Sagiam's page

Now that Firebrands is out I can finally talk about my favorite new absurdity: the Shield Pistol!

While an Item can't have more than one weapon attached to it, you can attach a weapon to another attached weapon as long as it's the appropriate type. So you can attach a bayonet to a shield pistol, that's attached to a meteor shield that you can throw at an enemy. Take Bastion archetype and Nimble shield hand and you can dual wield thrown-shield-gun-knifes!!!

Thrower's Bandolier works with any one-handed weapon with the thrown trait. Dagger Pistols are a one-handed weapon with the thrown trait. And at light bulk you can have up to 20 of them loaded into your bandolier. Quick Draw allows you to do the archetypical draw and fire style everyone thinks Gunner's Bandolier should do.

Slinger's reflexes doesn't work with Fake Out*. Slinger's reflexes only gives you an extra reaction on enemy's turns not allies.

*You could use it on an allies attack during an enemy's turn, like say from Attack of Opportunity. Still pretty situational.

While I'm on it, Hit the dirt leaves you prone and thus unable to take move actions, which Hit the dirt is. And almost all the other gunslinger reactions require a loaded gun, which you can't reload in between turns. Meaning that the only reaction that Slinger's Reload works more than once a round with is Instant Return.

And because it specifies Gunslinger reactions you can't use it with reactions from an archetype like a Champions reaction.

Drifters don't need Dual-weapon Reload. With reloading strike they can reload even on a critical miss, and if an enemy isn't within range they can "make a strike against an invisible enemy I suspect is within an adjacent square," aka swing into empty air and reload.

Your example on Capacity is wrong. It takes an action to switch to a new barrel. So you could not shoot three times in a round.

A Shoony Investigator with his albino Goblin Barbarian companion.

Not at all.

Oh yeah, that discussion. Well, unlike before, we now have another example:

Your spell becomes volatile and explosive. If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell that deals damage to a single target and the spell successfully damages that target, the spell explodes, dealing splash damage equal to the level of the spell cast to adjacent creatures. Unlike normally, this splash damage doesn't apply to the target. The splash damage dealt is of the same type the spell deals.

So it does really seem Splash is meant to inherently damage adjacent creatures. (and to the primary target although this calls that out as an exception.)

Hilariously enough, while you can't use the gunners bandolier as an action fix, you can put dagger or cane pistols into the Throwers bandolier and then Quickdraw them.

I see them as "Meat points". Primarily because there's also the issue of environmental damage. Sure you can describe damage from dragons breath or fireballs as "near misses", but what happens when the barbarian or fighter needs to pull a Grog and swim through a river of acid? Or they go through an unmitigated free fall 100 feet onto solid stone and walk it off.

And yes, this means on some level (and at some Level) everyone in the party is going to be superhuman. I understand some people have an issue with that, but personally I'm okay with it. I feel pure mundanity goes out the window when the barbarian can grow 20 feet tall and stomp an earthquake into existence.

Amazingly, the Ranger gets no inherent bonus for tracking (only your Prey if it runs away...and how often does that happen?). Find some tracks in the wood? A Cleric with the same proficiency in Survival is going to be better at initial tracking. A Druid, Cleric, or even Rogue with equal Wisdom can make your Ranger's primary skills redundant.

The reality is that Ranger is good at Nature and Survival simply because you start with those skills Trained. Any class with the same Wisdom and Skill Increases can be just as good. Doesn't it seem odd that the Ranger who is suppose to "hunt prey" is no better at initially locating tracks than any other class? I mean really?

Ummm... No? You can use the Hunt Prey Action while tracking something giving you a +2 bonus over those other classes. And then when you catch up to it, you start with it hunted, meaning you don't have to spend an action to hunt prey. A GM that is only letting you hunt prey in combat is like a GM not letting an Investigator Pursue A Lead. Of course it's going to be less effective and feel off.

You designate a single creature as your prey and focus your attacks against that creature. You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration.

You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your prey and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your prey. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment against the prey you’re hunting.

You can have only one creature designated as your prey at a time. If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation. Your designation lasts until your next daily preparations.

3) Even more complicated, the bow gantlet from TV has parry. I assume you can't use the parry trait while the gantlet is holding something, but I can't find that written as a rule

You can only Parry while wielding the weapon, which you aren't doing if you are holding something in that hand.

This weapon doesn't take up your hand, usually because it is built into your armor. A free-hand weapon can't be Disarmed. You can use the hand covered by your free-hand weapon to wield other items, perform manipulate actions, and so on. You can't attack with a free-hand weapon if you're wielding anything in that hand or otherwise using that hand. When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand. Each of your hands can have only one free-hand weapon on it.

You can't attack with a free-hand weapon while it's occupied but it doesn't say anything about you not wielding it.

Nothing to really to add to the validity (or lack there of) of the build, but it does remind me of a comment I read about the Demon Summoner. Because the Demon Eidolon's demonic strikes lets you have Versatile in any type of physical damage, choose bleed, because bleeds a type of physical damage.

When I first saw it I kinda just dismissed it, because at the time I just thought Versatile was for bludgeoning, piercing, slashing... obviously. Then King of the Mountain came out with a feat that gives Versatile Positive so what do I know.

Themetricsystem wrote:

Wait... is the Brewer's Regret just the Golarian version of Malört?

I think it is meant to be Marmite

It's Marmite or Vegemite. And the description for the effect is absolutely hilarious.

"it also creates a strong desire to live to taste anything else."

So, going ALL the way back to the OP's original statement. I can't remember the name of it right now but isn't there canonically a magical super artifact book that literally lists all the crappy, messed up stuff the good gods and forces of good have had to do, in the name of a better tomorrow? One that would magically break the faith of any good reader?

Edit: Found it! The Apocrypha to the Chronicle of the Righteous.

Backpack Catapult has the Volley trait but doesn't list a distance for it, so currently the volley trait is non-functional for it.

Whoops. See, this is what I get for posting late at night. The AoN doesn't have the range listed but the GnG pdf does list "Volley 50 ft".

Backpack Catapult has the Volley trait but doesn't list a distance for it, so currently the volley trait is non-functional for it.

You are missing the point. "You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it." This does not mean the Shield becomes a weapon, only that you must be wielding the shield in order to use the weapon attached to it. If an ability asks you to draw a weapon, the shield doesn't count because shields aren't weapons. Attaching a weapon to a shield does not make the shield into a weapon.

A better example of this is a Wheelchair with Wheel Spikes. Do the Wheel Spiked make the chair into a weapon? No, of course not. The weapon is the spikes themselves, not the item they are attached to.

OH! You're talking about drawing the item with Into The Fray, not making a Reloading Strike!

Oh, yeah, agree completely.

This is the PF2 forum. All the mythic stuff is still PF1 as far as I know. I'll flag the thread for you.

I'm pretty sure this is in the wrong forum. This is the Playtest forum and the GnG Playtest is long over. I'm honestly not sure why this forum isn't locked. I think this would be better served in General Discussion.

As for OP's question, no. A shield with an attached weapon is not considered a weapon. Just like how attaching a Reinforced Stock to a gun won't make it suddenly count as a melee weapon. Attachments are just that, attachments, they don't change anything about the item they're attached to.

Uh, what? Attached weapons are absolutely weapons. They have a listing in the weapons section with their own Price, Damage, Bulk, Hands Value, Category, Group type, and Traits.

Speaking of traits, here's the Attached trait.

An attached weapon must be combined with another piece of gear to be used. The trait lists what type of item the weapon must be attached to. You must be wielding or wearing the item the weapon is attached to in order to attack with it. For example, shield spikes are attached to a shield, allowing you to attack with the spikes instead of a shield bash, but only if you're wielding the shield. An attached weapon is usually bolted onto or built into the item it's attached to, and typically an item can have only one weapon attached to it. An attached weapon can be affixed to an item with 10 minutes of work and a successful DC 10 Crafting check; this includes the time needed to remove the weapon from a previous item, if necessary. If an item is destroyed, its attached weapon can usually be salvaged.

Emphasis mine. You're right in that the attached trait doesn't change anything about the item they're attached to. They don't have to. Your wielding the item AND the attached weapon. Reloading strike requires you to wield a one-handed melee weapon. A shield boss is listed under Melee Weapons and has Hands 1. You can use it with reloading strike just fine.

Sagiam wrote:

Slinger's Reflexes is broken and not in the buzzword way. Because you can't reload between turns, the only Gunslinger reaction you can use more than once with Slinger's Reflexes is Instant Return.

Huh?

Where is the rule that says you can't reload when not your turn? I'm not aware of that one.

And while it may be the case that you can't use the same reaction multiple times (like Grit and Tenacity that has a frequency limit of once per hour no matter how many reactions you have), that doesn't mean that you can't use different ones with your extra reactions.

Well... you can't reload outside your turn for the same reason you can't cast a one-action spell outside your turn. It's not your turn. And unless I missed something really important, there aren't any reactions or free actions that let you reload outside your turn, Instant Return aside. (Edit: Please tell me if I missed something, I'd love to be wrong about this.)

The problem isn't with Slinger's Reflexes really. The problem is that most of the gunslingers reactions require a loaded firearm.

You are correct, you could use Fake out, Hit the Dirt!, Grit and Tenacity, one reaction requiring a loaded firearm, and Instant Return, all once... but that is really, really situational and kind of lame for a 20th level feat.

Sagiam wrote:

Prone characters can't leap. Leaping is a move action and prone characters can't take any move action except to crawl or stand up.

Edit: Prone
Leap
Hit the Dirt!

And yes, because it includes leaping, Hit the Dirt! counts as a move action thanks to subordinate action rules.

Slinger's Reflexes is broken and not in the buzzword way. Because you can't reload between turns, the only Gunslinger reaction you can use more than once with Slinger's Reflexes is Instant Return.

It actually works with Fake Out too. The feat requires having a loaded weapon but it doesn't say you fire it. It's right there in the name even - you're miming shooting at them to divert attention.

Slinger's Reflexes only gives you an extra reaction on your enemies' turns, not your ally's.

Slinger's Reflexes

Prone characters can't leap. Leaping is a move action and prone characters can't take any move action except to crawl or stand up.

Edit: Prone
Leap
Hit the Dirt!

And yes, because it includes leaping, Hit the Dirt! counts as a move action thanks to subordinate action rules.

Slinger's Reflexes is broken and not in the buzzword way. Because you can't reload between turns, the only Gunslinger reaction you can use more than once with Slinger's Reflexes is Instant Return.

Oh, woe is my poor Weapon Inventor. When they use their Devastating Weaponry to hit every enemy in their ZIP code, they only add an extra +1 to attack and +8 to damage from the sweep and forceful traits... on their Greatsword.

Oh, we're doing a ritual/downtime tomorrow? I guess they'll switch their Innovation for a construct... that's legendary in as many skills as the Rogue.

This is a lot like Skill Feats that require Expert and are level 2. There are plenty of them. Their level requirement is the lowest level that anyone can meet the prereq, not the lowest level that everyone can meet the prereq. There isn't a problem here.

Reverse Engineer isn't a skill feat.

OR, like I said, they left it at level 2 so it could be taken by anyone taking the Inventor Dedication with the Basic Breakthrough feat. If it were level 4, anyone multi-classing would need to take Basic Breakthrough, and then wait until level 8 to take Advanced Breakthrough, when their Crafting would already likely be at Master.

Firstly, I never said it shouldn't be level 2. Personally I think its requirement should be trained in crafting not expert. I think they just copied the wording from Reverse Engineering and made it -2 levels (as is the standard formula for "Class Feat to Non-MC Archetype feat") without realizing nobody could actually take it with that requirement.

Secondly, why? The standard for MC Archetypes is half-level access to feats. Why, out of every feat in the game, is this one accessible to the MC Inventor and an actual Inventor at the same level and in the most obtuse way possible?

I've never understood the mindset of it being seen as a negative/bad thing for a feat to be in between two options, which is basically what's happening here. I doubt anyone would bring up whether it should be a 2nd level feat vs a 4th level feat if it was 4th level and required expert or if it was 2nd level and required trained. So... what's the problem with something in between that with marginal benefits for some people?

Same thing with casters getting feats that are "level 1" despite most non-human characters not getting to actually take them until level 2. There just so happens to be more of those examples because there needs to be for things like that human feat.

It's not a negative/bad thing. It's just pointing out Occam's razor.

What's more likely? Paizo purposefully designed a feat for a main class that can only be taken at the level it's listed by one specific faction-locked archetype from the Lost Omens: World Guide, while using an optional, non-core, rule from the Game Mastery Guide.

Or somebody did a typo.

AnotherGuy wrote:

I would love to get a tankier caster, a more "in the fray" caster

What would that look like?

When I think of a tanky caster I think of a spellcasting class with champion dedication or bastion archetype. Or a magus with bastion archetype. Or a warpriest cleric. Or a defense focused eidolon with the spellcasting options.

I guess my curiosity is better expressed as, what would it look like that you couldn't already build and be less tanky than a straight champion?

The Oracle.

No really, hear me out.
Flame has better reflexes and constant concealment. Cosmos has damage reduction. Battle has better armor and eventually fast healing. Life has more hit points and better heals. Bones has better fortitude and strong defensive focus spells. Tempest gets a bonus against ranged attacks and the most common energy attack type.

Except for Ancestor and Lore, all of the mysteries get an immediate (level one) boost to their survivability, and in a way that isn't necessarily just the old "more AC". I think that oddly, the Oracle provides a good benchmark for spellcaster based "tankiness".

Defending the Lion Scythe, it looks like AoN missed that it's agile, finesse, and trip from looking at the book.

I believe AoN has a discord for reporting any errors that come up.

Edit:

With new features come potential bugs, so as always if you spot anything awry, please come let us know on one of our Discord feedback channels. We'll be doing another update this weekend to fix any issues found during that time, so let us know as soon as possible if you find something to ensure it stands the best chance of getting fixed in time (otherwise, it'll be a bug until the next official release).

People on here know that triggering an AoO doesn't prevent the damage from going through unless they crit right? Dead targets can't AoO anymore.

It could be worse. It could be precision damage.

Due to the Poppet and Automaton special psuedo-construct status, they don't have an immunity to things like Lycanthropy, so that route is open for Beastkin.

The blood of a beast flows through your veins, granting you the ferocity and might of animals. Only creatures with the humanoid trait can take the beastkin versatile heritage.

Emphasis mine. So, weirdly, by RAW, the poppet can take the Beastkin heritage but the Automaton and Leshy can't.

Still, it's two rare options interacting so we are firmly in GM fiat territory at this point. If they're ok with you playing a Mighty Morphin' Were-Robot, I don't see anything unbalancing about it.

*Off-topic* The Thaumaturge isn't remotely close to an Investigator. It has closer similarities to the Inventor (skill-based damage bonus offset by non-attack-attribute class attribute on a martial chassis with no "replacement" mechanic, versatile subclasses, high utility and downtime focus in feats, recharge-every-ten-minute-abilities that are focus spells by any other name, a few free skill increases to keep signature skills up but not nearly as many as Rogue or Investigator, Implements Assault/Devastating Weaponry are identical etc.)

Sagiam wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Sagiam wrote:

Slinger's Reflexes doesn't work. It doesn't let you reload your gun so the only gunslinger reaction you could use more than once is Instant Return. (Which is extremely situational at best.)

Plus hit the dirt and fake out.

Edit: hit the dirt makes you prone, so couldn't use it more than once. Yeah, it's pretty much just fake out.

I thought so at first too. But Slinger's reflexes only gives you extra reactions during an enemies turn. It doesn't give you any more reactions than normal during your ally's turn. Theoretically, I suppose, you could use it to use Fake Out during one of your ally's reactions on an enemy's turn but that's it.

Man, those 20th level feats just aren't all that great in general. Even the Quickened one is kinda underwhelming since it's just a generic Reload, which you already get to combine with other actions anyways, plus Step.

I very much agree, although I don't want to derail this thread. (I could. I could go on and on about underwhelming 20th level feats, but this isn't the place for it.) Still this seems to be the only 20th level feat that's actually broken and largely unusable.

Sagiam wrote:

Slinger's Reflexes doesn't work. It doesn't let you reload your gun so the only gunslinger reaction you could use more than once is Instant Return. (Which is extremely situational at best.)

Plus hit the dirt and fake out.

Edit: hit the dirt makes you prone, so couldn't use it more than once. Yeah, it's pretty much just fake out.

I thought so at first too. But Slinger's reflexes only gives you extra reactions during an enemies turn. It doesn't give you any more reactions than normal during your ally's turn. Theoretically, I suppose, you could use it to use Fake Out during one of your ally's reactions on an enemy's turn but that's it.

It is now up on the Archives of Nethys

Slinger's Reflexes doesn't work. It doesn't let you reload your gun so the only gunslinger reaction you could use more than once is Instant Return. (Which is extremely situational at best.)

Although oddly not on Archives yet.

That's all.

Man, I'm so glad everyone on this thread is providing anecdotes from their own play experiences, instead of talking out their butts. /s

Reminds me of the very early "Kineticist Sucks" threads.

Removing Enemies Early - Absolutely true! However two things. The fighter starts off with a spellstrike too, and it is almost as big (maybe 10% difference?) as the magus. Plus, an enemy worth using your top level spell strike on is almost certainly not dying round one. (Well, I mean it could if everyone crits I suppose, but how often does that happen)

So one thing I see brought up a lot is how a Fighters 2 attacks does more average damage than a Magus's cantrip spellstrike. What I do not see brought up is the fact that if a Magus crits with their strike they crit with both the weapon and the spell. Now, I don't know the math on this, but I know enough to know that critting with one attack is way more likely then critting twice in a row. Especially once you start stacking flat-footed, true strike, etc.

It doesn't matter if the fighter does more damage over two, three, or ten rounds, if the target is dead.

I can't wait for more "Fighter MC (blank) is the superior (blank)" threads. "Fighter MC Summoner is the superior Summoner".

I think comparing the magus to the fighter is comparing apples to oranges. I'd prefer to compare apples to apples; I'd compare it to the swash.

The similarities aren't subtle. Both have a near constant small damage buff (precise strike/arcane cascade), both have a large "nova" strike with a recharge mechanic (Finisher/Spellstrike), and both have a greater focus on combat utility than a Fighter or Barb, but less than a Rogue or Investigator (skills/spells). Really, the magus is basically what you'd get if you stripped away the skill focus from a swash and gave them spells.

So, how does the Magus compare to its cousin, the Swashbuckler?
In a word? Well.
1.The magus's damage buff is functionally constant. You turn on your arcane cascade and that's it. The Swashbuckler has to spend their damage buff in order to use their big strike.
2. Seguing nicely, the Swashbucklers recharge mechanic (gaining Panache) is unreliable, especially at low levels or against boss enemies. The Magus's, comparatively, is guaranteed to work. Only Magus's Analysis has a chance to fail the recharge.
3. The nova strike (the only thing people care about on here)? Not even close. Spellstrike does more damage even with a cantrip, scales way better, and often has better rider effects. The one thing the Finisher has going for it is it's one action, not two, but this is mitigated by the fact that it can be your only attack in the round.

There is a word for your Wizard with an M16 example. Hyperbole. Indeed I’d struggle to think of a better example of hyperbole if i tried

Everything else aside, this statement is hilariously ironic.

*reading the 5e which is around for 6 years, has gotten barely any new content, will be replaced in 3 years which are probably also devoid of any notable content*

Hmmm...

*Looks at Pathfinder pdf collection and Paizos release schedule*

I think I'm good...

And it's FREE on a regularly updated website with a SEARCH FUNCTION.

Edit: Legally and Officially too!

Sagiam wrote:

Interesting is one word for it.

They've released some tidbits.
Standouts are, a set of feats for each race including some mutually exclusive ones at first level (the word "Heritage" was actually used), and "a pool of options for each class at every level to customize your class".

Yeah. Now all they need to do is to mention a 3 action economy.

Any chance you can post some links to where they’ve mentioned those details (for those of us out of the loop)?

Linkies:

A live reaction Original stream is in video description, but be warned it's 9hrs long.

Final thoughts video.
Edit: More linkies

Moar
Don't remember which of these had those details

Sagiam wrote:

Interesting is one word for it.

They've released some tidbits.
Standouts are, a set of feats for each race including some mutually exclusive ones at first level (the word "Heritage" was actually used), and "a pool of options for each class at every level to customize your class".

Yeah. Now all they need to do is to mention a 3 action economy.

Any chance you can post some links to where they’ve mentioned those details (for those of us out of the loop)?

I'll try and find them again.

Interesting is one word for it.

They've released some tidbits.
Standouts are, a set of feats for each race including some mutually exclusive ones at first level (the word "Heritage" was actually used), and "a pool of options for each class at every level to customize your class".

Yeah. Now all they need to do is to mention a 3 action economy.

GGSigmar wrote:

There is a guy (not me this time) doing an AMA for Guns and Gears on reddit right now: Linkified

Thank you!!

Jolken Jenkins wrote:

So to begin with, the Giant Instinct lets any Small or Medium creature wield a weapon built for a Large creature, that's all fine. BUT if you pick up Giant's Stature, it says you become Large regardless of whether you were Small or Medium before and also that your equipment grows with you. So if a Small barbarian grows two size categories to Large, does the weapon also grow two size categories to Gargantuan? Whereas a Medium creature would only grow one size category and would only end up with a Huge weapon?

Yes. But changing the size of the weapon doesn't do anything beyond the description of the ability. You didn't lose anything by being smaller, so you don't get anything back.

Giant Instinct itself doesn't change your size.

Giants Stature does, and it does change your weapon size too. The only rules problem I can see here is that size tiny character would also get normal reach back from no longer being tiny, then get the extra reach in the ability.

There are no rules for weapons of different sizes doing different damage just this and this.

Its a big change since the previous system, and I hated it as you will see if you dig back in the forum. But that is the rules, and the intention of the designers.

There's a problem, because one statistic does change. Bulk.

A large creature has their bulk limit doubled, (so let's say from 9 to 18) but a gargantuan weapon has its bulk multiplied by 8.
So if it works as per the OP states their Greatsword (and most two-handed weapons really) would take up 16 out of their 18 bulk limit.

A more minor note, but since the thaumaturge doesn't have a way to recover implements and second/third implement doesn't explicitly state that you obtain those implements, then by pure rules as written, those two features do nothing.

Ummmm...

You’ve developed a greater connection to another item, or found a new item with potential.

Well, Electric Arc is still at least equivalent to the amped cantrips. So, nothing interesting.
Casters also have lower hit points, no armor and lower saves. So, I don't find a d12 cannon cantrip to be completely out of bounds. And also, TKP has very low range, which is quite a big issue.
As a side note, an amped cantrip is not a cantrip. It's still a certain number of times per day and should in my opinion compete with a Focus Spell. And there's already Fire Ray which is a 2d6 per level Focus Spell + extra critical hit effects.

So, I think that current state of amped TKP is ridiculous and way undertuned. When I speak of a d12, it's not to compete with martials, it's just to be competitive. At a d8 you can just ignore TPK past first levels.

I was wondering when someone would bring up Fire Ray.

I agree completely, although I think it should be amped 2d6 not 1d12. Don't ask me why, cuz I don't know. Just feels better.