I must agree. The feats looked good. I see something I could take at every level. Could have used a couple more evolution feats for the eidolon itself there are so many good feats.
I really like all the building blocks you have for the eidelon.
Also, twin eidelon is an amazing capstone.
Only spots I could find for substituting feats for something else were 2, 4, 8, and 12, and that was only because having a fair number of slots was real important to my character concept, and I wasn't too fussed about how this particular eidolon became huge.
It wouldn't be that easy for other builds.
My choices would probably be multitalented 9, 10, 12, 14, 18. Summoner has enough good level 1 feats that you'll want that extra human feat to begin with.
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I personally am not a fan of the summoner feats, specially the low lvl ones, so it would not be hard for me to MC with it. The lvl 10 and 12 range I like more though.
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All hail our lord and savior: Free Archetype
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... they are almost all that good I can't find a spot for a dedication feat.
Really great job there!
The shrink one is extraordinary.
Thanks, I worked really hard on it. And I had help from everyone who playtested and gave suggestions here, on other sites, and on the surveys. So thanks to all the playtesters too!
Thanks, I worked really hard on it. And I had help from everyone who playtested and gave suggestions here, on other sites, and on the surveys. So thanks to all the playtesters too!... they are almost all that good I can't find a spot for a dedication feat.
Really great job there!
The shrink one is extraordinary.
Curse you, Mark! I assumed before today that fitting in 5 sorcerer feats would be a cinch. Now I've got too much cool stuff in the class. Honestly though, great class.
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My playtest summoner, Cirieo Thessaddin, from the 2nd module of Ironfang Invasion has returned to the party for the Ironfang assault on the city of Longshadow at the end of the 3rd module. The party called in their old friends. I have been waiting for Secrets of Magic to level him up from 5th level to 7th level.
Cirieo had been an existing NPC in the 2nd module, a halfling ranger who recently lost a leg to a dragon. I rebuilt him as a summoner for the playtest, because I am the GM and lack the energy for a separate playtest campaign.
My main annoyance with the playtest summoner rules was a rule on page 22 of the playtest rules, Riding Independent Creatures. Cirieo was lame, so riding his beast eidolon Fluffy was a natural solution. But the rules, now called Riding Sapient Creatures on page 71 of Secrets of Magic, penalized him.
RIDING SAPIENT CREATURES
Riding along on a sapient creature that isn’t a minion requires a lot of coordination and timing. Both the riding creature and the mount regain only 2 actions at the start of their turns each round, as both the mount and the riding creature interfere with one another’s actions. If you ride your eidolon, you reduce your total actions to 2 and continue to share actions normally—you don’t reduce the number of actions twice.
The penalty was understandable, but it was too harsh for Cirieo. He would start each encounter riding his eidolon, because riding was the only way to keep up with the party. Thus, Cirieo and Fluffy received only two actions. A Dismount would use up one action, without a good use for the remaining 2nd action. Instead, Cirieo felt stuck atop Fluffy with no time to dismount while he spent two actions each turn to cast spells or cantrips. The players eventually decided to fudge his dismount by having Cirieo fall off Fluffy as a free action with a reskinned Grab an Edge reaction to land on his feat.
The final version provided a more elegant fix, Steed Form summoner feat 2. The feat removes the lose-one-action penalty for Cirieo riding Fluffy. This feat might not be useful for most player characters, but it provides a solution for NPCs Cirieo and Fluffy.
I am glad for the good design.
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I personally am not a fan of the summoner feats, specially the low lvl ones, so it would not be hard for me to MC with it. The lvl 10 and 12 range I like more though.
Myself I'm a bit torn. The feats have improved across the board, so that I wouldn't feel bad taking class feats but I'm still not overly excited about the base class [wave casting and the eidolon mechanics] so I'd be more inclined to trade out a class feat for archetype because of that. Mark did a pretty good job as I was ready to write off the class after the playtest so kudos to him. ;)
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All kinds of feats that grant forms, but no Climbing Form.
I guess Skilled Partner will cover it by level 7, but if that is adequate,why have Amphibious Form, which also can be covered by skill feats?
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All kinds of feats that grant forms, but no Climbing Form.
I guess Skilled Partner will cover it by level 7, but if that is adequate,why have Amphibious Form, which also can be covered by skill feats?
Because Amphibious Form can't actually be covered by skill feats. Half of it (the swim speed and not taking penalties to bludgeoning/slashing attacks) can, but there's no skill feat to breathe underwater, nor is there a skill feat to give an aquatic creature a land speed (at least yet, maybe something might appear once Merfolk make the transition, if they do.)
I'm almost positive that was an accidental omission. It's in Evolution Surge, and it was also a feat in the playtest, too.
Probably had to cut it for space, addressing more pressing issues from the playtest.
Would be nice if they add it again as a web supplement to come.I'm almost positive that was an accidental omission. It's in Evolution Surge, and it was also a feat in the playtest, too.Probably had to cut it for space, addressing more pressing issues from the playtest.
Paizo can't go putting every last thing they need to cut into a web supplement, and it'd be an awful experience if they actually did it- probably enough to hurt physical sales. I realize they have done it before, but it's been for much more substantial things than a feat.
Eidolons can climb even if they don't have a climb speed, flight is available, and Evolution Surge gets them a temporary climb speed. If you're in a home game, the playtest tells you exactly what level the feat should be, so it's the easiest homebrew you could ask your GM for.
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Paizo can't go putting every last thing they need to cut into a web supplement, and it'd be an awful experience if they actually did it
Wow yeah, nothing I can think of could be more awful than Paizo releasing new feats and other player options for free online...
Wow yeah, nothing I can think of could be more awful than Paizo releasing new feats and other player options for free online...
Paizo can't go putting every last thing they need to cut into a web supplement, and it'd be an awful experience if they actually did it
Sure, but getting a book and 10% (or whatever) of the content isn't even in the book? Not just as a one-off because of publishing delays, but every time?
Edit: Eh, sorry. That's getting off topic. You're right of course, extra content is nice, even if some people would be annoyed. But Paizo can't do that. I expect a climb speed feat will make an appearance at some point, once there's room for it.
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The summoner feats are great, but I can't help wondering if they are a tax because the core mechanics are below par. If I need to take feats to make the class perform, that is not a good thing.
I don't think they are a tax. You have martial progression, with casting that compares favorably with multiclass casting. Would people trade Hunt Prey or Rage for the amount of casting Summoner gets? Some of them, sure, for certain concepts. It's a bit iffy, but that's because Summoner is also getting some other stuff.
Your eidolon gets a few features for free, there's a free first level evolution for a minor perk, and the free Evolution Surge focus spell gives you a lot of options.
I don't think you need your feats more than Ranger or Barbarian needs their feats. Maybe that's not 100% perfectly accurate, but I don't think the difference is enough to worry about. Now, you might want to take the feats, because they're how you make your eidolon interesting, and improve action economy further, but you'd also probably want to take Barbarian feats if you're playing a Barbarian.
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Well I wouldn't say fully per se. As a martial, the eidolon's got pretty bad damage and doesn't have enhanced defenses like the other low-damage martials either.
Obviously as a summoner you've got other things going on and I agree summoner feats aren't a tax, but it's worth noting if we're making that comparison.
Well I wouldn't say fully per se. As a martial, the eidolon's got pretty bad damage and doesn't have enhanced defenses like the other low-damage martials either.
Obviously as a summoner you've got other things going on and I agree summoner feats aren't a tax, but it's worth noting if we're making that comparison.
There seems to be a high balance cost for versatility. The summoner seems about monk level damage. The monk seems to have lower damage for a higher level of versatility. The summoner does have some nova potential against non-boss creatures.
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Boost Eidolon is equivalent to a 2-step die increase on average.
A standard 18 STR eidolon array then, has the same accuracy as any non-Fighter martial and hits as hard as a 2h fighter would. Having a d10-equivalent agile attack to follow up with is helpful (and it can be a different damage type for resists).
I don't think they're terribly far behind any martial class in damage output when Boost is active (which is almost free in many cases with Act Together).
The 18 str arrays do pay a price of being 1 behind on AC until level 5, though.
They're not exactly a full martial - they have the baseline stats of any martial, but not the special abilities that add bonus damage, basically. Instead you have a summoner bringing some magic backup and a lot of flexibility. But "bad" damage seems to be selling them short by a lot.
How many martials can just swing around pure sonic damage strikes, after all?
Martials have all kinds of damage boosting abilities superior to boost that cost no or less actions except the monk and fighter. The fighter does more damage due to boosted accuracy. That leaves the summoner and monk likely about the same level give or take a little bit. The monk is on the lower end of the damage spectrum.
But both the monk and summoner have a lot of versatility dealing damage, moving, and the like. Which must have some kind of balance cost in the class building rules of the PF2 designers.
It makes sense. If you can attack easier in three dimensions or different environments or move in and out of battle easily, then there must be some kind of cost for doing this otherwise you're going to upstage the other martials.
Even though all of my top Eidolon choices were omitted, I'm loving the class so far. I have a working character with a fey eidolon, but I'm only missing one component, ranged sonic attacks. That and getting an eidolon mount is a little rough for medium summoners.
THAT SAID. Great class. Extremely excited to play. Those are really my only complaints.
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So far I’ve made a Tigrex using beast and I’ve made a Rathalos using Dragon and now I’m working on a wow inspired demonology warlock.Even though all of my top Eidolon choices were omitted, I'm loving the class so far. I have a working character with a fey eidolon, but I'm only missing one component, ranged sonic attacks. That and getting an eidolon mount is a little rough for medium summoners.
THAT SAID. Great class. Extremely excited to play. Those are really my only complaints.
My first thing to build was a puppet using construct eidolons.
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Boost Eidolon is equivalent to a 2-step die increase on average.
A standard 18 STR eidolon array then, has the same accuracy as any non-Fighter martial and hits as hard as a 2h fighter would. Having a d10-equivalent agile attack to follow up with is helpful (and it can be a different damage type for resists).
I don't think they're terribly far behind any martial class in damage output when Boost is active (which is almost free in many cases with Act Together).
The 18 str arrays do pay a price of being 1 behind on AC until level 5, though.
They're not exactly a full martial - they have the baseline stats of any martial, but not the special abilities that add bonus damage, basically. Instead you have a summoner bringing some magic backup and a lot of flexibility. But "bad" damage seems to be selling them short by a lot.
How many martials can just swing around pure sonic damage strikes, after all?
Martials have all kinds of damage boosting abilities superior to boost that cost no or less actions except the monk and fighter. The fighter does more damage due to boosted accuracy. That leaves the summoner and monk likely about the same level give or take a little bit. The monk is on the lower end of the damage spectrum.
But both the monk and summoner have a lot of versatility dealing damage, moving, and the like. Which must have some kind of balance cost in the class building rules of the PF2 designers.
It makes sense. If you can attack easier in three dimensions or different environments or move in and out of battle easily, then there must be some kind of cost for doing this otherwise you're going to upstage the other martials.
This pretty much hits the nail on the head. And I've never seen the monk fail to perform well in actual play, so I don't expect the eidolon to feel weak either.
Is Tandem move legal to do as your Haste action?Monk does have a lot of action economy enhancers that the Eidolon generally lacks. So idk, probably will do okay, but not the best.I am not sure about it.
An eidolon is going to have a similar action economy, and more once haste is allowed.
For example:
1) Tandem move: Either eidolon and summoner moves.
2) Act Together: Summoner > Intimidates + Eidolon > Strike
3) Eidolon > Strikes
4) Summoner > Protect CompanionA monk would have moved ( 1 action ) Indimidated ( 1 action ) flurried ( 1 action ). I see nothing different, apart from the fact a monk will be always able to cover more distance with a single stride.
No, because of the activity rules. Have to be a stride or strike, not tandem move or act together activities.
Monk does have a lot of action economy enhancers that the Eidolon generally lacks. So idk, probably will do okay, but not the best.
I was messing around making a summoner. I made a summoner that did sonic, slashing, and good damage at range with no action cost to switch. That's some pretty versatile damage that came online early on.
For a focus point I could get flight in nearly every battle, which if you build an eidolon with reach could be quite powerful. You can get reach for a focus point as well once you get permanent flight.
The main thing I'm trying to understand is Act Together. The way I read it you could do two 2 action activities, but some are saying due to the example text that the single action must be used for something that can be completed using a single action. It's not how I read it myself, but I can see from the example text why it is interpreted in a very narrow way.
The main thing I'm trying to understand is Act Together. The way I read it you could do two 2 action activities, but some are saying due to the example text that the single action must be used for something that can be completed using a single action. It's not how I read it myself, but I can see from the example text why it is interpreted in a very narrow way.
The Secrets of Magic liveplay on Twitch has restricted Act Together to single actions, so likely how the designers meant it to be used, given Jason Buhlman is running that. Not a definitive answer, but certainly persuasive.
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Monk does have a lot of action economy enhancers that the Eidolon generally lacks. So idk, probably will do okay, but not the best.I was messing around making a summoner. I made a summoner that did sonic, slashing, and good damage at range with no action cost to switch. That's some pretty versatile damage that came online early on.
For a focus point I could get flight in nearly every battle, which if you build an eidolon with reach could be quite powerful. You can get reach for a focus point as well once you get permanent flight.
The main thing I'm trying to understand is Act Together. The way I read it you could do two 2 action activities, but some are saying due to the example text that the single action must be used for something that can be completed using a single action. It's not how I read it myself, but I can see from the example text why it is interpreted in a very narrow way.
It was brought up even in the playtest that the design goal would absolutely to prevent doubling up on two-action activities, because those are balanced against only being usable once per round. (Quicken Spell is one of the few things that gets around that, and it's 1/day.)
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act together is one gets 1-3 actions and the other gets a single action. So if you cast a cantrip for 2 actions the pet gets 1 action. So unfortunately you can't easily do 2 and 2 action abilities but you can do 2 1 and 1.