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So yeah, to avoid crowding the Dark Archive PC thread, have this one.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, here is the reddit writeup of the KnowDirection preview. Give the person who went through this effort some love ^^.
Anyway, regarding some stuff from the original thread:
I know this is more of a PC concept thread, but just wanted to say that getting details on how unleash psyche works has me very excited for the class. Cantrip damage (really psychic damage in general) in the playtest was very low given how it was touted as a... Not exactly at will blasting class but definitely a class with a focus on cantrips and focus spells as their main tools.
Tracking bonuses and penalties round by round is a lot more exciting to me than having daily limits on things as well. I do worry that maybe stupefied is too debilitating a condition for when unleash psyche ends (way too many times I have failed DC 5 flat checks) but overall I still like it a lot.
The only thing that has me kinda bummed is Tangible Dream's cantrip stuff, they're not really my cup of tea. Everything else so far has me very much excited as well!
It certainly continues to look like something that goes a a ways away from the more traditional (aka "boring" form me) caster playstyle and role, which I find pretty interesting. Slots are much more like "use in case of emergency" than your main bread and butter.
Regarding Stupefied, it depends on how powerful the rest of the kit is and how well you can compensate with non-spell actions. Given that you can do some cantrip stuff during that time it doesn't hurt as much, but it will be pretty brutal. Definitely not the time for spell slots, though ^^. That said, a good deal of combats are only 3 rounds long, at my table at least, so it will probably happen somewhat infrequently anyway. I just hope it's just stupefied 1 like they said in the video not 2 (which I have seen from some people), that would be a bit overkill.
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I'm super stoked. A caster with higher cantrip damage (once unleashed) and supplemental slots is a dream come true. Spell like actions that don't use slots is a cherry on top. The only shame is that im sure psychic will have plenty of worthy feats so going full monk dedication to make the monk resiliency feat worthwhile is going to hurt. Not the worst problem to have though.
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I think you mean "precognitive discussion about the psychic."
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So yeah, to avoid crowding the Dark Archive PC thread, have this one.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, here is the reddit writeup of the KnowDirection preview. Give the person who went through this effort some love ^^.
Anyway, regarding some stuff from the original thread:
I know this is more of a PC concept thread, but just wanted to say that getting details on how unleash psyche works has me very excited for the class. Cantrip damage (really psychic damage in general) in the playtest was very low given how it was touted as a... Not exactly at will blasting class but definitely a class with a focus on cantrips and focus spells as their main tools.
Tracking bonuses and penalties round by round is a lot more exciting to me than having daily limits on things as well. I do worry that maybe stupefied is too debilitating a condition for when unleash psyche ends (way too many times I have failed DC 5 flat checks) but overall I still like it a lot.
The only thing that has me kinda bummed is Tangible Dream's cantrip stuff, they're not really my cup of tea. Everything else so far has me very much excited as well!
It certainly continues to look like something that goes a a ways away from the more traditional (aka "boring" form me) caster playstyle and role, which I find pretty interesting. Slots are much more like "use in case of emergency" than your main bread and butter.
Regarding Stupefied, it depends on how powerful the rest of the kit is and how well you can compensate with non-spell actions. Given that you can do some cantrip stuff during that time it doesn't hurt as much, but it will be pretty brutal. Definitely not the time for spell slots, though ^^. That said, a good deal of combats are only 3 rounds long, at my table at least, so it will probably happen somewhat infrequently anyway. I just hope it's just stupefied 1 like they said in the video...
I'm with you regarding tangible dream, light and shield are neat but not exactly defining a gameplay style. That being said, unless something changed from the playtest there should be another cantrip (one unique to each subclass) that we haven't heard about for tangible dream. I've heard murmurs of mind bullets or something, maybe that's it?
If I ever make a psychic, the spells I pick will mostly be for utility. Healing, curing curses, teleporting, that sort of stuff. Hopefully cantrips and focus spells, along with the various one action things that are unlocked while unleash psyche is active, is enough to have a good time and feel useful.
Stupified is a pain, but I think the tradeoff might be worth it. Besides, the roleplay part of it is really fun to me. To your point, it might be a good idea to build psychics with stupified in mind. One could look at it like investigator, how its a good idea to have a backup option when your devise a stratagem falls flat.
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I’m ecstatic. It’s the first PF2 caster I like the look of, and the thematics of the class are something I’ve dearly wanted.
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So yeah, to avoid crowding the Dark Archive PC thread, have this one.
For anyone who hasn't seen it, here is the reddit writeup of the KnowDirection preview. Give the person who went through this effort some love ^^.
Aww, thank you! But even more love to Vanessa and Luis from Know Direction, and Aaron for providing the sneak previews to them. They're all the best.
I'm with you regarding tangible dream, light and shield are neat but not exactly defining a gameplay style. That being said, unless something changed from the playtest there should be another cantrip (one unique to each subclass) that we haven't heard about for tangible dream. I've heard murmurs of mind bullets or something, maybe that's it?
Yeah, each Conscious Mind gets 2 psi cantrips based on cantrips from the Occult spell list (or outside of it, in the case of Oscillating Wave and Ray of Frost/Produce Flame), 1 unique psi cantrip only available to themselves, and 2 additional unique psi cantrips they apparently get automatically at higher levels. All of which can get Amp'd for more oomph.
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I really can’t understate how much happier I am with this than the playtest. Really sincere thanks to the devs for listening!
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Agreed. I was worried with the way the playtest retrospective changes were worded, but devs really pulled through. And there's still a ton we haven't seen!
The more I think about psychic the more I like it;
Spontaneous casting is very much preferred over prepared for me.
Being able to choose your casting stat opens up a lot more character concepts and races (though I do still wish wisdom was an option).
Occult is probably the strongest spell list, with the most utility.
Having a bunch of 1 action options is so good for casters, there were a lot of times playing a caster that I didn't have many good options after casting a spell.
And of course the cantrips, free refocus feats (I think that was said? Maybe it's just refocus 2 points from the get go if only amps were used), and unleash psyche.
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Honestly with all the psychic has going for it you could save all those spell slots for niche utility. 18 spell slots will feel like a luxury for that class.
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[...]
And of course the cantrips, free refocus feats (I think that was said? Maybe it's just refocus 2 points from the get go if only amps were used), and unleash psyche.
They kept the playtest thing of starting with 2 focus points and getting two back so long as you only used them for amps. And I'm pretty sure they'll have the same thing as the oracle with getting your third focus point for free as a level 11 class feature - I think they even vaguely mentioned it in the video. They are like the focus point class, so it would just make sense.
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Honestly with all the psychic has going for it you could save all those spell slots for niche utility. 18 spell slots will feel like a luxury for that class.
It certainly looks like the combination of conscious and unconscious mind will determine the main beats of your playstyle, instead of your spell list. Which is something I'm very much for.
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I really can’t understate how much happier I am with this than the playtest. Really sincere thanks to the devs for listening!
The thing I'm probably most happy about is that all those massive drawbacks seem to be gone and that each conscious mind now gets these exclusive small-ish passive benefits for each cantrip you get from it.
The new Message having longer range and no longer requiring direct line of effect or sight (only some way to get to the target) is easily my favourite so far. The shenangians will be glorious. KnowDirection's example was a few people sitting around a table and you telling your allies things. Not bad, but I think - depending how exactly it is worded - there is a lot more potential here. Message doesn't allow for a saving throw or anything. Unless the one on the other end is deaf they're hearing what you have to say, whether they want to or not. Picture a room that is thick with tension, as the various factions present mistrust each other. You are sitting about 300ft away with a telescope, looking through a window. Now you start telling some individuals things that may or may not be true (e.g. "hey, that guy over there has done you dirty" or "are these armed people out here yours, because they don't look friendly").
Your spells also do not have verbal components - I hope they kept that in, the special components were great - so casting stealthily isn't out of the picture. They still have audible manifestations - you can get your own soundtrack! - but those can be much less noticeable than babbling out loud. That's going to be fun.
In regards to Unleashing Psyche, I feel like the best way to make use of the feature is for finishing fights. You're still an Occult caster, just one with less fuel in the tank, and getting your key buffs and debuffs onto the field ASAP is still going to be the priority.
After you've spent the necessary slots to swing the math and have the fight proceeding favourably, then you Unleash and start closing the fight out with your heightened damage.
This means you're risking as little as possible on the stupefy. Unleashing as early as possible is a trap, since all it does is boost your damage on your less important spells; it doesn't make foes more likely to fail the saves you need them to fail.
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In regards to Unleashing Psyche, I feel like the best way to make use of the feature is for finishing fights. You're still an Occult caster, just one with less fuel in the tank, and getting your key buffs and debuffs onto the field ASAP is still going to be the priority.
After you've spent the necessary slots to swing the math and have the fight proceeding favourably, then you Unleash and start closing the fight out with your heightened damage.
This means you're risking as little as possible on the stupefy. Unleashing as early as possible is a trap, since all it does is boost your damage on your less important spells; it doesn't make foes more likely to fail the saves you need them to fail.
I think it is a lot more complicated than that. It depends on a number of factors, such as what playstyle you are going for, what subclass/feats you have, what slots you have left for the current situation, how long you expect the fight to take and what non-spell alternatives you have.
For example, the Emotional Acceptance psyche action (Restore Mind - heal or give bonus to saves) is something you want to do as often as possible, so Unleashing as early as possible is a priority. Blaster builds - which look like they will be a thing for multiple concious minds - really like more damage.
On the other side of the spectrum - at least going by the info info we have atm - if you are playing a Precise Discipline psychic with either Silent Whisper or Unbound Step, Unleash seems more of a "press to gtfo" button.
How and when to Unleash looks to be one of those things that is actually a lot more nuanced than it appears at first.
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One thing thats never clicked with me is when players say to save their big strong spells for the part in a fight where things look bleak. I understand saving them for a scary fight, and maybe I'm misinterpreting what others are saying, but firing off your biggest spells right away makes a lot more sense to me. Offense is the best defense, dealing with enemies as fast as you can could make encounters a lot easier. Just a playstyle difference I suppose.
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Hey! James Case just commented on the Psychic Spoilers write-up, and spoiled a new spell for each of the Conscious Minds. They all look pretty great!
Link to the comment can be found HERE.
Iiinteresting. I'm hoping for a blaster psychic so distant grasp, oscillating wave and tangible dream interest me most. Distant grasp looks pretty strong, a sustain cantrip is very cool. I prefer weaponless psychic so might not be the one for me, but who knows. Oscillating wave is a little confusing lol, that's going to have to be one we need more detail on. Tangible dream is cool, part of me was hoping to be able to actually create a scaling weapon one could then use to attack, but I knew that was a longshot.
I hope telekinetic rend is still in there somewhere, aoe cantrips are very rare and I was looking forward to using it.
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Looking through leaked feats one more time and I think the psychic has one of the best "issues" a class can have in 2e in that it's very difficult to archetype or dedicate out of the class. Much like the summoner, there's simply going to be a lot of fun, strong, or flavorful feats you're gonna want for your build. As much as I want a psychic monk to be my default psychic I might reserve that for a free archetype game. Parallel breakthrough is gonna be a great feat for getting all the tools you want in your kit. It seems like it lets you pick any cantrip from another conscious mind and get it's amped benefits (I wonder if it also gets the passive benefits). Can't wait to make a psychic! Kudos to you and the team, James.
Unless I'm missing a key detail, Isn't the stupefied condition a big downside even when using cantrips? Yes you deal between 2 and 20 more damage, which is a lot, but you get -1 to DC and attack rolls (roughly between a 8 and a 15% damage loss before adding the extra damage if my mental maths are half good) and 25% chance of loosing the cantrip completely. Am I missing something?
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Unless I'm missing a key detail, Isn't the stupefied condition a big downside even when using cantrips? Yes you deal between 2 and 20 more damage, which is a lot, but you get -1 to DC and attack rolls (roughly between a 5 and a 12% damage loss before adding the extra damage if my mental maths are half good) and 25% chance of loosing the cantrip completely. Am I missing something?
Turn 4 or nonexistent issue if you unleash late in a fight, so you can work around it. If there's still fighting to be had when it's happening I would focus on utility cantrip stuff/ other aiding actions. I wouldn't worry about attacking with spells or using spell slots when stupefied. It's a downside I'm willing to pay for the power it affords a caster chassis.
Unless I'm missing a key detail, Isn't the stupefied condition a big downside even when using cantrips? Yes you deal between 2 and 20 more damage, which is a lot, but you get -1 to DC and attack rolls (roughly between a 5 and a 12% damage loss before adding the extra damage if my mental maths are half good) and 25% chance of loosing the cantrip completely. Am I missing something?Turn 4 or nonexistent issue if you unleash late in a fight, so you can work around it. If there's still fighting to be had when it's happening I would focus on utility cantrip stuff/ other aiding actions. I wouldn't worry about attacking with spells or using spell slots when stupefied. It's a downside I'm willing to pay for the power it affords a caster chassis.
Wait, doesn't it happen instantly? Do you get stupefied later on?
You can only enter unleash psyche if you cast a spell the previous turn, and you can't have the stupified condition. Unleashing psyche is a free action, lasts for two turns, and gives you a damage bonus equal to two times the level of the spell you cast. Once unleash psyche is over, you gain the stupified condition (I believe stupified 1, and for 2 turns, but I'm not 100% on that).
You can only enter unleash psyche if you cast a spell the previous turn, and you can't have the stupified condition. Unleashing psyche is a free action, lasts for two turns, and gives you a damage bonus equal to two times the level of the spell you cast. Once unleash psyche is over, you gain the stupified condition (I believe stupified 1, and for 2 turns, but I'm not 100% on that).
Thanks, didn't know that. That makes it way, way better.
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Two rounds of unleash, then two rounds of stupefied.
Sustaining a spell or two can contribute while stupefied. There’s a cantrip that is sustained damage.
Remember also that in playtest we had feats that changes how unleash and it's drawback works. I believe this probably was kept. So don't worry too much about unleash drawback effects because the class probably will have different option to it.
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I really want to have very niche unleashes with really powerful effects on top. Thanks to the base unleash being solid and widely applicable I think there is a lot of room to get weird now.
I'm hyped beyond believe with this class. At first I was a bit disappointed that the Known Direction podcast didn't show as much as Nonat1 stream, but I think it is for the best, I can't stop thinking about this class and can't wait to get to play one.
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Casting Shield on someone else is a vector of mechanics the game hasn't super touched, so this makes me really love the idea of a Psychic that protects others.
I will say it feels more like a defensive version of a telekinetic conscious mind than it does dreams one, but since it's such a cool mechanical space to occupy and collectively there's a lot of dream vibes else where I'll take it with a smile.
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Casting Shield on someone else is a vector of mechanics the game hasn't super touched, so this makes me really love the idea of a Psychic that protects others.
I will say it feels more like a defensive version of a telekinetic conscious mind than it does dreams one, but since it's such a cool mechanical space to occupy and collectively there's a lot of dream vibes else where I'll take it with a smile.
I think combining this with the Catharsis Mage (whichever gives you an Emotional Support Person) would be a good backline buffer/support, sorta like a League of Legends Enchanter style of character. This class has so many build options, and we don't even know all the things it gets yet!
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I think combining this with the Catharsis Mage (whichever gives you an Emotional Support Person) would be a good backline buffer/support, sorta like a League of Legends Enchanter style of character. This class has so many build options, and we don't even know all the things it gets yet!Casting Shield on someone else is a vector of mechanics the game hasn't super touched, so this makes me really love the idea of a Psychic that protects others.
I will say it feels more like a defensive version of a telekinetic conscious mind than it does dreams one, but since it's such a cool mechanical space to occupy and collectively there's a lot of dream vibes else where I'll take it with a smile.
Yeah, I mean you run Soothe, some buffs, maybe slide on over to Blessed One for some Heal options.
It's a strong enough foundation that if you wanted to lean into true support, you legitimately could.
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I really like how versatile and modular the class seems to be. You want to blast? covered with cantrips with actually good damage and a way to get Fireball as an occult spell (I really want to play a high level Psychic with Fiery Body, that has to be super cool). Wanna support? Get the Aid subconscious mind, the psi cantrip that adds precision damage and some buff/debuff spells. Wanna go for nicher things like mobility or creature detection? Also covered.
The fact that they work similar to Bard in that they can snatch cantrips from other subclasses is a huge deal for me. The amount of customization this class is going to have is huge.
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With good reason too, psychic has a lot of ground to cover.
I kind of wish all casters this level of customization internal to the class. Versatile build design with a full caster really kind of throttles character concepts to their peaks.
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Hey! James Case just commented on the Psychic Spoilers write-up, and spoiled a new spell for each of the Conscious Minds. They all look pretty great!
Link to the comment can be found HERE.
>Imaginary Weapon
>short-range attack cantrip that attacks with a blade or club of shaped force....
.......
Yesssss, I can finally summon magical Force Guns and shoot people with them, Mami build here I come
Probably works pretty well for UBW too, now with increased Sword Throwing ability.
EDIT: Come to think of it, it would work pretty well for a low-end Gate of Babylon too.
Has anything been shown of the Multiclass Archetype?
Has anything been shown of the Multiclass Archetype?
Yes, you can find the full text in NoNat1s' video on the Thaumaturge - an accidental scroll by. Would link but on phone.
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Has anything been shown of the Multiclass Archetype?
Yeah, the whole thing got leaked due to scrolling from NoNat1s. Just to give a breakdown here:
Psychic Dedication (2nd): Requires either 14 INT or 14 CHA. You do not have a subconscious mind. You cast like a psychic, but your thought components are simple intentions. Pick a conscious mind, get the standard psi cantrip for it, with the normal benefits of it and the ability to amp it, but gain no other benefits for the conscious mind. You either gain a Focus Pool of 1 Point, or increase the number of Focus Points by 1. You Refocus via meditating about your new powers. Trained in occult spellcasting/spell DC. Your key ability score for psychic spellcasting is whichever required KAS you used to get the dedication (so either INT or CHA).
Basic Thoughtform (4th): 1st or 2nd level feat.
Basic Psychic Spellcasting (4th): Basic spellcasting benefits, pick from occult spell list or your granted spells from your conscious mind.
Advanced Thoughtform (6th): Pick a psychic feat, your psychic level is 1/2 your character level.
PSI Development (6th): Gain another psi cantrip from your conscious mind, either the other standard psi cantrip you didn't pick before, or the unique surface psi cantrip for your conscious mind. Gain their normal benefits and their ability to amp it. Increase your Focus Pool by 1 Point.
Expert Psychic Spellcasting (12th): Expert spellcasting benefits.
Master Psychic Spellcasting (12th): Master spellcasting benefits. And before you ask, yes, it says Feat 12. It's likely an editing mistake already marked for errata. It should probably be 18th level like everyone else's master spellcasting benefits feat.
Has anything been shown of the Multiclass Archetype?Yeah, the whole thing got leaked due to scrolling from NoNat1s. Just to give a breakdown here:
Psychic Dedication (2nd): Requires either 14 INT or 14 CHA. You do not have a subconscious mind. You cast like a psychic, but your thought components are simple intentions. Pick a conscious mind, get the standard psi cantrip for it, with the normal benefits of it and the ability to amp it, but gain no other benefits for the conscious mind. You either gain a Focus Pool of 1 Point, or increase the number of Focus Points by 1. You Refocus via meditating about your new powers. Trained in occult spellcasting/spell DC. Your key ability score for psychic spellcasting is whichever required KAS you used to get the dedication (so either INT or CHA).
Basic Thoughtform (4th): 1st or 2nd level feat.
Basic Psychic Spellcasting (4th): Basic spellcasting benefits, pick from occult spell list or your granted spells from your conscious mind.
Advanced Thoughtform (6th): Pick a psychic feat, your psychic level is 1/2 your character level.
PSI Development (6th): Gain another psi cantrip from your conscious mind, either the other standard cantrip you didn't pick before, or the unique surface psi cantrip for your conscious mind. Gain their normal benefits and their ability to amp it. Increase your Focus Pool by 1 Point.
Expert Psychic Spellcasting (12th): Expert spellcasting benefits.
Master Psychic Spellcasting (12th): Master spellcasting benefits.
Just to call out: this archetype does not have a Breadth feat, which feels somewhat appropriate given the fewer spell slots.
How many spells/level does the Psychic get? Is it still 2?
How many spells/level does the Psychic get? Is it still 2?
Yep, still 2. But the conscious mind text implies you get 2 more psi cantrips automatically as you level up. So you'll start with 6 total cantrips (3 regular, 3 psi cantrips), and end with 8 (and possibly one more via a feat to poach another conscious mind's psi cantrip).
It's enough spellcasting, but it does sort of dash my dream of trying a Wellspring Magic Psychic. You're still going to need some spell slots to unleash your psyche I think.
It's enough spellcasting, but it does sort of dash my dream of trying a Wellspring Magic Psychic. You're still going to need some spell slots to unleash your psyche I think.
Depends if cantrips count or not for unleashing psyche
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It's enough spellcasting, but it does sort of dash my dream of trying a Wellspring Magic Psychic. You're still going to need some spell slots to unleash your psyche I think.Depends if cantrips count or not for unleashing psyche
What we were told is that you just need to cast a spell. I think they would have specified that you need to use a spell slot were that the case.
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What we were told is that you just need to cast a spell. I think they would have specified that you need to use a spell slot were that the case.It's enough spellcasting, but it does sort of dash my dream of trying a Wellspring Magic Psychic. You're still going to need some spell slots to unleash your psyche I think.Depends if cantrips count or not for unleashing psyche
Yeah, they've clarified that Unleashed Psyche works with any spell, Spell Slot or Cantrip, so long as it's a Psychic spell (so it WON'T work with multiclass spells).
Yeah, they've clarified that Unleashed Psyche works with any spell, Spell Slot or Cantrip, so long as it's a Psychic spell (so it WON'T work with multiclass spells).What we were told is that you just need to cast a spell. I think they would have specified that you need to use a spell slot were that the case.It's enough spellcasting, but it does sort of dash my dream of trying a Wellspring Magic Psychic. You're still going to need some spell slots to unleash your psyche I think.Depends if cantrips count or not for unleashing psyche
Wonderful. Psychic spell slots are just creme and I love it.
Yeah, they've clarified that Unleashed Psyche works with any spell, Spell Slot or Cantrip, so long as it's a Psychic spell (so it WON'T work with multiclass spells).What we were told is that you just need to cast a spell. I think they would have specified that you need to use a spell slot were that the case.It's enough spellcasting, but it does sort of dash my dream of trying a Wellspring Magic Psychic. You're still going to need some spell slots to unleash your psyche I think.Depends if cantrips count or not for unleashing psyche
Adapted Cantrip, for it's unique property of adding it to your lost rather than being innate, is gonna get reeeeeeeeeal popular among psychics
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All of this is pending change looking at the final numbers, but wow. So far my biggest complaint about the Psychic is that it looks so cool and has so much built into its chassis that... it kinda makes me feel bad about the more vanilla casters.
I'm gonna have trouble going back to my Witch (even with
Midnightoker's fantastic class updates) while waiting for dark archive to come out.
Are there any archetypes you can think of that would go well with this? (Yay for Free Archetype ^^)
Originally, I wanted to go Wellspring Mage, but Bloodlords doesn't look like the right AP for that. Otherwise, it would probably work quite well, as you have a lot of other things besides spell slots. There are some other problems, though. At level 1 RAW you get nothing (you don't have a spell slot to spend, so you cannot get one back) and still lose a spell slot & cantrip. And you don't get a 10th level spell until you take the 20th level feat. So yeah, if you want to play it, I recommend talking with your GM about fixing that.
Other than that, rogue goes with everything. Light armour, so your AC isn't as anaemic, and skills for days. Not to mention the feat list is amazing. Nimble Dodge and Mobility are easy picks.
Of course, any more social archetypes - dandy, celebrity, etc. - or regional archetypes if the campaign calls for it.
Anything that gives spell slots or focus spells doesn't seem great, as it has anti-synergy with your class stuff.
I gotta admit the psychic had zero appeal to me when it was first announced and even during the playtest. But damn it looks awesome, super flavorful and versatile. And it's seems to be a runner up for strongest dedication class 2
Now I'm curious. Which dedications do you consider to be the strongest right now?