Psychopomp, Shoki

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Sanityfaerie wrote:

Among the multiple reasons why this isn't true:

- You have a free hand, something quite rare among martials, who are the one the most in need of healing.
In general, swashbucklers, monks, rogues, some maguses, and a smattering of maneuver builds from other classes will have a free hand, as will anyone bow-primary, and anyone who expects to be using healer's tools. That's rather better than "quite rare". That said, yes. That's why I said "for the most part".

Monks. The only class I've seen healing with my Elixirs. All the other ones need their hand to stay free, so the Elixir is in the pocket and stay there. What you need is not just a free hand, it's a free hand that carries an Elixir. If you have to draw it, you won't do it as it means having a single action left to act.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Valet is only barely an action economy enhancer.

25% less actions to use an Elixir, that's a nice action enhancer. Also, as a Chirurgeon you can start the fight with Elixirs at hand. At least, that's what my Chirurgeon does.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
In order to meaningfully make use of it, you need to start your turn immediately adjacent to your target

That's the whole point of the discussion: With the Choker-Arm Mutagen, you should be able to stay in a central position and have all the party in your reach.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
That's not good strategy. Feeding potions to someone is pretty much inherently an act of spending your own actions so that they don't have to.

Not a good strategy?

The Fighter is in need of healing, do you heal with the Alchemist and attack with the Fighter or heal with the Fighter and attack with the Alchemist?

If the Fighter is specialized in damage and not the Alchemist, then the answer should be obvious. It doesn't mean that the Alchemist actions are worth less than the Fighter's, it's just that the specialized character does what it's good at while the non specialized character supports.

But once out of combat, the Fighter becomes the support and the Alchemist the one acting. It doesn't mean that the Fighter actions are not worth as much as the Alchemist actions, just that it's now the time for the Alchemist to be the one acting.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
These are arguments for why it should be okay that the alchemist's actions are worth less than everyone else's. They're not counterarguments to my initial statements.

I don't say you're totally wrong. Just that there are many factors and not just action efficiency.

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:
I can understand that reasoning. But, I find it overly simplistic and/or short sighted. Damage rarely happens in the amounts that the heal spell heals. Therefore, a majority of the time, there is over healing (debatably a wasted spell) or you wait for more damage (which runs the risk of a character going unconscious).

The whole self-fulfilling prophecy of the Cleric:

- The Cleric uses low level spells (or Spirit Link) to heal someone who will not go down outside some extremely lucky streak.
- Because of that it doesn't contribute meaningfully to the fight. As the party is 3 instead of 4 the fight becomes really tough (from Moderate to Severe or from Severe to Extreme). Very quickly damage starts to add up.
- The Cleric can now say that the healing it did at the beginning of the fight was super important considering how the fight was hard. He now looks like a hero despite being the one dragging the party down.


Yes, that's why I limited the list to passive reach. Both because active reach has too many ways to be increased. But also because active reach and range are not much different: It's the distance you can affect with a specific action/activity.

On the other side, passive Reach is important because it means you can use all effects (or most of them) in your Reach. The most important ones being Reactions like AoOs as your Reach then becomes a zone of control, which is important to martials.


Good one, and can be combined with everything so I have to add tons of lines...
I hope I haven't forgotten any. It becomes a bit unreadable in fact...


I was just putting a few numbers on an Excel sheet and realized it could be useful to everyone.
So here's a compilation of all the ways to increase your (passive) Reach.

I've included the sneak peeks from Treasure Vault.
I obviously have forgotten some ways to increase it, so don't hesitate to tell me and I'll add them.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
If you're making those elixirs at the beginning of the day, I think it makes all sorts of sense to hand at least a few of them out at the beginning of the day as well, and then keep redistributing as people use them so that everyone always has one.

Obviously. Potions/Elixirs happen to be useful to everyone from time to time.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
For the most part, though, if you're feeding someone an elixir rather than having them use the one at their belt, you're effectively saying that their actions are worth more than yours are.

Among the multiple reasons why this isn't true:

- You have a free hand, something quite rare among martials, who are the one the most in need of healing.
- You have action economy enhancers (like Valet and now this new Mutagen) to alleviate the cost.
- You are quite tough (and now can have a big reach), so even if casters also have free hands they may not want to go to the frontline to heal the martials.
- The martial drinking the Elixir provokes an AoO, you may be in a position not to.
- Your routine allows you to do so. Casters for example need 2 actions to cast a spell so they can only heal themselves or someone next to them without losing their entire round.
- The Alchemist is the best class at prebuffing, between poison and now the Spiderthingy Collar. So a part of your efficiency doesn't come directly from your actions.
- You have good out of combat utility, and the game being balanced it means you have lower in combat utility.
- It's your role. So if your actions are worth as much as the Fighter's, it's normal for you to be the one providing the healing.
- And also: You don't have to heal. If you're in a situation where your actions are worth more than the Fighter's, you can just do what you have to do. It's an option, a strong one, but still an option.

Leo wrote:
The prebuffing is the point. It is a prebuff life boost with a minor catch.

I 100% agree. If you can prebuff then why not. But if you can't prebuff I'd prefer to spend my actions and my spell slot for a Heal that will instantly heal twice more than what Spirit Link will heal during the whole fight and won't cost any of my own hit points.


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Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:
I am curious what you dislike about Spirit Link.

It costs 2 actions, a spell slot and your hit points for an effect equivalent to Life Boost. And even if Life Boost is definitely one of the best focus spell in the game, Spirit Link is so far behind I can't consider it.

The only advantage is that you can prebuff with it, but on a prepared caster it's too random to prepare one.

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:
I can understand the doubt, but, having used the build several times, I can attest to its efficacy.

But you used it with a Witch, not with a Cleric? With a Cleric, getting the 14 in Intelligence is very expensive.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
I don't think it undermines my conclusions entirely, but I won't pretend that it's not a meaningful counterargument.

Definitely not. I also decided that you were right with the Cleric being better at healing. I've revised my position (I was a bit too enthusiastic, I got carried away).

graystone wrote:
Nothing prevent you making an elixir and someone else drinking it [ie, the target spends the action to drink it].

It costs one action from you, 2 from your ally, you both need a free hand, and that's for a single Elixir considering that you produce 2 of them at that stage. It's not clunky anymore, it's plain unusable.


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
But the Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs (of Life, mostly).
I'll agree to disagree. I never saw feeding as an intended requirement.

Feeding Elixirs to allies during combat is definitely a base of the Chirurgeon. To avoid it you'll have to forget about some class abilities, at least the Greater Field Discovery. And also all the Elixir of Life-based feats, like Merciful Elixir or Combine Elixirs.

Now, you play your character the way you want. On that I agree.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
If you had a literal servitor race (construct or otherwise), created by some ancient archmage to desire to serve a master, it could easily be the sort of thing that got passed down.

Culture gets passed down as much as nature. I still don't see why you want to say it's fundamental instead of just stating it's cultural. From your words it looks like culture is something you can get rid of in a minute. It's very far from it.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
It's really not - because you can retrain yourself out of a culture, and others can reject their culture, and if it's a culture, there are ways to *not* pass it on to your kids. A culture is something that is inside of your and shapes you, but it's not fundamental and inherent. Its more like the Summoner of the person possessed by evil spirits, but those are one-offs.

It's what you described. I maintain that this story is one of culture, not nature.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
What I'm describing is someone who is fundamentally evil, but not absolutely so.

So they are evil and will go back to evil deeds at some point because they can't retrain out of evil. Their children will be evil no matter what. But they will still try to act as if good. It looks like a sisyphean quest. Also, it's very easy to solve it: Magic. It's actually the only way to fix it. And I still consider that it's a worse story than the one where they have to fight themselves.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
Beyond that, you're making the assertion that there aren't any meaningful bio-driven differences between people who are entirely different species, some of whom lack biology. You're looking at a person who's actually a nature spirit inhabiting a plant, and a person who's actually a direct descendant of the fae, and a person who's a stuffed animal, brought to life by the heartfelt wishes of a child, and you're saying that the only difference in their mentality is in how they were raised.

Well, their experience is obviously very different from the normal human and as such their mentality will be. Is there a need to go beyond that? To say that the descendant of the fae is like that because biology instead of experience? I don't think the stories will be better, I even think they will be worse as biology can't be offset and as such reduce choice.


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
In my opinion, without this rule, you just can't play a Chirurgeon. The whole Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs.
I never really saw it that way, as it's fairly untenable without some hoop jumping: needing 3 feats and 4th level to really start seems bad to me. At the same feats and 4th level I can toss healing bombs from a distance and battle medicine up close [and use doctor's visitation].

It was not easily possible in the past, I agree. But the Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs (of Life, mostly). If you don't, then other Research Fields should end up more appropriate.


Demonknight wrote:

Per pure RAW it is impossible but usually you can allowed since RAI if a creature is grabbing you it is in your reach, you can attack the limb is using for example. It even says it in the rules:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=445

That's it, thanks. I was pretty sure there was something somewhere about attacking limbs but was unable to find it.


I want to try this out, so I'll create one for PFS. I certainly won't reach high levels, but I think it should work fine, still.
I'll go for:

Doktor Krankenweg
Razortooth Goblin Chirurgeon
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Wis 10 Int 16 Cha 10

Feats:
1: Alchemical Familiar, Fang Sharpener
2: Fighter Dedication
3: Heavy Armor Proficiency
4: Opportunist
5: Goblin Scuttle
6: Fighter Resiliency or Power Attack
7: Fleet
8: Sentinel Dedication, retrain Heavy Armor Proficiency for Toughness
9: Skittering Scuttle

Equipment: Poisoned Guisarme, Full Plate.

So I'll control a massive area with my 15ft. of reach and AoO. I'll drop my Guisarme when I need to heal. And thanks to the Full Plate, I should be fine taking hits. Outside healing, I'll use my Alchemical Items mostly on Poison (both for me and my allies) and a little bit of versatility with Reagents for Quick Alchemy.
I think it should work fine. My fighting efficiency will drop at higher level but my healing one should increase greatly. There's just the issue of level 7-11 where my Proficiency with the Guisarme will be bad. I may use a Horsechopper during these levels.


graystone wrote:
I tend to archetype in a different way, like a caster: Psychic can give you access to a nice cantrip you can boost with focus for an a will and some burst damage: the fact that you can poach the feat that allows innate cantrips to work off of int is just frosting on the cake IMO.

One strength of this build (compared to other Alchemist's builds) is that besides the Familiar at level 1 and Merciful Elixirs at high level, there's nothing you really need to get your character working. So you can tailor it the way you like.

graystone wrote:
I'm iffy on the combat force drinking so I'd most likely pass them out and people could drink them before moving into combat when possible. I'd lean into battle medicine for in combat healing myself.

In my opinion, without this rule, you just can't play a Chirurgeon. The whole Research Field is based on feeding allies with Elixirs.

graystone wrote:
Really depends on the DM and the module/game you're playing.

Obviously. But DMs rarely create monsters, so the only case where AoOs will be a problem is if the enemies try to shut you down with them by moving next to you. Normally, you should rarely put yourself in harm's way.

graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
You have the Spiderthing Collar to get it for free at the beginning of an encounter. And at level 11, it lasts 1 hour.
1/2 an hour with the collar [cuts the duration in 1/2].

It's an or for me. Either you use it for an hour or you use the Collar and then you don't care of the duration because it's higher than a fight.


I can't find anything allowing a Grabbed creature to Strike at whatever is grabbing it. Have I missed it or is it impossible per RAW to Strike at the creature which is grabbing you if it's out of your reach?


graystone wrote:
That's spending feats on the familiar then spending enough to get a mount that has it's own action and can stay alive... Doable, but it's sucking up the feats.

The Familiar is a no brainer as, unless you go Bomber, it's the only interesting first level feat.

And then, before level 10, there's no interesting feat to take. So the Mount can be raised quite well. Also, ACs are interesting at low level for the Alchemist as it gives you an at-will ability that deals quite some damage.

graystone wrote:
I saw them as more a way to pass out pre-buffs before the fight than in combat items: this is especially true if you they are Perpetual Infusions.

As they last 1 minute, I won't count too much on prebuff, but if it happens it's just awesome.

You unfortunately can't take the Numbing Tonic as a Perpetual Infusion. And the Soothing one is not really strong, especially as a Perpetual Infusion. And it's only available at level 11+.
The Numbing Tonic is quite awesome and in my opinion is worth giving during combat. It gives one third of the hit points of an equivalent leveled Elixir of Life. And as it gives hit points immediately and at the beginning of the ally turn, it means that with a bit of initiative luck you can get the equivalent of an Elixir of Life in 2 rounds. So you don't even need a long fight to get the most out of it.

graystone wrote:
10' isn't bad but huge creatures can reach 15' so if you go in to heal someone in melee [without a reach weapon] you can get an attack.

If the enemy has 15ft. reach, you can use the diagonals to get at 20ft. from it (as in diagonal 10ft. reach is equivalent to 15ft.).

Also, before level 11, a 15ft. monster with AoO is pretty rare. And you also have to remember that with such reach, your allies are triggering AoOs for you. In my opinion, you should not be bothered by AoOs before very high level.

YuriP wrote:

Whats the duration of Choker-arm mutagen? 1 minute?

Depending from it duration it also can be an action economy tax during encounters.

You have the Spiderthing Collar to get it for free at the beginning of an encounter. And at level 11, it lasts 1 hour.


graystone wrote:
it requires a target needing enough hp heal to need 2 elixirs

With the Tonics, you have more freedom on what you can deliver.

graystone wrote:
Now if you go full on healer and start every fight with a choker-arm mutagen high enough to give you enough reach to multiple people and/or keep your familiar out of danger, I could see it become a solid option but that's a higher level combo IMO.

It's definitely the idea.

Even at low level, 10ft. reach is quite interesting, though. It puts you away from danger (as you need to reach your allies, so you are 15-20ft. away from enemies) and it should be easy to have multiple allies under your reach.


shroudb wrote:
pfs vs homebrew/ap

Honestly, I've seen everything in both PFS, AP and homebrew. That's why I avoid broad conclusions on how the game plays at different tables.

Still, there are differences in challenges and length of adventuring days. But overall I've found Alchemist to be a good class for PFS (mostly because of the small adventuring days).

shroudb wrote:
for the new tonics, i think that both the temp hp one (even though it's not healing) and the fast healing one should be great as a padding for a longer fight. Now, not all fights are long, but usually there is at least 1 per day that somehow ends up being longer, which is why i put enough of those in to cover like 1-2 fights, and they should be quite a boon.

At low level, I agree. But at level 15+, I've found fights to be more often long than short. Anyway, I need to test it (or see it) to know.

shroudb wrote:
grabbing the new skunk bomb is actually quite strong

I agree, it's another idea. I'd add Directed Splash, too, to avoid hitting my allies.

shroudb wrote:
if you are going strength, and are relying on the reach mutagen, then i think it's a must to invest in Athletics since it can allow reach trips and grabs to try to be more of a controller when you dont need to heal.

Good idea, I hadn't thought about it. Reach Grapple is always funny.

shroudb wrote:
having an extra -1 to attacks, on top of the lower ttack of the alchemist, i dont think it's worth it to go for the AoO route.

Without bonuses, you'll deal 40% (30% at high level) of the damage of a Greatsword Fighter attack. It's definitely low, but considering your massive reach, you should trigger it far more often than the Fighter (easily twice more in my opinion, especially because you deal low damage and as such enemies will quickly ignore it). And because you lack competing reactions, I think it's still quite a good feat.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
which means that we can't actually explore what a stupid people culture would even look like.

Why? You can just create a culture that doesn't value intelligence and as such people born in that culture tend to be stupid with the result of the culture being one of stupid people after some time.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
having a group that was born to serve

Same here. You can play a halfling from Cheliax and you are born to serve. It's something Paizo doesn't want to speak about too much but it exists in universe.

If now you speak of being born to serve by nature, unless you speak of a mindless being, I have hard time figuring out what would be the genetic of servitude (and it feels creepy and maybe that's a subject the game should avoid).

Sanityfaerie wrote:
The second difference is that cultures are a lot more malleable and flexible. A person's culture can change. It's not easy, but it's possible to cast aside whatever it was that your parents raised you with and take on a new culture and pretty much make it stick. A classic example here is tendencies towards evil. If your people are generally evil because they are culturally evil, then you can overcome that. You can choose to reject that, and reforge yourself and no longer be that way. You can go back home and possibly reform chunks of the culture you come from so that they are also not evil, if you have enough influence. If you are fundamentally evil to some degree, then you're in a much harder position. You can reject it, and reform yourself, but at some level, there will be some part of you that is continually trying to draw you back, no matter what you do. It will be a constant struggle, and if you somehow do reform some of your people, it will be a constant struggle for them as well. If you have children (if you are capable of having children) then they, too, will be drawn towards evil, no matter how you raise them. If you wish to have children, and want them to not be evil, you will have to give them tools to fight that, and know that you might fail. You might also make compromises with the demon within. Some part of you calls out to be "evil", but what does that mean? You don't want to be evil, but are the evil that your blood calls for and the evil that you personally reject exactly the same? Perhaps instead of fighting a forever war against that part of your nature, you can shape it into a somewhat less objectionable form - one that still might leave you "evil", but that would let you get along with the people you want to get along with, and avoid the aspects you wish to avoid. Those kinds of stories are very different and the results much less sympathetic when the thing that you're fighting against is something like "I just really like hurting people and was raised with strange ideas" rather than "I am literally the spawn of devils".

I think we have a vastly different vision of being "fundamentally evil". If you are fundamentally evil, you can't be redeemed, your children will be evil no matter what and you don't even try to become good as it would be both doomed to fail and preposterous to you as you can't conceive good. That's why you can kill Demons and Devils on sight, because there's no way such a story can exist.

What you are describing is a story of cultural evil. Like, you are an orc from Belkzen, raised in a society valuing strength and violence. But as you now open yourself to the world you realize how bad your manners are. So you start by the obvious: stop shouting at people and bashing them when you disagree with them. But it's hard, especially because in times of frustration, anger or fear your old manners get back to the surface, like when you face this clerk who doesn't want to sign your papers for the 4th time because there's still something wrong and you just want to grab him by the collar and explain him how you think but you... must... not.
It can be also seen as a story of dual personality: Like a Summoner bound to an evil Eidolon and the Eidolon tries to push evil thoughts into the Summoner mind and the Summoner must resist. Or someone possessed by evil spirits who tries to keep its life straight.

Sanityfaerie wrote:
You can go around the world and find an entirely different group of dwarves that hasn't been in contact for thousands of years, and you'll still find blunt straightforwardness, because it arises naturally from something that's true of them as ta structural level. They may not share a language, or know anything about one another, but neither group is going to be inclined to lie, because it doesn't work. You can see another group of dwarves, and even if you know nothing else about them, you can guess that much, and be highly likely to be correct.

Dwarves are all connected to the same original culture, if I'm not making a mistake. So you can just choose that this culture was one of bluntness and lack of lies and all the dwarves in the world will share this common background. Unlike biology, there are more chances for an isolated group of dwarf to build a completely new culture, but still chances are high that they will be blunt and honest.

As a side note, the story of dwarves building an entire new culture is one you can't tell with bioessentialism as all dwarven cultures will ultimately end up blunt and honest.

I personally feel there's no story you can tell with bioessentialism that you can't tell without it. Bioessentialism basically limits the stories and simplifies them. Instead of finding a justification for an orc to be evil, it is evil by nature. Instead of understanding why dwarves are blunt, they are blunt by nature. And stories of dwarves not being blunt need the intervention of magic or some suspension of disbelief.


Thinking more about it, I think I'll agree that the Cleric is still ahead, mostly because it's easier to use and obviously because it kicks in earlier. But I don't think the difference is that big that you make it look, SanityFaerie. First because level 15 Elixirs of Life heal 8d6+21 (but still the Elixir of Life progression is buggy so there are moments where it's behind anyway). Also because, from my experience, 3-action Heals are not really interesting in terms of healing output. You need at least 3 allies to be hurt for it to outheal 2-action Heal, and even when you take AoE damaging effects you have some characters who will critically succeed to the save and take nothing (especially once Evasion and such kick in).
2 Elixirs heal 98, the 2-action Heal 111. So they are not far behind. And the feats like Communal Healing are very far from outstanding. The amount is small and not on the same target.
Another asset of the Alchemist is that it can start healing earlier (with the Tonics) and can heal just what is needed as Elixirs heal twice less. I don't know how it goes in actual combat situation, as it's a type of healing I haven't tested. But my high level experience showed me that combats get longer and that characters take a few rounds to get downed. So it may be a very valid way of healing an entire party at high level, it may...

Also, I just looked at how much damage Electric Arc does at that level compared to a basic 1d8 attack (Goblin jaws, for example) with Choker-Arm Elixir penalties and the Jaws deal more damage. I'd personally try to grab Attack of Opportunity or Stand Still, as it's just a few feats, for the Alchemist to end up with an ok damaging ability, an ok Reaction and something to do when not healing. Also, Strength as secondary ability is quite nice as you start with Medium Armor and can easily grab Heavy one through a General feat and then Sentinel at some point.

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

I like the chirurgeon. But I personally don't see it winning out against the best healing build I've seen (Cleric w/ witch dedication for Life Boost). The heal-over-time options (Life Boost, Spirit Link) allow the cleric to heal while doing plenty of other things during combat. With a staff of healing and some scrolls they are able to deal with almost anything that is necessary to deal with. Also, Life Boost plus medicine checks work fine for ooc healing.

At level 15, SL+LB heals 32 HP per round without any follow up actions from the cleric.

I'm sorry Leo, but that's just wrong. First, Witch Dedication asks for Intelligence, so it's actually an asset for the Alchemist who can easily grab it. Second, Spirit Link is just plain bad and there's no way I'll put that on my higher level spell slots.

It's a nice combo on paper, but it doesn't leave the paper.

shroudb wrote:
That said, I think you say that most of your experience is with pfs, which is in actuality far different than my experience which is either homebrew or paths. The two have vastly different adventure day lengths. So that might be the reason for the difference in our perspectives.

It's definitely true that the Alchemist efficiency differs greatly depending on the length of adventuring days. But at level 15, it's no more supposed to be an issue. As shown by the calculation above, the Alchemist has the same daily healing output than the Cleric, so its ability to last should be fine.

About the number of Quick Alchemy per day, I think it's a matter of trial and error. My experience is that you need very few of them to cover the "exceptional cases", because, well, they are exceptional. I also tend to have a few Alchemical Items on my Alchemist, for common situations (like Cat's Eye Elixir, Bloodhound Mask, etc...) so I use Quick Alchemy for extremely unlikely situations where I need something I was not expecting to use, ever. That may also explain our difference of experience.


shroudb wrote:

A theoretical reagent allocation for a 15th level alchemist would look (imo) something like:

12 elixirs (4 reagents)
3 of the new fast healing (1 reagent)
4 of the temp hp new one (2 reagent)
4 mutagens for reach (2 reagents)
7 open reagents for condition/burst (7 reagents)
That leaves only 4 for party...

I'd change a few things.

First, as you have a Familiar with Valet, you can take Extra Reagents for one more reagent.
Then, I'd take Battle Medicine into account. First, because the Chirurgeon has free Medicine proficiency. Second because you can benefit from your extended reach for Battle Medicine. Third because you heal at touch range so you won't need to move to use Battle Medicine. So even if the Cleric can also take it, at these levels it should nearly never do it when the Chirurgeon will use it always.
And finally, I'd really cut on the 7 open reagents. You only need them for emergency healing and condition removal. 4 should be enough.
As you give a lot of healing to your Cleric, I'd use 6 reagents for Elixirs of Life.
It leaves the Alchemist with 12 Alchemical Items for combat purposes.

Also, I don't see the point of that many Restorations. You can't use it in combat and your Staff of Healing should provide a few for you. In my opinion you can forget about them.
It leaves the Cleric with a level 12 spell list.

The Cleric can remove:
In combat: Paralyzed.
Outside combat: Clumsy, Enfeebled, Stupefied, Disease, Curse, Drained, Doomed.
After resting: Petrified.
The Alchemist can remove:
In combat: Fear, Paralyzed, Blinded, Deafened, Sickened, Slowed, Poison, Disease.

In terms of emergency healing:
Cleric: Healer's Blessing + Heal 8 + Staff of Healing = 127 healing.
Alchemist: Quick Alchemy + Double Elixir of Life = 138 healing.

In terms of normal healing:
Cleric: Heal 8 + Staff of Healing = 108 healing.
Alchemist: Valet + Double Elixir of Life = 98 healing.

The temp hp and fast healing elixirs can help for normal healing. Healer's Blessing will also happen. AoE healing is clearly the Cleric shtick.

Total healing (roughly):
Cleric: 7 Heal 8 + 3 Heal 7 for the Cleric = 1157.5 healing.
Alchemist: 4 Battle Medicine + 18 Elixirs of Life + 2 Quick Alchemy Elixirs of Life + 4 temp hp (3 rounds) and 3 fast healing (3 rounds) = 1401 healing.
It's also interesting to note that you can start some fights under Fast Healing 3 as it's the second Perpetual Item I'd take alongside the Disease/Poison remover.

Well, honestly, I have hard time deciding which one is in a better position. The Cleric spell list is more attractive than the 12 Alchemical Items. The Alchemist is better at removing conditions, mostly because the Cleric can only remove them outside combat. In terms of healing it's... complicated as it will depends on fights. Maybe a slight advantage to the Cleric due to AoE healing.

To really give a final point of view, I'd need to see if the extra reach really solves the Elixir of Life issue and if the Numbing and Soothing Tonics are easy to deliver.


Ok, I see your point, but I still disagree, especially because of that:

shroudb wrote:
So, your prepared healing and utility using Advanced is counterbalanced by Clerics spell slot healing and utility.

But Cleric's spell slots don't cover healing and utility much.

First, outside your highest spell levels, you'll get disappointing healing out of your spell slots. So most of your healing will come from your Font. The Alchemist can just use 5 reagents for 15 Elixirs of Life (which is roughly equivalent to 6 maxed out Heals once you're in the 2-digit levels) to get the same amount of healing than whatever the Cleric can expect from both its Font and its spell slots.
For Condition Removal (I assume it's what you meant by "utility"), the Cleric is in the same boat. Because a lot of Condition Removal spells ask for a Counteract check, you need to use your highest level spell slots to cover them.

So I don't see the Cleric spell list helping a lot in the healing/condition removal department.
On the other hand, Advanced Alchemy will cover all non burst healing for the Alchemist and can cover condition removal as well (even if, like the Cleric, it's better to use Quick Alchemy for these). Then you have Quick Alchemy for mostly Condition Removal and the rare cases you need burst healing (even if with Merciful Elixir you can do both simultaneously sometimes).

I also would like to add, even if it's a bit outside the debate, that if the Cleric uses its highest level spell slots for healing, it is left with nearly nothing if it doesn't want to heal. The Alchemist, on the other hand, just needs a bit of Advanced Alchemy left on the side for Bombs (for examples).


shroudb wrote:
I mean... Most of your list is based on an "errata pending" that we don't know if we'll ever get.

No, only 2 items. Overall, my list is accurate.

shroudb wrote:
Using perpetuals to remove conditions doesn't actually work as it is currently since even a nat20 on the roll fails to remove level appropriate stuff.

Not for Disease and Poison where the item uses your DC and level whatever the level of the item. Its just for Sinew-Shock Serum and Focus Cathartic that I hope there'll be an errata.

shroudb wrote:
Assuming that at high enough level you have like 6-7 open reagents, if you calculate that those are simultaneously your burst healing and your condition removals, you are no much different than the 5ish font Heals that cleric has.

Not really. The Cleric Font is its base healing (the Cleric doesn't have burst healing). The Alchemist base healing is based on Advanced Alchemy. So the Cleric is sharing its base healing and its condition removal when the Alchemist is sharing its burst healing and its condition removal. The Alchemist is in a way better situation.

shroudb wrote:
Going even deeper, into feat expenditure, his 1 vs your 2 for the same thing, and since he can use a lowly 2nd level spell to deal with any status penalty, he can more easily grab stuff like Blessed one and its continuation to assist him in that front.

It starts to be complicated if you add Archetypes into the mix. I mean, the Chirurgeon is a good candidate to take the Medic Archetype due to its heavy focus on Medicine and extreme reach with Choker-Arm Mutagen. So I'm not sure Blessed One will give you much more than what the Alchemist can get. But more importantly, it's not really part of the class itself.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
I think there are really interesting stories to tell about pulling together groups of people who really are significantly different at a fundamental level (and not just a cultural one).

Interesting point.

I wonder if we can tell the difference between fundamental level and cultural one. Like, we can say that Demons are composed of evil and as such they behave badly or we can say that Demon's culture push them toward evil and as such they behave badly. How do you tell the difference from the outside?

So, here's my question: What's the actual difference between the fundamental level and the cultural one when you play a character?
What interesting stories you can't tell when you consider that everything is cultural and nothing is fundamental?


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graystone wrote:
2 of those don't happen with the weapon in question.

Quote the line where it says you don't need an arrow in your hand to shoot the Ballista.

If the Ballista was a one-handed weapon, they would have used the "1" number of hands. If they put the "1+" number of hands I think we can see the intent. And the intent is the same than the bow: You can't shoot it with only one hand.
Now, you can say that because there's one sentence not working with the Ballista you can come up with whatever rule you want, but I don't expect any GM to follow you in this rabbit hole.


shroudb wrote:
at most he is elevated to the power level of the rest of the healers, each one with his own strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah, I quite agree. I need to see it in action to really know if it's worse, equivalent or better.

Still, about status removal, I'm not sure the Cleric is that better. If I make a list of each Conditions comparing Cleric and Chirurgeon:

Curse:
- Chirurgeon: Nothing.
- Cleric: Remove Curse and Channeled Succor.
Petrification:
- Chirurgeon: Nothing.
- Cleric: Stone to Flesh.
Disease:
- Chirurgeon: Quick Alchemy for a check every hour. Perpetuals at level 11.
- Cleric: Remove Disease after a long rest, Channeled Succor at level 8+.
Poison:
- Chirurgeon: Quick Alchemy for a check every hour. Perpetuals at level 11.
- Cleric: Remove Poison.
Persistent damage:
- Chirurgeon: Depending on the persistent damage type, there are a few Elixirs and Mutagens you can use.
- Cleric: Resist Energy is your best bet.
Frightened:
- Chirurgeon: Merciful Elixir at level 10 with Quick Alchemy.
- Cleric: Remove Fear.
Paralyzed:
- Chirurgeon: Merciful Elixir at level 10 with Quick Alchemy.
- Cleric: Remove Paralysis then Channeled Succor at level 8.
Clumsy/Enfeebled:
- Chirurgeon: Sinew-Shock Serum with Quick Alchemy. As it's a Healing Elixir, I very much await for an errata allowing the Chirurgeon to use its level and DC to the check, but it's not there.
- Cleric: Restoration.
Stupefied:
- Chirurgeon: Focus Cathartic with Quick Alchemy. As it's a Healing Elixir, I very much await for an errata allowing the Chirurgeon to use its level and DC to the check, but it's not there.
- Cleric: Restoration.
Drained and Doomed:
- Chirurgeon: Nothing.
- Cleric: Restoration.
Blinded/Deafened:
- Chirurgeon: Greater Merciful Elixir at 14.
- Cleric: Restore Senses.
Sickened:
- Chirurgeon: Greater Merciful Elixir at 14.
- Cleric: Nothing.
Slowed:
- Chirurgeon: Greater Merciful Elixir at 14.
- Cleric: Nothing (but you say you found something so I may have missed it).
Grabbed/Restrained:
- Chirurgeon: Nothing.
- Cleric: Freedom of Movement.
Transmutation (Baleful Polymorph):
- Chirurgeon: There's an Elixir, but I don't remember its name.
- Cleric: Nothing.
Fatigued:
- Chirurgeon: There's an Elixir, but I don't remember its name.
- Cleric: Soothing Spring and one hour to wait.

To all of that, Miracle has to be added, but as a level 10 spell I don't think it's really important. And of course Dispel Magic that may remove Conditions indirectly. And the Cleric can get a few spells outside Divine spell list (Haste fights Slowed for example).

Overall, it's very close. The main issue of the Cleric is that it needs a spell prepared for most situations (outside Channeled Succor, which is still eating its Font, and Restoration which is on every Staves of Healing). The Alchemist just needs to use Quick Alchemy. So it will really depend on external factors: The party and the campaign. In my opinion, the Alchemist is still ahead as it can immediately handle nearly all situations when the Cleric needs to know beforehand what it will face to react to it.


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I think Medic Archetype is more obvious. I actually realize I forgot to speak about it. Besides the weak Dedication as you don't use Medicine at all, Doctor's Visitation allows you to move and Battle Medicine. Then you can administer your Elixirs with your remaining actions.


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:
So we're good here since dwarves and elves aren't human and the first link you have (Wiktionary) tells you that bioessentialism is "The philosophy that biology plays a larger role in determining human psychology or development than social, economic, or environmental factors." ;)

Now that they can choose 2 ability boosts, are you so sure?


aobst128 wrote:
Yeah. Just cementing that the alchemical science subclass is the best one lol.

If you go for a Dex-based Investigator. I feel that the Strength-based one is very competitive and can choose whatever other subclasses they want.


Aobst considers the new Coffee Consummable.


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Temperans wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
nothinglord wrote:
Dwarves being slow and elves being fast is something that is an inherent difference between them, and unlike their ability scores is still completely impossible to overcome.

But luckily, move speed isn't linked to psychology and there's no class that is geared toward marathon. So it's no bioessentialism, it's just differences.

On the other hand, -2 in Charisma is strongly linked to psychology and has an impact on what class you should be or not be playing. Removing it is essential if you want to get rid of bioessentialism.

That's not how it works.

Bioessentialism doesn't care if its psychology or physiology, its all about the difference between species (in TTRPG) or races/gender (IRL) is based on biology and its bad because "that's [insert topic]-ist".

Heck they even changed the physical ability scores so you cannot say "its just the mental side of things".

The first link I have (Wiktionary) tells me that bioessentialism is "The philosophy that biology plays a larger role in determining human psychology or development than social, economic, or environmental factors."

What's your definition?


I must admit I don't find the Bottled Monstrosities to be really strong. The Ghost Ampoule, for example, is affecting everyone (allies included) in a very small area. It's worse than Fear 3. Still nice to have it when useful, but I don't find it can replace Bombs.


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nothinglord wrote:
Dwarves being slow and elves being fast is something that is an inherent difference between them, and unlike their ability scores is still completely impossible to overcome.

But luckily, move speed isn't linked to psychology and there's no class that is geared toward marathon. So it's no bioessentialism, it's just differences.

On the other hand, -2 in Charisma is strongly linked to psychology and has an impact on what class you should be or not be playing. Removing it is essential if you want to get rid of bioessentialism.


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Onkonk wrote:
I guess the big question is, what are you doing when not healing? Divine casters also have pretty nice offensive spells and at worst cantrips. It seems you would be somewhat limited since you need to spend resources on bombs that also go to healing.

Definitely the biggest question (and why I won't respect my PFS Chirurgeon to adopt this strategy).

You can use Numbing and Soothing Tonics before the party takes damage. It's "preventive" healing. You also have Mistform Elixir and some other nice Elixirs for specific situations (like Cat's Eye Elixir).
You can also turn into a bomber if needed (after all, you don't have to take the Mutagen if you feel that the fight will be one needing offensive abilities more than healing), but you'll have hard time getting many of their tax feats if you follow the "full healing" build I've given above.
You can attack with your mount, too.
You can grab Psychic Dedication for Amp Message, too (so others attack instead of you).

The last solution, and a little bit of an exploit, is to feed your AC or Familiar with an Energy Mutagen and command them to use the breath action. The rules allow it but I expect some GM to disagree.

YuriP wrote:
Unfortunately the creature sizes also "increases" with levels too.

Before level 11 you have 10ft. of reach. As you need to reach your companion it means that enemies need 15-20ft. of reach (depending on your positioning) to attack you. That's a lot.

At level 11, it gets to 15ft. Monsters need 20-25ft. That's still a lot.
At level 17, monsters need 25-30ft. of reach. As a side note, with such a reach, the Cleric is not in a better position.
And of course, monsters with such reach use their AoO against your companions, too. So I'm not sure you'll eat one that often.

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Going from the worst alchemist to the most beginner friendly :)

Even if I share your point of view, I'd still not call the Chirurgeon "beginner friendly". Someone still has to explain you how to use the Choker-Arm Mutagen. And if you want to get the most out of an Alchemist, you need to be able to use all the various tools at its disposal. So, it's still one of the hardest class to play in my opinion.


As shown above, with the brand new Choker-Arm Mutagen, the Alchemist doesn't have to be adjacent to its targets. Especially once level 11 when you start having a very big reach.
Being able to touch anyone at 15ft. seems very easy if you position yourself properly. I'm not even sure you need the mount at high level.


Thebazilly wrote:
I'm of the opinion that there should be a Final Fantasy Tactics style feat that lets you administer potions/elixirs by hucking them at your friends' heads. Item action economy is just kinda janky.

There is already one such feat: Healing Bombs.

And the Treasure Vault will bring some healing ammunitions for your guns.


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I've read mostly PFS adventures. There are often a few Recall Knowledge at the beginning of the adventure, like 2 or 3, with critical failures effect. Otherwise, you have to improvise a lot when it comes to RK checks, as players are always asking for weird things.
So, compared to all the RK checks done within the adventure, I experience a small quantity of them that are laid out in the adventure (around 10-20%).


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With the coming up release (and considering that no change will happen now), I see the Chirurgeon becoming maybe the best high level healer in the game. Here's how it competes with... well, the competition (mostly the Cleric).

Out of combat healing.
This one is easy. With Medicine going up as fast as Crafting and Perpetual Infusions giving you extra hit points per ten minutes at high level, the Chirurgeon is now the master of out of combat healing (past the very first levels where Rogues and Investigators can grab Continual Recovery earlier).

In combat healing.
2 Elixirs of Life have nearly the same healing output than a 2-action Heal of the highest spell level or second highest spell level (because of the weird progression of Elixirs of Life). But the Alchemist can produce so many Elixirs of Life that it outlives the Cleric easily. The issue with this form of healing has always been Action economy. With a Valet Familiar and a Mature Mount, you could move, draw 2 Elixirs of Life and administer them. But it was a bit clunky as you had to get very close to enemies (and risk Attacks of Opportunity) and because you had to move every time you wanted to heal a new PC.
Now, with the Choker-Arm Mutagen, you can get a bigger reach (10ft. early, 15+ at level 11+). You should have much more freedom in your positioning thanks to it. Still, because of the very weird mount rules, it's better to use a Medium Mount (and a Small Alchemist) than a Large one.
At very high level (13+) or if you decide to Combine Elixirs, the Alchemist has a bigger emergency healing output than the Cleric. But it greatly affects its sustainability so you can't use it too often.
Also, with Soothing Tonic and Numbing Tonic, you can give a nice regeneration to your allies. Unlike the Cleric you are not forced to wait for damage to happen to start healing.
Unfortunately, the Alchemist doesn't have neither the range of the Cleric (even if it gets close at level 17) nor its AoE healing.
Overall, I feel that the Alchemist is able to maintain a higher healing output for longer but with a few situations where it isn't ideal.

Status Removal.
Contagion Metabolizers allow you to easily get rid of Poison and Diseases (especially when you get them through Perpetual Infusions (11+) as you'll be able to do it for free every hour then).
Merciful Elixirs at 10 can counteract Fear and Paralyzed (once again, you can combine it with Perpetual Infusions for at will tries, even if you aim for a nat 20 on the counteract check). Greater Merciful Elixir add Blinded, Deafened, Sickened and Slowed.
The Alchemist can remove the Fatigued Condition for 30 minutes per day.
And Elixirs like Focus Cathartic and Sinew-Shock Serum can help also, even if their lack of efficiency limits greatly how much you can get out of them.
The Cleric can remove a broad range of effects, but for most of them you'll need to prepare it beforehand or wait for a long rest. Channeled Succor (8+) helps with 4 Conditions but costs your Font slots, so you are still quite limited in its use.
Overall, even if the Cleric can remove as many Conditions as the Alchemist, the need to prepare the spells beforehand strongly limits its efficiency when the Alchemist can use Quick Alchemy a few times per day to help with unexpected Conditions. Still, the Cleric can Remove Curse and Stone to Flesh, 2 very important conditions.

Pre buff.
When it comes to healing, there are a few prebuff options. The Cleric can cast Vital Beacon but it's far from awesome, the level 11+ Alchemist can put everyone under Soothing Tonic every 10 minutes which is very nice to use before opening a door.

Disclaimer: I certainly have missed a few things here and there, especially because I base this post on Nonat1s video. Don't hesitate to tell me then.

Conclusion: With the new items coming soon, it's now hard to dismiss the Chirurgeon as a healer. The very first levels are a bit hard (unfortunately as they are the ones asking for the most healing) but once at level 5 the Chirurgeon can be a strong primary healer, I even find it slightly better than the Cleric in pure healing.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
The tough part is for GMs. It's become part of my GM prep to note erroneous tidbits that I can give on a failed RK check.
This should be a standard note in any published module wherever Recal Knowledge checks appear.

One of the common use of Recall Knowledge is on monsters and there's no indication as to what you get on a failure.

And there are overall very few Recall Knowledge checks that are written in the adventures. You can't know beforehand what the players want knowledge on.


ottdmk wrote:
15) Choker-Arm Mutagen is different. Been talking about it on Discord... might be good for Spellcasters. Reach on Touch spells? Reach for Battle Medicine? That sort of thing.

I think it's meant for Chirurgeon. You now can deliver Elixirs at reach. Unfortunately, I find that before level 11 the reach gain is not big enough. But at higher level, you can stand in the middle of the party with a Valet Familiar and deliver 2 Elixirs/Mutagens per round. I'm not sure it's especially funny but at least it's a pure Chirurgeon gameplay.

I'm wondering how a Chirurgeon on a Large Mount with Choker-Arm Mutagen would work... One free move per round, 10+ft. reach on a Large creature, you can deliver Elixirs in a crazy area.


Red Griffyn wrote:
NVM - I see it in the bomber research field. I mean a one square bomb makes it far weaker IMO than splashing this nasty save effect out to many enemies.

Against bosses, Slow is incredible. But bosses are alone and surrounded by your teammates.

Also, before level 10 and higher splash radius, you'll rarely have many enemies in the splash. And it always feel bad to have an ally Sickened because of you.


I really dislike the Skunk Bombs. They are definitely more powerful than the other choices (but that's not the issue). The problem is that you need to use Quick Alchemy to get a decent DC. And it's really useful to limit the splash as you really don't want to hit your allies. So it's excellent for Bombers but not really good for the other Research Fields as it's hard to use properly for them.

It's the first time an Alchemical Item is mostly useful to only one Research Field. And on top of it it's maybe the best Bomb. That's why I really don't like them.


breithauptclan wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Perpetuals ask for 3 actions (1 for Quick Alchemy and 2 to attack), you can't use them with DaS unless you can use it as a free action (which doesn't happen really often).
Why does perpetual bombs require two actions to attack?

Quick Alchemy produces 2 Bombs (at level 9). If you only produce one you lose a lot of potential, ending up with a very subpar use of your actions. Considering that Bombs thrown by an Alchemist are close to martial secondary attacks, 2 actions for a single Bomb is really subpar.

Captain Morgan wrote:
I'm also working with the assumption you don't want to throw 3 bombs a turn. I know that's a bad idea at low levels but it still seems questionable at higher levels... But maybe a bomber has enough reagents to not care about that.

The question of reagents is a complex one. But still, you have other things to do than just throw Bombs: Use Elixirs or Mutagens, some skill actions (you are especially good at RK), etc... Playing an Alchemist like a martial (maximizing Strikes) won't give great results. You have a lot of excellent things to do in parallel to bombing.


Captain Morgan wrote:
That isn't the point. It doesn't matter if the alchemist is better with DaS than a martial. What matters is if an alchemist with Das is better than an alchemist without it.

Well, the verdict is the same. To illustrate it:

- If you roll a critical success to your DaS, you switch to a critical heavy bomb (Necrotic Bomb typically). But Alchemists rarely make critical successes on anything but nat 20.
- If you roll a success, you lost an action.
- If you roll a failure, then you can do something else. You have saved an alchemical item but you lost the splash damage. Unfortunately, an alchemical item is worth the splash damage: if you model the damage an Alchemist does with a fully feated Bomb and the same Alchemist just shooting with a bow, you'll see that the difference between the expected damage is just a few points of damage. So you have just gained 5 points of MAP (if you have another target it's useful, otherwise it's another action lost).
- If you roll a critical failure, you can do something else and you have saved an Alchemical Item and 5 points of MAP.

And the whole "If you score a failure you can make a Perpetual Bomb and throw it." doesn't work as you just wasted a round to deal 5 points of damage. Perpetuals ask for 3 actions (1 for Quick Alchemy and 2 to attack), you can't use them with DaS unless you can use it as a free action (which doesn't happen really often).

Overall, the combo doesn't work well. Because the Splash damage accounts for nearly half of Bomb damage, anything that allows you to reroll your attack is weak. The Alchemist has to use his actions a lot, not plan on using them.
So, unless you take the Investigator Dedication for something else and just grab DaS because it's cheap, I encourage you to find another more fitting Dedication.
Inventor for example works well. You can grab Legendary Crafting + Reverse Engineer (to use Crafting for traps) and then Clockwork Celerity to be Quickened one round per fight. That's, in my opinion, way more valuable.


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
I fail to see where you are heading. You are not answering my question with your examples as they are either based on numerical values or are too easy to need the use of the numerical value.
Then I do not understand what you're asking. what exactly do you mean by "numerical values"? Please give an example of what you mean. For instance, what numerical value is there in swim with a swim speed not needing a check?

My question is roughly:

Is there a situation that:
- Falls under a numerical value (from skills to saves to attributes).
- Is not impossible (lifting a cathedral).
- Nor impossible to fail (swimming in a calm lake when you have a Swim Speed).
and doesn't use any numerical value to determine the outcome?

Is it clearer?

Your examples were either using a numerical value (Constitution for Starvation) or so easy that there's only one outcome (swimming when you have a swim speed).


graystone wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Sorry, nothing in there guarantees that you are always allowed a Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigued condition.

Even if I fully agree that there are no guarantees in the rules there need to be a check, I fail to find situations where a numerical value isn't used at all when determining the effects of something that definitely falls under its perimeter (unless of course the numerical value is too low or high to have any impact on the effect, no need to roll a Strength check to lift a feather).

Maybe can you find some?

Sure, take swim and climb when you have a swim or climb speed: you are no longer required to roll for normal checks.

Starvation and Thirst
Source Core Rulebook pg. 500
"Typically characters eat and drink enough to survive comfortably. When they can't, they're fatigued until they do. Without water, after a number of days equal to a creature's Constitution modifier + 1, the creature takes 1d4 damage each hour that can't be healed until it quenches its thirst. After the same amount of time without food, it takes 1 damage each day that can't be healed until it eats."

Also Effects, Rulebook pg. 453
"Anything you do in the game has an effect. Many of these outcomes are easy to adjudicate during the game. If you tell the GM that you draw your sword, no check is needed, and the result is that your character is now holding a sword. Other times, the specific effect requires more detailed rules governing how your choice is resolved. Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters.

While a check might determine the overall impact or strength of an effect, a check is not always part of creating an effect. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a...

I fail to see where you are heading. You are not answering my question with your examples as they are either based on numerical values or are too easy to need the use of the numerical value.


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I've always used strict RAW on this one and as such allowed the "double Sneak Attack" with Magical Trickster.


I think you won't get much out of the combo.
First, if you realize that you'll miss, you'll just switch target like any weapon. As such, you reduce the advantage of damage on a miss.
Second, even if you can get the most out of Necrotic Bombs, truth is any weapon with Deadly or Fatal is a good one to use on a critical.

So, you don't really get anything better than any martial with Devise a Stratagem, and there's even a (small) negative interaction between both abilities.
And I don't speak of the crazy amount of tax feats the Alchemist asks for making the whole combo hard to come by without Free Archetype.


breithauptclan wrote:
Sorry, nothing in there guarantees that you are always allowed a Fortitude save to avoid the Fatigued condition.

Even if I fully agree that there are no guarantees in the rules there need to be a check, I fail to find situations where a numerical value isn't used at all when determining the effects of something that definitely falls under its perimeter (unless of course the numerical value is too low or high to have any impact on the effect, no need to roll a Strength check to lift a feather).

Maybe can you find some?

**

breithauptclan wrote:
Tao Long wrote:
I am playing a human with an undead eidolon in Pathfinder society and wanted to get some rules clerifications:
It would likely be best to take this to the Pathfinder Society forum. The general Rules forum community is heavily split on how Negative Healing works. PFS probably has an official ruling for it though.

I haven't heard of a specific PFS rules regarding Negative Healing (and as I play a Dhampir, I'm looking for such rules). So the rules forum seems the best place to speak about it.

Also, the OP question is more regarding the Summoner (and the way it handles being both healed and damaged by the same spell) than Negative Healing.

Speaking about it, it makes me realize that Shield Other on your own Eidolon may create a case where you only take half damage from everything hitting your Eidolon :D


I also think the Capybara would make a proper giant rat.

You can grab it through Cavalier (with GM permission) and in that case you can mount it right away.
You can grab it through Beastmaster and mount it at level 4 once it gets Mature.


Temperans wrote:
Same with Art.

Your RC example is nice, but the art example is one I'd be cautious to use. I don't want to get obliterated by a crowd of angry artists. The art industry is in a very weird spot right now and chances are high (because AIs are cheap and governments slow) that it will massively crumble to a fraction of what it is.

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