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Honestly, I don't think the ring is that important for most casters who only want to dabble in spell attack roll spells as an option. For Magi that are stuck with spell attack rolls for almost everything (without the feat), it is a very important item, but if you only memorize one or two spell attack roll spells a day anyway, you are probably doing it to be able to target AC when that is the defense that you want to attack. The item doesn't make spell attack roll spells do damage on a miss, so a spell that targets reflex to begin with is probably going to be the more powerful option.
What the item does is help mitigate the risk of only having spell attack roll spells in a way that is much more interesting than just higher numbers. I think it is a well balanced and thoughtful solution for players that want to blast away with casters. It appears that casters will always have to be tactical in how they use their spells.
Yep. Minor bump for casters using attack spells cantrips or occasional attack spell spells.
A necessity for Magus using attack spells all the time and maxing out at master casting.
Out of all the casters I've played, I rarely use attack spells in slots. AoE spells are far superior for dedicated casters.
All the eidolons have something to offer but given the casting, I don't think divine or primal are the pick here.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify this statement, please?
Any weapon you have will share its runes with the eidolon.
If the weapon isn't handwraps you have to invest in it and be wielding it for your eidolon to benefit though.
Summoners are going to be really slow if you start a combat you aren't already ready for.
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Any weapon you have will share its runes with the eidolon.If the weapon isn't handwraps you have to invest in it and be wielding it for your eidolon to benefit though.
Summoners are going to be really slow if you start a combat you aren't already ready for.
are there any summoner players that wont have there pet out 24 x 7? :)
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Attack spells were largely garbage. This is a fairly expensive magic item that makes them slightly more appealing if you can identify a weak save. It's more flavorful solution than potency runes and it's better overall than simply letting existing attack spells be depreciated by their bad math.
This is how Paizo adjusts the balance of caster attack rolls, and without having to admit there ever was a problem. A little bit of oil for the squeaky wheel.
Plus it helps casters who use recall knowledge, or can just guess.
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A necessity for Magus using attack spells all the time and maxing out at master casting.
Out of all the casters I've played, I rarely use attack spells in slots. AoE spells are far superior for dedicated casters.
I aggree it'd be useful on Magus when they fire a spell normally, but isn't Spellstrike a weapon strike ? It shouldn't be elligible for that effect.
All the eidolons have something to offer but given the casting, I don't think divine or primal are the pick here.I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify this statement, please?
The divine spell list is questionable on the best of days and being so severely limited does it no favors. The primal list lacks much in the way of debuff support for your eidolon as well and buffing is less necessary between boost eidolon and evolution surge. Therefore, I feel the best eidolons are the ones with the arcane or occult traditions, or fey since you gain access to illusion and enchantments arcane spells in addition to the primal list.
Eidolons have two stat lines you can choose from. Basically choose str or dex (except with fey).
I'm assuming Fey have the choice of Dexterity or Charisma for their 18s, then?
In the playtest, the Eidolon used your spellcasting DCs and bonuses for spells they cast. Is that still the case, or do they now just use your proficiency and their own Charisma?
Magus is interesting but in my opinion, their focus spells are not really great. Outside ot the study ones they can pick (all of them somatic):
Force Fang: 1d4+1 damage can't miss, heighten (+2) for 1d4+1
Cascade Countermeasures: Change cascade bonus from damage to spell resistance.
Hasted Assault: Quickened but only for Strikes.
Runic Impression: A property rune, but still limited by your potency rune, you can trade a property rune equipped to one in focus spell by the duration of it.
Eidolons have two stat lines you can choose from. Basically choose str or dex (except with fey).I'm assuming Fey have the choice of Dexterity or Charisma for their 18s, then?
In the playtest, the Eidolon used your spellcasting DCs and bonuses for spells they cast. Is that still the case, or do they now just use your proficiency and their own Charisma?
Both Fey are 18 dex, but one sacrifice stats to have Charisma 16 in the secondary. They still use the summoner spellcasting.
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Man, I kept hearing all the confirmed stuff from the spoilers but I was still hoping that the Summoner would turn out better than it was sounding. But alas looks like my fears were confirmed.
Glad Magus at least has a few cool feats and tricks.
Seems fairly solid. What's not jiving for you?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Magus is interesting but in my opinion, their focus spells are not really great. Outside ot the study ones they can pick (all of them somatic):
Force Fang: 1d4+1 damage can't miss, heighten (+2) for 1d4+1
Cascade Countermeasures: Change cascade bonus from damage to spell resistance.
Hasted Assault: Quickened but only for Strikes.
Runic Impression: A property rune, but still limited by your potency rune, you can trade a property rune equipped to one in focus spell by the duration of it.
They’re all 1 action, and recharge your spellstrike, so I think they all seem pretty decent in that context.
Also, I don’t think Cascade Countermeasures replaces your normal cascade bonuses, I think you get the resistance to spell damage in addition to the normal stuff.
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- Tandem Strike
I'm not a huge fan of tandem strike. It's two attacks for two actions with MAP applying after like the fighter TWF feat, but the Summoner's own attack lags behind so it's not actually as good as two-for-one attacs so you're getting less than it sounds like.
As an offensive option it's pretty much strictly worse than Act Together(electric arc, strike) even against one target. Maybe if you have some really strong 1-action options for your summoner, but it still feels weak for a level 6 feat, imo.
- The new act together. The old was perfect given the character
The new Act Together is purely better though. The playtest version was 1 action for each of you. The final version is basically any non-tandem activity for one of you and one action for another.
You can do everything you could do with the playtest version with the new version, but you can also do things like cast a spell or something with it too.
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- The new act together. The old was perfect given the character
1 action
Frequency, once per round ( not even flourish ).
You and your eidolon each perform a single action. You choose
which order the actions are taken, and you and your eidolon
can each take a different action.Now it's 3 actions you can subdivide how you want.
So it's basicalle 1 action less.Before it was
Act Together ( Boost Eidolon + Strike )
Strike ( Eidolon )
Fortify Eidolon ( Summoner )With quickened ( haste )
Act Together ( Boost Eidolon + Strike )
Quickened = Strike ( Eidolon )
Electric Arc ( Summoner )Also, I wonder if the tandem stride would be mandatory, but I guess so.
I would be absurd to just expend 2 action to stride with either the summoner and the eidolon anyway.
Not sure but think your misreading it; you still get effectively 4 actions a round.
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Yeah tandem strike is underpower in terms of either action management and effect, but it's cool. I mean, it's an extra feat, good to have extra stuff.
As for the new act together, unless I can duplicate the examples I gave, I don't think it's better than before.
The quickened boost kick in at lvl 20, so using either boost and reinforce eidolon in the same round seems not a choice anymore.
But... you can duplicate those examples you gave. Both of them.
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But... you can duplicate those examples you gave. Both of them.Yeah tandem strike is underpower in terms of either action management and effect, but it's cool. I mean, it's an extra feat, good to have extra stuff.
As for the new act together, unless I can duplicate the examples I gave, I don't think it's better than before.
The quickened boost kick in at lvl 20, so using either boost and reinforce eidolon in the same round seems not a choice anymore.
Act Together (One action-Boost eidolon/ Eidolon strike)
Eidolon strikeFortify eidolon
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I don't know why you think you can't do those examples with the new version, you absolutely can. Again, you can use the new act together exactly the same as the playtest version, you can just also do other things too.
Man, I kept hearing all the confirmed stuff from the spoilers but I was still hoping that the Summoner would turn out better than it was sounding. But alas looks like my fears were confirmed.
Glad Magus at least has a few cool feats and tricks.
Sounds like it might be a good multiclass option. We'll see how it works.
I'm interested to see how the saves work. The AoE disadvantage on saves is very bad. The class will get clowned at higher level if that rule is still in there.
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Man, I kept hearing all the confirmed stuff from the spoilers but I was still hoping that the Summoner would turn out better than it was sounding. But alas looks like my fears were confirmed.
Glad Magus at least has a few cool feats and tricks.
Sounds like it might be a good multiclass option. We'll see how it works.
I'm interested to see how the saves work. The AoE disadvantage on saves is very bad. The class will get clowned at higher level if that rule is still in there.
oh its there alright. There's a feat at 10 that gives you a reaction to use the lower damage instead
Man, I kept hearing all the confirmed stuff from the spoilers but I was still hoping that the Summoner would turn out better than it was sounding. But alas looks like my fears were confirmed.
Glad Magus at least has a few cool feats and tricks.
Sounds like it might be a good multiclass option. We'll see how it works.
I'm interested to see how the saves work. The AoE disadvantage on saves is very bad. The class will get clowned at higher level if that rule is still in there.
Still there, you take the worst result between you and the eidolon.
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Yes that's pretty much still there. If an AoE damages or heals both of them, you take larger value. If you're both slowed or something, you apply whichever is greater (and if one of you is slowed it hits the whole action pool regardless).
But if your eidolon is petrified/controlled/confused/etc. the summoner can get around it by not giving them actions.
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...Reflex can benefit from cover the same as AC...Not if it's just lesser cover, like that from a creature. :)
I'd say being able to shoot through a crowd of people while ignoring the cover they provide on top of all the other benefits already mentioned up thread is a pretty big boon.
From what I understood on the threads (no book yet), that is not how it works. I believe you figure out your to hit with all the usual penalties for an attack spell, including cover. Only at the end, to assess the result, you compare it to REF DC rather than to AC.
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From what I understood on the threads (no book yet), that is not how it works. I believe you figure out your to hit with all the usual penalties for an attack spell, including cover. Only at the end, to assess the result, you compare it to REF DC rather than to AC....Reflex can benefit from cover the same as AC...Not if it's just lesser cover, like that from a creature. :)
I'd say being able to shoot through a crowd of people while ignoring the cover they provide on top of all the other benefits already mentioned up thread is a pretty big boon.
But cover doesn't affect your attack roll. It provides a bonus to the target's AC and reflex saves against area effects. Since the reflex bonus specifies it works only against area effects, touch attack via the ring shouldn't be influenced by cover at all.
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It's a ring (level 10, costs 1000 gp), not a feat.
It also doesn't turn attacks into save spells. You still roll a spell attack, just against reflex or fort DC instead of against AC.
As usual, you save DC is affected by anything that would also affect an applicable saving throw.
So Bulwark would increase the target's reflex DC against damaging spell attacks but not against those without any damage (like Ray of Enfeeblement).
The ring not only is useful against covered targets but also against any AC circumstance bonus like shields AC bonus. This make this ring very useful against humanoid opponents once is relative easier to guess the opponent weakness. (reflex for heavy armored/shielded opponents/Fort or AC for spellcasters or light armored opponents)
Really excited to make all stripes of summoner. As far as the dedication capping at expert attacks, what are some of the benefits over having a animal companion? I'm guessing it's the modularity. AC has more raw power but eidelon can be fine tuned to be what you want.
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Really excited to make all stripes of summoner. As far as the dedication capping at expert attacks, what are some of the benefits over having a animal companion? I'm guessing it's the modularity. AC has more raw power but eidelon can be fine tuned to be what you want.
It shares your skills proficiencies, so you could be a twink 8 STR Sorcerer that increases Athletics together with a 16/18STR Eidolon to use it.
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Really excited to make all stripes of summoner. As far as the dedication capping at expert attacks, what are some of the benefits over having a animal companion? I'm guessing it's the modularity. AC has more raw power but eidelon can be fine tuned to be what you want.It shares your skills proficiencies, so you could be a twink 8 STR Sorcerer that increases Athletics together with a 16/18STR Eidolon to use it.
ohhh. Your eidelon being a quasi second character is a perk I legitimately never considered. It can contribute out of combat a lot more than a AC
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ohhh. Your eidelon being a quasi second character is a perk I legitimately never considered. It can contribute out of combat a lot more than a ACReally excited to make all stripes of summoner. As far as the dedication capping at expert attacks, what are some of the benefits over having a animal companion? I'm guessing it's the modularity. AC has more raw power but eidelon can be fine tuned to be what you want.It shares your skills proficiencies, so you could be a twink 8 STR Sorcerer that increases Athletics together with a 16/18STR Eidolon to use it.
Agreed, it even calls out that the Summoner and the Eidolon can each do different exploration activities. That has some nice perks to it.
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NG Summoner with a Demon Eidolon. Dropped out of magic school because of Eidolon's shenanigans. Ah yeah, I'm feeling it.
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Leshies and plant eidolons are also going fun. Cactus leshy with a cactus eidolon that it rides into battle, or fuses with.
Eidolons also make better scouts than animal companions. They can communicate, and if you unfetter one it can move a pretty far distance away. It's easy to tell if your eidolon gets in trouble, as well, since you share HP, and you can unmanifest it to get it out of trouble before returning it to your side.
Can you unfetter it for longer than a minute now?
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Can you unfetter it for longer than a minute now?Leshies and plant eidolons are also going fun. Cactus leshy with a cactus eidolon that it rides into battle, or fuses with.
Eidolons also make better scouts than animal companions. They can communicate, and if you unfetter one it can move a pretty far distance away. It's easy to tell if your eidolon gets in trouble, as well, since you share HP, and you can unmanifest it to get it out of trouble before returning it to your side.
The Unfetter spell is still a minute. But there's an Eidolon item, a Collar of the Eternal Bond, that makes the default distance 150 ft, and once a day for 5 minutes makes the distance unlimited.
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So am I reading the summoner multiclass right in that the eidolon cannot be commanded like a minion? There doesn't seem to be anything removing the "not a minion and you share actions" clause but you don't have Act Together, which would mean that you only have the baseline three actions to share between the two.
So am I reading the summoner multiclass right in that the eidolon cannot be commanded like a minion? There doesn't seem to be anything removing the "not a minion and you share actions" clause but you don't have Act Together, which would mean that you only have the baseline three actions to share between the two.
That's correct. And since you can't use tandem actions either, things like steed form are near worthless. Between action economy issues, eidolon proficiency not going past expert, and the usual multiclass feat restrictions, it's not one you'll see people use often.
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So am I reading the summoner multiclass right in that the eidolon cannot be commanded like a minion? There doesn't seem to be anything removing the "not a minion and you share actions" clause but you don't have Act Together, which would mean that you only have the baseline three actions to share between the two.That's correct. And since you can't use tandem actions either, things like steed form are near worthless. Between action economy issues, eidolon proficiency not going past expert, and the usual multiclass feat restrictions, it's not one you'll see people use often.
Agreed, there is nothing to give you more HP for the shared pool and MAP is shared. This along with not being able to use act together or tandem actions, I just don't see the Eidolon as worth it. Seems directly worse than an AC for most cases. Certainly not many martial builds will want it. Seems the thing if you just want a better familiar rather than partner.
Yeah.....Summoner archetype seems niche, I can see it useful for Investigators( they can use devise a stratagem...and if its a poor roll the Eidolon can use the rest of the turn) bards..(who want to inspire courage and then let their eidolon go out and so stuff) maybe rogues to get an automatic flanking body, or Divine casters who have less options to attack.(at least those are some of my ideas on how it can still be useful)
Any stand out feats for Magus? Besides the ones previously mentioned?
A lot of magus feats are pretty standard stuff. Nothing I'd call standout but some I noted:
Arcane fists at 1st.
Magi don't get a level 1 feat. If you want to punch play some human derivative.
Student of the staff at 4th level as already mentioned.
AoO at 6th in case anyone thought it wouldn't be.
Cascade countermeasure at 6th. Focus spell that requires you to be in Arcane stance. Gives you resist 5 to all spell damage while in stance. +5 per 3 levels (3/6/9).
Level 8 has the interesting feats
Fused staff lets you put a staff in your main weapon and spellstrike with its spells.
Runic impression adds a property rune and suppresses another if you're at cap.
Spell swipe. 3 actions, spellstrike two adjacent enemies. Interesting to note that your spell needs to be able to target at least two enemies to actually work against both. Can be used with the 2nd level feat to use non attack roll spells. If used with an AoE spell, you choose in advance where it'll start and lose the spell on a crit fail. For targeted spells, you lose the spell only if you crit fail vs both targets.
Standby spell. Can pick a spell in your spellbook and spontaneously cast it for spellstrikes. Can change the spell after studying spellbook for an hour.
Arcane shroud at 14th. Much like the playtest. Cast a spell, enter the new Arcane stance and get a bonus buff spell for free.
Whirlwind spellstrike at 20th. See the level 8 feat it works the same.
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Just to be sure, the spell damage resistance given by arcane stance + arcane cascade is only against spells or spells and magical effects?
to quote: You gain resistance 5 against damage from spells.