt 2 to build melee psychic using tangible dream for those melee attacks.

1)Ancestry-Dwarf. Heritage strong-blooded (poison is nasty for low fort classes)
-Ancestry feat-Unburdoned iron
-Optional flaw-Wisdom twice to bump charisma twice.
Background: strength and charisma
Tangible dream and wandering reverie
Final stats at level 1: str 14, dex 12, con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, charisma 18
1) Level one, sit back and TK projectile things.
Level 2) Champion Dedication (Cayden Calian?) begin wearing breastplate, no penalty to speed due to unburdened iron.
3) general feat toughness
4) whatever
5) up strength, wisdom, con, charisma, start wearing half-plate (no nenty to speed due to unburdened iron)
6) whatever
7) Fleet
8) Whatever
9) mountain’s stoutness.
10) up Con, int, Wis, charisma.

Looks good but definitely should go with a penalty to wisdom and intelligence rather than wisdom twice.


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Alright. Psychic is now my favorite full-casting class.

So. Many. Possibilities. To. Choose. From!


My new favorite way to use imaginary weapon is through tentacular limbs. Credit to Kyrone. Gnomes can support the heavy focus point cost through multiple ancestry feats. Even better than meta magic since the reach scales up to 60 feet by 17th level.


Anyone knows if the infinite eye psi cantrip - Glimpse Weakness can be stacked on a single creature. It is 1 action to cast, so was wondering if you can cast it 3 times on the same creature to deals additional precision damage equal to 1 + this spell's level 3 times on the next successful hit.

I understand that bonuses from the same categories cannot stack, but since the dmg is neither circumstance, status, item bonuses it should be able to stack?


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hong yi tan wrote:

Anyone knows if the infinite eye psi cantrip - Glimpse Weakness can be stacked on a single creature. It is 1 action to cast, so was wondering if you can cast it 3 times on the same creature to deals additional precision damage equal to 1 + this spell's level 3 times on the next successful hit.

I understand that bonuses from the same categories cannot stack, but since the dmg is neither circumstance, status, item bonuses it should be able to stack?

"Duplicate Effects

When you’re affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies, using the higher level of the effects, or the newer effect if the two are the same level. For example, if you were using mage armor and then cast it again, you’d still benefit from only one casting of that spell. Casting a spell again on the same target might get you a better duration or effect if it were cast at a higher level the second time, but otherwise doing so gives you no advantage."

So, nope.
Still, Glimpse Weakness is just crazy good for a third action. Unamped, it's in line with a martial secondary attack in terms of average damage and you are pretty sure the damage will be dealt as it lasts one minute.


SuperBidi wrote:
hong yi tan wrote:

Anyone knows if the infinite eye psi cantrip - Glimpse Weakness can be stacked on a single creature. It is 1 action to cast, so was wondering if you can cast it 3 times on the same creature to deals additional precision damage equal to 1 + this spell's level 3 times on the next successful hit.

I understand that bonuses from the same categories cannot stack, but since the dmg is neither circumstance, status, item bonuses it should be able to stack?

"Duplicate Effects

When you’re affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies, using the higher level of the effects, or the newer effect if the two are the same level. For example, if you were using mage armor and then cast it again, you’d still benefit from only one casting of that spell. Casting a spell again on the same target might get you a better duration or effect if it were cast at a higher level the second time, but otherwise doing so gives you no advantage."

So, nope.

ok got it!

So I'll just cast it on multiple targets, that should work right...one on each creature.

I'm using parallel breakthrough to get this psi cantrip, is it worth it?


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I edited my previous text after making a quick check on Citricking's tool. In a word: It's more than worth it. It's an absolutely excellent third action, it's even quite out of bounds in my opinion.

Scarab Sages

Okay, so, discovered the most diverse psychic.

1) Choose a Gnome. Go either Emotional acceptance or wandering reverie to get synergy with gnome bonus to charisma.

Gnome Heritage: Fey-Touched Gnome, choose as your spell Acid Splash
Gnome Feat: First World magic (Electric Arc)
Psychic Conscious Mind: Oscillating Wave
Psychic Feat: Ancestral Mind: Turns both your primal innate spells into psychic occult spells (which you get up to legendary with).
Psychic Feat (level 4) Cantrip Expansion: To snag Haunting Hymn and Telekenetic Projectile.

And Viola: Your psychic has access to: Fire, Cold, Acid, sonic, Electricity, Piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing only from cantrips, and you still have 3 cantrips left to do with however you please (like maybe getting the shield cantrp for defense, I dunno.) As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again. And for cold? Vice Versa.

Alternately, instead of Fey-Touched Gnome you could grab Wellspring Gnome to get a divine spell like divine lance (remove acid, add good, lawful and/or chaotic) or disrupt undead (remove acid, add positive.)

Now, if you are wondering why I might go to all this trouble . . . it is because golems are immune to all magic except for like, one elemental weakness each SCREW YOU GOLEMS I WILL HAVE A WAY OF STOPPING YOU!

Anyway, came up with this and thought it was fun enough to share.

EDIT: Oh, at level 6 pick up parallell breakthrough for Distant Wisper's Daze spell, just so you can throw mental damage in there.


VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.

They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.

Scarab Sages

Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.
They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.

Hm, in that case you'll need to pick up Psi Strike as a 4th level feat. It is a Mindshift free action that makes your next strike deal force (or mindshift-mental) damage. Because it is mindshift, oscillating wave lets you choose to deal fire/cold instead. Then you can just punch the air for cold damage and go back to frying that hydra next round. Or you could pick up the feat psi burst which is also mindshift, one action, does a bit of damage (reflex for half) and just throw some damage at a blade of grass or something if you don't want to hit what you are hitting.


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Did someone mention that Perception check on a normal Perception non-wisdom caster progression in FORESEE THE PATH is just ... completely terrible? Against even the highest of Will, Deception or any other DC GM deems appropriate.


VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.
They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.
Hm, in that case you'll need to pick up Psi Strike as a 4th level feat. It is a Mindshift free action that makes your next strike deal force (or mindshift-mental) damage. Because it is mindshift, oscillating wave lets you choose to deal fire/cold instead. Then you can just punch the air for cold damage and go back to frying that hydra next round. Or you could pick up the feat psi burst which is also mindshift, one action, does a bit of damage (reflex for half) and just throw some damage at a blade of grass or something if you don't want to hit what you are hitting.

This also probably doesn’t work. The mindshift trait under Oscilliting Wave let’s you add/remove energy, but Conservation of Energy also says that only spells must choose and are forced to swap orientation. Mindshift abilities, not being spells, look like they are free to pick cold/fire and don’t interact with what your spells have to do.


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Still premature? :)


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Always have been, always will be. :-(


So with the psychic multiclass if I take oscillating wave I don't get to add or remove energy? If that's the case do I get to add/remove energy if I choose produce flame with parallel breakthrough?

Scarab Sages

Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.
They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.
Hm, in that case you'll need to pick up Psi Strike as a 4th level feat. It is a Mindshift free action that makes your next strike deal force (or mindshift-mental) damage. Because it is mindshift, oscillating wave lets you choose to deal fire/cold instead. Then you can just punch the air for cold damage and go back to frying that hydra next round. Or you could pick up the feat psi burst which is also mindshift, one action, does a bit of damage (reflex for half) and just throw some damage at a blade of grass or something if you don't want to hit what you are hitting.
This also probably doesn’t work. The mindshift trait under Oscilliting Wave let’s you add/remove energy, but Conservation of Energy also says that only spells must choose and are forced to swap orientation. Mindshift abilities, not being spells, look like they are free to pick cold/fire and don’t interact with what your spells have to do.

Wow, that is . . . poorly written

Dark Archive, p. 19 wrote:

Whenever you use your magic to add or remove

energy, you must then balance it with the opposing force.
The first time in an encounter that you cast a granted spell
from your conscious mind or a psi cantrip,
decide whether
you’re adding energy or removing it. Once you add energy,
you must remove energy the next time you cast one of these
spells.
Dark Archive, Later on p. 19 wrote:


Mindshift: When you use an action that has the mindshift
trait, you can choose to add or remove energy to it instead of
making it mental. Alter it as normal for adding or removing
energy
and change any save it requires to a Reflex save.

So that can be read two ways, neither of which is clear. Either Oscilating wave requires a spell (italicized section) or that what is important is adding or removing energy, and a spell can do that, but also mindshifts can as well (bold reading.)

Also, can you provide a link to the errata that says thermal stasis doesn't work? Just for my own piece of mind?


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VampByDay wrote:
Also, can you provide a link to the errata that says thermal stasis doesn't work? Just for my own piece of mind?

I could instead, if FAQ parts were directly linkable:

https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq

Errata wrote:
Page 19: The oscillating wave psychic’s unique psi cantrips (thermal stasis, entropic wheel, and redistribute potential) are not intended to interact with their conservation of energy class feature, as they manipulate cold and fire at the same time. Similarly, psi cantrips from other conscious minds (for instance, ones gained through the Parallel Breakthrough feat) shouldn’t interact with conservation of energy. Modify the text in the Conservation of Energy section from “The first time in an encounter that you cast a granted spell from your conscious mind or a psi cantrip” to “The first time in an encounter that you cast a granted spell or standard psi cantrip from your conscious mind.”

Scarab Sages

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Errenor wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Also, can you provide a link to the errata that says thermal stasis doesn't work? Just for my own piece of mind?

I could instead, if FAQ parts were directly linkable:

https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq

Errata wrote:
Page 19: The oscillating wave psychic’s unique psi cantrips (thermal stasis, entropic wheel, and redistribute potential) are not intended to interact with their conservation of energy class feature, as they manipulate cold and fire at the same time. Similarly, psi cantrips from other conscious minds (for instance, ones gained through the Parallel Breakthrough feat) shouldn’t interact with conservation of energy. Modify the text in the Conservation of Energy section from “The first time in an encounter that you cast a granted spell from your conscious mind or a psi cantrip” to “The first time in an encounter that you cast a granted spell or standard psi cantrip from your conscious mind.”

Thanks, wasn't sure if that was official errata or just something one developer said on one forum post somewhere.


VampByDay wrote:


Thanks, wasn't sure if that was official errata or just something one developer said on one forum post somewhere.

Pretty much official, yeah. I'm grateful they are working on it already and have made sensible changes, but the work definitely isn't done yet.

Scarab Sages

So, question to the boards, what are some uncommon/rare ancestries (not the core rulebook ones) that you would consider good for the psychic, and why?


How long go amped cantrips last?
I can't see a duration ( though I see that the shield cantrip, for example, lasts until all 3 shield block are used).

Also, what about the heightened amp?
When does it kick in?

Nethys is down and I am having hard time understanding what's on pathbuilder.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Is there a spell you're asking about? You amp as part of casting the spell, and that casting of the spell is... amped.

So it lasts however long the amp does. Heightened Amp is just an alternative/additional heightening for the amped version of the spell.


Squiggit wrote:

Is there a spell you're asking about? You amp as part of casting the spell, and that casting of the spell is... amped.

So it lasts however long the amp does. Heightened Amp is just an alternative/additional heightening for the amped version of the spell.

For example, guidance.

How long does it last the possibility to use guidance on immune targets after I use amp?
Just for that specific cast?

Meaning I'll use a focus point to cast guidance on an immune target and that's it?

Plus, by what lvl the amp is going to be heightened bringing the guidance bonus to +2?

Scarab Sages

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Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.
They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.
Hm, in that case you'll need to pick up Psi Strike as a 4th level feat. It is a Mindshift free action that makes your next strike deal force (or mindshift-mental) damage. Because it is mindshift, oscillating wave lets you choose to deal fire/cold instead. Then you can just punch the air for cold damage and go back to frying that hydra next round. Or you could pick up the feat psi burst which is also mindshift, one action, does a bit of damage (reflex for half) and just throw some damage at a blade of grass or something if you don't want to hit what you are hitting.
This also probably doesn’t work. The mindshift trait under Oscilliting Wave let’s you add/remove energy, but Conservation of Energy also says that only spells must choose and are forced to swap orientation. Mindshift abilities, not being spells, look like they are free to pick cold/fire and don’t interact with what your spells have to do.

Nevermind, got it. Man, I kinda want to play this now:

Step 1) Play a Tengu with choose any subconcious mind (though I would go with an int one just because I like being smart over likable)
Step 2) Heritage: mountaineer Tengu. Ancestry Feat: Mariner's Flame
Step 3) Make sure you have the cantrips TK projectile and Haunting Hymn. Choose any concious mind OTHER THAN Oscillating Wave.
Step 4) Level 2 class Feat: Ancestral Mind turns Disrupt Undead (Mountaineer Tengu) and Produce Flame (Mariner's Flame) into psychic occult spells with your spellcasting mod as your innate ability mod.
Step 5) Level 3, pick up the general feat ancestral Paragon for Storm Lash, now you add Electric Arc to the list.
Step 6)Level 6, pick up paralell breakthrough for Ray of frost.

There you go, you have cantrips that can do the following damage types: Radiant, Fire Cold, Electricity, Sonic, Bludgeoning, Picercing, and Slashing. Couldn't figure out a way to get acid, but if someone can figure out how to get acid splash into that build let me know!


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HumbleGamer wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Is there a spell you're asking about? You amp as part of casting the spell, and that casting of the spell is... amped.

So it lasts however long the amp does. Heightened Amp is just an alternative/additional heightening for the amped version of the spell.

For example, guidance.

How long does it last the possibility to use guidance on immune targets after I use amp?
Just for that specific cast?

Meaning I'll use a focus point to cast guidance on an immune target and that's it?

Plus, by what lvl the amp is going to be heightened bringing the guidance bonus to +2?

Amped Guidance is a reaction instead of an action.

Furthermore you KNOW when it will turn a fail to a success and that's when you can use it.
That's the benefit of amping it.

It doesn't have duration, it only affects the one roll you will use it on.

As far as heightened amp goes for the +2, it works like normal heightened. In this case, since Guidance's heightened amp is
"amp heightened (6th):..." it means that this effect happens when you amp a 6th level or higher guidance.


shroudb wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Is there a spell you're asking about? You amp as part of casting the spell, and that casting of the spell is... amped.

So it lasts however long the amp does. Heightened Amp is just an alternative/additional heightening for the amped version of the spell.

For example, guidance.

How long does it last the possibility to use guidance on immune targets after I use amp?
Just for that specific cast?

Meaning I'll use a focus point to cast guidance on an immune target and that's it?

Plus, by what lvl the amp is going to be heightened bringing the guidance bonus to +2?

Amped Guidance is a reaction instead of an action.

Furthermore you KNOW when it will turn a fail to a success and that's when you can use it.
That's the benefit of amping it.

It doesn't have duration, it only affects the one roll you will use it on.

As far as heightened amp goes for the +2, it works like normal heightened. In this case, since Guidance's heightened amp is
"amp heightened (6th):..." it means that this effect happens when you amp a 6th level or higher guidance.

Seems pathbuilder is a mess then, or maybe I missed something.

Amped guidance is an action ( no reaction mentioned), and no mentioning of what level the heightened amp.


HumbleGamer wrote:
shroudb wrote:
HumbleGamer wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Is there a spell you're asking about? You amp as part of casting the spell, and that casting of the spell is... amped.

So it lasts however long the amp does. Heightened Amp is just an alternative/additional heightening for the amped version of the spell.

For example, guidance.

How long does it last the possibility to use guidance on immune targets after I use amp?
Just for that specific cast?

Meaning I'll use a focus point to cast guidance on an immune target and that's it?

Plus, by what lvl the amp is going to be heightened bringing the guidance bonus to +2?

Amped Guidance is a reaction instead of an action.

Furthermore you KNOW when it will turn a fail to a success and that's when you can use it.
That's the benefit of amping it.

It doesn't have duration, it only affects the one roll you will use it on.

As far as heightened amp goes for the +2, it works like normal heightened. In this case, since Guidance's heightened amp is
"amp heightened (6th):..." it means that this effect happens when you amp a 6th level or higher guidance.

Seems pathbuilder is a mess then, or maybe I missed something.

Amped guidance is an action ( no reaction mentioned), and no mentioning of what level the heightened amp.

Not sure how pathbuilder does stuff, but it's part of the description of the Amp:

Quote:

You have eyes everywhere, allowing you to guide people

from a great distance. The range of guidance increases to
120 feet. It also gains the following amp.
Amp You can project a flash of insight to your ally in the nick
of time to save them from failure. Amped guidance doesn’t
cause a creature to become temporarily immune to guidance,
and a creature can be targeted by amped guidance even if it
is temporarily immune to guidance.
You can cast an amped guidance spell as a reaction
triggered when your ally fails or critically fails an attack
roll, Perception check, saving throw, or skill check, and the
bonus from guidance would change the failure to a success
or the critical failure to a normal failure. The bonus from
guidance applies retroactively to their check.

(emphasis mine)


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Amps only modify the existing cantrips. Everything they don't touch, such as guidance's duration of 1 round, remains the same. The amp's level is the same as the cantrip's ("Add the amp's heightened effects when you cast the cantrip at that level or higher."). So if you cast guidance at 6th level or higher and amp it, you get +2.

Amped guidance itself can be used freely on any target within range. It ignores existing temporary guidance immunity, and it doesn't impose said immunity.

You can cast amped guidance in two ways - normal as one action or as a reaction to a fail/crit fail of an ally after the result is announced. If used as a reaction, the bonus applies retroactively.

Liberty's Edge

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VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.
They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.
Hm, in that case you'll need to pick up Psi Strike as a 4th level feat. It is a Mindshift free action that makes your next strike deal force (or mindshift-mental) damage. Because it is mindshift, oscillating wave lets you choose to deal fire/cold instead. Then you can just punch the air for cold damage and go back to frying that hydra next round. Or you could pick up the feat psi burst which is also mindshift, one action, does a bit of damage (reflex for half) and just throw some damage at a blade of grass or something if you don't want to hit what you are hitting.
This also probably doesn’t work. The mindshift trait under Oscilliting Wave let’s you add/remove energy, but Conservation of Energy also says that only spells must choose and are forced to swap orientation. Mindshift abilities, not being spells, look like they are free to pick cold/fire and don’t interact with what your spells have to do.

Nevermind, got it. Man, I kinda want to play this now:

Step 1) Play a Tengu with choose any subconcious mind (though I would go with an int one just because I like being smart over likable)
Step 2) Heritage: mountaineer Tengu. Ancestry Feat: Mariner's Flame
Step 3) Make sure you have the cantrips TK projectile and Haunting Hymn. Choose any concious mind OTHER THAN Oscillating Wave.
Step 4) Level 2 class Feat: Ancestral Mind turns Disrupt Undead (Mountaineer Tengu) and Produce Flame (Mariner's Flame) into psychic occult spells with your spellcasting mod as...

Try and convince your GM that you have dragon blood somehow. Get Adopted by the Tian-Dan and Dragon Spit acid splash.


The Raven Black wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
As has been pointed out, if you need to focus on using fire, you can just produce flame, then as your third action cast the 1 action activity thermal statis to flip the switch from cold back to fire again.
They errata/faq'd this to not work. None of the specific Oscillating Wave cantrips interact with conservation of energy at all. They don't flip (becaue they effect both cold/fire) and they don't flip your orientation.
Hm, in that case you'll need to pick up Psi Strike as a 4th level feat. It is a Mindshift free action that makes your next strike deal force (or mindshift-mental) damage. Because it is mindshift, oscillating wave lets you choose to deal fire/cold instead. Then you can just punch the air for cold damage and go back to frying that hydra next round. Or you could pick up the feat psi burst which is also mindshift, one action, does a bit of damage (reflex for half) and just throw some damage at a blade of grass or something if you don't want to hit what you are hitting.
This also probably doesn’t work. The mindshift trait under Oscilliting Wave let’s you add/remove energy, but Conservation of Energy also says that only spells must choose and are forced to swap orientation. Mindshift abilities, not being spells, look like they are free to pick cold/fire and don’t interact with what your spells have to do.

Nevermind, got it. Man, I kinda want to play this now:

Step 1) Play a Tengu with choose any subconcious mind (though I would go with an int one just because I like being smart over likable)
Step 2) Heritage: mountaineer Tengu. Ancestry Feat: Mariner's Flame
Step 3) Make sure you have the cantrips TK projectile and Haunting Hymn. Choose any concious mind OTHER THAN Oscillating Wave.
Step 4) Level 2 class Feat: Ancestral Mind turns Disrupt Undead (Mountaineer Tengu) and Produce Flame (Mariner's Flame) into psychic occult spells with

Try and convince your GM that you have dragon blood somehow. Get Adopted by the Tian-Dan and Dragon Spit acid splash.

Even simpler, pick up 'adapted cantrip' instead of Dragon Spit, that just needs plain human and not the Tian-Dan specifically. Alternatively, grab wizard MC at 4, although the scaling will be worse


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

After playing around with it a bit, I'm not sure how i feel about Infinite Eye.

It's definitely not the worst subclass or anything, and it has some cool stuff, but there are a few points that feel a little underbaked.

long and bad:
The granted spells make sense, but it's a little bummer none of the spells are new. They're all Occult.

Amped Detect Magic is kind of expensive for what it gives you, a conditional +1 to saves for one person for two actions doesn't feel like a great use of a focus point.

The un-amped Guidance enhancement is really meh, even considering that most of these abilities are pretty mediocre.

No real complaint about the Guidance amp. It's neat.

Glimpse Weakness is just force bolt/magic missile when amped, but it's conditional on the enemy getting hit and it's precision damage. These aren't huge issues, but they make the spell worse in small ways I kind of wish it scaled better than no-questions-asked force bolt. It really kind of feels like a 'what am I going to do with my third action' skill, which is a nice thing to have but doesn't really inspire.

Omnidirectional Scan is fine, but purely as a taste thing I dislike that it overlaps so much with Lore's psyche action in terms of what it does.

The amp is cool though. Can't go wrong with automatic knowledge and circumstance bonuses.

Forsee the Path immediately starts off on a bad note. It's a Perception check on a class with bad perception and no wisdom synergy, so it's a hard check... and then the GM is actively encouraged to make it harder.

The ability is interesting, but a little difficult from my experience to put into use since you need to land the spell and then the enemy needs to trigger reactions for it to all come together.

It's definitely not terrible or anything... but for me the lack of a damage cantrip feels awkward on a class where one of your main unique features is a damage bonus to spells. Yeah, you can just nab a normal cantrip from somewhere else, but a lot of fun with the Psychic is having unique damage options. It makes Unleash feel weirdly vestigial and it seems weirdly conspicuous that this is the only mind that doesn't have one.

It also feels like it has the Bard Problem, where it's filling a similar niche as a party buffer, but does it more conditionally and at a higher price (while also being more fragile).

... After all that maybe a weird take but I feel like my favorite feature of the whole CM has been the un-amped detect magic benefit, because it makes you so better at figuring out where magic is coming from. Although it's a little weird you can pinpoint magic on creatures but get nothing if the magic items are instead unattended.


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I agree with most of this.

As far as the Omnidirectional Scan overlap with Gathered Lore, at least it can be used out of psyche, and while it's more narrow in application (attacks against one target) it's more broad in the other benefits it can provide. It wouldn't be crazy to have both, although I probably wouldn't do it.

As far as new granted spells go, only Distant Grasp (Implosion), Oscillating Wave (all of them), and Unbound Step (Enlarge) get any granted spells that aren't occult. It's really just Oscillating Wave or bust if you want to expand. Or Halcyon Speaker archetype at worse arcane proficiency and locked into an intelligence build.

My problem with Glimpse Weakness it that the marginal benefit of amping it so small that I would never do it.


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In my opinion, Infinite Eye is maybe the best Conscious Minds if you have optimization in mind.

Amped Guidance is absolutely excellent. It's roughly equivalent to Lingering Inspire Courage both in effects and in role (before level 11, then it becomes better than Inspire Courage if you can afford the cost). All other Conscious Minds have to take it at level 6, you get it right away.

Glimpse Weakness is excellent unamped. It's better than a martial third attack in most cases. Amped, it gets as good as a martial secondary attack but now the cost gets higher. You also don't have to get Psy Burst as you have a similar effect available.
The great asset of Glimpse Weakness is that it's a 1-action psy cantrip with nice benefits when unamped. So it's the ideal candidate for amp feats (Mental Balm for example, which is great because you don't need Psy Burst).

The lack of attack cantrip is not much an issue as the best one stays Electric Arc.

The higher level cantrips are not incredible, but I don't see a lot of Conscious Minds with more than 2 good cantrips. And Guidance will certainly eat most of your Focus Points anyway so you won't use them often.

It may not be funny to play the Psychic this way, but in my opinion that's a very effective way of playing one.


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My main problem is usually with Distant Grasp, you only see damage increase on amped Telekinetic Projectile when you are level 3, Telekinetic Rend starts the same damage as an electric arc but scales slower, mage hand actually has a niche.

Vector Screen is like wall of wind, cool and effective in rare situations. Then we have spiritual weapon that don't gain benefit from unleash.

Silent Whisper is probably the most solid, message is good and shatter mind is the best AoE option o psychic. Infinite Eye is right after with the rest lagging way behind.


Kyrone wrote:

My main problem is usually with Distant Grasp, you only see damage increase on amped Telekinetic Projectile when you are level 3, Telekinetic Rend starts the same damage as an electric arc but scales slower, mage hand actually has a niche.

Vector Screen is like wall of wind, cool and effective in rare situations. Then we have spiritual weapon that don't gain benefit from unleash.

Silent Whisper is probably the most solid, message is good and shatter mind is the best AoE option o psychic. Infinite Eye is right after with the rest lagging way behind.

I think for Telekinetic Rend you have to factor in hitting more than 2 enemies. Especially with level 5 when you get an additional area it should be a given to hit 3 enemies, if available and likely even more. And each one more makes the unleash Bonus extra worth it. But yeah I wish they buffed the damage more from playtest or at least got rid of the +2 scaling.


Kyrone wrote:
Silent Whisper is probably the most solid, message is good and shatter mind is the best AoE option o psychic. Infinite Eye is right after with the rest lagging way behind.

I find that both are quite equivalent. The drawback of Silent Whisper is that you get nothing before level 6. Message is quite useless before level 7 and then it's still worse than Guidance (that you should get at 6 if you have optimization in mind). Shatter Mind is strong, even if it's hard to position a cone so it's a bit situational (unless you accept to hit your allies every now and then).

Also, Unbound Step seems bad but there are 2 gems. At level 7, Warp Step is a one action level 4 Dimension Door. So it's absolutely massive.
And Tesseract Tunnel has a lot of uses, even if most of them are more tactical than pure numbers. Still, being able to teleport the whole party and to play with the battlefield configuration can be really strong in the right hands (I must admit, I have hard time determining if it's really strong or just a fun spell, it's the only build that play that much with party positioning, but I think it's really worth the try).


SuperBidi wrote:
Shatter Mind is strong, even if it's hard to position a cone so it's a bit situational (unless you accept to hit your allies every now and then).

Shatter Mind only hits enemies, but the thought in general is still valid. Unless you have a straight battle with enemies being clustered in one single direction, Telekinetic Rend can hit more enemies, because you can place the burst wherever.


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SuperBidi wrote:


The great asset of Glimpse Weakness is that it's a 1-action psy cantrip with nice benefits when unamped. So it's the ideal candidate for amp feats (Mental Balm for example, which is great because you don't need Psy Burst).

You cant Amp Glimpse weakness with Mental balm.

mental balm:

Quote:
You can use this amp only on a psi cantrip that targets or affects you or one or more of your allies and doesn't target or affect any enemies.

The same is with the majority of extra Amps. They usually require either a 2 action cantrip or a saving throw/attack cantrip, for which Glimpse doesn't qualify.

Remove presence doesnt work (spell attack/saving throw)
Psychic ire doesnt work (2 actions)
Whispering steps doesnt work (2 actions AND spell attack/save)
Homing beacon doesnt work (save/spell attack)
Shatter space doesn't work (2 actions)

In fact, the ONLY amp that works with Glimpse is Inertia barrier... which gives Psysical resistance to either the target or you.


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Xenocrat wrote:


As far as new granted spells go, only Distant Grasp (Implosion), Oscillating Wave (all of them), and Unbound Step (Enlarge) get any granted spells that aren't occult.

I missed that Tangible Dream gets Blade Barrier. I didn't realize that was a force spell not on the occult list.


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Karmagator wrote:
Shatter Mind only hits enemies, but the thought in general is still valid. Unless you have a straight battle with enemies being clustered in one single direction, Telekinetic Rend can hit more enemies, because you can place the burst wherever.

I missed that, then I remove my comment. In general, after a round of battle, enemies tend to be cluttered with allies, which is the perfect moment to cast it if you made sure to stay in the back.

Still, there's a question about the 60-foot cone. If it's a mistake and if it is supposed to be a line, then the spell loses a lot (there's no point in using a line if you can't hit allies). Still a very strong spell.

shroudb wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:


The great asset of Glimpse Weakness is that it's a 1-action psy cantrip with nice benefits when unamped. So it's the ideal candidate for amp feats (Mental Balm for example, which is great because you don't need Psy Burst).

You cant Amp Glimpse weakness with Mental balm.

You're right, I missed that, too. So it'll be for Guidance, only. It's less interesting.

The Psychic has a lot of very precise interactions. I made a few mistakes when reading it, it doesn't happen that often to me when reading other classes.


SuperBidi wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
Shatter Mind only hits enemies, but the thought in general is still valid. Unless you have a straight battle with enemies being clustered in one single direction, Telekinetic Rend can hit more enemies, because you can place the burst wherever.

I missed that, then I remove my comment. In general, after a round of battle, enemies tend to be cluttered with allies, which is the perfect moment to cast it if you made sure to stay in the back.

Still, there's a question about the 60-foot cone. If it's a mistake and if it is supposed to be a line, then the spell loses a lot (there's no point in using a line if you can't hit allies). Still a very strong spell.

shroudb wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:


The great asset of Glimpse Weakness is that it's a 1-action psy cantrip with nice benefits when unamped. So it's the ideal candidate for amp feats (Mental Balm for example, which is great because you don't need Psy Burst).

You cant Amp Glimpse weakness with Mental balm.

You're right, I missed that, too. So it'll be for Guidance, only. It's less interesting.

The 60' cone on Shatter Mind seems intentional. The spell is clearly modeled after Ki Blast, which has a 60' option (that requires a third action in that case).

Mental Balm across all psi cantrip options from all conscious minds can apply to Shield, Thermal Stasis, and Ghostly Shift as well as Guidance. Message, too, technically, if you like to talk to yourself; you are a valid target. Only Distant Grasp doesn't natively get a cantrip that qualifies.

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