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In regards to Unleashing Psyche, I feel like the best way to make use of the feature is for finishing fights. You're still an Occult caster, just one with less fuel in the tank, and getting your key buffs and debuffs onto the field ASAP is still going to be the priority.

After you've spent the necessary slots to swing the math and have the fight proceeding favourably, then you Unleash and start closing the fight out with your heightened damage.

This means you're risking as little as possible on the stupefy. Unleashing as early as possible is a trap, since all it does is boost your damage on your less important spells; it doesn't make foes more likely to fail the saves you need them to fail.


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Winners for Round 2 and art for Round 1 is up!

Congratulations to our 9 winners from 75 qualifying entries!

We'll be back in a few weeks for Round 3.


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[url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WDZBFJtiCc3CiFUwaed-A4kqiTi2JCHmb0jf65rH3oY/edit#]A full guide to all Paizo APs with ratings can be found here[url/].

In general, Abomination Vaults and Strength of Thousands get highly rated, as does Age of Ashes (albeit with some difficulty concerns).


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I heard that they're getting unique actions that can only be used while in a Psyche.

Infinite Eye gets something about granting precision damage to allied attacks.

Another subclass gets a 1-action concealment, which is pretty nice for a third action on a fragile caster.

They also mentioned that granted cantrips will be a little bit better even without amping- for example, Distant Grasp psychic's mage hand gets stronger all the time.


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The first round showcased 33 entries.

The second round is past 50 and still has a few days left.

It's kind of nuts.


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Michael Sayre wrote:
Yeah, I expect, but do not know, that whenever PF3 happens it will look a lot more like PF2 than PF2 looks like PF1. The core engine is just a lot sturdier and more modular so, based on what I'm currently seeing in sales and customer data, I don't think we'd throw that away when it's been so successful. There's definitely a couple places where modifications that are too intensive for errata fixes could be made that would make the experience even smoother and more enjoyable. For example, reducing proficiency bumps down to +1 per tier would require completely redesigning the monster math but would make warpriests better able to accommodate the desire for a divine striker who still has full casting, and it would make fighters feel less dominant among martials without actually changing many other paradigms. That's a change that requires a larger community who've really come to appreciate the potency of a +1 in a system where the math is tight and accurate, which we just didn't have coming from PF1.

Going back to the +1 differences in proficiency could be interesting, though I think you might need at least another proficiency rank to get an adequate distinction between casters and martials where it matters.

Untrained, Trained, Adept, Expert, Master, Legendary is 5 degrees, which seems the minimum for this? Hmm...

Core Martial:
Weapon Proficiencies: Adept to Master (Fighter = Expert to Legendary)
Defense Proficiencies: Trained to Master (Monks, Champions Adept to Legend)
Strong Save: Adept to Master/Legendary
Medium Save: Adept to Master
Weak Save: Trained to Adept
Casting/Class DC: Trained to Master

Core Caster
Weapon Proficiencies: Trained to Adept
Defense Proficiencies: Trained to Adept
Strong Save: Adept to Master/Legendary
Medium Save: Trained to Expert
Weak Save: Trained to Adept
Casting DC: Adept to Legendary

Hybrids
Weapon Proficiencies: Trained to Expert
Defense Proficiencies: Trained to Expert
Strong Save: Adept to Master
Medium Save: Adept to Expert
Weak Save: Trained to Adept
Casting DC: Trained to Master


Any Gunslinger build that wants to be using reactions wants a repeating weapon with reload 0 so they actually have shots available for reactions. Capacity weapons do not solve the action economy issue.

The repeating crossbow (1d8 repeating) is the best option for repeating weapons. Of course, it's an advanced weapon that needs a feat to use properly, and of course it's still just worse than than the martial longbow.

The only other options for repeaters are a d6 one handed crossbow (which is also advanced), or a d4 agile simple weapon.

A martial d6 repeating firearm with another trait fits perfectly into the power curve and would fill a desperately needed niche. It couldn't be a d8 base, but d6 agile, or d6 with fatal d8 would be fine.


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One question arises from this: when forging a connection as a Thaumaturge, what's actually forming the basis for the check?

A class DC-10 check? Or a CHA-based skill check?

The difference between these two is very significant. The former likely caps out at Master with no bonuses, while the latter can hit legendary (and faster) and get item bonuses (and potentially status bonuses) as well, representing at least a 4 or 5 point difference in modifier.


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At this point, another Cleric Doctrine isn't realistically going to happen without a class archetype that comes with it.

The minimum stuff that Doctrine has to cover is both too much and not enough to play around with it.

At minimum it has to:

- provide expert Fortitude
- provide expert weapon proficiency
- provide expert and master casting proficiency

and do these at reasonable levels.

You can't really mess around with Reflex saves because that's a core class feature. You can't really give it Master weapons and casting because then it's just better than a Warpriest.

The only way to play around with the balance of it requires a Class Archetype to start taking away some class features so you can rebuild from scratch.


YogoZuno wrote:

Now that I've looked at the Rhoka sword, it's actually not terrible as an Advanced Weapon. It has slightly less two-hand base damage than a bastard Sword, but gains Deadly d8. Having a lower attack bonus will make that Deadly happen less often.

If anything, the Katana might be too good for it's stats. It is Uncommon, so you need a way to gain access, but 2H d10 plus deadly d8 is a pretty good combo.

The katana is just fine.

As a one handed weapon, d6 with deadly d8, it's not really better than just having a d8 weapon.

As a two handed weapon, d10 with deadly d8 is notably worse than scythes and the greatpick, and not really better than a d12 weapon.

As a hybrid weapon, it's competing with the bastard sword on both sides.

The flexibility is nice, but the katana doesn't really excel in any niche as a weapon.


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The way that Unstable ended up getting integrated, with a greater and a lower state, might be worth considering.

What if the Psychic's psi cantrips were always boosted? And then you could spend focus points to properly amp things up.

For example: telekinetic projectile scales at a d6 per spell level. As a psi cantrip, it would scale at a d8 per spell level. When amped, it could climb to a d12.

In the short term, it's a ranged greatsword when amped. In the long term, it's an attacking spell that scaled a bit worse than 2d6. Neither of these things are broken.

Having this distinction between psi cantrips always being better, and the amped cantrips being at least as good as focus spells, would help bring the class up a bit.

It also enables you to bring up the base of certain spells to make them a viable expenditure of actions *cough* daze *cough* without needing to amp them.

Finally, it also means that if you're using a utility amp, your psi cantrips are still competitive in terms of damage or other effects.


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Perpdepog wrote:

I know the conversation moved on from this point, but I thought I'd point out that another avenue for divine DCs with Dragon Disciple could potentially be to take the Wyrmblessed sorcerer bloodline.

Mostly a note for people whose GM's require the sorc bloodline and DD spell profs to match. I know Dragon Disciple doesn't specifically call out Wyrmblessed as working with the archetype, well it was printed first, and the access requirement seems pretty met to me.

Wyrmblessed explicitly works as the Access requirement for Dragon Disciple.

"Because the wyrmblessed and draconic bloodlines have similar origins, they count the same as each other for the purposes of prerequisites and access requirements."


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That is correct.

They explicitly have to call it out in the Inventor, who have two ways to increase die size (at 1st and 15th levels, respectively).


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I also like this combo the other direction; Investigator/Gunslinger.

Get Quick Draw, use a finesse weapon like a shortsword as your primary tool, and carry a dueling pistol (it's the largest fatal die on a one-hnaded weapon).

When the dice align, quick draw the pistol and dome some poor fool for a huge pile of damage.


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In general, it's not an aesthetic that appeals much to me.

However, I've played with a lot of people who would go utterly ga-ga for them, and I'm glad that they exist.


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Rage has a downside, but

a) the upsides significantly outweigh the downsides, and

b) the class chassis is built to cope with the downside.

At the moment, the downsides for Psyche are often too severe to warrant the cost.


There's the feat for an extra initial innovation at 8th.

An extra breakthrough innovation as a 16th level feat is probably fair.

It's definitely better for Construct and Armour innovations; weapon innovations tend to lean you into certain strategies with their added traits, while Construct and Armour upgrades are more generically useful.


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This feels rather like the Oracle's curse. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but we'd want to make sure there's a clear distinction.

Having certain features and feats that grow more powerful as your psyche unleashes is new. The idea that all of your powers come fully online in moments of stress (or whatever the triggers are) is something I like.

It's definitely an interesting path to explore.


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TheGentlemanDM's playtests; will cover levels 2, 8, 14 and 20.


There's no limit on use and it doesn't say you can't apply both. An opponent would need to use the interact actions separately.

Tamper can be really good, but it is also very situational. Depending on your campaign, most foes won't use weapons, and very few will actually wear armour. For the foes that are susceptible to it, a large number of them will have Attack of Opportunity to punish the tampering.


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Major Strengths of the Inventor:

- the Unstable actions give them some decent burst (for example, while the area isn't a lot, Explode scales better than any AOE focus spell)

- their innovation gives them either extra resistances and defenses, an uncommonly strong and durable companion, or a weapon that effectively scales past what an advanced weapon can do

Minor Strengths of the Inventor

- This is the only class since the CRB to have Shield Block built in

- Reconfigure enables them to retrain into specific niches with very little downtime

- Having the Inventor feat and auto-scaling crafting means they never have to worry about availability


+1 to everything at mature.

+2 to DEX, +1 to everything at Nimble, and gains expert defense.

+1 to DEX, +2 INT at specialized, and can get more on top of that.

A Nimble companion ends up with better accuracy and AC.

The construct basically competes by having a lot more HP and a bit more flat damage.


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The Rot Grub wrote:

Anyone else suspicious that Constructs' ability modifiers increase by TWO when they become Incredible? (G&G page 33)

I think that must be typo...

It's strong, but needed in the long run. It means their accuracy and AC are within bounds that they can fight comfortably in the front lines.

And they're on the Inventor class, which is a martial class which doesn't quite match up to other martials in terms of attack accuracy or damage. So them being strong isn't a bad thing.

They start at +3 STR/DEX and trained (+5 to hit, +5 AC).
A martial character at that point is at +4 and trained (+6 to hit, +7 AC).

At 4th level, they can climb to +4, still trained (+6 to hit, +6 AC).
A martial character has +1 to hit from items and now has striking runes (+7 to AC, +7 AC). They're also about to jump ahead next level.

At 8th level, they can climb to +6, still trained (+8 to hit, +8 AC).
A martial character is still at +4 but is an expert in attacks, and has item bonuses (+9 to hit, +8 AC).

At 14th level, they climb to +7, and become Experts in attacks and AC (+11 to hit, +11 AC.
At this point, a martial is at +5, a master in attacks with +2 weapons, and at least an expert in defense with +2 potency (+13 to hit, +11 AC).

As martial characters pull further ahead with +3 weapons and Apex items, the construct loses offensive presence, at which point its main benefit is utility and being quite bulky for a companion.


For most characters, no.

If gunslingers could get a feat that enabled them to change modes as a free action once per turn, they'd be plenty viable.

As is, the main selling point is the 8th level feat Stab and Blast, which sequences a melee strike directly into a firearm strike, bypassing the need to switch.


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Tying my antithetical adaptations to Essence is really interesting. I like that.

I don't think that the implements are going to fit well with Essences, though.


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This isn't at 5th, but at 13th.

You're already an expert, and have been since 5th level.

It explicitly makes Drifters and Vanguards worse, since RAW they're stuck at expert for their melee strikes.


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Obviously the numbers and exact abilities in my proposal aren't inherently perfect; I just stayed with the current playtest balance where it seemed useful. I do like the idea of keeping a hard hitting option, but it should very much be opt-in, with "smart" options as the core. The main things I wanted to get out were

1: solutions to the core mechanical issues with FF/EA (skill proficiency demands, recall knowledge penalties, action economy demands, etc)

2: solutions to the core thematic issues that arise from FF/EA (limited ways to link your Esoteric Antithesis to a specialised mechanic, few mechanics enabling one to feel like an actual specialist, being worse against the rare and weird creatures that thematically you should be best against, only feeling like a dumb beatstick and not having 'smart' debuffing options)

I do like and agree with Ediwir's proposal that we move a bit of the power budget into the implements and increase their connection to EA, though I don't have any ideas on that yet beyond the Chalice, Wand and Lanturn wanting a bit more oomph to make them appealing next to the Weapon and Amulet.


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I was one of Ediwir's playtesters, and the one responsible for the barbarian comment, so I'd like to throw in my own ideas and feedback here.

It's increasingly obvious that having a core feature that runs on Recall Knowledge runs into a lot of issues as a character develops. Needing to keep up with four-to-six different skills, suffering penalties for having to repeatedly use the ability against the same type of enemy, and suffering penalties against rarer enemies are all problems.

I also agree with Ediwir's thesis that the class needs to do more interesting things than just hit really hard. That said, one of the limitations of his proposal is that it doesn't solve the core issue of needing to develop all the knowledge skills/the rarity issues.

So, here's my solutions.

FIND FLAWS [action]
You determine a creature’s weaknesses, whether a literal weakness or a metaphysical one. Recall Knowledge about a creature, using your Charisma modifier instead of the usual ability modifier for the skill you’re using to Recall Knowledge. You ignore all penalties to the DC based upon the rarity of the creature.
The creature must be either one you can see or one you’re specifically Investigating in advance during exploration. The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge:
Critical Success You learn all of the creature’s resistances, weaknesses, and immunities. If you would have learned any of them already from Recall Knowledge, you learn different information instead. You can then use Esoteric Antithesis without spending an additional action, and can use Esoteric Antithesis against the same type of creatures without needing to Find Flaws again. This benefit lasts until your next daily preparations.
Success As a critical success, but you only learn the creature's highest weakness in addition to what you would have learned from Recalling Knowledge.
Failure You couldn’t quite figure it out, so you decide to invoke a wide range of superstitions and narrow it down from there. You may use Esoteric Antithesis against your target and the same type of creatures without needing to Find Flaws again. This benefit lasts until your next daily preparations.

Removes the critical failure clause, removes the penalties for rarity, and negates the need for more knowledge checks.

ESOTERIC ANTITHESIS [action]
Requirements You can take this action only you have used Find Flaws against your target or the same type of creature since your last daily preparations.
You search through your esoterica to find the right trinket that will apply a weakness to your attacks against the creature you Found Flaws in. You Interact to apply specific esoterica to yourself and your weapons; you can perform this Interact action with the hand holding your implement. Your unarmed and weapon Strikes against the creature become magical if they weren’t already, and you cause them to apply one of the creature’s weaknesses even if they don’t deal the correct type of damage. If the creature has a resistance to physical damage that can be bypassed by a particular type of metal or alignment trait, your strikes count as having that metal or trait. If you used a knowledge skill for which you have an Antithetical Adaptation, you may also apply one of those effects. This effect lasts until you use Esoteric Antithesis again.

Updated the wording such that you can chain it on the same type of creature, updated it so you can hit pseudo-weaknesses in terms of bypassing resistances, and removed the ability to add custom weaknesses.

What is an Antithetical Adaptation? That's the last piece of the puzzle, and it comes from the actual subclasses.

Each Thaumaturge chooses an Esoteric Emphasis, which specializes them in a particular tradition knowledge skill, and also gives them a unique Antithetical Adaption that serves as their way of exploiting their foes' weaknesses.

ESOTERIC EMPHASIS
While a thaumaturge draws upon a broad range of understandings and experiences, each of them by interest or fate is inevitably drawn to a particular area of expertise. Choose one of the following Emphases.

Arcane Emphasis
Your understanding of the world is ordered, and you fundamentally recognise the truth that even the most complicated of systems follow basic rules at the smallest levels of detail. You gain the Vulnerability Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to disrupt and destroy the fundamental makeup of your targets. You can use Arcana to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Arcana to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Arcana increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Arcana increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.

Vulnerability Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Arcana skill to Find Flaws, you may apply this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. If the creature does not already have a weakness, you grant it a custom weakness equal to 2 + half your level that only you can trigger. If the creature does already have a weakness, increase its weakness against your strikes by an amount equal to 2 + half your level.

Divine Emphasis
Your understanding of the world recognises the lingering touch of the divine and the outer planes on all things from fundamental creation. You gain the Anathematic Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to cause fate itself to reject your targets. You can use Religion to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Religion to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Religion increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Religion increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.

Anathematic Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Religion skill to Find Flaws, you may apply this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. When you strike a creature, it becomes sickened 1 until your next turn. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it with your strikes, it becomes sickened 2 instead.

Occult Emphasis
Your understanding of the world is complicated, and your recognise that there are many different ways of thinking about the same things, and that this flexibility in thinking enables you to consider myriad possibilities others can't. You gain the Mindful Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to enhance your mental and tactical faculties against your targets. You can use Occultism to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Occultism to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Occultism increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Occultism increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.

Mindful Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Occultism skill to Find Flaws, you may apply the this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Deception, Intimidation, Survival, and Stealth checks directed at or related to the target, and a +1 circumstance bonus to AC and saving throws against the targets attacks, spells and abilities. These bonuses increase to +3 if you're a Master in the associated skill, or +4 if you're legendary. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it with your strikes, the circumstance bonus to AC increases to +2 until your next turn.

Primal Emphasis
Your understanding of the world recognises the fundamental animalistic instincts underlying much behaviour, and the pack instincts needed to exploit this underlying simplicity. You gain the Instinctual Antithetical Adaptation, enabling you to use your esoterica to leave your foes cornered and vulnerable. You can use Nature to Recall Knowledge about any creature that you encounter. If you normally could not use Nature to Recall Knowledge about that creature, you take a -2 circumstance penalty to the check. At 3rd level, your proficiency in Nature increases to Expert. At 7th level, your proficiency in Nature increases to Master, and at 15th level it increases to Legendary.

Instinctual Antithetical Adaptation
When you use the Nature skill to Find Flaws, you may apply the this Antithetical Adaptation on your Esoteric Antithesis against those creatures. The creature is flat-footed to all of your strikes. If it would already be flat-footed to your attacks from another source, the circumstance penalty to its AC from being flat-footed increases to -3 instead. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it from your strikes, it becomes flat-footed with the same penalties to all your allies until your next turn.

So what does all of this do? One, it helps Thaumaturges feel specialised and smart. Two, it means they're actually better at dealing with creatures who already have weaknesses, which compounds the first clause. Three, it solves the need for having all the knowledge skills. (I recommend including a class feature at 9th that removes the penalty for the Recall knowledge skill not aligning, a la Ranger's Master Monster Hunter.) Four, it gives them stuff to do that's not just 'hit harder'. Five, it opens up the class for even more of these Antithetical Adaptations as feats.

Just to give you an idea...

Crippling Antithetical Adaptation Feat 10
Prerequisites: expert in Nature
When you use the Nature skill to Find Flaws, you may apply the following Antithetical Adaptation against those creatures. When you strike a creature, it becomes clumsy 2 for a minute or until you use Esoteric Antithesis again. If that creature has a weakness and you trigger it with your strikes, it becomes clumsy 3 instead.

While this would be an easy pickup for a Primal Emphasis Thaumaturge, any thaumaturge could invest into Nature and pick this up if they wanted to, broadening their list of options for exploiting foes.


Maybe an just make it an actual focus spell? It's the kind of effect that's too powerful for an amp that can be freely accessed through a Psyche.

Empowered Mesmerization Focus 4
Uncommon, Enchantment, Metamagic, Psychic
Cast A (verbal)
You channel the strength of your mind to push a spell beyond its usual limits. If the next action you take is to Cast a Spell from your psychic spell slots that's an enchantment spell that targets one creature, the spell is treated as if it were up to 1 level higher, to a maximum of Empowered Mesmerization's spell level or 9th level, whichever is lower. This does not enable the spell to target more than one creature even if a higher level version of the spell could target multiple creatures.
Heighten 9th The spell is treated as if it were up to 2 levels higher instead of 1.


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Seisho wrote:
Do the Sniper Gunslinger Way only work with two-handed firearms or could one use a pistol for that?

It wouldn't be great, but nothing outright requires you to use an arquebus or Harmona Gun as a Sniper.

A pistol would work fine.


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vagrant-poet wrote:
TheGentlemanDM wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
What's the vanguard like?

Specialises in two-handed firearms and crossbows at close range.

Slinger's Reload is Clear a Path, which enables...

Any chance you'd share the same info for Pistolero?

Probability is in your favour today.

Pistolero is a one-handed firearm specialist who prefers to fight at medium range and supplement with charismatic actions.

Slinger's Reload is Raconteur's Reload, which combines reload with either Create a Diversion or Demoralize.

Initial Deed is Ten Paces. +2 to initiative, free draw of a one-handed weapon, and a free 10 foot step.

Advanced Deed is Pistolero's Retort. It's a riposte within the first range increment of your one-handed gun.

Greater Deed is Grim Swagger. Make an intimidation or deception check against the Will DC of every enemy within 30 feet. On a success, frighten 2. On a crit success, frighten 3 and fleeing if they're weaker.


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aobst128 wrote:
What's the vanguard like?

Specialises in two-handed firearms and crossbows at close range.

Slinger's Reload is Clear a Path, which enables you to shove with your weapon and then interact to reload. If your last action was a strike, you delay MAP on the Shove, using the same MAP as the strike.

Initial Deed is Living Fortification. When you roll initiative, you can draw your weapon and basically parry with it (+1 AC, or +2 if it has parry, which one of the elf guns does).

Advanced Deed is Spinning Crush. Three actions, wallop everyone adjacent with your gun, basic Reflex to resist. Pushes if they fail.

Greater Deed is Siegebreaker. (Requires a kickback or scatter weapon if performed with a gun.) Two actions; leap or stride, then strike an adjacent target. You deal 3d8 extra bludgeoning damage and bypass 10 hardness. You then become immobilized, gain the parry bonus to AC, and are harder to move, all until your next turn.


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They'd be very weak, and quite shallow to play as well compared to other casters.


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Dargath wrote:

If one was playing a long ranged Ranger to be a Sniper Assassin is there anything within the Gunslinger that supports hunting a specific target and eliminating it from long range?

Also is there a decent sniper rifle type weapon? Hunt Prey makes sense for an Assassin, does Gunslinger have anything similar?

The Sniper Way pushes one to be stealthy and make one attack per turn. Their unique reload gives them a free Hide or Sneak, their first Deed gives them pseudo-Sneak Attack for opening a fight from stealth, and their second Deed expands that to any strike they land on a flat-footed target.

How much of this is available through the archetype for a Ranger, I don't know.

The Arquebus is going to be the sniper's weapon of choice. 2-handed, d8, 150 foot range, reload 1, with concussive, kickback, and fatal d12.

If you're taking the time to make one shot per turn with as many bonuses and penalties in your favour as possible (probably using Hunter's Aim), nothing beats it.


How do bayonets/reinforced stocks work?

I assume that unlike combination weapons, you don't need to spend an action changing grip?


What are the guns with scatter, and what are their traits/ranges/reloads like? Does scatter still work like the playtest?


I've been thinking about different ways to help the class lean into niches, both flavourful and mechanical.

Ideas like Divine Disharmony can be expanded out to all different skills and be extra effective against different types of foes. Extraplanar foes, undead, creatures with elemental affinities, etc.

Another area I would like to see the class explore is more than just weaknesses; having the ability to apply debuffs like frightened, sickened, clumsy, et cetera with Esoteric Antithesis or Implement's Empowerment would help the class feel like its doing more than just pretending to be a Barbarian.

So here's an idea.

There are four subclasses; one focused on each core knowledge skill. (You might also have the key ability line up with that skill, thus making it an INT/WIS class, but that's not strictly necessary for this to work.)

Thaumaturges receive free boosts at 3rd, 7th and 15th for their core skill. They can use their core skill to Recall Knowledge about anything, but with penalties.

Then, when you Find Flaws using your core skill, your Esoteric Antithesis could different effects instead of just weakness.

There would also be Thaumaturge feats that expand on this, offering more unique options for Esoteric Antithesis against particular kinds of foes depending on the skill used. An Arcana-based one that works better against spellcasters, a Religion-linked one for sickening creatures of opposed alignments, Occultism could frighten or confuse creatures from different planes, Nature could be good at bypassing resistances... there's ways to expand on this.

With the free skill boosts, a Thaumaturge could always use the options matching their subclass at full effect, and could also spec into a different knowledge skill to add more options to their repertoire.


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I their point is that the stresses should be es-OT-e-RIC an-TITH-e-SIS?


I think it's a spellcasting check since it's a spell?


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T0kume1 wrote:

I thought it was fair to compare the oracle to the cleric, since both are dedicated divine spellcasters, so I think it is fair to compare the psychic to the bard, since both are dedicated occult casters (and both are occult).

In this case, the psychic is so much worse. The psychic has a far worse chassis (6 hit points and shabby proficiencies) and 1 less spell per day per level compared to a bard, and the psychic's amps are on the mediocre side. This is an underwhelming class. It has some cool ideas and I liked the psychic for 1e but seriously it needs at least three spells per day or a big boost to their unique cantrips.

I feel that in terms of chassis, the Psychic also needs to be compared to an Occult Sorcerer. After all, both are 6HP/level spontaneous casters with certain spells locked into their repertoire.

Sorcerers get 4 spells/level, some solid focus spells, and some small riders on certain spells.

Psychics get 2 spells/level, no focus spells, and better cantrips about three-quarters of the time.

This comparison makes it very clear that the Psychic needs its Amp effects to be seriously boosted. A Sorcerer has enough fuel in the tank between slots and focus that they almost never need to cast cantrips, meaning that they're operating at 75%-100% impact for almost the entire fight.

A Psychic, on the other hand, has a severe lack of slots, meaning that they're operating at anywhere between 50%-100% impact, and more frequently the former. At the moment, the Amps feel like they're bringing that up to 60%-100%.


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Mios is non-binary, yes.


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Quick note: the Psychic seems to be missing Expert Perception.

Could we please get input as to when they're meant to get it?


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The Raven Black wrote:
81) This is not REAL. YOU are not REAL. I DISBELIEVE you.

Repeat after me.

You do not see the bodies in the water.


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71. Drops of sweat from the monk who has practiced one kick ten thousand times are pure anathema to demons of sloth.

72. An iron nail can bind shadows to the spot if struck at exactly the right time. The trick is knowing that it's always the right time somewhere in Golarian.

73. Given their affinity for spiders, you'd think that the drow would understand that the stinger of a wasp and a few of their eggs are effective symbols against the gogiteth. Of course, this would require them to acknowledge their own weaknesses...


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49: Against a spirit of life and procreation, a capable thaumaturge uses symbols of death. A clever one simply asks the bard to turn out their pockets.

50: Vrocks and Gorumites alike quail before the feather of a dove.


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45: Against the rancid filth of the ghoul, a rose of any name shall smell so sweet.

46: The puppetmaster's strings are little match for a common pair of shears.

47: Air elementals might be tricky to bind, but a hangman's noose for choking the air from its victims shall do the trick.

48: Those who hunt werewolves often carry silver blades, but a true thaumaturge needs but a single coin.


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The original Psychic used thought and emotion components, and bringing those forward into 2e wouldn't break anything.

Verbal components have the concentrate trait (which has very few weaknesses by default), a mild weakness to deafened, and are shut down by silence.

Somatic components have the manipulate trait, which makes them vulnerable to Attack of Opportunity.

All up, a tiny fraction of foes can invalidate verbal casting, and between 5% and 20% of foes (depending on level) can threaten somatic components.

Any new components need to have comparable weaknesses. If we look at how they worked in 1E, such weaknesses become apparent.

Thought components would have the concentrate trait. When you attempt the flat check for casting while stupefied, the DC is 10 + stupefied instead of 5 + stupefied.

Emotion components require you to have clear control over your mental state. Casting while frightened or under an emotion effect requires a flat check.

Once again, a tiny fraction of foes can invalidate thought components, but a LOT of stuff can try to mess with emotion components.

Thought matches with verbal as the component with rare weaknesses, and emotion with somatic as the common weakness.


Candlejake wrote:

Im glad it is spontanous. I love the occult spell list but sorcerers occult bloodlines are all a bit lackluster in one way or another. And bard is too bardy.

Really happy that psychic comes, though i have no previous knowledge ofwhat the class used to be. But i really love Telekinesis and Telepathy and assume that will factor in a lot.

Im hoping for some cool focus spells and some unique mechanics. personally would love for something that lets you hover around, similarly to Cosmos oracle curse. I just love that visual. Maybe something about swinging weapons telepathically, the iconic has a sword hovering next to them i think? They also hover themselves which makes me excited already.

For the thaumaturge im really curious how it will work. From what was said i kinda imagine a more martially inclined alchemist, maybe it even comes close to how the inventor is. They put emphasis on it being magic without casting spells or focus spells so i imagine some magic flavoured combat feats similarly to inventors tech flavoured combat feats. Maybe something similar to 5e Warlocks eldritch blast.

We got a preview/clarification from Mark in another thread.

Mark Seifter wrote:

A thaumaturge is based on the idea that it's not just that you might know things. You are connected to things and you can manipulate those connections and create them. Part of it is like convincing the universe that this is a thing, akin to the idea of magic maybe plowing the field for future casting from SoM treatises on the nature of magic. Is this broken chain from a freed slave a good connection to damage this tyrannical king? Well he doesn't have any weaknesses normally, but you're pushing the universe to create a new bespoke weakness just for you.

You can use Cha for a special in battle Recall Knowledge to suss out existing weaknesses or make a new one. Even if you fail, you can spend another Interact action to just pull out tons of different possibilities and try them until something works. So a success is not necessary to do your thing.


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Disciplines as subclasses and Phrenic Amplifications as focus spell metamagics seems likely.

There's a few metamagic-tagged focus spells already (Elemental Tempest, Extend Boost, and Extend Spell) and a class built around them would be an interesting design space to explore.


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breithauptclan wrote:

With so few spell slots to cast with, the idea is to cast the minimum number of spells needed to get the job done. With so few spells in Repertoire at a time, picking the right ones is challenging.

I would lean towards multiple round buff/debuff spells (probably buffs since they are more reliable unless there is another caster already doing those). Spells with a sustained duration can also be good. You do have to watch out for starving the Eidolon of all of its actions though.

I wouldn't recommend healing. At least not healing from spell slots. Other classes are going to do that better.

I'd argue that if a Summoner can heal themself, it's worth keeping in the repertoire. Act Together, give your Eidolon a stride or strike and take two actions yourself to heal as much as possible. Then give the last action to your eidolon to stride or strike.

You're moving, attacking and healing as much as possible, all in one turn.

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