tytalan's page

I always find these post funny. Fix the wizard, fix the wizard, the wizard is no long OP fix the wizard.

I’ve played 3 remastered wizards and have yet to see anything broken about the Wizard. My staff wizard with school of battle magic rains down death and destruction with ease. I effectively have more slots to play with than any other caster that been played in our group (except cleric if you count the bonus heal/harm).

My Familiar school of mentalism is doing an awesome job of being our groups stealthy thief/spy in Edge Watch.

And finally I expect my spell blending school of Ars Grammatica who’s only second level look like he’s going to work out fine.

The problem isn’t really a matter of Wizards needing fixing it’s a matter that either the GM being lazy (adventure paths are notorious for this ) and only using single or dual creatures in combat encounters or lack of team work in the party.

There is at least one solid spell for every spell rank of school either at that rank or one that can be up casted to that rank. There’s a fallacy that the more limited school spell lists is a handicap, this is a fallacy because in almost every case with the older broader schools you ended up the same number of effective choices but a illusion of more.

No the Wizard doesn’t need fixing it has a higher learning curve than most of the other casters but it’s not broken.

So all the core books and call of the wild are getting sketch covers any chance we can get a rage of elements sketch cover to complete the remastered books in sketch covers. It would look so nice especially if you continue doing them for the none setting books

tytalan wrote:

In which case why bother with a play test? If they don’t need to fix the balance why are there so many problems with this classes balance

Are you actually unable to tell the difference between the two ideas?

The playtest is for the classes being created. It is to see how these new abilities are received by the community, which abilities are chosen consistently, which options are passed by, and if anything that is being created is able to be horribly abused.

That has nothing to do with whether one class is better than another. And it isn't influenced by having one set of cantrips add ability modifier to damage and another that doesn't.

It is certainly harder for us to back-seat developer the design team since we don't have all of the information about the Remaster that they do. But that is a far cry from the playtest being 'broken'.

Maybe you should read the playtest documentation

I think that there are a few problems with the spell casting that must be addressed. As it is right now they have every advantage of both a prepared caster and a spontaneous cast plus with their only disadvantage being the limited slots for each and set lists which the sorcerer already have.
10 level the apparition spell casting really starts breaking things up until than you have a prepared caster with a slight bonus of spontaneous casting balanced with the lower number of spells but the extra slot changes this giving them all the advantage of a prepared Devine caster with 1 less slot pre rank and a Sorcerer with half the slots and three times the signature spells four times at 12 level and most of these spells are from outside of the Devine list. That’s a insane amount of versatility and as new Apparitions get added in later books this is only going to get worse.

So here’s how I think you fix it.
1) don’t give the bonus spell slots at 10 level ( caveat if your doing this to all casters in remastered we found it’s acceptable but otherwise don’t)
2) make only the primary Apparition given spells Signatures spells this cuts some of the versatility.
3) spread out the Apparitions a little more give them the third one at 8 level and the fourth at 16 level
4) the feat that adds heal&harm to there Apparition spell list needs to be at a higher level say 4 or 6
5) let’s them only change their primary Apparition when refocusing

From the testing my group has done this goes a long way to bringing spellcasting in line.

tytalan wrote:

because one of the reasons for the playtest is to check class balance

If the designers wanted to check class balance using the playtest, they would have made that possible.

I don't think that the designers are so inept that they all forgot why they were designing the playtest.

In which case why bother with a play test? If they don’t need to fix the balance why are there so many problems with this classes balance

This MIGHT just sound patronizing but I don't mean for it to be, so if it comes off that way please forgive me, the solution to this is pretty simple.

All you need to do is just test the Animist and Exemplar in a party with Fighters, Bards, and Kinetecists since those are the only three Classes that we know won't see substantial changes or significant buffs in the Remaster due to just how potent they already are for Fighter and Bard and Kin being made in parallel with the Remaster.

No if that was the cast they wouldn’t want it played in groups for the playtest. Numbers are just as important because one of the reasons for the playtest is to check class balance which we can’t

This MIGHT just sound patronizing but I don't mean for it to be, so if it comes off that way please forgive me, the solution to this is pretty simple.

All you need to do is just test the Animist and Exemplar in a party with Fighters, Bards, and Kinetecists since those are the only three Classes that we know won't see substantial changes or significant buffs in the Remaster due to just how potent they already are for Fighter and Bard and Kin being made in parallel with the Remaster.

Actually we don’t know about changes to the bard in fact from what they’ve said all casters are getting some significant changes. So that not going to work either.

Now I’m not talking the Animist itself because there’s no way to actually accurately playtest the class. Why?
Well it’s actually simple it’s a remastered class and we don’t have the classes to compare it to. We’ve been told that casters are getting some cool changes but we don’t know what they are. Are all casters going to get extra spell slots at 10th level like the animist? Are spontaneous casters going to get extra signatures spells? Is the Wildshape focus spell going to be changed? Will Oracles have a feat they can take to add Heal/Harm to spell repertoire? There are simply nothing to compare this class to because to. Even once the players core one comes out we still will lack the information we need because there is only one spontaneous caster in that book and it’s the bard which is very different from other spontaneous casters because of its focus on focus spells.

Make sure to playtest this in at least a mock-adventure. Build both an Animist and an Oracle/Cleric/Sorcerer - being sure to optimize both of them to the best of your ability. Then run them through an adventuring day or two - even if it is just virtual by yourself and simply envisioning what the characters would be doing and what resources they would have and be spending on each of the encounters.

Whiteroom numbers comparisons don't tell the whole story.

I’ve done it. The animist wins hand down vs every other pure caster. Greater versatility than the any of them and as of second level after one feat a better heal/harm caster than the cleric. But there’s a giant hole in this playtest. We don’t have the remastered casters to compare to.

The whole spell package also has this really big divide going right through the middle of it.

Just counting spell slots doesn't show the whole picture.

Sure, at level 5 I have 9 off-tradition spell slot spells and 3 cantrips. None of which do I actually get to choose freely. That choice also affects which focus spells I have. And at higher levels, which Wandering feats I can choose. I also can't just go pick a spell that I like the look of - if it doesn't show up on an Apparition list, I don't get it.

And, maybe more importantly, I only have 1 slot per level to cast them with at level 5. I can't use Animist spell slots with those spells.

And then on the other side of that chasm, I have 2 cantrips and 2 slots per level of Divine spells. Having only 2 cantrips feels really limiting. It is a hard choice between Light, Guidance, Stabilize, Shield, Divine Lance/Needle Darts. Because I only get two of them.

-----

In comparison, Cleric gets several off-tradition spells that they also don't get to choose freely - some Deities give more than just three. They also get 5 cantrips and can spend a feat to get 2 more. And they get 3 slots per level, as well as Divine Font. Whole package comparison that is looking pretty good.

Oracle can get off-tradition spells that are a bit more freely chosen, but still limited. They get them 3 at a time, but can take the feat repeatedly. They also get 5 cantrips and 3 slots per level without a big divide through the middle of it.

But if you really want off-tradition poaching, take a look at Impossible Polymath. It is expensive and high level, but you can freely get any spells you want.

That divine gives them unbelievable versatility. You have two slots per rank that can be any Devine spell and two slots per rank that are none Devine spells that you get to choose from two lists at 1st level, 3 at fourth, and 4 at 12 plus you get to change those lists every day which no other spontaneous caster can. To make them even more versatile all these spontaneous spells are signature spells.

There may be a couple extra spells but the Repertoire is pre-determined and there's nothing to game breaking in there, *mostly.

Honestly when i saw the preview stream before the document my reaction was that the apparitions would be Tradition based not spell list based (having a predefined spell list feels like we're going backwards to 1E - same for the Wizard's new schools). So yeah i thought the class could basically be a full, L progression Caster ON-TOP of a M progression Martial. Having the ability to be mostly a Martial but pull out a Chain-Lightning / Lightning Storm / Fireball / Cone of Cold etc out of your.... book for that one encounter every 2 levels with 5+ enemies WOULD be game-breaking, but it's not that.

There's like a Fireball and a Phantasmal Calamity in there, and PC is pretty high level. WoAB has some other spicy stuff like True Target but the list is mostly fairly tame. Specially cantrip Wise. No TKP, no EA.

But yeah no haste, no slow, no maze, no heroism, no synesthesia.... having a few extra RP / Flavour slots is great, for the right table, but functionally i wouldn't call the spontaneous casting for the Animist very "extra" ;)

Those couple of spells gives them a greater spell selection than a sorcerer. At 10 level a animist has 15 spells to use these slots with and everyone is a signature spell while the sorcerer has 20 but the sorcerer only has 5 signature spells vs the 15 that the animist has

At 12 level the animist jumps up to 24 spells the same as a sorcerer with 24 signature spells vs the sorcerers 6.

On top of this the Sorcerer can only change his spells when he levels while the Animist can change his entire spell repertoire every day.

Michael Sayre wrote:

tytalan wrote:

Of course that’s only at 1 st level by 4th he completely out spells you and by 10th he gets more slots that you.

A 10th-level animist has:

5 cantrips
2 1st-rank prepared slots
2 2nd-rank prepared slots
2 3rd-rank prepared slots
2 4th-rank prepared slots
2 5th-rank prepared slots
2 1st-rank apparition slots
2 2nd-rank apparition slots
2 3rd-rank apparition slots
1 4th-rank apparition slot
1 5th-rank apparition slot

for a total of 5 cantrips and 18 slots. Of those, the animist can put any divine spell of an appropriate rank in 10 of the available slots, and can spontaneously cast any of the 15 apparition spells of an appropriate rank available to them in the remaining 8 slots. They can choose 2 cantrips they have access to from the divine list and the other 3 are determined by their apparitions.

A 10th-level cleric has:

5 cantrips
3 1st-rank slots
3 2nd-rank slots
3 3rd-rank slots
3 4th-rank slots
3 5th-rank slots
5 5th-rank divine font slots

for a total of 5 cantrips and 20 slots. They can memorize any divine spell plus their deity spells, within rank-appropriate slots, in 15 of those slots, and are limited to heal or harm in their divine font slots (feats like Channeled Succor, or Restorative Channel as the remastered version is called, can expand the options to include a variety of condition removal spells, as well.) They can memorize any 5 divine cantrips they have access to.

So the cleric has more total slots with more than twice the number of top-rank slots and a wider array of options during preparation, but without the in-the-moment flexibility and off-list access of the animist. Eventually the animist does creep slightly ahead in total number of overall slots, but is always well behind in number of slots for the top ranks of spells due to the cleric's Divine Font.

If we're adding divine font slots in the mix though, then that means that domain focus powers should be remastered to the...

To get that your adding the clerics divine font which can only be used for heal or harm spells and is a unique feature of the cleric. Every other class will only 15 slot’s compared to the animists 18 slots. You cherry picked your comparison to support your point. Plus the cleric has at most 3 none divine spells added to their spell list while the animists has up to 9 such spells. It’s the whole spell package that’s the problem any single aspect is okay but when you add it all together it’s broken.

tytalan wrote:

So to summarize at first level I can prepare any two divine cantrips plus say Tangle Vine and ignition. Plus I can prepare any 1 divine spell plus I can cast either Wall of shrubs or Imposing Earth as I need.

Nice. At first level I have 5 divine cantrips available along with Spout and another primal cantrip that I can change out once per day. Those last two are from ancestry feats though. I also have Magic Weapon, Heal, and Command that I can cast twice with my two spell slots. And there is Brain Drain and Scholarly Recollection as focus spells.

So... is there something wrong with that?

Yea and the extra spells only cost you a ancestor feat. And your character will never have more that 5 the animist will have 7 plus their ancestor spells. And unlike your character the animist can have any divine spell in one slot and a choice of two different none divine spells in his second slot. Of course that’s only at 1 st level by 4th he completely out spells you and by 10th he gets more slots that you. Oh and all of his spontaneous spells are signature spells you only get one per spell rank.

Okay I understand that this is a remastered class but unless all the other classes get more spell slots this is way OP.

1) you have the advantages of both a prepared caster and a spontaneous cast with tho controlled a larger selection of spontaneous spells pre rank than any other spontaneous caster. With the addition benefit of changing them every day and they are all signature spells coming from multiple spell tradition list.

2) on top of this incredible level of versatility they get more spells pre rank than any other class. 6 cantrips and 4 for every rank until 9 than 3 for 9th. And this all without feat cost. On top of this you get versatility in your focus spells and start with 2 focus points. Now you can say that the Apparitions spells are limited but look at the list they are primarily Primal or Arcane spells.

3) on top of all this versatility you can also take feats to add to your Apparitions repertoire which means these spells are also signature spells.

4) to top this off they get legendary spell casting at 19th level making them as good as any other caster.

So to summarize at first level I can prepare any two divine cantrips plus say Tangle Vine and ignition. Plus I can prepare any 1 divine spell plus I can cast either Wall of shrubs or Imposing Earth as I need.

At fourth level I can prepare any 2 divine cantrips plus Tangle Vine, Ignition, and Gouging Claw. 2 rank one and 2 rank two divine spells that I prepared ahead of time and I have a rank 1 and a rank 2 slot that I can use to cast any of the following (Wall of Shrubs, Imposing Earth, runic body, genial Breeze, Entangling Flora, Exploding Earth, Heal, Harm) all of them Signature spells.

This only get more extreme. And I’m not even getting into the fact that this class has a bunch of melee boosts and Wild shape

Verzen wrote:

I disagree. We are way behind in damage potential.

You're behind literally 3 points at this level. You can call that "way behind" if you like but you still just need a 3 point buff to be dead even, and then something to scale up as you level. You could literally just add the Stoke Element buff as an always active thing and you'd be right there, or so close your advantages with range can make up the difference.

Stoke element has a action tax and is either every other turn or one attack a turn take your pick and that’s just with elemental blast anything that two action or more is absolutely every other turn. Welcome to action tax

So we’ve talked about the low to hit, the low DC, the armor issue, the low damage which is worsened by the low DC and we’ve talked about the action tax. Now let’s talk about the Attack of opportunity tax. Now I can just hear people saying the magus takes AOO and that works fine, and yes it does but those are two action attacks with pumped up damage and or effects from a spell and a magus can do regular attacks. Every thing a Kineticist does triggers a AOO including it’s basic elemental blast. And to add insult to injury if you get crit while attempting a elemental blast your MAP progresses. And for those saying the high hit points make up for the disadvantages think about this the Kineticist needs those HPs because he triggers more AOO than any other class and has no real good option to not do so

tytalan wrote:

1) their damage is low and stoke element which only adds 2 or 4 to the damage has a action tax. 2) every AOE attack also has a built in action tax in the form of overwhelm. So 5 actions to do a AOE with +4 to damage vs 1 action to do a strike with 4+ damage bonus plus...

Did you miss that Stoke Element scales with level?

So we pay a feat tax and a action tax causing our DC attack to take 4 action for a max of +10 to damage and we can’t do it back to back since Stoke Element is the last impulse you can do for a turn and you have to have elements gathered first. Turn one gather element, elemental blast which you have a good chance of missing, Stoke element. Turn two AOE which you will probably only do half damage with, gather element, turn three two more attempts of elemental blast, stoke element, turn four repeat turn two.

And since it is impossible to have a starting strength or dexterity of 18 you behind the ball there.

tytalan wrote:

Except in the example of the swashbuckler you use a action to get panache and than you use the finisher you can’t use a action with the attack trait. With elemental blast you just attacking 2-3 times. The swashbuckler is a bad example your closer to a monk. A Monks damage doesn’t...

While that is true, I was pointing out that, the way the class is written now - a level 3 martial with an item worth 100 gp can do damage comparable to a level 20 kineticist with an approx 30000 gp worth handwraps. With two actions.

If that doesn't showcase that the one action elemental blast needs adjustments,I am not sure what will.

As for attacking 3 times in a turn (with the control discipline as per my first post), yes, it wouldbe possible. But MAP applies, so probably not advisable.

You could say the same for a fighter or champion the swashbuckler is going to out damage them because that what the class is designed to do. You can’t expect to make the Kineticist the best combat class in the game the ideal is balance and your expecting to much for damage.

A lot of people have been justifying the lack of legendary DC proficiency by pointing out that extract element gives a penalty to saves and ac. But extract element only works on creatures that have the element tag or have a elemental nature. This means there are many creatures that not only are resistant or immune to a element but also do not have a elemental nature.
Here’s some examples
Imp
Lantern archon
Golem’s
Multadi
That a very quick 10 sec list

tytalan wrote:

I like the discipline ideal tho I only think you need 2 control and potency.

I left the original there in case someone doesn't want to specialise. I am sure there will be people that would like that as well.

Quote:

I don’t think blast damage needs increasing since potency runes are effective.

I will have do disagree here. A +3 major striking handwraps will bring your basic elemental blast damage to 4dx plus whatever damage bonuses you might have. In the case of Mastery (level 15), we are talking about 6 + 6 (greater weapon specialisation + str 22) at level 20. Depending on what element you use, it's either 22, 26, or 30 average damage. A swashbuckler that did spend an action to get panache and land a finisher can do that at level 3 after they get their first striking rune.

Elemental blast damage (the single action one) does not scale. Impulse damage scales with levels, yes. Blast does not.

Quote:

I also think the control discipline need medium armor but I actually don’t think you need anything other the what you’ve given in disciplines.

Armor prof can be gained. But the purpose of those action saving buffs is - well, greasing up the action econonomy. You will want to move, eventually. Or do a 3rd action.

Quote:

I also think only those impulses with the overflow trait should get the action decrease

Don't think that will help anything, since you can't use another overflow impulse on the same round. There might be cases where it could be useful. Like pre-gathering for your next round, but why not have a blanket condition for it? At least you won't have to be looking up individual impulses to double check whether it applies.

Except in the example of the swashbuckler you use a action to get panache and than you use the finisher you can’t use a action with the attack trait. With elemental blast you just attacking 2-3 times. The swashbuckler is a bad example your closer to a monk. A Monks damage doesn’t scale either

The problem is we have to many negatives: overflow action tax, Less damage and last but not leased the DC proficiency deficiency. Probably any two of these would be livable but all three is more than a little extreme. As it is now not only do you do less damage but your target is far likely to save or crit save.

I like the discipline ideal tho I only think you need 2 control and potency. I don’t think blast damage needs increasing since potency runes are effective. I also think the control discipline need medium armor but I actually don’t think you need anything other the what you’ve given in disciplines. I also think only those impulses with the overflow trait should get the action decrease

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Lazarus Dark wrote:

that's almost ten percent of the class budget per the BCS.

Per the BCS?

What is that?

https://www.reddit.com/r/OGL_BCS/comments/uzbkht/balanced_core_system_bcs_1 0_release_post_reverse/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

I reverse engineered the class system and released it to the community a couple months ago.

So you guessed at the class design system and think you have if right. What you have is a guess it might be a educated guess but it’s still a guess. Trying to say you are right is misleading

I disagree the action tax itself limits the per day use add to that the lower Damage and the much greater chance to critical save thus taking no damage and it effectively renders AOEs for the class useless.

When the Kineticist was described I was picturing a class with two effective roles a striking type and a blaster but that’s not what we got.

The striker build is almost solid it needs a little work but the action economy is solid and the rune use means it going to be a useful with either front line fighting or range targeted fighting. The action economy is basically the same as other classes of this type.

The blaster or AOE build gets action taxed to death. Nvm the fact that the DC and Damage is a major issue the blaster also pays 1 &1/2 to 2 times the actions to do these AOEs. No your going to say that’s not true because all the AOEs are two action and yes they are BUT they also have the overwhelm tag so you have to gather element as your first action the next round and the only damage bonus they can use Stoke Element not only costs a action but it’s the only impulse you can use the round you use it. So round one you range attack twice than stoke element round two you use a AOE and that’s it. Round 3 you gather element and maybe range attack twice use a weaker AOE. On top of that gather element, stoke element and all the AOEs hav3 the concentrate and manipulate traits

Lazarus Dark wrote:

I wouldn't say Legendary DC is impossible but the problem is on a martial it would take up a huge amount of the class value budget

That doesn't make a lot of sense mathematically. Right now, the difference between a kineticist's current class DC and caster progression is 6 levels out of 20.

The reality is that a significant majority of the time, the difference in their DC is actually completely irrelevant. At level 5, you have the same DC as a caster. At level 10, you have the same DC as a caster. At level 7 and 8 and 15 and 16 and 19 and 20, your DC is one tier behind, which still only matters for 4 die values out of 20.

In other words, 30% of the time, 20% of the time, your proficiency will make your abilities worse. Your proficiency tier is relevant 6% of the time.

If you're playing a campaign that doesn't even go to 20 like Abomination Vaults, most Society stuff, or typical homegames which rarely seem to last that long, it's going to be even less often than that.

I know the kneejerk reaction is to treat these as a really big deal, but it's hard to call something the lynchpin of balance when what we're talking something that's relevant for such a tiny strip of actually relevant gameplay. If you're level 8 and the enemy rolls a 5 it might suck... but if they rolled a 7 it wouldn't matter and if you were level 9 it wouldn't matter.

It's clearly not something that the entire class is going to live or die on either way.

Actually it is a big deal. If you go universal gate not so much but dual and single gate it is a big deal especially if you building a blaster instead of a hitter. The blaster build already has 2 major disadvantages if you don’t include the weak DC. 1) their damage is low and stoke element which only adds 2 or 4 to the damage has a action tax. 2) every AOE attack also has a built in action tax in the form of overwhelm. So 5 actions to do a AOE with +4 to damage vs 1 action to do a strike with 4+ damage bonus plus runes added to it. This is a major issue

From the playtest i kinda see two paths.

A sustained AoE blaster with some ranged "auto" attacks to weave in in between the blasts. So more of a Mage playstyle.

An elemental switch hitter, focusing on the Elemental Blasts with some AoE thrown in there. Kinda more of a more martial/archer playstyle.

I'd honestly prefer it to go more into direction 2, that seems more novel and fun to me. Optimally they could build for both. Right now i think they cant do either. The impuls feats competing with class feats really feels like you get shafted either way. I think you should honestly get both at the same time (which is how i read it first and it still seemed weak).
And most of the blasts cost like 4 actions (with regathering), so You cant really weave in attacks. In the same time the attacks dont have a damage boost.

Right now the class feels weaker than a druid with a bow that only casts Electric Arc and no other spells. scratch that, cantrip only bow druid actually sounds stronger for quite a while.

I agree there are two paths and I think they need to actually recognize this in the class like the cleric. The AOE blaster suffers from two things 1 it doesn’t get legendary proficiency in class DC and it’s proficiency increases slowly. I think this path should not get Master in either Armor or Strikes but should get legendary class DC and some short of damage buff. That many are missing is that even tho the AOEs only take two actions they all have overwhelm which adds another action tax after the fact. The fact that the AOE actually take three actions four if you use Stoke element which is the only damage increase available for the blaster. That brings up the second point the AOE damage and effects need to increase not a lot but they do need to increase.

The Elemental Hitter need medium armor but can probably make due with expert with class DC. They are the ones getting benefits from runes and str on damage making by far the best current build. I also thing they need to adjust the proficiency increases But I think the hitter is far more likely to be a all gate than the blaster so extract element is of far less important for them.

As things stand now the only effective build is either a str or Dex build hitter with con as either secondary or lower priority.

Also Unicore agile only helps if your playing a melee build and to take advantage of this you lowering your DC yet again. The class definitely suffers from trying to do two vastly different things and can only do the one well. If I wanted a front line character I’d take this class in a minute if I wanted a area effect class this would be the last one I’d take.

But they are not two action AOE they are three because they all have overwhelm which is a action tax you pay after. Also when you compare the damage to most focus spells you doing less damage. With you DC 2 points lower or more if you plan on attacking with melee or range blast as your primary. Stoked Element is a additional action tax so now your up to 5 actions to get a whole +2/+4 to damage while most spells are getting that or better automatically.

I think there’s two main problems with a caster style Kineticist one is the action tax almost all the damaging impulse have overwhelm which is effectively a action tax. Now I don’t see that as a major problem except the class also peeks out at master level DC proficiency. I really think the two types of Kineticist builds need a formal division like the warpriest vs the cloister priest. If you gave the melee/ranged attack version medium armor and dropped the DC proficiency to expert while the caster version keeps only light armor and gets legendary DC proficiency I think this would go a long way to balancing the caster version. Tho I do think some of the damages need to be modified

Martialmasters wrote:

Class DC in general has been over valued in budgets for a while.

This might be the class that gets the most mileage out of its class DC to date. Since even though a lot of your good AoE impulses are overflow, they're two actions so they're kind of spammable if they let you just stand there and throw boulders.

Not likely with the lower DC proficiency. With overflow being a action tax on two action abilities on top of not getting legendary DC proficiency. Plus all the AOE trigger AO. This aspect of the class need work which was why I made my suggestion but since pronate hates clerics he keeps yelling NO NO NO

If your opponents are expected to save on a regular basis and you introduce a class that relies on saving throws but has -2 to DC giving the opponent 20% greater chance to crit save how is that playable. Add to that the same class imposes both a action fee and less damage when using these abilities how is that playable. There is not a single AOE in the class that doesn’t take 2 actions to use and 90% have the overflow tag. All I heard about when people where excited about this class is how it’s a blaster class that will do great AOE but this class does not do that between the lower damage the weaker DC the action tax. There’s not a caster in the game that will not out perform the Kineticist in this type of build.

Pronate when was the last time you seen a Fighter/Champion/Ranger/Barbarian/Swashbuckler that didn’t have their primary attack stat maxed? You don’t that because crits are so important. When was the last time you say a caster that didn’t have their primary DC stat Maxed? You didn’t because DC are so important. This class not only have two primary stats but the DC is screwed by it’s proficiently. Maybe you’ve never ran PC over 10 level but I have and opponents have a hard time failing saves when the caster has all the bonuses. This class might as well not even bother.

Creating two builds makes sense it let people specialize so they can actually do what they want to while letting them dabble. As it is right now the only type of Kineticist that’s worth playing beyond 10 level is a dual or all element melee fighting/range type. The blaster build is just to weak without legendary DCs.

If you have a 18 con and a 16 str you are going to be 3 points short of a fighter at 20 level 1 point short of all others. If you a single element user your going to be useless against anyone immune or resist to your element because you DC is two less vs opponents that normally save when the DC is normal.

So with this build your not only not criting but your also often not doing damage vs opponents of your same element.

I think all of you are looking at this as a purely fighter type class which it is not that only one build type which I would say does work but the AOE build fails without legionary DCs.

By the way pronate you can’t do both that the problem. If you go the strike route you con is at best secondary which give you a -3 to DC if you go the DC route your str/Dex is secondary and you take a similar hit to your strike.

Add to that unless you dual element your always taking a chance of not being able to damage your opponents. It’s the same as the Cleric if you try to do both you fail which is why two main class builds make sense just like the cleric

And the summoner is another totally different type of character their spells are not attack spell they are support and they don’t generally go directly into melee. You keep given example of classes that are completely different and have only one main focus this class has two different possible focuses.

Out of 16 air feats 8 that half of them are DC based and all but one of those have the overflow tag which means even tho they are only two action abilities they have a additional action fee when you use them.

You say the Kineticist is not a caster but those that use the element based feats are closer to a caster than anything else but between the -3 to DC and the extra action cost they are worthless.

So people might just want to play the none direct combat build to bad it’s worthless

Actually they Are at least 3 lower because you have to max you strength or Dex to hit. So that a much greater chance for a critical success. The Thaumaturge is all about damage buffing so your completely wrong about that. The inventor is not a front line combatants yes it can do damage but it also has medium armor as does the Thaumaturge. The Kineticist is a front line fighter but only has light armor and has to sacrifice it’s DC abilities to fight.

It’s not like I’m suggesting two classes I’m just suggesting two core builds. Other wise if you go combat all you DC base abilities are going to be useless. There are few DC abilities for either the Thaumaturge or the inventor most of the element based abilities are DC based for the Kineticist

Plus Thaumaturge almost never uses its DC like most martial classes the Kineticist uses it primarily like a caster if you go the elemental effect route. Your really comparing apples to oranges when you compare the Kineticist to a Thaumaturge or inventor

tytalan wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

The attack is the same as the thaumaturge or inventor. That's not inherently a problem. Also, the DC uses the same progression as the thaumaturge. Damage and action cost are separate issues that can be fixed without spliting the class in half

Thaumaturge have abilities to both improve his to his and to weaken his opponent. The inventor is closer to a investigator which means a skill focused class. This is a front line combat class that has three different core builds but the third is useless. If you want the AC for front line you have to go Dex but lose on damage, if you want to do damage you go strength but lose on the AC in either case almost all the element based feats are useless because not only do you only get master in DC but your con has become you second or third stat.

While a character that want to do the elemental area effects fails because casters do more damage on the effects and have a higher DC.

The only build that works is a Str primary with Dex secondary and con whatever being a melee fighter and never taking elemental specific feats. A Dex primary str secondary can also work but you losing on the damage side.

The elemental build just plans fails the damage is lower than spells and it grows slower as well as suffering from lower DCs

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

I like the class concept but I see a fundamental flaw in the class. On one hand it’s a martial style class that get both master with strikes and armor proficiency while only being trained in unarmored and light armor on the other hand it’s a DC based class but only gets masters in Class DC proficiency. I really think this is a case of Jack of all master of none. Tho I hate to suggest it I think we need a class split like the cleric with a martial version that gets master in strike and un, light, medium armored but only expert in class DC and a blaster version that gets master in un, and light armor as well as legendary proficiency in class DCs. I think this would be a good fix for the problems that I see in the class while keeping it balanced

tytalan wrote:

No your not doing it for damage directly but without legionary proficiency at higher levels you opponents are going to critical success on the save with the lower DC and if that creature is resistant or immune to your element your sidelined in the combat. Since this is a essential ability and almost the only ability that uses the class DC it seems to be a major problem. I’m running AoA and a fire Kineticist would be useless half the time because of this

Well, specializing in fire and fire only in an AP that puts you up against a lot of things with resistance or immunity to fire is definitely playing on hard mode, but fortunately you've got Extract Element, which forces an enemy to Critically Succeed if they don't want those defenses to be ignored or trivialized. The fact that you're also placing a powerful debuff on them and gaining resistance to their attacks is a nice bonus. Hard to think of many other abilities that give you anything half as nice even if the target Succeeds on their save.

It could be any campaign. You have no ideal going into the campaign most of the time and in HB it could be actually worse. As it is now it almost forces the PC to go dual element especially if they add dual element feats in the final version

the more I look at it the more I think they need to break it apart like the cleric with the martial version getting getting master in armor and strikes but only expert in DC and the Effect version getting only Expert in armor and strikes but legionary in class DCs

Also almost every ability that requires a save has the Overflow tag. So I extract element if I succeed I can now attack a opponent that’s resistance or immune but if the ability I use has the overflow tag so if they make their save or not I still have to attempt a extract element again to attack them. And almost all the abilities I’ve seen to do extra damage or a effect requires a save

I suppose they consider them to be like the War Priest but they are already doing less damage with a lot less support abilities to make up for it.

Why ANY full Class doesn't get Legendary in their own Class DC as well as at LEAST their primary thing they're entirely focused around doing based on their chassis is... beyond me, but that's a confusion point that I've held since the CRB Playtest and I haven't yet heard a convincing answer as to why it would be impossible to balance around letting each Class at LEAST invest Class Feats to bring their DC or schtick up to Legendary that I bought...

/shrug

No your not doing it for damage directly but without legionary proficiency at higher levels you opponents are going to critical success on the save with the lower DC and if that creature is resistant or immune to your element your sidelined in the combat. Since this is a essential ability and almost the only ability that uses the class DC it seems to be a major problem. I’m running AoA and a fire Kineticist would be useless half the time because of this

Except the only real time they use DC is for extract element which is entirely a way to bypass rest and immunity. Seems like it forces you to play a dual element

I noticed that the Melee and Ranged Skill is maxed out at master this I can understand but the class DC being max out also at masters seem like a big problem. Extract Element seems to be the main counter to Elemental resistance and I immunity but with the DC limited to master it’s going to be of very limited use at best. If your attacking a high saving thru vs a creature with immunity to your element you can literally be side lined in the combat trying to get them to fail the save just to do anything. Attacks get the benefit of runes but extract element doesn’t

And the Oracle has that in the class description not by a feat. This question only benefits the champions since every class other than the Oracle and psychic has to take natural ambition to get the second focus point.

There are numerous video that claim that the champion feat deity’s domain gives you a focus point even if you already have one. The same videos claim every feat that gives you a focus spell gives you a focus point unless specifically stated they don’t. I believe this is wrong because this is a exception to the fact that every other class can’t get a second focus point at first level unless they take the human ancestry feat natural ambition. Can we get a ruling on this

keftiu wrote:

silversarcasm wrote:

oooooof was really excited for this ap but a whole book being really hag-centric is majorly off-putting

I’m not sure I understand the complaint. What’s the issue?

They're an antisemitic caricature complete with blood libel.

I remove all hags and hag-related playable options at my table because they make me so uncomfortable. This book sounds like its going to be very hard to separate from them.

Hags of PF and D&D are of Celtic origin being evil and corrupted Fey. If you don’t believe me you should check the bestiary. Even the whole Changeling thing comes from the Celtic Myths. Enjoy your game and play the way you want but I thought you might want to know the origin of the creature.