Sadly for those credible humans who wouldn’t touch Instagram with their last barge pole as they push off the precipice of ethical relevance…it’s gate locked.
In this case, I was excited to mention the cool new thing, and I didn't realize it hadn't really penetrated past Instagram!
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I'm kinda surprised sekmin don't have an ancestry.The reasoning that was given was that sekmins are gonna used as primarily enemies so they wont be made as PC playable ancestries.
Pathfinder's "obsessed with fear" Bugbears are pretty distinct from D&D's "big and dumb" Bugbears. Ditto for Hobgoblins; 2e has moved Pathfinder's hobs away from being faux-samurai, and they're products of strange alchemy rather than 5e's goblinoids being fey.
Fey goblins is itself a bloody retcon that doesn't fit in with any of the pre-established lore from even the beginning of 5E let alone older editions.
I think I would like to see half-human heritage.
From main folks of setting... Maybe some type of half-giants or other similar conception?
That gets EXCEPTIONALLY problematic because of the racist connotations IRL.
It is why they stepped to Aiuvarin (mixed elf ancestry) and Dromarr (mixed orc ancestry)
Putting 'Half' on something implies 'lesser' rather than 'better', and there's a whole section of society that leans into it.
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I think I would like to see half-human heritage.
From main folks of setting... Maybe some type of half-giants or other similar conception?
That gets EXCEPTIONALLY problematic because of the racist connotations IRL.
It is why they stepped to Aiuvarin (mixed elf ancestry) and Dromarr (mixed orc ancestry)
Putting 'Half' on something implies 'lesser' rather than 'better', and there's a whole section of society that leans into it.
Every mixed race person* I know has been rather offended by the direction some gaming companies have been taking with their "half" races.
At least "half" implies that you exist at all.
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Every mixed race person* I know has been rather offended by the direction some gaming companies have been taking with their "half" races.
At least "half" implies that you exist at all.
** spoiler omitted **
The general consensus among the people I know is that acknowledging all aspects of one's Ancestry is more important than the arbitrary delineation by a bunch of folks in some bureaucracy and welcome the change.
EDIT:
For a Versatile Human ancestry I'd probably suggest something like Arodenian (since Aroden viewed himself as God of Humanity) or some other term that encompassed enough of Humanity without being bigoted.
Not saying the idea of Human as a Versatile Ancestry is bad, just suggesting stepping away from historically bad things.
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I'm just using the same naming style that's traditional in fantasy. We historically have half-orcs, half-elves, and many other similar things that exist in different settings without original names. They are good, but far from necessary. So such naming is an established tradition, and not a political statement.
But Arodeni is good.
Sometimes things become political over time as people get to a certain point and decide that something now feels offensive. Possibly they'd been pushed so far down by other things that it just never registered before. Perhaps they had a desire to feel aggrieved about something and found a thing to feel aggrieved about. Perhaps a new generation rising up in a changed environment just experienced things differently.
Sometimes it was always political and always offensive, and they just swallowed their bile and didn't say anything before because they weren't really in a position to and now they are.
Sometimes it wasn't political or offensive initially, and then some group of deeply obnoxious individuals or other started using it in really offensive ways and so now it is.
It's... basically impossible to tell the difference from the outside, and the emotional nature of memory can mean that it may not be possible to tell from the inside, either, and that's before we get into the idea that you can have more than one of these effects working at the same time.
Regardless, "it's an established tradition" means very, very little as to whether or not something is a political statement.
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The other added benefit of using a new term versus a 'traditional' one is that it becomes something that the ORC license can cover wholly, versus the concern that a certain company with tons of lawyers and infamously armed security forces decides to take offense.
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And, for some people, everything is offensive.
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First, do no harm.
That is... more subjective than we would like it to be. It is really easy to have strong personal biases adjust your internal definitions of what is and what is not "harm". That's more of a general thing than specific to this issue, though
Personally? As a "reach for this one first" general rule, I like the idea of just being polite. The principle of politeness suggests that if there is some small thing that you can do to improve overall harmony, that costs you nearly nothing, then you should just do it. It costs you almost nothing, and it makes the lives of the people you interact with better, so why wouldn't you?
...and, really, picking names for stuff like this by throwing out ideas until you find one that no one calls offensive? That's right up there on "costs nearly nothing". There's a whole bunch of names that different people would find varying degrees of offensive for a wide variety of reasons... and we can just pick one of the names that doesn't do that. Too easy. It costs basically nothing, and makes them happy... so why not? That's kind of what politeness is. Where's the win in being rude?
Really good comment, Sanityfaerie. I kind of hate that something as basic to societal functioning as courtesy has somehow warped into a hot-button political issue.
Anyway, I think the only things really missing from the lineup after Tian Xia and Howl of the Wild are Arcadian, subterranean, and extraterrestrial ancestries. I don't think we have to worry about aliens much thanks to SF2 being backwards-compatible, and I know tons of people are pulling for an Arcadian sourcebook, so... maybe a post-remaster Darklands book would be nice? The region needs an overhaul now that so many OGL standbys are gone, so why not?
Scrolling through PF1's options, the only things sticking out to me other than the above are a handful of interesting aquatic options and the gathlain. There are also a surprising number of things I don't want ported, like munavri and kuru.
First, do no harm.That is... more subjective than we would like it to be. It is really easy to have strong personal biases adjust your internal definitions of what is and what is not "harm". That's more of a general thing than specific to this issue, though
Personally? As a "reach for this one first" general rule, I like the idea of just being polite. The principle of politeness suggests that if there is some small thing that you can do to improve overall harmony, that costs you nearly nothing, then you should just do it. It costs you almost nothing, and it makes the lives of the people you interact with better, so why wouldn't you?
...and, really, picking names for stuff like this by throwing out ideas until you find one that no one calls offensive? That's right up there on "costs nearly nothing". There's a whole bunch of names that different people would find varying degrees of offensive for a wide variety of reasons... and we can just pick one of the names that doesn't do that. Too easy. It costs basically nothing, and makes them happy... so why not? That's kind of what politeness is. Where's the win in being rude?
In principle I agree, but in practice there will always be people who will take offense to whatever term you opt into. You need to draw the line somewhere or it becomes impractical and unsustainable.
Striving for politeness is certainly laudable, as it makes the world a better place to live in, but with so many different opinions on what is respectful and what isn't, I think the expectation that everyone should get it right every time or be cast down as a villain is downright toxic.
I'm merely thinking aloud, speaking generally, and do not intend to infer anything about you specifically.
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In principle I agree, but in practice there will always be people who will take offense to whatever term you opt into. You need to draw the line somewhere or it becomes impractical and unsustainable.
Striving for politeness is certainly laudable, as it makes the world a better place to live in, but with so many different opinions on what is respectful and what isn't, I think the expectation that everyone should get it right every time or be cast down as a villain is downright toxic.
I'm merely thinking aloud, speaking generally, and do not intend to infer anything about you specifically.
The line gets drawn by the definition of politeness itself. The whole point of politeness is to do the easy, small things that make life better for the people you deal with. Once a thing is no longer easy or small, it is no longer a question of politeness, and you have to go looking for other principles to work with.
As for "in practice"... In practice, in my life, I have personally found that the principles of politeness cover rather a lot. Show a little decency, show a little respect, and a lot of the time, that's enough. If that's not true in the life you live... then you have my sympathy, because it sounds like that sucks.
In this particular case, as an example, I doubt that anyone is going to get all that offended by "Aiuvarin", "Dromarr", or "Arodenian". Here is a case where we can simply allow the politeness rule to work, without having to reach beyond it.
In this particular case, as an example, I doubt that anyone is going to get all that offended by "Aiuvarin", "Dromarr", or "Arodenian". Here is a case where we can simply allow the politeness rule to work, without having to reach beyond it.
Indeed.
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Anyway, I think the only things really missing from the lineup after Tian Xia and Howl of the Wild are Arcadian, subterranean, and extraterrestrial ancestries. I don't think we have to worry about aliens much thanks to SF2 being backwards-compatible, and I know tons of people are pulling for an Arcadian sourcebook, so... maybe a post-remaster Darklands book would be nice? The region needs an overhaul now that so many OGL standbys are gone, so why not?
Scrolling through PF1's options, the only things sticking out to me other than the above are a handful of interesting aquatic options and the gathlain. There are also a surprising number of things I don't want ported, like munavri and kuru.
I believe Opsylum has mention their table's take on the Kuru a few places before, a spin on their canon that casts them as being tragically pushed into aberrant contagion/corruption by the pressures of Chelish colonialism, and I'd love to see something like that. They definitely need a rename and a refocus away from "evil cannibal islanders," but I don't think the idea of a native Ancestry for the Shackles that predates all the damn pirates is an irredeemable one.
As for Arcadians, I've been making noise about Wyrwoods for a long while now, but have every confidence they're coming eventually. I'd also take Sedacthy as a playable option, something a little sharper and meaner than the Athamarus, Azarketi, and Merfolk.
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Anyway, I think the only things really missing from the lineup after Tian Xia and Howl of the Wild are Arcadian, subterranean, and extraterrestrial ancestries. I don't think we have to worry about aliens much thanks to SF2 being backwards-compatible, and I know tons of people are pulling for an Arcadian sourcebook, so... maybe a post-remaster Darklands book would be nice? The region needs an overhaul now that so many OGL standbys are gone, so why not?
Scrolling through PF1's options, the only things sticking out to me other than the above are a handful of interesting aquatic options and the gathlain. There are also a surprising number of things I don't want ported, like munavri and kuru.
I believe Opsylum has mention their table's take on the Kuru a few places before, a spin on their canon that casts them as being tragically pushed into aberrant contagion/corruption by the pressures of Chelish colonialism, and I'd love to see something like that. They definitely need a rename and a refocus away from "evil cannibal islanders," but I don't think the idea of a native Ancestry for the Shackles that predates all the damn pirates is an irredeemable one.
I found the following on the Pathfinderwiki entry for the Blood Queen :
"Chelish explorers described the peaceful kuru in their journals 600 years ago. When pirates began using the Shackles as their base of operations, the peaceful natives known as the kuru were driven farther and farther west. For as long as possible, the kuru avoided the westernmost stretch of islands known in their prehistoric mythology as the Demon's Children. Eventually, left with no other choice, however, they were forced to move their settlements to those forbidden isles. The Blood Queen convinced the kuru, who had been forced onto the islands, that it was a god and transformed them into primitive monsters."
At this point, with all of the new ancestries, heritages, and versatile heritages coming in Howl of the Wild, Player Core 2, Lost Omens: Tian Xia Character Guide and in Starfinder 2E, there's not much else I'd like to play as in the game.
Maybe a half-giant ancestry would be nice. Could be paired with a variety of versatile heritages to cover the different kinds of giants in the game. Maybe even have a heritage for half-trolls for a touch of psuedo-regeneration via fast healing in a feat.
Aside from that, I really don't know what else to ask for. I'll be excited either way whenever Paizo gets around with teasing us with new things to come!
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I've got the dragon heritage now sooooo...maybe more psionic stuff? I love kashrishi but you can double up on themes, like leshy and ghorons. However, playing starfinder2e is probably going to take care of me with ancestries like lashunta, contemplatives, and greys
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I'm pretty happy with most of the stuff we have right now and coming up in Howl of the Wild. Always love more ancestries of course, but we're at a good point. I'd still like to get some Darklands ancestries (Xulgath, Sekmin) and some Arcadian ancestries (Rougarou, Wyrwood), maybe something from Casmaron if we ever go there. Other than that, we've got a lot of options already. Selfishly, I might also like if Harpy sometime becomes an ancestry, or some other "generic bird" ancestry which would be less restrictive than Tengu (appearance wise), more humanoid than Awakened Animal, and less humanoid than Strix. But that's pretty damn specific and redundant.
I'm pretty happy with most of the stuff we have right now and coming up in Howl of the Wild. Always love more ancestries of course, but we're at a good point. I'd still like to get some Darklands ancestries (Xulgath, Sekmin) and some Arcadian ancestries (Rougarou, Wyrwood), maybe something from Casmaron if we ever go there. Other than that, we've got a lot of options already. Selfishly, I might also like if Harpy sometime becomes an ancestry, or some other "generic bird" ancestry which would be less restrictive than Tengu (appearance wise), more humanoid than Awakened Animal, and less humanoid than Strix. But that's pretty damn specific and redundant.
I could see Harpy as a regional variant of Strix with bad hygiene and press issues. And it's not redundant and the specificity is what I'm interested in, too.
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With all the ancestries and versatile heritages we know are coming in the next few months (Samsaran, Hungerseed, Yaoguai, Yaksha, Awakened Animal, Tanuki, Centaur, Minotaur, Dragonblooded, etc.), I’m pretty much satisfied. There are a bunch of Starfinder 1E species I want to see ported over to PF2E as ancestries, but I believe we will get those in Starfinder 2E products after a while. Furthermore, I feel confident that some of the weirder concepts I’d like to see (Sentient Spells, Dullahan, Cyclops, etc.) will likely get covered by RFC Battlezoo at some point. I am really happy with their Mimics, Nymphs, Sidhe, Gargoyles, WereCreatures, Slimes, Oni, Dungeons, Dragons, and Intelligent Weapons.
However, eventually, I hope to see Wyrwoods, Syrinxs, Shabtis, Wyvarans, Orang Pendak, Yeti, and other Paizo ancestries from Arcadia, Vudra, Casmaron, and other regions that correspond to other real world ethic and cultural regions and mythologies from across the globe, as well as 1E conversions.
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I forgot how much I wanted Shabtis as a Versatile Heritage! A Golden Road book is still something I'd really enjoy somewhere down the line.
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I think I'd like some new stuff we haven't seen before. Maybe something that's a direct result of the Godsrain. Maybe that just means more nephilim. Dunno.
I could also go for more bizarre stuff. The Conrasu are very, very cool. Might be getting more of that via Starfinder, tho.
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I'm totally stoked for the awakened animal, and my friends are super happy about both the centaur and minotaur, which they used to play during the days of Savage Species.
I'm also looking forward to seeing the dragonblooded, samsaran, and shabtis as well, since I had characters of those ancestries back in the day.
Like some other posters, I'm getting pretty close to the point where I will be content with the ancestry selection. Everything after this is just going to be delicious icing on the cake.
I'm totally stoked for the awakened animal, and my friends are super happy about both the centaur and minotaur, which they used to play during the days of Savage Species.
I'm also looking forward to seeing the dragonblooded, samsaran, and shabtis as well, since I had characters of those ancestries back in the day.
Like some other posters, I'm getting pretty close to the point where I will be content with the ancestry selection. Everything after this is just going to be delicious icing on the cake.
Awakened Animal was one of the ones I've been craving.
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Things such as yaoguai and the new magic beetle are proving that there are ancestries out there I didn't even know I wanted, and awakened animal goes under the category of things I never even dreamed we'd get in the first place. I can only imagine that there are even more ideas out there waiting to show me what I need.
On the other hand, my faint hope remains that maybe one day we'll get to have our own humanoid shapeshifter in the vein of the Eberron changeling. It doesn't have to be the same, but I love the idea of a doppelgänger type who can alter their appearance at will. Sometimes I imagine them as an astral people who reflect those around them until they glom together their own identity out of the pieces.
... For that matter, I forgot about the Reflection heritage
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Figments, native denizens of the etherial plane, comprised largely of thoughts and dreams. However with the Godrain, the disruption of the inner planes, some have been forced into the Universe, and many have found a few of them very familiar.
Basically an imaginary friend to be our shapeshifter. Because they have been forced into the Universe, their natural shapeshifting has become limited as this phsyical world anchors them to a form they had once used when interfacing with the members of this world who where still open to see them: children. They can always be discerned as they have a dusting of starlight where other ancestries would have freckles.
Skills they can build are shapeshifting or intangiblity
Oh we adore that Figment concept!
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Just found out about Astomoi. I think they really cooked with that one and should bring the weird silhouette people back.
Just found out about Astomoi. I think they really cooked with that one and should bring the weird silhouette people back.
I'm not sure you can make "everything more than 60' away is hidden from you, everything closer is observed by you" balanced at all, but it would be fun to try.
Scrolling through PF1's options, the only things sticking out to me other than the above are a handful of interesting aquatic options and the gathlain. There are also a surprising number of things I don't want ported, like munavri and kuru.
Is the objection to the Munavri flavor based or mechanics based? I may be missing something offensive about them besides them being another group of Azlanti that didn't die off, but the mechanics were definitely an issue.
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Is the objection to the Munavri flavor based or mechanics based? I may be missing something offensive about them besides them being another group of Azlanti that didn't die off, but the mechanics were definitely an issue.
Mostly flavor, specifically relating to how it--like a lot of stuff in PF1 and early Starfinder--borrows from some objectively goofy yet unfortunately incredibly racist conspiracy theories (see: Hyperborea). Furthermore, having a "superior" form of human also goes against PF2's core design philosophies, both mechanically and politically.
I also just think it's a little icky that the only nice people in the Darklands are technologically advanced, magically enlightened humans whose beauty and paleness are explicitly called out. One of those things that's neutral within context of the fiction, but looks hella bad from a real-life lens, y'know?
Maybe a PF2 portrayal could pivot away from the unfortunate implications and add in some much-needed nuance, but I think it's cooler to focus on new, weird stuff rather than try to rehabilitate every inch of PF1's massive canon.
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Is the objection to the Munavri flavor based or mechanics based? I may be missing something offensive about them besides them being another group of Azlanti that didn't die off, but the mechanics were definitely an issue.Mostly flavor, specifically relating to how it--like a lot of stuff in PF1 and early Starfinder--borrows from some objectively goofy yet unfortunately incredibly racist conspiracy theories (see: Hyperborea). Furthermore, having a "superior" form of human also goes against PF2's core design philosophies, both mechanically and politically.
I also just think it's a little icky that the only nice people in the Darklands are technologically advanced, magically enlightened humans whose beauty and paleness are explicitly called out. One of those things that's neutral within context of the fiction, but looks hella bad from a real-life lens, y'know?
Maybe a PF2 portrayal could pivot away from the unfortunate implications and add in some much-needed nuance, but I think it's cooler to focus on new, weird stuff rather than try to rehabilitate every inch of PF1's massive canon.
The Munavri never struck me as particularly racist, but it does seem pretty lame that the only good race in the Darklands are descendants of humanity. I don't see why we can't have eyeless horrors from the depths that battle tyrants and provide aid to those in need.
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I took their paleness as a natural consequence of being human descendants in a lightless realm, so I never caught on to that (likely unintended) implication, but I can see where the optics come in - especially standing directly across from the drow as they used to. It's been a very long time since we explored much of the Darklands though, so I have every faith that we should see more nuanced depictions of its inhabitants in the future, even if some of them (esp sekmin) remain designated villains for the time being. At the very least we already know that munavri are no longer the sole 'good' ancestry with the ayindilar down there, and the hryngar (formerly duergar) at least show nuance in how their values shape their outlook instead if a love for cruelty.
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Well, we know that the whole Drow thing means that the Darklands are getting hit by at least some level of retcon, so....
Oh, and I sort of feel like when you take all of the OGL out of mongrelmen, the only thing that you're left with is basically just straight-up racism, so there's that, too.
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Well, we know that the whole Drow thing means that the Darklands are getting hit by at least some level of retcon, so....
Oh, and I sort of feel like when you take all of the OGL out of mongrelmen, the only thing that ypu're left with is basically just straight-up racism, so there's that, too.
Yeah... I'm sure I've seen at least one staff comment their disdrainfor mongrelfolk. For my own preference, there was a creature from I think the Mwangi book that were non-evil and stitch their bodies together out of others', and i would not mind at all a levek adjusted version if them becoming the new look of mongrelfolk