Kavlor's page

In my personal opinion, I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a thematic Ninja or Samurai class. First of all, we already have the Viking, as well as several other examples of strictly culturally-oriented content. Secondly—if you dislike the abundance of specifically Japanese elements (and I myself agree that Tian Xia draws its inspiration primarily from Japan)—the solution isn't to reject potential content entirely; rather, you should advocate for adding more "flavor" drawn from other real-world cultures. It’s not as if there aren't plenty to choose from.

The main challenge regarding the mechanical implementation of the Samurai and Ninja lies, instead, in the need to thematically define what the very concepts of the Samurai and Ninja represent within the context of Pathfinder. I do not believe they necessarily need to be full-fledged classes; however, they could certainly be realized as thematic archetypes—packages of abilities drawn from various existing classes—for those players who wish to engage with these specific tropes.

I am curious how much will be covered about how sailing ships manage to defend themselves vs aquatic enemies. Sailing ships I would think would be really vulnerable in a setting where there are fully aquatic intelligent civilizations that have magical capacity. Seeing/hearing a boat rumbling around compared to beings that can well below the surface. There almost has to be a fair amount of detection magic that allows ships some better way of seeing the threats around them and protecting themselves.

Given the existence of real-world technologies, the problem may not be all that significant; the solution is simply a hull two meters thick, made of oak timber. In reality, cannons were sometimes simply incapable of penetrating the thick hulls of large ships—a limitation that ultimately drove the further development and increased power of artillery. I am confident that, in 99% of cases, the underwater peoples possess no weaponry more powerful than this.

I must categorically object to certain points.

First, we should not provide exhaustive information regarding the Dominion of the Black. This is not because the subject matter would be uninteresting; rather, the issue is that when dealing with entities utterly alien to the human psyche—beings too bizarre and incomprehensible to grasp (as Lovecraftian horrors invariably are)—any attempt to shoehorn them into the realm of conventional politics and factionalism results in abject failure. The same principle applies to the various races and creatures drawn from Lovecraftian mythos—such as the Cosmic Polyp—and similar entities.

The second point I wish to address concerns the problematic nature of defining "Aberrations" as a single, unified concept. The trouble with this classification is that it encompasses a multitude of creatures that are, in the context of a fantasy setting, entirely mundane and relatively normal—the Grindlow being a prime example. In essence, the entire "Aberration" creature type serves as a catch-all bin: a dumping ground where, alongside truly "unnatural" entities, one finds tossed everything else that simply fails to fit into any of the other established categories. Consequently, I find the concept of an entire book dedicated to Aberrations *in general*—rather than focusing on a more specific, narrower subset of that category—to be somewhat ill-conceived.

I also would say that we may get grindylows heritage for goblins, like monkey-goblins are part of broader goblins in 2nd edition.

And for merfolk I would like to get Cecaelias heritage. IMO, they aren't that far conceptually to make in two different races, since both are underwater race with aquatic lower part of body, which is can't be used for walk.

Also, I'm bit not sure about potential of Tritons for future. I'm thinking about that they too close of Azarketi to make them distinct enough, they both are underwater humanoid races. Same bit why I doesn't see Sedacthys ancestry, since IMO they too close conceptually to Athamaru. But I think we may get Adaro.

Drathnelar and Hryngar probably would get maximally heritage. I think also that Wyvaran couldn't be made as full ancestry, but as heritage with it's own line of feats. And same for Shabti, since they are made in form of any race, so it's more correct to make them heritage.

If Calingi or Munavi would get ancestry, it would been in big Darklands book. And Rougarou with Syrinx and Wyrwood for Ancardia. But I'm surprised we didn't get Gathlain in Feybound, since for me they more interesting and distinct than Gremlins, which are close to Sprites themtically. I'm somewhat interested in Orang-pendak, since it's real mythological creature, but I doesn't see where they can ne places.

I don't think we would got Beings of Ib, Deep one hybrid, Yaddithian or Reptoid ancestiries

Ladies and gentlemen, I disagree with those who say that orcs without the traumatic experience of the dwarves would be kinder. Let me remind you that almost all the gods traditionally worshiped by orcs were Chaotic Evil. So, to put it mildly, I doubt that a civilization in which their worship was traditional is particularly kind and welcoming, for obvious reasons.

And given that orcs have access to the Crucible, I personally have been reluctant to portray large orc groups in a positive light until recently. It begs the question: why haven't there been any successful examples of orcs from these peoples seizing a place in the pantheon? Yet, we have several new gods from the Belkzen orcs, but only from their ranks and without any others.

Okay, weird and maybe lame idea but... Happy Orcs.

in their history they were driven from the darklands by the Dwarves Quest for Sky (tm), into the surface, a world they were not built for,

I would love to see an Orc civilization still living underground and shocking everyone by being happy welcoming people, sharing their abundant harvests (of what I don't know). Just a complete shock to anyone who knows surface Orcs. Not like they're total pacificists, but they seek first alliance and harmony, and if these are slapped away their warriors do not hesitate to protect their people. They DO have an ancestral grudge against Dwarves though.

Isn't this mostly just Matanji orcs?

Again, I don't think we shouldn't strive to create cool and awesome things. It's just that I think a professional company like Paizo shouldn't create content impulsively, but rather with a mindset of "how will this expansion improve the player experience?"

I'll just try to explain what exactly I'm having trouble with, addressing both my personal biases and what I consider a more objective issue.

My gripe with races like the Shisk, Kashrishi, and Goloma is that, in my opinion, they're created without any stated purpose. Simply because the creators thought it was a cool or funny idea at the time. And then they either dismiss it as a failure or simply get distracted by other concepts, overlooking them in other materials. This applies to a lesser extent to some other races that I find more successful and interesting, like the Surki, but nonetheless. This is, at least, my subjective impression of these races.

The first problem I encounter with these races is that it's not entirely clear what fantasy they appeal to and how they could be used to interest others. Two points intersect here:
1. They are completely original, not borrowing material from real mythology and culture or other iconic fantasy.
2. In 2nd Edition, due to changes in how races work, authors have significantly less opportunity to describe the cultures of various peoples in detail.

This means that such races often lack detailed descriptions, even descriptions outside of Paizo's materials. This makes it unclear how to use them and what their purpose is beyond their immediate gameplay mechanics.

Yes, I understand that the change in the amount of text required per race in 2nd Edition is an objective factor, and it's not reasonable to demand that all races receive a detailed ten-page description of their culture and habitat. But it's precisely these races that suffer the most from this inability to do so.

If we're talking about iconic creatures from mythology like centaurs and minotaurs, players may already be familiar with this concept from many other sources, desire its implementation, and understand how to work with it. Or, if less European, sarangai and anadi.

On the other hand, hobgoblins and bugbears didn't receive much detailed description from Paizo in 2nd Edition. But they are iconic creatures from D&D, encountered in many places, and you can get a rough idea of ​​what to expect from them from other fantasy settings.

But what is a Shisk? What excites them? Why should I play one? How do they interact even with the inhabitants of their own region? There are no answers to these questions, and we can only speculate.

That's precisely why I personally advocate adding either real mythological creatures, iconic fantasy creatures, or variations of 1st Edition creatures. Because I believe it's worth recognizing the limitations imposed by the 2nd Edition format and not trying to game them, but embracing and adapting to them.

Similarly, due to the lack of all the above-mentioned questions, and probably due to the need to invent them, we rarely encounter original Paizo races. And even when we do, they're usually isolated individuals, like the Konrasu and the Awakened Beasts in Wildwood, rather than fully-fledged cultures and societies.

My personal dissatisfaction with them is that I'm not a big fan of the "Mos Eisley cantina vibe" when applied to fantasy. I agree that fantasy can be extremely diverse, given the diversity of real historical cultures. But in my view, it's better to strive to emulate the representations of these cultures in production rather than attempt to create something entirely new. After all, fantasy largely stems from a desire to emulate the past and folklore.

That said, I certainly don't think original races are a bad thing. I fully support the vast diversity of species in Starfinder. In this case, the local, alien, strange, and extremely diverse Galaxy is precisely what perfectly meets the requirement that Starfinder strives to fulfill. Especially since, unlike the single planet in the case of Golarion, which isn't really all that large, the Galaxy is vast enough that races exist in the background, and we barely consider interactions with them.

In any case, I personally don't quite understand the point of adding original races like the Shisk and Goloma.

I mean, my slight disagreement with their inclusion stems from a simple principle: they exist essentially separately and aren't integrated into the setting. For example, I don't recall these two races taking part in any other adventures. Furthermore, they were given very brief descriptions, without giving us a full introduction to them, their way of life, and much more, unlike many of the aforementioned cultures of the Mwangi Expanse. And they seem to have no connection to real mythology or imagery, allowing players to draw upon the missing information.

Ultimately, I get the feeling they exist in the setting solely to increase the overall number of playable races, and nothing more.

I don't mean to say I'm categorically against them; sometimes they do produce interesting concepts. But I'm trying to understand why they're added and then not used or developed? And are there even fans of adding new races like these?

Kavlor wrote:

Medusas - in many ways similar to harpies, but I've just seen fewer interesting examples of their character development and am therefore less eager to see them in the game.

You mean the Stheno? It's ready for playable status, so ;)

Yes, I'm talking about them. But I haven't heard of any plans to make them playable.

By the way, as another possibility, I'd love to be able to play as the Large Amurruns. Something akin to the race of tigers, lions, and other large cats.

I'm generally more interested in races based on classic mythological and fantasy tropes, and not nearly as interested in Paizo's original creations, especially when they come without a sufficiently detailed and complete description of their lifestyle, history, and so on, making them seem disconnected from the setting.

For example, the Anadi have a very clear connection to Anansi and real mythology; I can understand that. On the other hand, I'm not sure the Shiski and Goloma are connected to real mythology.

That said, I'm quite excited about the races we'll be getting soon.
Bugbears aren't the most useful option for a playable race, but they're a classic creature from D&D and fantasy, and I like that.
I also like the addition of fauns, as they're an example of a creature from classical mythology, and I'm hoping for some connections to satyrs.
I'm less thrilled about nymphs and gremlins. I'm not sure how Paizo will define an entire category of creatures as a single ancestry. Plus, I'm generally not a fan of gremlins and other tiny races.

Here are my wishes for new races:
Harpies - in my opinion, they are absolutely iconic creatures from classical mythology. Moreover, I personally find it more interesting to consider harpies as an exclusively female species, as a possible way to rework their culture and concept toward a people who need to coexist with other peoples.
Cyclopes - another example of a race from classical mythology that I think would be quite interesting to explore, especially since they are a highly advanced civilization in-universe, and also have ties to prophecy.
Medusas - in many ways similar to harpies, but I've just seen fewer interesting examples of their character development and am therefore less eager to see them in the game.
Tritons - I think they would be a logical addition to the underwater races.
Another example of aquatic creatures that I consider potentially quite interesting, meaningful, and have wide application is the Selkie.
Girtablilu are classic creatures from Mesopotamian mythology, and they could very well be added to the game, given that larger ancestors are now more acceptable.
Urmallulu are another classic creature from Mesopotamian mythology, half-human, half-lion. For me, this is a largely possible option for creating something similar to Wemic, but based on real mythology and culture.
From Japanese mythology and for the future potential of the Tian Xia, I think it would be interesting to borrow at least the Jorogumo and Kappa, which you're already familiar with. But as a less straightforward suggestion, I'd mention the Rokurokubi. I think the ability to extend the neck or detach and make the head fly could be potentially interesting and have potential applications, even though they're otherwise little different from humans. I'd be even more excited to borrow from other mythologies, as I've already done with the Wayang and Sarangai.
For Vudra, I think the Garudas would be a welcome addition as a local people. I also think the Yaksha expansion would be desirable for Vudra, as they are, after all, creatures originally from Indian mythology.
For Arcadia, I'd like to see the Sasquatch, and how it could be expanded to include similar creatures from different parts of the world, like secretive humanoids living in remote places.
Another people I'd personally like to see more widely distributed are the dog-headed race, similar to the ones already existing in the Rougarou setting, which are limited to Arcadia. Why? Because dog-headed races have traditionally been mentioned in legends and real-life mythology in a wide variety of places, and I'd like to see them in various places around the world.

But there's something I specifically wouldn't want to see, because I think it would require too much material to describe well.
First and foremost, these are ogres and, to some extent, trolls as playable characters. In my opinion, Anbennar as a setting has, in many ways, done the best job of revealing the ogres as a people, their culture, and behavior, and this required a significant amount of work and material. I simply don't believe it's feasible to do so within the limited printed material of Paizo.

I'd like to add my own thought to these words. Personally, I'd like to see fetchlings become heritage races instead of ancestry, so that other possible races affected by the Plane of Shadow could be played.

I mean, we get bugbears in this year. I'm not sure serpenfolk will remain villian-only.

OMG, Nuremberg Trials in an AP?? (if only a portion or epilogue)

Well... in that case, I think it would be quite a "fun" thing. So to speak, don't ask most of the upper and middle management of free Cheliax whose side they've been on throughout the entire history of the Infernal Monarchy, whether they've made contracts with Hell, whether they're diabolists, and the like. Just as don't ask why Cheliax researchers for various topics like Warshards ended up as researchers and scientists in the Platinum Wing.

So Earth laws? Earth norms? And a bit modern at that. It's better than nothing, but do we have anything from Golarion/Paizo? What standards are devs using? Is there even univocality among them? Is the lack why we're seeing what some think are discrepancies?

I'm not a fan of applying modern moral standards to fantasy and the Pathfinder universe, which is a more archaic setting. I was simply trying to show that, from a purely legal standpoint, many other stories and adventures in the universe are no better by those same modern legal definitions. Therefore, the thread's author's position, in my view, isn't the most logically consistent, and therefore I disagree with the idea that future adventures need to be adjusted to reflect this position.

Are you implying that restricting religious freedom is okay?

Like even in fantasy context, its basically saying "You can't idolize or be fan of someone" since fantasy religions are kind of glorified celebrity fandoms

Well, strictly speaking, I can understand their motivation. The gods are extremely powerful forces that exert their will on the world, but mortals have no way to hold them accountable for the consequences of their influence. At the same time, divine casters, especially clerics, are conscious servants of these gods, their interests, and their goals. These may not necessarily serve the good of the country, even if they remain technically legal. In fact, such views have some similarities to the idea of ​​a citizen of a state being accused of treason for acting in the interests of a foreign power. Because while in the real world, religious matters are largely a matter of personal views and social values, here they are a much more complex matter. So the Pure Legion's views are certainly extreme, but I believe there is a grain of truth to them.

Like, when worshiping and wanting to serve a god gives you the ability to throw fireballs, it stops being a matter of just personal choice and becomes a matter of public safety, just like any other possible regulation of magic training or weapon ownership.

Kavlor wrote:

And in the case of Ironfang Invastion, and in general with all Nimrathas military forces, they are largely unlawful combatants, as they don't wear uniforms that identify them as combatants, nor are they in the chain of command of the government. Many Nimrathas forces and the player squad in this AP effectively acted on their own initiative. And because of this, they, like most guerrilla forces, are formally unlawful combatants without usual immunity for actions for combatants.

Having run Ironfang Invasion I know that the Chernasardo Rangers, one of the Nirmathi military forces, wear a green-and-gray uniform mostly designed for camouflage in the forest. Page 6 of Fangs of War under "Seeking Allies" says, "She explains that the Rangers are active all throughout the Southern Fangwood, that they wear distinctive ponchos of gray and green, and that they maintain three hidden bases in the Southern Fangwood." The uniform is visible in the picture Deadly Rivalry, though the artist used a lot more brown than gray and the poncho looks more like a cape. I do not know the uniform policies of the other militias, such as the Foxclaws and Irgal's Axe.

Lost Omens World Guide describes the government of Nirmathas as "Meritocracy," but really it is close to anarchy, a loose coalition of local rule. Elected Forest Marshal Weslen Gavirk tracked the independent militias and could request their aid. The Chernasardo Rangers were recognized by him as an official militia, and in the 6th module he recognized the player characters as their own militia.

What I mean is that while the Ironfang Legion certainly committed actions that are illegal by modern moral standards and the definition of war crimes, systematic resistance to them still makes the characters combatants, and since they acted independently, they are still unlawful combatants.

Regarding the examples you cited, especially the Chernasardo Rangers, I agree with your arguments. But I still point out that in addition to these professional military units, there are many smaller ones, not necessarily organized, uniformed, and at least relatively under government control (again, in the chaos of a military campaign, their existence and presence may be completely unknown). Again, due to the anarchic nature of the country.

Furthermore, I'll say that I personally don't see any real problem with us playing as mercenaries, as the events of the AP have repeatedly drawn us into actions that would be considered questionable, to put it mildly.

For example, in the case of the Hell Rebels, we're essentially organizing a terrorist organization from a formal legal perspective. And Hellbreakers storgly repeat this.

And in the case of Ironfang Invastion, and in general with all Nimrathas military forces, they are largely unlawful combatants, as they don't wear uniforms that identify them as combatants, nor are they in the chain of command of the government. Many Nimrathas forces and the player squad in this AP effectively acted on their own initiative. And because of this, they, like most guerrilla forces, are formally unlawful combatants without usual immunity for actions for combatants.

Furthermore, I would like to point out that while we are clearly mercenaries in this mission, the characters are not necessarily legally mercenaries, as the following criteria must be met by Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 1977 (Article 47), which is the main international document on this issue:

1. Specifically recruited (locally or abroad) to participate in an armed conflict.
2. Actual direct participation in hostilities.
3. Motivation is primarily private gain, and the promised financial compensation significantly exceeds the pay of regular military personnel of similar rank.
4. Not a citizen of a party to the conflict and does not reside in territory controlled by a party to the conflict.
5. Not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict.
6. Not sent by a state not party to the conflict in an official capacity (as a member of its armed forces).

Personally, I believe the third rule is likely not met here, and the fourth may very well not be, depending on the characters. Moreover, being a mercenary is not actually an automatic crime under international law. International Convention against the Recruitment, Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries of 1989 and the African Convention of 1977 can hardly claim the status of globally important sources of international law due to the fact that they are recognized only by a very small number of countries.

AceofMoxen wrote:

The adventure offers no off-ramp for sabotaging the Society's Semi-neutral status.

Why should there be? Policy is for Society leadership, not on-the-ground operatives, to decide. If the Absalom mucky-mucks want to ditch neutrality, ours but to do, and die.

Yes. This could be grounds for considering the characters war criminals for posing as non-combatants. This could be grounds for demanding that the Society impose sanctions against the characters, or at least formally disavow them. However, such a mission does not negate the violation of the Society's neutral status, since this mission, if I understand correctly, was not approved or sanctioned by the chain of command from the Society's leaders; instead, its members are acting as mercenaries.

By the way, I looked into what you described in Society Scenario #7-14: Brastlewark at War, Part 2: The Gnome Liberation, namely the forced use of gnomes' magical abilities.

I'll point out that these are generally completely legal actions under modern law, even though I like to use it in the context of the archaic world.

ILO Convention No. 29 concerning Forced or Compulsory Labour defines forced labor as "all work or service which is exacted from any person under the menace of any penalty and for which the said person has not offered himself voluntarily."

However, Article 2(2)(d) expressly excludes from this definition "work or service required in cases of extraordinary circumstances, that is, in the event of war, disaster or threat of disaster (fire, flood, famine, earthquake, severe epidemic or epizootic, infestation of harmful animals, insects, or plant parasites), and generally any circumstance that threatens the life or well-being of all or part of the population."

As we can see, at this particular moment, Cheliax is at war, and Brastlewark itself is in close proximity to the front, so I see no reason why these actions would be illegal. I'm sure even Andoran would be quite comfortable with such methods, and their primary motivation for these actions lies primarily in the fact that these gnomes wish to desert from supporting their enemies.

I do think there's a fair criticism that going for classic fantasy aesthetics and tropes can clash with the desire to present these differing worldviews and moralities. The structures of a society will influence the worldviews of those present in the society, and there can be some odd moments of unintentional clashing from this in many settings that are combining classic fantasy tropes with a more "modern" morality. A highly authoritarian system of absolute monarchy combined with feudalism where the majority of people are owned as part of the land of their local lord will have impacts on the way this society views the world. It would be very strange to combine this society with a commonly-held worldview that placed significant respect on individual rights and the autonomy and freedom of all of the society's members. I think we should assume that fantasy settings can have a very wide variety of morals and worldviews, but that those should be a plausible result of the structures that impact the...

Yes, I apologize for citing specific dates and contexts. Rather, I want to say that for me, TTRPGs are largely a way to immerse myself in the role of an inhabitant of another world, one that can be very different from our own, with different views on morality, society, personality, and much more. I find this approach to be a more interesting and fulfilling gaming experience, at least for me. And these views can, of course, differ radically from our modern views, and, accordingly, the character's actions. I don't see any problem with this fact, because I can easily distinguish between my own views and the actions of a character living in another world shaped by local culture and society. Therefore, I prefer a darker, historical, and naturalistic approach to the fantasy genre. Fantasy, where we essentially live within the framework of modern moral views, but in more archaic settings and with magic, seems extremely boring to me and raises too many questions about why this world works the way it does.

Which part of the world had a 'definition of morality' that included 'the good gods are in a polyamorous lesbian relationship?' (That was in first edition, right?)

The fictional world's morality is what we make it, and if we include Native American, African, and Asian societies in 'pre-17th century morality,' we can probably have a historical basis for almost whatever we want.

On reflection, my real point here is that the game provoked an emotional reaction in me that nearly lead to me using the X-card. It is clear that the adventure thought this would be just a fun hop into and out of a war. I want to bring attention that "War" is a serious word, especially between or among human-ish creatures. I have no problem exterminating the undead or Demons. Humans and Kin have an innate right to mercy.

On the slavery, it's not an x-card topic for me (at least, in this manner), but I did want to, again, illuminate that this adventure needs a content warning, in my opinion.

In response, I'll remind you that we actually have many historical examples of homosexual relations not being harshly condemned. Take, for example, Ancient Greece. So I don't see this as a big problem. Although, of course, I do think that the scale of how Paizo's authors depict homosexual relations and transgender characters goes far beyond what I would consider normal in an archaic society.

And again, I'm not saying this is a problem in itself; my personal dissatisfaction with it lies in the context. When I play science fiction rather than fantasy with my table, we, on the contrary, strive to depict a world where such things have long been accepted and considered completely normal, just as we now recognize that people possess, on average, similar potential regardless of their race, something even progressive philosophers would have disagreed with a few centuries ago. Instead, society in such a future is preoccupied with other social issues that our society hasn't yet fully grasped.

Likewise, when I play fantasy games, I generally prefer more archaic worldviews and morality. I understand that not everyone likes this, as you demonstrated with your example. But just as you defend your right to your own vision, I will also defend my right to a realistic, archaic world.

Ultimately, I play TTRPGs to immerse myself in the mindset of a character who lives not in our world, but in another, with its own laws and principles. In fantasy, I want to see a more archaic world. And conversely, in science fiction, a more progressive one. And both archaism and progressiveness can seem alien, shocking, and wrong to us, and for me, that's perfectly fine. At least I can perfectly distinguish between my views in real life and those of characters in another world.

So, I don't believe that Golarion should even have the concept of a "combatant," where those waging war according to the rules are clearly distinguished from both peaceful civilians and illegal soldiers. And all other concepts regarding war crimes are within the scope of the Geneva Convention.

I'll note my point that I'd prefer the game adhere to a definition of morality and the concept of "war crime" no later than the seventeenth century. Otherwise, fantasy reminiscent of the past simply becomes modernity in a less technologically advanced world. This is important to me because such things represent a problem in that my suspension of disbelief simply ceases to function. Frankly, with many elements of the second edition, I find it difficult to believe that a world built on such principles would work.

I'd like to point out that, at least in my personal opinion, the decision to remove slavery from the setting was largely mistaken, so I don't share your opinion.

Secondly, it's questionable, to say the least, to try to assert standard Earthly concepts of "war crimes" in a more archaic world. Especially in categories like the ones you've presented, such as prohibiting false surrenders or conducting reconnaissance operations without uniform, disguised as civilians.

This would be a shame for multiple reasons—Rahadoum should be able to restore its territorial integrity, and realistically it is much stronger than a newly-constituted Corentyne state and should be able to just seize the place. But you are probably right—Paizo's description of how the locals resent and fear the Pure Legion and prefer an alternative seems to be setting up the place to fall under Corentyn as a matter of self-determination, even if it's the self-determination of Orani pied-noirs or Capetown Afrikaners.

I'm wondering if Khari could become an independent city-state as a neutral territory? Something like Tangier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangier_International_Zone

Here is my assumptions on future borders of region: https://sun9-52.userapi.com/s/v1/ig2/GEO4TIciNle39R9juMPrLB7bTDVcgSlGJdEoxt N8hAkEkgW4hoyOsLyMuZUqYV2AdLc5op94EJgjYKJgwo7c0onO.jpg?quality=95&as=32 x21,48x32,72x48,108x72,160x107,240x160,360x240,480x320,540x360,640x427,720x 480,1080x720,1280x853,1440x960,1920x1280&from=bu&u=940CKSd570WXg_Hh daO8D0hGDuHQQOsGpblNpOAHPsc&cs=1920x0

In my view, Ravounel and Nidal will remain largely untouched by the war, geographically and territorially, although I do allow for some southern expansion in Ravounel's case.

I believe Corentyn will occupy a significant portion of the western coast. Pezzak and the Strix will also be freed from Cheliax control, but I'm honestly not sure whose control they will fall under. I don't believe Corentyn will advance east to Westcrown and take control of it. Simply because, in that case, Westcrown, as a much larger city, would have dominated, and the state wouldn't have been named that way.

Scorchhome, in my view, will control Chitterwood and likely expand eastward to the Aspodel Mountains. Simply because I doubt the goblins will sufficiently respect Cheliax's artificial borders and right to the foothills. Isger, accordingly, will control the remnants of its former territories.

I'm quite certain that Khari won't be under direct Cheliax control after the war ends. But I'm not sure what will happen to it specifically. I'd imagine its position will be uncertain for a while, and an adventure will be released later on, focusing on the city's fate.

The biggest question I don't know yet is what will happen to Cheliax. Will it be Worldwound 2.0 Electric Bungalow, but now with devils? Or will Cheliax remain a "normal" state? At least in the event of a Hellish invasion, I imagine Andoran will try to gain a foothold in Sirminium territory. I also think something is bound to happen to Westcrown. I mean, it may no longer be Cheliax's capital, but it's too populous, too influential, and too historically important to ignore.

Kavlor wrote:

Although I still have a question about why the books are so different in tone and narrative. I mean, they were obviously developed by the same company and written simultaneously, but it feels as if each book was written with a different artistic vision. At least, that's my expectation based on the available information.

This one is easy for me : Hellfire dispatches is the story Paizo wants to tell, and maybe even play, internally.

While Hellbreakers is the AP they want / need to sell.

Well, if that's the reason, I think it's rather sad, because I'd like to see more serious, bold, and mature stories. I agree that the first edition had serious problems, but the alternative isn't particularly good either, as the end result would be very bland.

I am curious what is the issue with Hellbreakers?

I have my reasons, but they mainly stem from the fact that, in my personal view, Hellbreakers oversimplifies certain themes.

For example, I thought the resolution of the goblin relationship in the adventure was overly simplistic, even though relatively recently (at least for humans) the two sides were fighting a near-war of extermination, and there are still many people alive who witnessed that war and were deeply affected by it, whether through personal trauma or the loss of family. I wasn't convinced by how the conflict would be resolved relatively easy after all that had happened for both sides, at least how book portrait.

Similarly, there were s other details. For example, I was somewhat dissatisfied with the portrayal of the Hellknights. Caedo, personally, didn't seem like a very good example of a Hellknight (especially compared to Owlcat's Regill), nor was he a particularly memorable villain. Compared to, say, Hell Rebells, I think Barzilai is much more impressive.

Overall, the overall tone of the adventure about fighting evil is quite optimistic and, in my opinion, somewhat naive.

Again, these are my personal complaints, but I do admit that the adventure, on the other hand, avoids many of the more straightforward problems found in some other APs. For example, there's sometimes a discrepancy between the AP's advertising and the actual plot, as was the case with Wardens of Wildwood. Or there are abrupt changes in the story, events, and characters' goals, as was the case, for example, in Second Darkness and Gatewalkers. In this regard, I have no complaints; the events follow logically from the premises, and there are no major revelations that necessitate abandoning everything that came before.

I'd like to point out that the available war notes from Hellfire Dispatches show that it's actually a very good book, especially compared to Hellbreakers, which I personally have a very low opinion of due to its simplification of many complex topics. But Hellfire Dispatches actually presents a very sober view of the war effort, without excessively glorifying the brave and kind people of Andoran fighting against Cheliax. Here is lore compilation from book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1s2fcu5/lost_omens_hellfire_ dispatches_lore_updates/

If you look at the Hell Knights, you see that their position is quite logical, given their views. Nail, Torrent, and Scar are located outside of Cheliax, so naturally they refused to follow orders. Godclaw... personally, I expected a schism and at least partial allegiance to Cheliax from them, but I can understand their neutrality. Finally, Pike aren't all that bad, and I can understand why they act the way they do.

On the other hand, Gate is too closely associated with diabolism. Pyre and Rack are ideological accomplices of the crown. Glyph are hardly full-fledged Hellknights, while Line was specifically formed from loyalists. Finally, I personally believe the Wall are not particularly happy to submit to the crown, but they didn't have much of a choice. After all, when your order was formed to defend a specific city, and an army is advancing on it, deserting would be a direct violation of your oath.

I can also understand why Scourge and Chain are divided, although I expected a more determined and stubborn resistance from Scourge. On the other hand, I'm interested in the fate of Chain citadel, as it held not only innocent political prisoners but also absolute scumbags who are quite difficult to kill by conventional means and require magical means to contain. A prison riot in such a situation promises to be... interesting.

On the other hand, Andoran is also portrayed as quite uneven, as various factions of the Eagle Knights are in conflict with each other. The very adherence to democracy in a wartime environment may be questionable. Tieflings are lynched simply based on their skin color and suspicion, while the Lumber Consortium profits. It's a very good and believable demonstration of democracy in a wartime environment. The only thing missing is former aristocrats somehow assisting Cheliax.

At the same time, unstated but quite obvious underhanded actions are evident. For example, the Duke of Taldor blocked the Sellen River under the ostensible goal of preventing the war from escalating, taking advantage of the princess's inactivity, but actually harming Andoran and aiding Cheliax with his actions.

Andoran itself is reluctant to enter into direct and open conflict with Taldor, nor are its potential allies. So Galt, Highhelm, and Kyonin are gathering the Bellis Company with their "volunteers" (roughly equivalent to the Chinese troops in Korea) to assist Andoran with a formally unaffiliated group, without committing their forces to the main front.

I'm somewhat concerned that Andoran is seeking help from the Shackles, as they're primarily useful against enemy trade, not against a real fleet. Each pirate captain is interested in their own gain, not in achieving Andoran's goal of victory in the war. Realistically, I'd expect 50% of the pirates to desert before reaching the theater of war, and the remaining 50% to plunder everyone in sight instead of helping the war.

Plus, it's clearly shown that all the major powers in the region are reluctant to get involved in the conflict between the two states. Qadira and Taldor are only marginally involved, but Absalom, Osirion, and Katapesh are rightly reluctant to fight for each other's interests.

I like that it's quite accurately shown that not all Cheliax residents who don't want to rebel against the country are villains, slave traders, torturers, and commit other atrocities. For example, the Khari are even more repulsive to the alternative, and overall, this resonates realistically with the views of the European and Jewish populations in North Africa on the independence of these countries.

Plus, I was really pleased that this book eliminates the Hellbreakers' naive and optimistic outlook. Isger is now moving more toward a failed state fragmented into many parts. The League has nominally won, but individual cities care more about themselves than the country as a whole, and they don't even control the capital. The goblins want the humans expelled, and I'm glad about that, because the AP, in my opinion, portrayed the end of the war's legacy, which almost reached genocide, as overly simplistic. We're left with worshipers of Asmodeus who refuse to leave, and then there's the Iron Rose. Plus, Isger's army is completely uncontrolled and acts independently.

I think it's generally clear that the conflicts with Molthune and Nidal won't end with Hell Destiny, though I expect the war between Andoran and Cheliax to end with this book. Moreover, the rebellion against Nidal will likely end in failure or at least a stalemate. Otherwise, there would be no point in a book about the region that explores its post-war geography and politics.

I still hope that, judging by the descriptions of Hell Destiny and the upcoming Cheliax book, the infernal monarchy will lose. I still claim that a world in which Cheliax had won this war would be much more interesting. But I'm at least convinced that this book takes a very sober approach to its depiction of war. If Hellbreakers is a 3/10 for me, then I expect Hellfire Dispatches to be an 8/10.

Although I still have a question about why the books are so different in tone and narrative. I mean, they were obviously developed by the same company and written simultaneously, but it feels as if each book was written with a different artistic vision. At least, that's my expectation based on the available information.

Does anyone know what each of the Kardaji Bay nations are based on? I don't know that much about bronze age civilisations and would love to do some research.

IMO:

Midea, Theiron and Mishirya - greek colonies in Asia
Khattib - something new to Mesopotamia or Elam
Hukaris - Assyrian or Akkad
Unbroken League - mix of above

Am I correct in understanding that the content of this thread and the discussion that took place here were used during the creation of the Kardaji Bay guide?

A set of thoughts regarding the Padishah Empire of Kelesh, as we now know much more about it and its people, thanks to the latest AP release. We've received information on six new satrapies of the Padishah Empire of Kelesh, so we now have at least minimal information on ten of the fourteen states that made up the empire, plus the remaining lands under direct imperial control.

Below is a collection of my observations and conclusions:

* The Althameri are one of the main peoples of the empire, likely dominant in the Ayyarad satrapy, as well as in the central lands of the empire. Drawing analogies from real history, they seem to me more similar to various Iranian-speaking Scythian peoples, such as the Sakas and Pathrans.
* The Aishmayar are the population of the Mishyria satrapy, or rather its ancient inhabitants, who have since become known as Mishyrians, as well as Beshzens. We've already established their satrapy. They seemed to me a very strange mix of religious beliefs, in some ways even reminiscent of Mycenaean Greece.
* Khattibi - quite obviously, these are the indigenous population of the satrapy of Khattib, in addition to the Vudrani who also live there (since it directly borders it). They have a very strange vibe based on the descriptions. The temple cities in the jungle and the geographical location somehow make me think of something like the city-states of the Indus Valley civilization.
* Midean - the population of the satrapies of Midea and Thieron, Greek settlers living in Asia. This fact was a big surprise to me, as I thought Midea would be closer to the culture of Kelesh and Ninshabur. After all, Kelesh is clearly Persia, and its historical enemy was Media, which is very consistent with Midea.
* The Susianam are a people who most likely lack a satrapy and are distributed along the entire southern coast of Casmaron, primarily inhabiting Khattib. I don't know anything about them, so I can't draw any conclusions.
* The Tzorehiyi are a people who inhabit the steppes and plains of the Padishah Empire. Their ethnic satrapy is likely the previously mentioned Zelshabbar on the border with the Grass Sea, or they live in the Whistling Plains; I'm not sure of their location. They are possibly related to the Althameri and Karas.

The Qadira are of pre-Keleshitic origin, which later assimilated into settlers from all over the Padishah Empire. Tirakawhan is located in Garund, so the indigenous population is most likely dominant there. I like to think of this place as analogous to Zanzibar. The Hukaris population is primarily descended from Ninshaburians and is possibly one of the largest groups with their presence. The Unbroken League is a mix of city-states, with different groups having Midian, Ninshaburian, and Khattibi origins.

This is what we already know about the various satrapies. Beyond this, there are also other ethnic groups for the remaining four satrapies, which have not yet been mentioned anywhere.

* Amai Birti - definitely do not have their own satrapy
* Jalunahs and Qalahs - may very well have their own satrapies.
* Ninshaburians, Yenchaburians, and Karas groups within the empire may also have their own lands, depending on how far east and north the empire extends.
* It's difficult for me to comment on the Casmar people, as there is virtually no information about them, nor about their way of life.

I believe the Empire at least nominally lays claim to the Whistling Plains, Windswept Wastes, and the Parchlands, but likely holds no tangible, de facto control over them. This means that Kelesh likely lacks true and complete control over the southern coast of the Castrovin Sea. They may have trading ports connected to the rest of the Empire via rivers, but it's unlikely they have complete control over the area. On the other hand, Kelesh has no authority over Kaskkari or the Grass Sea.

Of non-human groups, we know that dwarves inhabit Qadira. The Empire likely has a significant number of centaurs. Cyclopes, fauns, harpies, and minotaurs are likely present in the southern coastal lands. Khattib and the Unbroken League are likely the primary habitats of the Kashrishi. A certain number of catfolk and lizardfolk inhabit the central deserts.

Well, now we finally have a little more information about this part of the setting. We have descriptions of Iblydos and the Kardaji Bay. I don't have the books to say anything about it (and I would love to get a quick summary of the new lore), but I understand that the lore development for this region of the world has finally moved forward.

I would really like to see Andoran lose, personally. Andoran is one of my least favorite parts of the setting, as I find it too positive and boring. Andoran under diabolical occupation? That's a whole other question, and that setting would be much, much more interesting. And overall, I'm a fan of the setting retaining its dark past and willingness to tackle dark themes, as it did in its early days.

I would say that the Cyclopes really do seem to be an option for players, unlike the Jotuns. Since the Cyclopes have been in the setting since the beginning, we know of at least three large populations of Cyclopes in the setting, with different cultures, traditions, etc. And in addition, the Cyclopes have their own magic, which can be implemented in the game, in the form of their natural ability to divination.

In reality it's quite simple. Pathfinder Kingmaker CRPG and Golarion lore.

How often does "there's a law against it" stop a PC from doing something though?

Like "characters trying to survive in a hostile place" is a pretty standard story in this sort of thing.

From my point of view, this is a serious enough obstacle, and one created specifically against players from Avistan, that I consider it right to get rid of it.

Kavlor wrote:

To be honest, I'm not a fan of Arcadia book. I mean, it could be good, but I'm not a fan of concept of almost fully-native America-analogue, cause I believe that history of colonization and formation of new cultures in colonized lands is interesting too. But if it came out, I would like to get getherer and more info about dog-folk and wyrwoods.

[...]

And about adventure paths, there a few things that I would like to see. For example AP that would denounce Segada Protocol in lore.

"I don't want an Arcadia book because I don't like that it's not repeating the story of foreign colonization" and "I want an AP about ending the restrictions on colonization by Fantasy Europeans empires in Fantasy America" are both wild to just say out loud. I'm very glad you're not making decisions for Pathfinder.

Go re-read any of a dozen "slaughter the natives and take their gold" fantasy books from the 80s and 90s, there's no shortage of those.

Yeah, I don't like that we have a law in the lore that makes it illegal for Avistan characters to be in most of northern Arcadia. I think it's a huge limiting factor for the freedom of the player characters. Call it what you will, but I still stand by it.

Also, like I said, the colonial history is still pretty interesting to me, and it could give us a lot of unique cultures in Arcadia. I don't like it when the world is presented in a simplistic and toothless way, and I wanted Paizo to be more bold and provocative in their writing. I want a New York equivalent. I want devil-worshipping conquistadors. I want a harpy kingdom in southern Arcadia with parrot-like feathers and a carnival like Brazil. I want a story about religious exiles from Avistan migrating to the New World, just like the Puritans did. And I believe it will be interesting.

Oh, so Tolkien was the one who made hobgoblins a type of goblin after all? It seems this wasn't a creation of Wizards of the Coast. And thus, it is entirely okay for Paizo to make hobgoblins related to goblins.

There is a funny detail connected with this. The thing is that the word "goblin" as well as the prefix "hob" existed in the English language before. However, Tolkien made one unique mistake that determined the entire appearance of the hobgoblins. The thing is that the prefix "hob" in English means the fact that this creature is smaller than normal. So Tolkien literally created his main creation "hobbits". However, in the case of "hobgoblin" Tolkien made a mistake by saying that hobgoblins are taller than ordinary goblins, although in his letters he noted that it should be the other way around. And thus, in all fantasy, hobgoblins in their modern form were formed as taller relatives of goblins.

I'd like a story set in Taldor that would focus on chariot racing, given how important it was in Byzantium, and also the opportunity to reference Ben-Hur, a classic of world cinema.

But any way, there is no real logical sence that Qadira have bigger population in canon, than Cheliax. It seems very strange and odd for me.

SNIP

This is generally a fairly adequate estimate, but I would note that this population is significantly underestimated due to the fact that most of the cities in the setting are abnormally small in population. It is even difficult for me to say what is the reason for this. Perhaps the problem is the large number of monsters, due to which only part of the territories are populated by people, which is a natural barrier to the formation of large cities. But seriously, compare the Inner Sea and Europe in terms of the number of cities with a population of over 100,000 people, the numbers will be completely incomparable.

In addition, we have a good map that we can use for our purposes in the Inner Sea basin - a first edition map that includes a scale. So we can quite easily calculate the population of rural areas based on this data. Moreover, if we wish, we can take a lower population density for some territories that are especially dangerous.

By the way, am I the only one who wonders why we have Duskwalkers and Samsarans in canon both? I mean, they are two very similar looking races, both of which fulfill a similar idea - to be mortal beings who are sent to reincarnation. The only difference between them is that the Samsarans do it all the time. I actually have a theory that they are actually one people, but just live of different continents.

Kavlor wrote:

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

SNIP

I would say that in medieval society 90% of population was a peasants. Also, due to size of Cheliax and fact that Golarion comparable with Earth, Cheliax population would 20-40 millions.

As I understand, it's a little more complicated than that. Even if it's true, none of the Inner Sea's nations exactly map to the feudal model it was developed for. I recall that 3.5 had something like it for kingdom building, but there's no reason for Paizo to be bound to it if they don't want to be.

More advanced forms of economic organization will only increase the potential population. In fact, there are not many ways to reduce the population of a territory equivalent to Southern Europe in terms of climate. And as far as I know, in the last few years there has not been a war that would kill 10% of the population, a large-scale epidemic or mass starvation.

The only thing that can lead to a country having a smaller population is the presence of powerful and dangerous monsters that the army and locals do not risk getting involved with.

So using the canonical figures of 300 thousand as the population of these territories is absolutely wrong. I would rather prefer an approximation of the population based on the known area of ​​the territory and known data on population density in certain periods of history.

SNIP

I would say that in medieval society 90% of population was a peasants. Also, due to size of Cheliax and fact that Golarion comparable with Earth, Cheliax population would 20-40 millions.

I would also like to point out that Casmaron should absolutely give us the ability to create harpies. We already have similar flying peoples, and it would be completely wrong to deprive us of such capabilities with harpies, especially considering that they are one of the first things that come to mind when we think of flying creatures in fantasy.

I still think we need Shifter class as class Archetype for Druids that would make them decent martials.

With Tar-Baphon to the north and Cheliax to the West that starts to put some major strain on The Shining Kingdoms and the southern Kingdoms of The Eye of Dread. How will Andoran work as a group of 'Plucky Rebels' rather than a nation? Will the Eagle Knights make some uncomfortable choices if it means defeating Cheliax? Maybe Nirmanthas and Oprak are able to bury the hatchet after Ironfang Invasion to stand up against a resurgent Cheliax, or will they be ground between the Lich and the evil empire? If Andoran falls, can Eutropia's Taldor and Kyonin, ravaged from their fight against Treerazer, pull themselves together from their recent troubles in time to push back the literal legions of hell?

I absolutely agree. The only thing that could compare to Andoran's victory in my opinion is if Cheliax literally became a copy of Germany after WWII, in a situation where Andoran and other parties to the conflict begin to cooperate with yesterday's bureaucrats of the regime simply because they need to somehow manage the lands. In exchange for the secrets of Asmodeus, Andoran provides a generous amnesty program for yesterday's devils and aristocrats. The country is divided into military occupation zones. A separate part of the country is made an independent state for halflings, evicting all humans from there. The underground of infernalists is extensive and present in all major cities of the country, organizing the evacuation of former supporters of the monarchy in Bloodcove.

This would be an interesting setting, and an extremely dark one, which I would gladly watch. But I doubt that we will ever show Andoran in this form.

In fact, my biggest hope is that Cheliax wins the war. Because I think, quite unironically, that would be a more interesting storyline than the standard victory of good in the form of Andoran.

Thought of another ancestry that might make sense in the Pathfinder setting. And what about the Selkie? A good choice for an aquatic race that doesn't lose on land.