That it stacks with fast healing is nice, I'll give you that.
My issue with small amounts of thp is the same as Ninja disscribed. There's a risk that it doesn't change anything, quite often.
I have a similar beef with small amounts of aoe/splash (like the inexorable conflux spell). If the splash damg doesn't kill a mook, nor changes the threshold needed to kill it - by reducing the amount of hits needed from X to X-1, then it didn't actually do anything.
Either way, I'm not offering anything new to this thread anymore. Thanks for a lively debate people and best of luck to you gargoyle.
If your last ttrpg was 5e I'm sure you'll enjoy the Magus. It's a Gish that actually plays like one at it's baseline. And it's just imo one of the cooler classes there is.
Oh and just to dispell any overall concern:
Yup. Exactly. That was the point I made a few pages ago. And that's what alot of this thread has been about right? That alot of the hybrid studies aren't really that interesting or just not that great.
Laughing shadow is solid if you ignore almost all of your subclass and go for a 2hander. The conflux spell is sweet and the lvl 10 support feat is pretty good as well.
Iron on the other hand have a horrible conflux spell and the cascade feature is pretty underwhelming. Half your lvl as thp, while in cascade is just kinna eh. If it was fast healing then maybe we would have something.
It feels like people go:
'oh big 2hander as a Gish, that's my jam! Inexorable it is then' without checking out what the actual subclass offers. At least that's how I reacted when I got SoM. Then I read the spells and feats, and realized I thought they were all super meh.
Using a 2hander doesn't mean inexorable is the only option.
Targe actually delivers pretty well on its concept. It's main issue is primarily 'why the hell would you make a tank Magus anyway?'.
That's my point. If you build your laughing shadow as a quasi dex char with a 1h and a free hand, it's gonna suck. I tried it and it's just not good.
But as I mentioned a few pages back, it feels super unintuitive to ignore everything about the subclass' cascade features. That doesn't mean it isn't good tho, just not how you would imagine it to be good. And most certainly not how it was intended to be played either
Eh, spell design isn't my strong suit, but if it had to be balanced ? Something like:
Sudden jolt. Cantrip 1ap, range: touch -
You charge yourself with a sudden jolt of electricity. Make a melee spell attack against a target within range. On a succes the target takes 1d4 + your spellcasting modifier electricity damage. Prior to making the attack roll or immediately after you may move half your speed in any direction as the electric currents moves you violently.
The wording is messed up but you get the gist.
Wouldn't archer/fighter just be 2 feats for PBS?
And that's if you really need to circumvent volley. That's a bit harder to discuss. YMMV but I don't consider it that crippling.
And factoring in cascade as a damage + for the melee Magus might be wrong in the first place.
I assume you want cascade up asap (if at all) so maybe cantrip + cascade or 1ap cantrip + cascade + stride.
Meanwhile the starlit is already spellstriking.
At lvl 5 cascade is still +1 damg pr hit (on a class that makes few but hard hits. Aka not a great synergy). Meanwhile a gouging claw at lvl 5 is what ? 3d6 + 3 (16 int assumed) damg
So 3d6+3 = 13.5 AVG damg. So 13.5 strikes for cascade to even out.
Even more so because the Magus is the alpha strike class. Striking runes and a high str mod rewards multiple attacks.
And a d12 melee Magus is a non reach d8 medium armor class that suffers (way more than most classes) from AoO.
And as a last comment: sure forums can become whiteroom but stuff like cascade is pretty easy to look at in a whiteroom. It's a flat damage increase. A bad one. On the martial class least prone to making more than 1 attack. And it scales poorly as well.
Well let's hope the vault have some impressive melee weapons. 'Cause that d10 propulsive hobgoblin bow they teased would make non starlit hard to justify at that point.
I guess Magus is in a better place than other post CRB classes tho. Both new weapons and spells can go a long way to address some of their issues.
A 1ap damage cantrip that has a movement rider would be godsend.
I'm sorry for derailing your thread for a spell. But this is some advice I would give most people who are new to a system:
Try to play whatever concept you want and do your best to make it work. The forums are great and it's always cool to get some advice.
BUT peeping behind the mechanics curtain tends to give one tunnel vision. Once you know something is deemed below average or unoptimized, it's very hard to not see it in that light.
Take the infamous flickmace in pf2e. Is it better than any other 1hand weapon in the game if you aren't going for finesse ? Yes. Is it just a better Warhammer ? Yes.
Does that make your dwarven fighter with a Warhammer bad or even remotely below par? No, not at all.
I realize I'm just saying ignorance is bliss in a roundabout fashion. But it can truly become a detriment to one's enjoyment of the game to over optimize based on others (ours) opinion. Mind you, I totally agree with Ninja, Squiq and humble but still - keep that in mind.
Fun anecdotal "evidence":
So I made a deal with him - everything I suggest he has to listen to without going to the site first. Turns out he likes ALOT of 4/10 rated things. It surprised and annoyed him, but hey, now he can form an actual opinion himself.
Edit: my current backup chars are a melee inventor and a drifter gunslinger with a high str because Warhammer + big gun = bad'ass.
You came from 5e right ?
So to put it into perspective:
When people are saying a melee Magus sucks compared to a starlit span Magus it's akin to a zealot barb that went str with their ASI and a zealot barb that went GWM with their ASI.
Neither of them suck at all, but the latter will pull ahead.
It is not in the realm of GWM zealot Vs Berserker that went savage attacker.
Pf2e has tighter math, but optimizing and min/maxing is still a thing. So a 10% damage difference is alot from that perspective.
However action Econ issues are way more noticeable than slightly below average damage, and for some that can lead to a frustrating experience.
I haven't played it yet and full disclosure:This was actually advice given to me by a member called Exocist.
I, like you, thought of laughing shadow as a 1h + freehand medium/light armor char. BUT the thing is you don't need a free hand really, and you don't got the action econ room for making trips, grapples etc.
The movespeed from laughing shadow is unfortunately status and dosent stack with longstrider, which you should get a wand of asap - so missing that part is null pretty early.
So the main 'weakness' of the build (imo) is that it feels very unintuitive and.. annoying ? To not use your class features.
The build is super solid, and being able to gap close or reposition would most likely be more valuable for your survival than some mesely thp (which again requires Cascade to be activated. Which you already know how I feel about).
I would argue that it's both stronger and more fun than an Iron build. But keep in mind that I find both Irons feats and conflux spell super weak
I feel like tank Magus is something you'd only play if you had a very specific concept in mind. Like the inventor tank.
Edit: and yeah Bastion feels almost mandatory for both
I didn't know about the FA restriction, but yeah wizard all day then.
Regarding moving enemies and truestrike i think squiggit means it's a 3AP combo, so it's hard to pull off on mobile enemies. Since you most likely need to spend an action on stride to gap close. Prior to haste that can be an issue.
Just to clarify: I didn't mean you shouldnt ever use cascade. Just that's it's not as core as one would think a core feature would/should be. As mentioned, if you can pre buff then great. If it can trigger weaknesses, great.
Rather or not the temp hp is gonna make or a break an encounter ? Eh, maybe using that ap on a stride/truestrike would end the encounter earlier thus negating the need for facetanking.
Best debuff to apply is dead n all that.
The extra damage is so low it that it takes a very long time for it to 'pay for itself' in terms of opportunity cost.
Can't remember if I posted this before but:
Stronger advanced ancestry weapons. Ive come to terms with humans being at the top of the pyramid. But strong ancestry weapons would bring other ancestries to closer to said top.
And I want stronger advanced weapons in general. Besides the flickmace, they rarely seen worth the investment.
I think the following is all solid advice:
- grab primal witch and life lesson with your FA. Familiar gives you an extra focus point in battle, you get more slots and life lesson is nice to have.
- stay using reach weapons. AoO will become a thing and they punish Magus hard. Plus the actual reach might save an action here or there.
- don't use arcane Cascade often. It's very underwhelming an costs an action. Unless you can pre buff, you can almost always spend that action on something better. Really, it's that meh. Oh, do use it to target weaknesses.
- grab armor training with a general feat, and grab sentinel at lvl 10 with your FA (prior to your medium armor scaling) then retrain the general feat
- don't go for power attack. PA is very mediocre at best, and def not worth neither the opportunity cost (your FA) or the resources (assuming humble gamer is thinking of true strike into PA).
- Try to calculate around being able to spellstrike every round. While there will be some rounds where you simply can't or shouldn't a Magus that isn't SS'ing is just a bad fighter.
Hope this helps
That sounds great, but it has an inherent risk of becoming the 'mediocre' at all roles class.
As it obviously can't be a full martial/caster/Smonkey while attuned to the right spirit.
Channeling a certain spirit thus changing your primary role sounds awesome. Like the ancestor oracle, but not punishing and random.
As I mentioned in another thread were you asked the same question: The Shaman from grim dawn and wow are very much my jam.
But if they draw on more real world folklore I doubt that will happen.
Edit: And if they flesh out elemental weapon and overall support the melee kineticist a bit more on release, that design space seems very covered.
Eh precise strike dosent work with non finesseSo you are indeed forced into certain weapons, as you otherwise don't have a class anymore.
Same for investigator (and a strength build is hardly feasible on them either way).
So you cant use say a meteor hammer on a ruffian, even if you have mauler
I just hope they won't force me into a certain weapon type and/or psychical stat.
I heavily dislike the swashbuckler, rogue and investigator being forced into using finesse weapons.
Why can't I be a rogue with a Warhammer ?
I really just can't get worked up over a fantasy class' name. Barbarian and ruffian are hardly names with a heroic history either. But hey, here we are.
A divine inspired striker class with high mobility and a focus on single target Nova damg would be awesome tho.
Well the design space for an offensive version of the champion is certainly there.
So a gish ish divine striker would be cool.
The name proberly wouldn't be inquisitor due to the many reasons mentioned above, but since that is the only name we all can refer to for now can we maybe agree that the class can be done without the horrible baggage of actual inquisitors ?
It has a tendency to derail any discussion on what the class might look like in pf2e. But hey, if we can all agree to call it something else then great.
I like interceptor or avenger, but whatever gets the discussion back on track works for me.
We switched to automatic bonus progression after it was recommended to me.
Our dm tried to make our first striking weapon feel super awesome. The second time around we were not as impressed.
With ABP our dm's can focus on making cool items, and not stress to much about our power level. Our table tends to prefer active abilities that are thematic to our chars, so yeah, in short: I think it's nice there is plenty of magic items, we just don't use them.
Like many others have said - it's not a given that a divine book will be a thing. With that said I would like the following:
- A new doctrine
- the inquisitor. I have no feelings towards it really, as I never saw the pf1 counterpart. But if it's a divine striker ala 4es avanger, wow Ret paladin or the like, then yeah, that's my jam
- more feats for the cleric,oracle and divine casters.
- archetypes and subclasses with a divine flavor: I really liked the 5e zealots flavor, and thought the battle oracle would do it for me. But that's still a full caster first.
Good time to have a positive thread. It can't be easy being a developer and primarily read comments and threads bashing your love child.
1. Gates. It's a cool way to represent different connections to the plane. Personally I wouldnt mind a baseline or an opt in way to further focus on gate choices.
2. Switch hitting as a baseline. If they can tinker a bit with elemental weapon etc I'd be very happy to play a class the actually benefits from switching up their combat style.
3. Flinging updraft and the like. Super flavorful and fun ways to add CC / mobility.
4. Auras. What can I say, I like auras that actually impact my gameplay.
Honestly if they could make variable actions a core concept for the class and had more support for melee. This would prolly be a contender for funniest class for me personally (assuming damage etc is fixes).
If you go to the 'elemental defense' thread, I made a suggestion that's pretty short (as in not wordy). Fixes AC and adds a secondary buff unique to each element.
But in short: allow the kineticist to use their con mod instead of their Dex mod when using light or no armor.
It's cooler than medium armor and ties in with con as a main stat.
I kind of want elemental weapon to be something cooler than just summon a weapon. And not provoking AoO is def not cool. That's a classic 'design the problem, sell the solution' thing and it sucks.
If elemental weapon was 1 die step bigger than their normal counterpart. If they had a unique crit spec in addition to their standard weapon one, then I'd be more interested
In which case it can't be a base mechanic the class is balanced around. Which is fine, but it will probably be pretty tame then.
Unless they make it pretty universal. Reducing ap costs by burning hp would be cool. It would need to be a flourish tho.
Otherwise it's pretty ripe for abuse.
Increasing damage dice by 1-2 steps could be another option, but less interesting
I get the idea but it's a metric ton of fiddily bookkeeping, compared to any other pf2e class.
If they reintroduce burn it has to be opt in, if they wanna satisfy both camps (the love burn, absolutely hate burn camps that is).
I'd prefer a system where you have X amount of resource (let's call it conduit power for now)
Conduit power can increase damg, aoe, add debuffs, whatever. When your conduit pool is empty you can CHOOSE to to use more conduit power but each time you do that, you get drained.
If you make burn a baseline mechanic then players who dislike it will feel like crap, because they are playing a watered down version of the class. With the above design (if done right) it becomes a choice
Okay I felt like I had an actual decent idea.
So people want elemental defense back, con to matter and gather to not suck. How about this ?
Elemental defense lvl 1 feature:
Your constant exposure to the elemental realms has granted you (un)natural defenses.
Starting at first level you gain the following benefits:
You can choose to use your constitution modifier instead of your dexterity modifier when using light or no armor.
In addition whenever you have an element gathered, you gain the following benefits depending on the element gathered:
Air: Enemies that attempts to hit you with a ranged spell or attack takes a - X penalty to their attack rolls
Water: you gain fast healing equal to X of Y.
So that's the baseline idea. Con now matters, armor issues are mitigated and gather now adds a cool buff, making it more akin to panache or conflux spells than a sheer reload.
Further feats could improve the numerical values or add additional effects.
Different gates could behave differently. Dedicated could get a higher value, dual could maybe have 2 effects active with a reduced value, and universal have the benefit of choosing between the baselines ?
It feels like a way to solve multiple issues at once, or am I trippin' ?
Fair point I guess. Though I gotta admit this whole 'start low and buff from there' seems pretty strange.
In almost every game I've played, new stuff comes out overtuned so people are excited to play it which in turn increases the amount of feedback.
I personally would prefer playtests that came out fighter strong, and just.. stayed that way. Since when did we as a community agree that new classes have to be weaker then the CRB ones anyway ?
Wholeheartedly agree. They need to up the damage across the board, by a fairly large margin. If they want to stick with the current design of 'not really martial, not really caster'.
Or they have to bank harder on one aspect.
If they make baseline blasts stronger, add in ways to customize them, and then make impulses way stronger but limited they would have something.
The thing is cantrip like spells don't mesh well with good at will strike damage. Current casters resort to cantrips when they:
A. Got no more big spells left
I think they need to up the baseline damg and have a limited resource pool the kineticist can spend to add oomph. Be it burn or whatever.
That would make the kineticist an at will blaster with the niche of being able to adapt said at will damg with effects appropriate to the encounter.
Currently they are just meh. The impulses are fairly weak, and have a high action cost.
A druid with the mauler archetype and a bear companion can go all day. Dosent make it a good martial, let alone a good build.
I think the kineticist has the potential to be the most fun and unique class in pf2e yet. But from my POV judging by the current iteration, there's a long and slippery road ahead if they wanna pull it off
Another poster (I think?) Exocist suggested the following:
Give them con mod pr day/hour/whatever as a resource pool.
You can use these points to add oomph to auras/blasts/impulses.
IF you run out, you CAN go beyond the limit and spend additional points, but that would add a debuff. Most likely drained.
That would add a burn ish mechanic for those that like pain for power. And for those that dont, they can just stop when the pool is empty.
Call it living conduit or something.
'by drawing on your own life force you can pull violent energies from the elemental plane, through your gate. Doing this is harmful to you and you can only do it (con mod) pr day.
You can choose to go beyond your normal limit, but doing so puts your body and mind at risk. The first time you use living conduit without having any uses left, you become drained 1.
Yup, that's what I thought as well.
Add some cool rider to gather. Make it feel cool to do and unique to each element.
I had/have the same issue with the Magus' recharge. Imagine how much better it would feel if recharge did something extra with its effect being dependent on your hybrid study.
I posted my initial thoughts in the wrong forum so I'll try again.
Before I point out the negatives, I'll say that the flavor of the class is great. There is alot of potential to make a cool and unique class. It can become a cool switchhitter with alot of utility and flexibility.
Alot of the feats/powers are interesting. Especially the soft CC / movement based ones.
Oh boy, for me (and please note this isn't an attack, it's just my opinion) there are so many:
Damage: the damage of the class is extremely low across the board. Even their big 3ap + overflow (so 4 ap essentially) abilities are very mediocre. I get that it's resourceless but it's way below par, even with that in mind.
Feats: there are alot, they have great flavor but they are also essentially the class, more so than in other classes.
Please stop punishing players for using their base kit. It heavily incentivizes ranged combat or reach weapons and it just isn't needed.
Armor and weapons:
If melee is to be a viable playstyle, there needs to be some way of gaining medium/heavy equivalent armor. Would be awesome if it was an impulse ability.
Con as a key stat:
This seems to be an agreed upon 'issue'.
Hmm. There's potential but I gotta admit it's the playtest that seems the least polished so far.
Elemental weapon seems pretty underwhelming unless it gets further support.
If I'm playing earth, what 1h martial weapon would I even summon ?
Light armor only, makes strength really awkward. The prof scaling I imagine is an oversight.
They need more freebie elemental feats. Without them they don't really work as a class, but they are competing with your base class feats.
I think a baseline aura pr element would make sense. Have I missed something or do you only get auras through feats ?
Love the idea of the auras though.
The damage seems really low as well. Plus there's the manipulate trait makes melee striking hard. I really wanna like it 'cause the flavor is cool, but it feels like there's some pieces missing right now
Whatever floats the boat to be honest.
I'm just saying you could make: "welcome to the jungle" the book filled with everything nature and make it an awesome read, even though it was all druid and barb and ranger stuff. No new class.
I don't dislike their format. I've enjoyed reading both GnG and SoM, as books right after I bought them.
I imagine it's also more engaging for them as a team to work on, than a more 'dry' all options no lore book would be.
Yeah I really can't agree with that.
But I appreciate the insight. I didn't know that it had been an issue, and I'll keep it in mind. That won't stop me from expressing my opinions and/or hopes for the game in the future though.
It can also be a bit harder to express gratitude than to express 'frustrations' or needs.
I normally post what I would want to see in the future, in the hope that someone at Paizo might read it - so that 'needs or frustration' part is visible online.
My gratitude however is expressed with my wallet and irl with laughs and countless hours poured into this awesome system. And thus isn't as visible.