The current playtest and the changes you wish to see

[oholoko]

Okay starting with the mandatory I loved both classes, the psychic seems playable out of the box outside of the unleash, most of the times you will only trigger it after quite a while and they all don't seem that interesting. The amps are insanely cool making for what I think is the best blaster in the game having pseudo infinite blasting spells as the buffed cantrips are quite strong.

The thamaturge can be a good ranged combatant and a capable melee one... But what he needs is well more abilities that work with magic, most of his class features dont trigger with magic items for a class that prizes itself on using trinkets. I would loved if trick magic item was an option outside of the current recall knowledge one. Something juryrigging magic items so that they can exploit opponent weaknesses.

[gesalt]

Psychic
1. Needs a 3rd slot. What it gets isn't worth enough to warrant that loss.
2. Needs its perception fixed.
3. TK rend's scaling when not amped (or using an alternative amp) is trash. Better to let it scale normally, split the dice however you want and have amp add a die along with the second AoE.
4. Nudge intent is easily worked around and should force the action to be done at turn start if it wants to see any use
5. None of the advanced cantrips are good
6. I wish ancestral mind were baseline because, as usual, it's essentially human only and they already have adaptive cantrip

Thaumaturge
1. At least give it cha to attack vs their EA target
2. Let them ignore rarity on their Recalls
3. Waive the need to find flaws to apply EA to identical creatures in the same encounter.
4. Wand damage scaling is miserable, make it per level

[Salamileg]

gesalt wrote:

Psychic

1. Needs a 3rd slot. What it gets isn't worth enough to warrant that loss.

I think I'd rather see them keep the 2 slots but give them something that makes giving those up worth it. I like the idea of a caster where cantrips are the core of what you're using and spells are a backup option, sort of the reverse of all the current casters.

[vagrant-poet]

Some massaging of the amp effects and little details, and staying 2 slots with lots of boosted cantrips and unleashes is WAY more interesting to me than 3 slots and less pronounced amps.

[oholoko]

Salamileg wrote:

gesalt wrote:

Psychic

1. Needs a 3rd slot. What it gets isn't worth enough to warrant that loss.

I think I'd rather see them keep the 2 slots but give them something that makes giving those up worth it. I like the idea of a caster where cantrips are the core of what you're using and spells are a backup option, sort of the reverse of all the current casters.

I do wonder if giving the cantrips +1 damage/level baseline would be enough or at least change unleash to do so. But I do find what they do already to be quite good. Maybe also treat amped cantrips as regular spells for effects that take spell slots into account.

[The Raven Black]

This should go to the Playtest boards ;-)

[Tonya Woldridge]

Moved thread to Playtest discussions

[siegfriedliner]

gesalt wrote:

Psychic

1. Needs a 3rd slot. What it gets isn't worth enough to warrant that loss.
2. Needs its perception fixed.
3. TK rend's scaling when not amped (or using an alternative amp) is trash. Better to let it scale normally, split the dice however you want and have amp add a die along with the second AoE.
4. Nudge intent is easily worked around and should force the action to be done at turn start if it wants to see any use
5. None of the advanced cantrips are good
6. I wish ancestral mind were baseline because, as usual, it's essentially human only and they already have adaptive cantrip

Thaumaturge
1. At least give it cha to attack vs their EA target
2. Let them ignore rarity on their Recalls
3. Waive the need to find flaws to apply EA to identical creatures in the same encounter.
4. Wand damage scaling is miserable, make it per level

I would probably go the other way with the psychic more powerful amped cantrips are what I want even if that came at a cost of even less spell slot (wouldn't mind a burst psychic with truly competive amped cantrips).

[Rellkin]

I would like to make a case that Thaumaturge implements just get treated like worn tools/kits(may be drawn and stowed as part of the action) rather then the clunky switching mechanic they currently have. This also allows for a better action economy with scrolls and other magic items that thier feats grant.

[gesalt]

various people wrote:

2 slots is fine just buff cantrips/amping

I don't trust paizo to buff them so magnificently that they blow bard out of the water and earn that lost slot. Given their hesitancy to give anything post crb some real punch I'm wary of ending up with a double down on the witch where the features really don't justify the missing slots.

I know people are going to say something about comparing to the Bard but since it already exists at its power level then the psychic has to at least try to match it if it wants to be worthwhile.

So far, the big one I can see is mental scan which is a built in one-for-all (unknown skill though, that needs a fix). Even better, it stacks with inspire courage so you can archetype for it and give everyone +2 to hit by yourself by amping the scan and inspiring.

Edit
It's actually pretty smooth
Amp, inspire, demoralize
Amp, inspire, strike (actually worth it at +2)
Unleash, amp, inspire
Amp, inspire, strike

And only blow spells in important fights. I still want that 3rd slot though.

[Verdyn]

gesalt wrote:

It's actually pretty smooth

Amp, inspire, demoralize
Amp, inspire, strike (actually worth it at +2)
Unleash, amp, inspire
Amp, inspire, strike

And only blow spells in important fights. I still want that 3rd slot though.

Wouldn't that make fights pretty boring though? I thought the design goal of PF2 was to avoid set action loops for a given class.

[The Raven Black]

gesalt wrote:

various people wrote:

2 slots is fine just buff cantrips/amping

I don't trust paizo to buff them so magnificently that they blow bard out of the water and earn that lost slot. Given their hesitancy to give anything post crb some real punch I'm wary of ending up with a double down on the witch where the features really don't justify the missing slots.

I know people are going to say something about comparing to the Bard but since it already exists at its power level then the psychic has to at least try to match it if it wants to be worthwhile.

So far, the big one I can see is mental scan which is a built in one-for-all (unknown skill though, that needs a fix). Even better, it stacks with inspire courage so you can archetype for it and give everyone +2 to hit by yourself by amping the scan and inspiring.

Edit
It's actually pretty smooth
Amp, inspire, demoralize
Amp, inspire, strike (actually worth it at +2)
Unleash, amp, inspire
Amp, inspire, strike

And only blow spells in important fights. I still want that 3rd slot though.

Just a note : you do not absolutely have to match the most powerful Caster to be worthwhile.

[gesalt]

Verdyn wrote:

gesalt wrote:

It's actually pretty smooth

Amp, inspire, demoralize
Amp, inspire, strike (actually worth it at +2)
Unleash, amp, inspire
Amp, inspire, strike

And only blow spells in important fights. I still want that 3rd slot though.

Wouldn't that make fights pretty boring though? I thought the design goal of PF2 was to avoid set action loops for a given class.

In my experience, it's more you have 3 strategies. One for solo or duo bosses, one for big hordes, one for everything else. The specifics will change based on the party but that's about it. Any variance is only if something has gone terribly wrong or if you're on a tight timetable.

The Raven Black wrote:

Just a note : you do not absolutely have to match the most powerful Caster to be worthwhile.

You do if you want to be mechanically worthwhile. If you wind up being x but worse then why do you even exist? Flavor? Flavor's great but it's probably not hard to convince a gm to let you staple psychic flavor to a better chassis. Mechanics are what matter, especially for a playtest. If the psychic can't measure up to the other spontaneous, occult, focus cantrip heavy spellcaster, then that's a problem.

Chassis-wise, the psychic loses everywhere except will saves. The cantrips and feats need to be absolutely wild to make up that gap and the missing spell and less flexible spells known. And even if I like the idea of +2 to entire party always starting at level 8, I like the idea of better spell flexibility and another slot more. That's all just theory though. I'll need to see how it holds up in testing.

[Lanathar]

A third slot would likely require the amps to be tuned down from what they already are.

That doesn't seem satisfying.

In my experience people seem to horde their slots and spam cantrips quite a lot anyway. Especially if they have picked electric arc. So why not lean into it?

[graystone]

The Raven Black wrote:

Just a note : you do not absolutely have to match the most powerful Caster to be worthwhile.

Well, you should be close when you are 1 slot behind the bard every spell level. If you're behind the bard in focus cantrips AND slots it's an issue. If you're behind in every aspect [heck even in SKILLS!], it feels worse.

[Arachnofiend]

I really think amped focus cantrips need to be strictly better than the comparable focus spells. I like the psychic being a warlocky type of caster that's more focused on their small selection of ol' reliables than the full breadth of the spell list but those ol' reliables need to actually be strong to justify that.

[Morridyn]

I want to see more mental attack spells akin to the old psychic attacks. Don’t all have to be damage based, could be status affects. Could roll them into the psi cantrips.

[Golurkcanfly]

Both should receive adjustments to their math, particularly the damage of the Psychic's Telekinetic Conscious Mind and the Thaumaturge's Wand

Psychic:

1) Either give it 3 slots per spell level or make those amped cantrips really strong
2) Wisdom Subconscious Mind
3) Time and Energy Manipulation Conscious Minds
4) More Mesmerist Feats

Thaumaturge:

1) Flex between INT, CHA, or WIS for it
2) A Feature so you don't need to play keep up with spending skill increases to actually succeed using Find Flaws and ignore/reduce the DC increase from Rarity
3) Give the Thaumaturge an additional bonus when targeting an existing weakness, like Sickening the monster
4) Open up features to allow for other fighting styles like two handed weapons
5) Merge Pacts with the existing Contract Magic Items, and Thaumaturge instead gets feats to interact with those Contracts more easily and in unique ways
6) Allow Thaumaturge to quickdraw more magic items, like the scrolls it can create
7) Open-Ended Class Feats to customize Implements

That last one is the most important. The Implements should be a bit more customizable using feats, like the wand should get a feat that lets you choose a spell to cast from it a couple times per day or so, the weapon should get a bonus property rune like the Blade Ally, the chalice getting to emulate potions, and so on.

[Golurkcanfly]

Oh man, I forgot another one for the Thaumaturge:

The ability to switch between implements would be super nice, either as a reworking of the existing system (like you get one Primary Implement that gets the full benefits and then multiple other implements you can swap out daily/hourly as you level up) or as a class feat. Though I realize this could get funky if you add feats that customize those implements, and if I had to choose one, I'd take the feats instead of the flexibility.

[graystone]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Oh man, I forgot another one for the Thaumaturge:

The ability to switch between implements would be super nice, either as a reworking of the existing system (like you get one Primary Implement that gets the full benefits and then multiple other implements you can swap out daily/hourly as you level up) or as a class feat. Though I realize this could get funky if you add feats that customize those implements, and if I had to choose one, I'd take the feats instead of the flexibility.

I think what would be interesting is you pick 3 implements like you do now but with your daily prep, you pick one to have 3 increases, one to have 2 and the last to have 1.

[Golurkcanfly]

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Oh man, I forgot another one for the Thaumaturge:

The ability to switch between implements would be super nice, either as a reworking of the existing system (like you get one Primary Implement that gets the full benefits and then multiple other implements you can swap out daily/hourly as you level up) or as a class feat. Though I realize this could get funky if you add feats that customize those implements, and if I had to choose one, I'd take the feats instead of the flexibility.

I think what would be interesting is you pick 3 implements like you do now but with your daily prep, you pick one to have 3 increases, one to have 2 and the last to have 1.

That would be a neat option, but it would make customizing those implements with feats a bit awkward. Maybe as a class archetype?

[graystone]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Oh man, I forgot another one for the Thaumaturge:

The ability to switch between implements would be super nice, either as a reworking of the existing system (like you get one Primary Implement that gets the full benefits and then multiple other implements you can swap out daily/hourly as you level up) or as a class feat. Though I realize this could get funky if you add feats that customize those implements, and if I had to choose one, I'd take the feats instead of the flexibility.

I think what would be interesting is you pick 3 implements like you do now but with your daily prep, you pick one to have 3 increases, one to have 2 and the last to have 1.

That would be a neat option, but it would make customizing those implements with feats a bit awkward. Maybe as a class archetype?

I think those kind of feats could work in they add options to implements in general. With 9 implements, if you have feats for each one it's going to crowd out other options. Maybe a few feats with variable effects like the summoners Evolution Surge.

[Squiggit]

Arachnofiend wrote:

I really think amped focus cantrips need to be strictly better than the comparable focus spells. I like the psychic being a warlocky type of caster that's more focused on their small selection of ol' reliables than the full breadth of the spell list but those ol' reliables need to actually be strong to justify that.

This is my thoughts too.

As far as spell slots, bumping them up to 3 and limiting their focus options just makes their comparisons to bard hit even harder. Better to tread new ground.

The psychic's problems won't be solved with spell slots. It'll be solved with better cantrips and more innate abilities.

[Golurkcanfly]

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Oh man, I forgot another one for the Thaumaturge:

The ability to switch between implements would be super nice, either as a reworking of the existing system (like you get one Primary Implement that gets the full benefits and then multiple other implements you can swap out daily/hourly as you level up) or as a class feat. Though I realize this could get funky if you add feats that customize those implements, and if I had to choose one, I'd take the feats instead of the flexibility.

I think what would be interesting is you pick 3 implements like you do now but with your daily prep, you pick one to have 3 increases, one to have 2 and the last to have 1.

That would be a neat option, but it would make customizing those implements with feats a bit awkward. Maybe as a class archetype?

I think those kind of feats could work in they add options to implements in general. With 9 implements, if you have feats for each one it's going to crowd out other options. Maybe a few feats with variable effects like the summoners Evolution Surge.

My thought was one feat each so as to not create too much clutter, but each feat gave access to multiple options. The easiest way to do this would be to have feats grant effects from a list of magical items or spell traditions or spell traits.

So your weapon can gain a bonus property rune from a list

Your wand can now cast a single spell of your choice from, say, the Evocation school a few times per day

Your chalice can now fill itself with a single potion of your choice a few times a day

Your lantern can now cast spells with the Light trait a few times per day

Your amulet could cast abjurations

Other implements could do similar things, like a Horn could cast sonic spells.

As an unintended side effect, this could actually ties it a bit closer to the 1e Occultist, which I didn't realize until just now.

And being open-ended like this is very important to me for flavor reasons, so that I can make a conductor's baton wand, a wand made from a dryad's branches, an author's stylus wand, etc. have different effects to match their more specific flavors.

[Kremlin KOA]

There should be some clarification on how Psychic spellcasting interacts with spells that have expensive material components.

[nick1wasd]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Both should receive adjustments to their math, particularly the damage of the Psychic's Telekinetic Conscious Mind and the Thaumaturge's Wand

Psychic:

1) Either give it 3 slots per spell level or make those amped cantrips really strong

Amped cantrips all the way baby!

Quote:

2) Wisdom Subconscious Mind

LET'S GO!

Quote:

3) Time and Energy Manipulation Conscious Minds

Time, no; Energy, I'm all for

Quote:

4) More Mesmerist Feats

I don't know much abut Mesmerist, but they sound cool

Quote:

Thaumaturge:

1) Flex between INT, CHA, or WIS for it

No thank you, I'm for just Wis or just Cha.

Quote:

2) A Feature so you don't need to play keep up with spending skill increases to actually succeed using Find Flaws and ignore/reduce the DC increase from Rarity

They actually already have the former, they get 3 or 4 free skill increases to any of the magic skills, which is nice, but hard to notice in the walls of text.

Quote:

3) Give the Thaumaturge an additional bonus when targeting an existing weakness, like Sickening the monster

Bet, Sickened isn't common enough, and this class seems really good for inflicting it.

Quote:

4) Open up features to allow for other fighting styles like two handed weapons

Eh... I don't think every martial class needs a 2-hander support path, although if you could affix the more passive Implements like Amulet as a Talisman to constantly give the passive effect but take away the held (re)action, I'd be okay with it for empty/full hands.

Quote:

5) Merge Pacts with the existing Contract Magic Items, and Thaumaturge instead gets feats to interact with those Contracts more easily and in unique ways

No.......... Contacts are weird, Rare, and not in any core line printed material. I don't think they should even exist as a class of "item" personally.

Quote:

6) Allow Thaumaturge to quickdraw more magic items, like the scrolls it can create

YES! I WANT THIS SO BAD ON A CLASS AND NOT JUST AN ARCHETYPE!

Quote:

7) Open-Ended Class Feats to customize Implements

Eh? I can see this concept going either way, I'm not strongly tied to it either way, but at a designer/programmer level, future proofing and cross-API style support with existing systems I can get behind as long as it's not clunky. Although I will say, it does sometimes burden future design because "how will this potion/rune/thing in this new book work with that one class feature we made 3 years ago?" and things like that.

Quote:

That last one is the most important. The Implements should be a bit more customizable using feats, like the wand should get a feat that lets you choose a spell to cast from it a couple times per day or so, the weapon should get a bonus property rune like the Blade Ally, the chalice getting to emulate potions, and so on.

See response to point 7 of Thaumaturge.

I really like the design space these classes fill, and I like a lot of what people are coming up with. When these classes come in about a year (so long, so far...) I hope they impress everyone here.

[Sporkedup]

Nick1wasd nailing my opinions on this almost to a T!

[SuperBidi]

I've read the Psychic, and failed to understand what's good to it.
Amp allows you to improve focus spells, but the bonus is so low that you can forget about it (what's the point of casting an amped Telekinetic Projectile that isn't even competing with an Electric Arc?).
And Psyche mechanism is too hard. Prerequisites to unleashing your Psyche are very limiting, the bonus is not high and you even end up with a penalty on top of it.

I've compared an Amped Telekinetic Projectile to a Fighter single attack with a Shortbow and the Telekinetic Projectile is not even better in damage. Both increase MAP, but the cantrip costs more actions, a Focus Point, has lower range for similar damage output. Where's balance in there?
An Amped Telekinetic Projectile should deal 1d12 of damage per die to just be competitive. If the whole point of the Psychic is to be strong with cantrips, they must be strong. Right now, cantrips are a joke (outside Electric Arc) and need a strong improvement to just be considered.

[Candlejake]

Thaumaturge seems pretty great. Some more implements will be nice, like a shield and maybe something for ranged, like a quiver or sth. Some more crossbow Support.
Probably an auto leveling Lore skill to use with Find Flaws so you dont have to level 6 skills.

The psychic seems super cool in concept but way undertuned. The psy cantrips are rather weak aside from Massage. Telekinetic Rend is disappointingly weak. Borderline unusable unamped and only mildly better than electric arc amped. A lot of the normal cantrips are also not that great amped.
But generally i always wanted a more Focus point focused class and the cantrip upgrading thing vibes greatly with me.

[SuperBidi]

When I read Psychic, I feel that the comparison to wave casters is the appropriate one, not the comparison to full casters.

They have roughly the same number of spells per day. You lose one of your highest level spell every odd levels for a bunch of low level spells. It's worse at low level and better at high level.
They get to Legendary proficiency, which is nice, but it only changes your DCs for 6 levels, on average, it's equivalent to +0.6 to your DC. So nice but not overwhelming.
They have no armor proficiency and 6hp.
If there was a Magus archetype who gives the same casting proficiency than the Psychic but with 6hp per level and no armor proficiency, I would call it balanced.

So, the rest of the Psychic features have to be equivalent to martial abilities...
And clearly, it fails miserably. Having a cantrip focused caster, why not. But these cantrips have to be on par with martial abilities, otherwise what's the point?

In my opinion, Amped cantrips should be at least equivalent to Focus Spells, and more Druid Focus spells than Sorcerer Focus spells. When you see Fire Ray, 2d6 damage per spell level for 60ft range, available to Clerics that are both tougher and better at casting than Psychic, that's what Amped Telekinetic Projectile should look like at a bare minimum. Amped Guidance should be way way way stronger, considering the limitations of the spell. I'd easily go up to +3 considering that you pay a focus point for it. Protection against critical failure is nice, but outside some crazy situations, you won't critically fail on much more than natural 1.
Amped Telekinetic Rend does slightly more damage than Electric Arc but deals slashing+bludgeoning damage, considering how Physical Resistances are common it's not a super good damage combo. And amping it prevents Metamagic...

Right now, I don't even know if the Psychic is on par with Alchemist, considering how bad it is.

One thing that could be great is to give higher proficiencies to the Psychic. Like Fighter proficiencies. You start at Expert, you end Legendary at level 15 with a level 19 capstone ability that is improving even more your casting ability. So, few spells per day but stronger than other casters, and cantrips for the rest of the time (strong one considering your proficiency, but still cantrips).

[rayous brightblade]

For Psychics Shatter Space and Unleash Poltergeist phenomena need to be "start your turn or the first time you enter the emanation each round." Right now people can apparently move into the areas, attack, and leave which does not meet the description of the ability.

[rayous brightblade]

Thaumaturge has an issue with the fact that he has 5 skills he needs to max in order to use his class main ability, Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion and society. He does get two free bumps for one of those (save for society) but it doesn't feel good to have to do this. This is what i think should change to fix this issue:

First, get rid of the skill training in arcana, nature occultism and religion. Also get rid of the bumps at 9 and 17.

Second, get rid of dubious knowledge (there is a reason for this, i will get back to this)

Third, All Thaumaturge get esoteric lore ability. Stress that its based off of rumors, talking to the fringe of society and eldritch beings in the flavor text so those that complain about the fact the flavor doesn't stress charisma. Since its from "not the most reliable sources" it has the effect of dubious knowledge when using it and doesn't benefit from easier recall knowledge dcs. Have it become expert at 3, master at 7 and legendary at 15. We do this because it makes it easier on the gms not to have to calculate out differing recall knowledge DCs. I would suggest that we make this special lore skill always work off of charisma and remove it from find flaws.

The good thing about this method is it removes the need to spend all your skill bumps increasing knowledge skill proficiencies but if you want your character to specialize in a specific lore they don't have to have dubious knowledge apply to their specialty and they can get some good bonuses. Also might allow multiclassing into thaumaturge to use something other than charisma for find flaws.

[Rysky]

Kremlin KOA wrote:

There should be some clarification on how Psychic spellcasting interacts with spells that have expensive material components.

Material Components and Costs are two separate things in P2.

I.E. Pyschics don't get to cast those for free.

Soul Bind for example.

[keftiu]

Psychic needs some love, IMO; any time you aren't Unleashed, it feel like you're worse than the average caster, and I don't know that the perks make up for what you're lacking. I worry a lot about them out of combat, consider how limited their toolbox is and the inability to Unleash there. A lot of the Amp effects don't feel like sufficient bang for your buck to be the signature class feature.

I'd be okay with the limited spell selection if the amps had a lot of punch, and if there was some guarantee I'd have things to do in exploration mode.

[nick1wasd]

SuperBidi wrote:

One thing that could be great is to give higher proficiencies to the Psychic. Like Fighter proficiencies. You start at Expert, you end Legendary at level 15 with a level 19 capstone ability that is improving even more your casting ability. So, few spells per day but stronger than other casters, and cantrips for the rest of the time (strong one considering your proficiency, but still cantrips).

This ^

If any spellcaster gets the Fighter treatment for proficiencies, it should either be the Psychic or Arcanist, and I don't see the Arcanist coming down the pipe any time soon since SoM didn't have anything other than Flexible Casting. It makes sense, as they're a cantrip caster who's casting is based on being super-brained and potentially mentally unstable.

[SuperBidi]

nick1wasd wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

One thing that could be great is to give higher proficiencies to the Psychic. Like Fighter proficiencies. You start at Expert, you end Legendary at level 15 with a level 19 capstone ability that is improving even more your casting ability. So, few spells per day but stronger than other casters, and cantrips for the rest of the time (strong one considering your proficiency, but still cantrips).

This ^

If any spellcaster gets the Fighter treatment for proficiencies, it should either be the Psychic or Arcanist, and I don't see the Arcanist coming down the pipe any time soon since SoM didn't have anything other than Flexible Casting. It makes sense, as they're a cantrip caster who's casting is based on being super-brained and potentially mentally unstable.

I've thought a bit more about it afterward, and I think one excellent design would be to give the Psychic "Fighter Proficiency" and use Unleashed Psyche to give it 2 states.

Every time you cast a non-cantrip spell, you automatically Unleash your Psyche. And while you are unleashed, you can only cast cantrips but they are automatically amped. It prevents the Psychic from casting only spell slot spells (which would be too strong considering its higher proficiency) and you no more need to give them more than one Focus Point nor special rules if they cast Focus spells.
It would also open at least 3 types of builds:
- Builds based on spell slots that try to reduce the Unleashing by reducing its duration or have the ability to prevent it sometimes.
- Builds based on cantrips that try to increase the Unleashing, by increasing its duration or effect.
- Versatile builds that improves the effects of whatever state you're in without trying to control your state.

But, well, it's just an idea thrown.

[Dubious Scholar]

Right now, my major concerns with each class (not having had a chance to play them, just number crunching, etc):

Psychic:
1) Conscious mind cantrips for damage feel like they're too weak. I know that they're much more usable than normal focus spells, so it's a fine line... but come on Daze can be buffed more than that. Also, no +2 heightening for damage scaling, ever. Do everything possible to avoid that please.

Thaumaturge:
1) Esoteric Anathema has the issue of doing little or nothing when you can already hit a monster's weaknesses, which makes them worse than any other martial in these cases.

Besides those, just some rebalancing of more minor things would be useful? But those are my main concerns.

[Golurkcanfly]

Some more recent thoughts:

Thaumaturge:

The class could have its action economy "cheats" when it comes to stowing/drawing items consolidated and clarified, possibly into the Esoterica Feature. Make stowing items in your Esoterica a free action, have Features/Feats that cheat the action economy have the items in question as part of your Esoterica, and then have those feats specify how many actions it takes to pull that thing from your Esoterica.

Not only does this clean up some mess (can't swap Implements if you're two-handing an Implement or using another item), but can be referenced in other feats now and in the future, like the Scroll Esoterica feat has the Scrolls as part of your Esoterica, and could say you pull them out of the Esoterica as a free action when casting from the Scroll. Or you could have a feat that lets you Affix a Talisman from your Esoterica in a single action.

An example of an entirely new feat that could reference the Esoterica would be something that lets the user pull out an existing item that they own that's in their Esoterica that relates to the target's weakness when using Esoteric Antithesis. For example, you could use Esoteric Antithesis against a Troll and this feat would let you pull out an Alchemist's Fire as a free action.

Psychic:

Psyches could be adjusted to instead of having to do an action twice to unlock them, you can do them at any time, but fulfilling the prerequisite reduces the number of actions it takes to activate them.

So Unleashed Focused Intent would use three actions on Turn 1, two actions on Turn 2, one action on Turn 3, and a free action on Turn 4.

[Lightning Raven]

Psychics should receive more unique cantrips (either substituting the generic ones it currently gets or in addition to the current system).

Thaumaturge Pact Feats shouldn't be restricted to the class, it should become a separate mechanic for any class, the design space could be filled by more magic-oriented feats or better combat stuff.

[Cyder]

Psychic
Its a great start but the math is a hot mess right now. Also Caster dedication spellslots is never going to feel great, I would suggest looking at Summoner bound casting with a way to pick up additional spells via feats (like the Eidolon can).

Subconscious mind - cool idea but what exactly am I getting for the penalty? Precise Discipline is like free Eschew Components except flatfooted against Attacks of Opportunity. I can't think many existing casters would make that trade. I am sure you have better numbers than I do on how many players take Eschew Components but I doubt it is many cause its terrible. Emotional Acceptance is just way way worse. Any GM can trigger that easily and often and certain encounters like dragons or enemy bards can just have that up permanently. Its bad. if you need a penalty it needs to have a worthwhile non situational upside with this doesn't.

Conscious Mind - I actually think there should be linked to Unconsious Mind. This would allow a Wisdom option that could be balanced cause right now the wisdom option would be prefered as it is just a more universally desired stat than Int or Cha. In the current playtest I would do Wisdom = Infinite Eye, Intelligence = Distant Grasp and Charisma = Silent Whispers. Ultimately you would want to Conscious Mind choices for each stat or at least 2 on Int and Cha if you only ship with 5.

Unleashed Psyche - Numerous people have pointed out the issues with this, it takes too long to trigger, it wants you to choose between amps and spell slots, it has a penalty and the bonus is... Dangerous Sorcery feat... cool but I can get that easy and always on for 2 feats. Also makes me look even worse compared to Occult Sorcerers. Psychic needs to keep up not keep up after they jump through a bunch of hoops. Inequality in life sucks, I don't want it in game. Also Precise Discipline + Unleash Mind = -4AC vs attacks of opportunity on a low defence low HP class which is just asking for lots of dead psychics, its not necessary nothing about this class screams it needs this kind of penalty, no class does!

If Unleash is going to be a ramp up effect then at that point Psychics should start outshining other classes (not just becoming somewhat equal) if they are going to be weak for the first 2 rounds.

The baseline Unleash psyche could also be linked to choice of conscious mind if you want to tie those flavours in and have better ways of restricting/buffing Conscious Minds (can we just call them Disciplines? the naming gets confusing fast, lean into the terminology history of Psionics rather than reinvent, there is no need and its not adding anything good or unique).

Amps are a great idea. I love them, right now they not strong enough. Any amp'd damage cantrip that can be replaced with Electric Arc is a fail. The utility ones need to be a lot better Message is about the only good one. Amps are the gold in this class, more of them, make them more varied and if you can tie them to some of the old psionic attack favourites (eqo whip, Psychic Crush, Id Insinuation, Fortress of Iron Will etc). Flexible amps that improve existing cantrips is the flavour of the Psychic. But there needs to be a pool of amps for a existing common cantrips - amp'd shield allow shield block reaction to be an AoE damage reduction vs AoEs. But really off the bat there should be 2 or 3 amp'd cantrips universal to all disciples and then 1 to each discipline and the ability to use feats to buy more.

Amp'd daze should be Psionic Blast - AoE, Good damage and stun1 on crit fail - might see some use then and brings back an old psionic favourite.

Daze is the most ridiculously crap cantrip right now, low damage and stun 1 on anything likely to crit fail is nice but not game changing or important given the number of things flat out immune to it. (Seriously what was the design space for Daze? it needs an errata, most cantrips do, Electric Arc is the gold standard for cantrips and needs to be the balance point).

Thaumaturge
Rayous Brightblade on Esoteric Lore and Dubious Knowledge is right on the money. This is so much more flavourful and inline and much better for players (being able to diversify builds) and GMs (hassle of always juggling DCs).

Otherwise sickened when the target already has a weakness is awesome. Less worried about some of the other things but a feat that allows you to bind your implement to your weapon for those that want a 2 hand build would by great, supports a playstyle at a feat cost. Make it not allow you to also put a talisman on your weapon if you really really need additional drawbacks.

The other thing with this class is so many stacking buffs, its cool but its hell to juggle.

Pact of Fey Glamour - just wanted to say this feat is amazing! I am sad it is locked to a class, this is perfect fodder for 'story/campaign' general feats ala Ultimate Campaign. As a GM this is what I want a lot more off. I want other ones, far more useable than item contracts. Admittedly I run a lot more homebrew worlds than Golarion (not because I don't love Golarion I do, but my players are addicted to settings I have been running for ~15 to 20 years). Similarly Bind Oath is a great feat could also have been a story/campaign general feat.

Otherwise my only real concern with the class is how fiddly it is with the number of interactions to optimise buffs. I love it (wand damage could use a bit of a buff). I also am a little sad there is not a non-martial version of it that leaned more heavily into the utility/knowledge stuff. Alchemist I think could also do with this - keep at caster weapon profs but allow master weapon prof bonus to hit under specific circumstances (mutagenist under the effect of a mutagen increases item bonus by 2 (so stacks with any existing item bonuses)).

[Exocist]

SuperBidi wrote:

nick1wasd wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

One thing that could be great is to give higher proficiencies to the Psychic. Like Fighter proficiencies. You start at Expert, you end Legendary at level 15 with a level 19 capstone ability that is improving even more your casting ability. So, few spells per day but stronger than other casters, and cantrips for the rest of the time (strong one considering your proficiency, but still cantrips).

This ^

If any spellcaster gets the Fighter treatment for proficiencies, it should either be the Psychic or Arcanist, and I don't see the Arcanist coming down the pipe any time soon since SoM didn't have anything other than Flexible Casting. It makes sense, as they're a cantrip caster who's casting is based on being super-brained and potentially mentally unstable.

I've thought a bit more about it afterward, and I think one excellent design would be to give the Psychic "Fighter Proficiency" and use Unleashed Psyche to give it 2 states.

Every time you cast a non-cantrip spell, you automatically Unleash your Psyche. And while you are unleashed, you can only cast cantrips but they are automatically amped. It prevents the Psychic from casting only spell slot spells (which would be too strong considering its higher proficiency) and you no more need to give them more than one Focus Point nor special rules if they cast Focus spells.
It would also open at least 3 types of builds:
- Builds based on spell slots that try to reduce the Unleashing by reducing its duration or have the ability to prevent it sometimes.
- Builds based on cantrips that try to increase the Unleashing, by increasing its duration or effect.
- Versatile builds that improves the effects of whatever state you're in without trying to control your state.

But, well, it's just an idea thrown.

Giving fighter proficiency for spellcasting would probably be a huge mistake. Crit fail effects on spells in this game are broken, especially on debuffs, and save bonuses are balanced around a +5 every 4 levels from the fullcaster base.

Psychic being 2 ahead for most of the game and 4 ahead for 4 levels would up crit fail chances to about 20% targetting weak saves for on level monsters instead of 10%. That doesn’t sound like much, but ask yourself what should the chance to take out a level appropriate enemy (or encounter) instantly with one spell be?

If the damage amps are weak, buff the damage. Don’t buff DCs as that has a flow on effect to debuff spells

[Cyder]

Also at endgame when the others caught up in proficiency they would be left underpowered again. Its not a great fix.

I don't mind them having a better chance of layering specific debuffs to saves easier but increased prof is an odd solutions where it is too good and then weak.

[roquepo]

Psychic: Amps will get better for sure, I think we should focus more on Unleashes, the other core mechanic of the class that is also lacking.

They are too power neutral. Having a drawback is cool, but when the drawback is as impactful as the boon, you are not unleashing anything, you are just shifting power from one place to another. They also synergize too little with cantrips and amped cantrips.

Thaumaturge: I think the class is mostly fine, but I think it needs either more skill increases for RK skills or a Feat/Class feature like Master Monster Hunter. Also STR builds are MAD as hell.

[tytalan]

Here my thoughts for the psychic. Drop the spell slots entirely bump the amp focus cantrips and give them more Focus spells and cantrips. Make the class a pure focus caster this will remove all the comparisons with the Bard and give them their own feel. I would also give them a ability to get an extra focus point. The focus dynamic gives the Psychic a interesting feel making It distant like the Thaumaturge.

[Rysky]

That would carve off a lot of utility for little gain in my view

[TheGentlemanDM]

They'd be very weak, and quite shallow to play as well compared to other casters.

[Golurkcanfly]

Relegating it to a Focus-Only Caster would just make it a Kineticist, which would be a perfect space for the Cantrip + Amp design.