Premature discussion about the Psychic


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Xenocrat wrote:
Oscilling Wace

Hmmm... If you meant Oscillating Mace, you've piqued my interest. ;)


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graystone wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Oscilling Wace
Hmmm... If you meant Oscillating Mace, you've piqued my interest. ;)

New character name... Wace Mindu


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Verzen wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Kinda forgot about staff of divination. Probably gonna be the standard for oscillating wave blasters. Imaginary weapon users are probably best off poaching reach spell for that.
You can't combine an amp with metamagic (it's part of the amp rules), so no reach spell on Imaginary Weapon in any sense that matters.
Didn't catch that. Woe to the melee psychic build. I don't want to be anywhere near enemies with 6 hitpoints and no armor. Maybe worth it if you're hasted and can skirmish with it.
I'm still tempted to go all in on the melee Psychic just because the idea is super cool to me. Champion archetype for full plate and the resiliency feat and it... might be doable? Maybe.
Do Champion with psychic dedication using imaginary weapon as your cantrip.

You really, really don't want to do that. While you can thankfully use it for your psychic spellcasting, Charisma is not the champions key ability, so even if you stack it hard, you will be 1 or more behind for most of the game. Add to that the fact that you will only get expert in occult spellcasting at level 12 and master at 18, your attack modifier will be anaemic.

The Codex Astartes sadly does not support this action :(


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The reverse sounds pretty neat though, getting heavy armor, a strong reaction as further incentive to be in melee and use spells like Imaginary Weapon.

Alternatively you can make use of Psi Strikes which works on cantrips if you want to swing your real sword.

Scarab Sages

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it auto-scales to expert at 13 without an extra feat.

Level 10: Any Psychic Feat, don't buff strength anymore, Con, Int, Wis, Charisma
Level 11:Whatever you want.
Level 12: ANy Psychic feat
Level 13: Finally that adopted feat pays off when we can grab Mountain's Stoutness and get double toughness.

That's all I've got. Even then this build should sit back and play buff/support against the big monsters, and should only run into combat when fighting against a bunch of mooks. Any thoubghts?


VampByDay wrote:

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it auto-scales to expert at 13 without an...

The strength is mostly wasted if you plan on using melee cantrips in the first place. I would prefer going with rogue and maxing out a chain shirt by 5th level if you start with

8 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 12 / 8. It's one point behind heavy but it's a little more manageable plus gives access to dread striker later on to support dark persona. Nasty accuracy with imaginary weapon that way. Probably human but you could make this work as a dwarf for the double toughness feat.


VampByDay wrote:
Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Wear splint mail and raise a shield for an AC of 17: you start with 15 gp so why not blow 14 gp to survive 1st level? Or that breastplate for a 16?


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VampByDay wrote:

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it auto-scales to expert at 13 without an...

GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.


Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.

I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens if you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

Scarab Sages

aobst128 wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it auto-scales

...

First of all, I call not having 15 movement speed worth it, but you can ignore that if you somehow manage to get longstrider (level 2) 1/day. And the plan was to squeeze every last AC out of the build I could, which meant plate mail. Plus high strength means we can have a decent athletics and get out of grapples, one of the great problems of casters.

Anyway, just a thought.

(BTW 164 HP at level 13. That's fun)

Scarab Sages

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graystone wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.
I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens is you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

Multitalented only lets you pick a CLASS archetype dedication feat. ANd the level 9 feat specifically lets you use your ancestry feat for a dedication feat.

Liberty's Edge

graystone wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.
I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens is you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

I believe it matters and I would not take the half-elf, but rather take another General feat to get Armor Proficiency so that Sentinel works without problem.

And go all dwarf with Unburdened Iron with a Full Plate.

Liberty's Edge

For Longstrider 2, Trick Magic Item and Assurance (Nature) will do the trick.


VampByDay wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since sentinel grants you proficiency in

...

Maxing out ac is generally a good idea. The problem with your build is that it's quite delayed. Only getting heavy at 9th. Probably best to just go with a charisma build and pick up champion dedication at 2nd and then get expert in heavy later without the need for sentinel. I could see that working out pretty well.


graystone wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.
I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens is you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

Feat prerequisites generally go from low level to high level, so I'd treat this granting armour the same. If you want it to affect Heavy take it at 10th or 12th.

Or just take Champion and then the feat at 14 for expert.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
VampByDay wrote:

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since

...

Agreed - it isn't worth super worrying about getting scaling armor proficiency before level 13/14. You could even just get heavy armor through human + general feats and then respec those with Multitalented + Diverse Armor Expert once you are level 14.

Works best for Cha psion but you can probably start with a 12 Str/Cha as an Int psychic and boost those to 14 a piece at level 5 to qualify for Multitalented at level 9, or just play a half-elf and ignore Strength entirely. Just gets tricky to get into the armor before 9 in that case.


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VampByDay wrote:

Been really trying to work hard to work out how to make a melee psychic and make them survivable because I want to make a tangible dream psychic that hits people with imaginary swords. It involves a LOT of jankyness and some if may not work depending on how you interpret the rules, but this is what I got so far. See if anyone else can chime in.

1)Start with 1/2 elf (you'll see why later) and choose to be adopted by Dwarves (you'll see why later). Choose optional flaw to reduce your Wisdom and Charisma by 2 so that you you can increase your Strength, Con, and Int. Background gives you a bonus to your strength and int, and Choose the disipline subconscious mind (Int based) and +2 to int, and then for your four free, choose strength, Con, Int, and recover your loss in Wisdom (sill saves are important)
Lvl 1 Str 16, Dex 10 Con: 14, Int: 18, Wis: 10, Chr 8

Level one you are super squishy, stand in the back and throw telekenetic projectiles or something.

Level 2, Grab sentinel dedication. Now you are proficient in Breastplate and your AC increases by 4. Also remember you can amp shield through tangible dream to give you three shield hits and let it turn into a sustained spell. Now you are only 1 AC behind most martials.

Level 3, grab toughness.

Level 4, any psychic feat you want.

Level 5, Elf ancestry feat for +5 movement speed. Increase Strength, Con, Int, Wisdom
(Str: 18, Dex: 10, Con, 16, Int: 18, Wis: 12, Chr: 8)

Level 6, Any psychic Feat you want

Level 7, Maybe fleet general feat?

Level 8: Any Psychic Feat you want

Level 9: Ancestry feat: Multitalented->Paladin dedication. Because you are a half/elf, you can ignore the charisma requirement. Now, this is where it gets tricky . . . and GM may disallows shenanigans. Because paladin gets you proficiency in all armors including light and medium, then sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor (it is, just, so does paladin). Since sentinel grants you proficiency in heavy armor, it auto-scales to expert at 13 without an...

if i was the GM i wouldn't allow mountain's stoutness out of adopted since i interpeted the feat as something that comes from the psysiology of dwarves rather than anything that you can learn by following their culture. The same way you dont grow wings because you've adopted pixies, I dont think you get sturdier because youve adopted dwarves.


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Eating that dwarven diet makes you stout!


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Xenocrat wrote:
Eating that dwarven diet makes you stout!

The stout makes you stout?


VampByDay wrote:
Multitalented only lets you pick a CLASS archetype dedication feat. ANd the level 9 feat specifically lets you use your ancestry feat for a dedication feat.

My question had NOTHING to do about altering/changing your picking Multitalented->Paladin dedication so I don't understand the post: what I as asking if you did everything the same except what I posted: Take another 2nd level feat. Take the multitalented the same. Retrain the 2nd level to something that grants armor proficiency.

EDIT: I do see an issue the what I said: you couldn't retrain the dedication at 2nd without finishing paladin first.

Guntermench wrote:
graystone wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.
I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens is you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

Feat prerequisites generally go from low level to high level, so I'd treat this granting armour the same. If you want it to affect Heavy take it at 10th or 12th.

Or just take Champion and then the feat at 14 for expert.

It's not a Feat prerequisite though: it's a if you have this then this happens. "If you already were trained in light armor and medium armor, you gain training in heavy armor as well." There is also no low to high order in place n the rules: at best you can argue you have to have one before the other but level order JUST means what relative power the feat has whe you take retraining into account: the game doesn't assume that that any feat is taken before another unless it's a prerequisite.


graystone wrote:


Guntermench wrote:
graystone wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.
I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens is you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

Feat prerequisites generally go from low level to high level, so I'd treat this granting armour the same. If you want it to affect Heavy take it at 10th or 12th.

Or just take Champion and then the feat at 14 for expert.

It's not a Feat prerequisite though: it's a if you have this then this happens. "If you already were trained in light armor and medium armor, you gain training in heavy armor as well." There is also no low to high order in place n the rules: at best you can argue you have to have one before the other but level order JUST means what relative power the feat has whe you take retraining into account: the game doesn't assume that that any feat is taken before another unless it's a prerequisite.

"If you were already" happens once: when you take the feat. It then grants you proficiency based on this. It then later increases proficiency again based on this.

Nowhere does it say anything that says this changes if you later gain light and medium proficiency.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:


Guntermench wrote:
graystone wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
GM interpretation indeed. Pretty sure Sentinel only gives you scaling proficiency in the armour types that it gave you when you took it, so in this case Light and Medium.
I always advocate that order doesn't matter or you end up with some wonky results. So what would you say happens is you take another feat at 2nd and then after 9th retrain your 2nd level feat to sentinel dedication? Or Armor Proficiency?

Feat prerequisites generally go from low level to high level, so I'd treat this granting armour the same. If you want it to affect Heavy take it at 10th or 12th.

Or just take Champion and then the feat at 14 for expert.

It's not a Feat prerequisite though: it's a if you have this then this happens. "If you already were trained in light armor and medium armor, you gain training in heavy armor as well." There is also no low to high order in place n the rules: at best you can argue you have to have one before the other but level order JUST means what relative power the feat has whe you take retraining into account: the game doesn't assume that that any feat is taken before another unless it's a prerequisite.
Nowhere does it say anything that says this changes if you later gain light and medium proficiency.

Respectfully disagree. It says nowhere 'at the time of taking this feat' or anything like that. Just "If you have light and medium armor proficiency, you gain heavy as well." Feats that have timing matter tend to call it out explicitly (I.e. if you later gain proficiency, this feat does not provide further benefits) or whatever. No such wording exists here.

"If you were already" happens once: when you take the feat. It then grants you proficiency based on this. It then later increases proficiency again based on this.


The addition of the word "already" definitely makes it a timing thing.

Scarab Sages

Guntermench wrote:
The addition of the word "already" definitely makes it a timing thing.

Well, I did prefence this with it being a bit janky and subject to DM interpretation, so there is that. But yeah, you could just retrain sentinel and pick up the level 14 paladin feat as well.

Same thing with GM interpetation for if Mountain Stoutness is a feat you can take as adopted or not. Technically the feat mentions nothing of biology and just says you are extra tough.

Anyway, that was my way of doing things. I did it that way because unleashing your mind as an discipline caster gives you +2 circumstance bonus to Ac so you don't have to waste actions on putting a shield. I forgot to put that reasoning into the original build. And yeah, it comes online late, but that was the best way I could figure to do things. This was a 'maximize every +1 I can get' sort of build, not a 'try to make it good enough' build.


VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
The addition of the word "already" definitely makes it a timing thing.

Well, I did prefence this with it being a bit janky and subject to DM interpretation, so there is that. But yeah, you could just retrain sentinel and pick up the level 14 paladin feat as well.

Same thing with GM interpetation for if Mountain Stoutness is a feat you can take as adopted or not. Technically the feat mentions nothing of biology and just says you are extra tough.

Anyway, that was my way of doing things. I did it that way because unleashing your mind as an discipline caster gives you +2 circumstance bonus to Ac so you don't have to waste actions on putting a shield. I forgot to put that reasoning into the original build. And yeah, it comes online late, but that was the best way I could figure to do things. This was a 'maximize every +1 I can get' sort of build, not a 'try to make it good enough' build.

I see. If that was how it worked, I definitely see why you would stick with the int build. Unfortunately, you do need to spend an action to get the +2. You can only do so while unleashed is the thing.


With that in mind, I think the best route to be as tanky as possible would be champion dedication at 2nd, pick up shield block at some point and get bastion once you can pick another dedication for reactive shield. Another +2 AC in melee. Just takes up a hand.

Scarab Sages

aobst128 wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
The addition of the word "already" definitely makes it a timing thing.

Well, I did prefence this with it being a bit janky and subject to DM interpretation, so there is that. But yeah, you could just retrain sentinel and pick up the level 14 paladin feat as well.

Same thing with GM interpetation for if Mountain Stoutness is a feat you can take as adopted or not. Technically the feat mentions nothing of biology and just says you are extra tough.

Anyway, that was my way of doing things. I did it that way because unleashing your mind as an discipline caster gives you +2 circumstance bonus to Ac so you don't have to waste actions on putting a shield. I forgot to put that reasoning into the original build. And yeah, it comes online late, but that was the best way I could figure to do things. This was a 'maximize every +1 I can get' sort of build, not a 'try to make it good enough' build.

I see. If that was how it worked, I definitely see why you would stick with the int build. Unfortunately, you do need to spend an action to get the +2. You can only do so while unleashed is the thing.

Ah, I see. Well, a lot of this could be solved then going charisma with Wandering Revierie, as that one gives you a one-action concealment (25% chance to just staight up miss, even on a crit) is another solid defensive buff. Then you can ignore all the Charisma shenanigans multiclass for paladin and pick it up at level 2. Will miss all those Juicy skill proficiencies though.


Pyrurge wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
Wow, the glimpse weakness amp is just genuinely terrible. At level 17, the best it will ever get, you get a whooping 7.5 average damage over the unamped version. On one target, once. That is literally never a good investment. Even at level 1 and two you have guidance.
Amped glimpse weakness is basically a delayed force bolt with potential to crit, which is not that bad. Not worth it over the unamped glimpse weakness though, I agree. Just highlights how good the base cantrip is.

It could be I am missing something (and please let me know if I am), but is there any reason why you cannot cast Glimpse Weakness 3 times on the same target for your turn (using amped as desired), so that the next hit on the creature triggers all three? The duration is 1 minute, the spell doesn't say you can't target a creature that is already under its effect.

I don't know if that makes it any better per se.

Scarab Sages

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Orwi11 wrote:
Pyrurge wrote:
Karmagator wrote:
Wow, the glimpse weakness amp is just genuinely terrible. At level 17, the best it will ever get, you get a whooping 7.5 average damage over the unamped version. On one target, once. That is literally never a good investment. Even at level 1 and two you have guidance.
Amped glimpse weakness is basically a delayed force bolt with potential to crit, which is not that bad. Not worth it over the unamped glimpse weakness though, I agree. Just highlights how good the base cantrip is.

It could be I am missing something (and please let me know if I am), but is there any reason why you cannot cast Glimpse Weakness 3 times on the same target for your turn (using amped as desired), so that the next hit on the creature triggers all three? The duration is 1 minute, the spell doesn't say you can't target a creature that is already under its effect.

I don't know if that makes it any better per se.

A general rule of the game seems to be that the same spell doesn't stack. For example if a fighter with multiple Reactions got the shield spell somehow, I would rule that he couldn't cast shield three times and then use his reaction to pop his shields one at a time.


VampByDay wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
The addition of the word "already" definitely makes it a timing thing.

Well, I did prefence this with it being a bit janky and subject to DM interpretation, so there is that. But yeah, you could just retrain sentinel and pick up the level 14 paladin feat as well.

Same thing with GM interpetation for if Mountain Stoutness is a feat you can take as adopted or not. Technically the feat mentions nothing of biology and just says you are extra tough.

Anyway, that was my way of doing things. I did it that way because unleashing your mind as an discipline caster gives you +2 circumstance bonus to Ac so you don't have to waste actions on putting a shield. I forgot to put that reasoning into the original build. And yeah, it comes online late, but that was the best way I could figure to do things. This was a 'maximize every +1 I can get' sort of build, not a 'try to make it good enough' build.

I see. If that was how it worked, I definitely see why you would stick with the int build. Unfortunately, you do need to spend an action to get the +2. You can only do so while unleashed is the thing.
Ah, I see. Well, a lot of this could be solved then going charisma with Wandering Revierie, as that one gives you a one-action concealment (25% chance to just staight up miss, even on a crit) is another solid defensive buff. Then you can ignore all the Charisma shenanigans multiclass for paladin and pick it up at level 2. Will miss all those Juicy skill proficiencies though.

Wandering reverie could definitely fit thematically too as you could just have vivid daydreams/ delusions of being a chivalrous knight. When you unleash, it's a totally different persona.


VampByDay wrote:
Stuff

Oh, I know you did. My original statement was just to expand why it's GM interpretation.


Guntermench wrote:

"If you were already" happens once: when you take the feat. It then grants you proficiency based on this. It then later increases proficiency again based on this.

Nowhere does it say anything that says this changes if you later gain light and medium proficiency.

If "when" depends on feat order then retraining changes when. If feat order is meaningless then what you say in this quote would be true. This was the point of my question because you said "Feat prerequisites generally go from low level to high level, so I'd treat this granting armour the same" because if this is true then a retrained lower feat happens before higher feat and should change "If you were already" as already goes "from low level to high level". You can't have anything really set in stone when retraining is a default assumption.


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It occurs to me that a class with legendary proficiency in occult casting, light armor, and acceptable HP already exists. Bard/Psychic might be the best way to go; it's certainly the simplest!


Arachnofiend wrote:
It occurs to me that a class with legendary proficiency in occult casting, light armor, and acceptable HP already exists. Bard/Psychic might be the best way to go; it's certainly the simplest!

If you like going with high Charisma, that's certainly a good combo.


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I love the feat selection for psychics. Seems like a good omen for new caster classes moving forward


WWHsmackdown wrote:
I love the feat selection for psychics. Seems like a good omen for new caster classes moving forward

With the caveat that I've had limited opportunity to truly map out all the possibilities, I'm a lot more torn on this topic. Looking at the bard, cleric and wizard lists, those seem a lot more spicy.

A lot of the feat amps (especially the offensive ones) don't seem to be worth it for the opportunity cost alone. Pretty much all the Unleash Psyche additions are also borderline unusable, as they will usually hit your entire party as well. Also, no Effortless Concentration with the amount sustained stuff you can have? No duration increases for Unleash Psyche until level 20 either.

That said, there are a lot of extremely cool feats here. Remove Presence allows you to support with impunity in combat or pull a fast one out of combat (ninja vanish). Cranial Detonation is just hilarious and even quite effective.

A lot of this obviously has to do with the fact that many other casters have had at least 2 rounds of feats and therefore a lot more options, so the comparison is somewhat unfair.


I like the amp feat that will do aoe slashing damage but it lacks the mindshift trait so it's a missed opportunity for oscillating wave.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm not a huge fan of most of the amp feats. Sort of feels like a lot of them are stuck in the playtest paradigm of having an almost endless font of focus points... but with so many naturally useful amps simply coming from your class features it's hard to justify investing in more.

Like a lot of them feel like options that would be neat to have sometimes, but not options that are so amazing I'm willing to spend a feat and give up my normal spell amp in order to use it.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of most of the amp feats. Sort of feels like a lot of them are stuck in the playtest paradigm of having an almost endless font of focus points... but with so many naturally useful amps simply coming from your class features it's hard to justify investing in more.

Like a lot of them feel like options that would be neat to have sometimes, but not options that are so amazing I'm willing to spend a feat and give up my normal spell amp in order to use it.

I agree, the feat cost just doesn't end up being worth it except with Remove Presence.

Being able to just completely erase yourself from an enemy's perception for a focus point may be the best defense a squishy caster could ever hope for. Also depending on what is considered a hostile action you may still be able to do things like heal or buff while completely untargetable.

Dark Archive

Squiggit wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of most of the amp feats. Sort of feels like a lot of them are stuck in the playtest paradigm of having an almost endless font of focus points... but with so many naturally useful amps simply coming from your class features it's hard to justify investing in more.

Like a lot of them feel like options that would be neat to have sometimes, but not options that are so amazing I'm willing to spend a feat and give up my normal spell amp in order to use it.

It really does feel like Unleash Psyche was meant to remove the focus point cost for those two rounds. Maybe they feel the penalty was too low for that, but feared making it harsher because of the potential to waste those 2 rounds doing ineffectual things.


In regard of feats, I miss something to make the the psiquic able to cast spells without beign noticed it is a caster. Things like conceal spell and silent spell. I guess is less important because of the low number of spell slots that this class have, but the psiquic that uses his powers without nobody in the room knowing is too much iconic in the media to not have this kind of feats.


Old_Man_Robot wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

I'm not a huge fan of most of the amp feats. Sort of feels like a lot of them are stuck in the playtest paradigm of having an almost endless font of focus points... but with so many naturally useful amps simply coming from your class features it's hard to justify investing in more.

Like a lot of them feel like options that would be neat to have sometimes, but not options that are so amazing I'm willing to spend a feat and give up my normal spell amp in order to use it.

It really does feel like Unleash Psyche was meant to remove the focus point cost for those two rounds. Maybe they feel the penalty was too low for that, but feared making it harsher because of the potential to waste those 2 rounds doing ineffectual things.

Infinite focus would be just ugly: in 2 rounds you can slap on 3 layered Shields and Message for 3 Message Strikes... Having several good 1 action Amped cantrips makes me understand why it's not free focus.

But I agree that the amp feats don't excite me much: they are both too situational/niche and not competitive vs the normal amps. Now there might be some combo with one of them but I'm not seeing it off hand.


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I am a bit disappointed that from 12th level onwards the psychic gets the same amount of focus spells as a bard/sorcerer/wizard/clerics but a lot less spells.


siegfriedliner wrote:
I am a bit disappointed that from 12th level onwards the psychic gets the same amount of focus spells as a bard/sorcerer/wizard/clerics but a lot less spells.

That really seems like a mistake to me; surely the psychic should be getting three focus spells per fight at this point?


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I agree having a ton of focus points could get wild with some of the spells.

Although I agree with siegfriedliner too, it feels odd that the Psychic has a decisive focus point advantage for the first 11 levels of the game, but gets refocus 3 at the same level as everyone else (they don't even get it for free like oracles do).

It feels kind of odd to have their unique gimmick just abruptly vanish like that, imo.

Arachnofiend wrote:
That really seems like a mistake to me; surely the psychic should be getting three focus spells per fight at this point?

It definitely doesn't seem to be a mistake. They have a level 18 wellspring feat like every other caster except oracles and wizards.


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The new classes are up on nethys now! I can now put away the book and never look at it again: I had a hard time finding stuff in]. ;)


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graystone wrote:
The new classes are up on nethys now! I can now put away the book and never look at it again: I had a hard time finding stuff in]. ;)

I was browsing through it. Damn, Psychic Dedication brings a brand new way to grab super hot spell attack roll focus spells. It replaces Cleric Dedication for both Magus and Eldritch Archer to me.

Unfortunately, nothing that needed to be buffed...


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Squiggit wrote:

I agree having a ton of focus points could get wild with some of the spells.

Although I agree with siegfriedliner too, it feels odd that the Psychic has a decisive focus point advantage for the first 11 levels of the game, but gets refocus 3 at the same level as everyone else (they don't even get it for free like oracles do).

It feels kind of odd to have their unique gimmick just abruptly vanish like that, imo.

Arachnofiend wrote:
That really seems like a mistake to me; surely the psychic should be getting three focus spells per fight at this point?
It definitely doesn't seem to be a mistake. They have a level 18 wellspring feat like every other caster except oracles and wizards.

It seems clearly intentional but it does leave the psychic feeling distinctively weak at high levels when compared to its fellow spontaneous casting occult brothers (particularly the bard who has strong focus spell options on par with what the psychic has to offer as well as better defences, better at will options in the inspire line and more spells per day).


siegfriedliner wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

I agree having a ton of focus points could get wild with some of the spells.

Although I agree with siegfriedliner too, it feels odd that the Psychic has a decisive focus point advantage for the first 11 levels of the game, but gets refocus 3 at the same level as everyone else (they don't even get it for free like oracles do).

It feels kind of odd to have their unique gimmick just abruptly vanish like that, imo.

Arachnofiend wrote:
That really seems like a mistake to me; surely the psychic should be getting three focus spells per fight at this point?
It definitely doesn't seem to be a mistake. They have a level 18 wellspring feat like every other caster except oracles and wizards.
It seems clearly intentional but it does leave the psychic feeling distinctively weak at high levels when compared to its fellow spontaneous casting occult brothers (particularly the bard who has strong focus spell options on par with what the psychic has to offer as well as better defences, better at will options in the inspire line and more spells per day).

LOL what it leads to is you can have more focus points usable on a multiclass psychic than a full one. ;)


Do people think the Distortion Lens cantrip for Unbound Step psychic boosts/hampers range of spell/abilities that don't involve an attack roll?

The basic spell description refers to ranged attacks, but the heighten section refers to "abilities." Physical ranged strikes are definitely a yes, and ranged spell attacks, but what about other ranged abilities that attack you with a save? Can I use this to make me out of range of a monster ability?

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