Sagiam's page

Alternative title: Are Alchemical Bombs thrown?

Usage a holster or sheath shaped for a one-handed thrown weapon of light Bulk or less

So a item in a shadow sheath needs 4 things to work.

An Alchemical Bomb is a weapon (unlike say a Shield bash or Fist)
It is one-handed.
It is light bulk.

But it doesn't have the thrown trait. It says it is thrown in it's description and it has a range of 20 feet but no trait.

The only reason I think this could go either way on table variation is because the Shadow Sheath doesn't actually ask for the thrown trait, just a "thrown weapon".

What do you all think?

The ship has %100 definitely sailed at this point but, strangely, mechanically, I really think the Exemplar playtest chassis made for a better inventor than the Inventor did.

You have innovations(ikons) you could turn on for a damage boost (like overdrive but no failure chance.) Every couple of turns you could activate a powerful unstable ability that would burn out that Innovation (turning off the overdrive) but automatically turn on a different innovation. And a bunch of feats that would let you customize and upgrade your innovations with new abilities or unstable actions at least while they were "on" and overdriven(Thrown trait on a melee weapon at 4, Reach at 12 etc.)

Witchwarper has no weapon expertise, making it the only class that doesn't increase it's weapons from trained.

a)Paizo never, ever, said that they are replenishing.

I mean Paizo said as much in preview material. That the alchemical science investigator's mechanics worked like the alchemist's, minus advanced alchemy.

... So to clarify, the consensus in this thread is that versatile vials and versatile vials are entirely unrelated concepts that have nothing to do with each other, and that Paizo misled consumers when describing how the methodology works in preview materials.

Sagiam wrote:

You know you can just say you hate the Interrogation Investigator and don't want it in your games. It's ok. We won't judge you.

Throwing out ad homimems just make you look ridiculous.

You're right and I shouldn't have added that sentence. I apologize.

Did you read the ability?

Critical Success wrote:

Whether it answers truthfully or not, you clean something from its body language, and it is off-guard to the Strike you make using Devise a Stratagem against it before the end of your turn.

So, to be clear, if you we're the GM, you'd rule it so your Investigator gave up free action recall knowledges, some of the best healing in the game, or infinite free elixirs and insight coffees... for a strictly worse version of feint?

Also the current premaster version of Pointed Question can't even be used in combat. So if you were to run an Interrogation Investigator right now you'd just the rule their main subclass feature does nothing?

You know you can just say you hate the Interrogation Investigator and don't want it in your games. It's ok. We won't judge you.

If you want to get technical and RAW, the ability goes way harder than just stealing a round – you can basically insta-kill anything that needs to breathe on a success in combination with a wand of choking mist.

I think either way you're in 'what feels appropriate for people at the table' territory.

Well, Wand of Choking Mist is banned in PFS so I think it's the item that's ridiculous in that interaction more than the ability.

The Dual-Weapon Reload feat from the Dual-Weapon Warrior has the wording of the new errata'd Dual-Weapon Reload from the Gunslinger, however it still has the one-action chevron.

You're hyper-fixating on a statblock that isn't even on the page the Investigator tells you to look at. You've clearly made up your mind. I don't know what else to say other than Paizo disagrees with you.

Interrogator Pointed Questions will be Errata'd day 1.

And thank god for that.

Errata on if Alchemical Sciences recharge will hopefully be there too

Sagiam wrote:

shroudb wrote:

i have no clue where you are getting the "replenish ability" from them since that's not part of any statistic in the item block.

Player Core 2 Alchemical Sciences wrote:

Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class.

Do you own the pdf?

If you do, flip it open to page 58. There is a section on that page titled Versatile Vials. Read it.

The argument is that you're referencing the description of the ability, not the statistics of the item.

Sure, but there's nothing else on pg 58 that line could be referring to. You could interpret it that Paizo made a mistake and what they really meant was pg 59 and the sidebar, and that is a perfectly reasonable change for Your Investigator in Your Games. But that interpretation isn't currently Rules As Written and apparently (if Squiggit is to be believed) isn't even how PAIZO is interpreting it.

i have no clue where you are getting the "replenish ability" from them since that's not part of any statistic in the item block.

Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58 of the alchemist class.

Do you own the pdf?

If you do, flip it open to page 58. There is a section on that page titled Versatile Vials. Read it.

Oh there we go

Well this was interesting

These threads show up sometimes. It was email fraud scams last time if I remember correctly. Just flag it as Spam or Illegal Activity and hopefully it will be gone by or before Monday.

No, you got everything wrong (in fact, the FACT that you know that you have no arguments whatsoever shows by you trying to start a flame war instead of giving arguments):

You're the only person here who's getting angry and posting aggressively. Chill.

So to recap.

You have Versatile Vials without the Versatile Vials feature that lists all the rules for Versatile Vials and don't have any feature called Versatile Vials and instead just have items called Versatile Vials that have different rules than the feature Versatile Vials. Which is itself different than the Versatile Vials in the Alchemists archetype which does use the Versatile Vials rules from the Versatile Vials feature except where it doesn't, causing it to work identically to the Investigators Versatile Vials item but they didn't bother to just use the Archetypes Versatile Vials or give the same rules exception in the Investigators Versatile Vials item.

D-did I get that right?

So where do you store them? When you make them, what lvl of type are they?

I mean you can't store your Versatile Vials in your alchemists kit, or always craft your Versatile Vials at your highest type. Those rules are for... Versatile Vials. On pg58.

Do you see where I'm coming from here?

So where do you store them? When you make them, what lvl of type are they?

Those listed under Quick Tincture, which is what gives you the VV except the Statistics which you get from where it tells you to get them.

There isn't any rules for Versatile Vials under Quick Tincture!! By your reading the Investigators VVs don't have rules!

Sagiam wrote:

Trip.H wrote:

Sagiam wrote:

I really hate to invoke the "too good to be true" aphorism, but in this case it seems necessary.

Do you think the same Stingy Paizo would intentionally give the Investigator recharging VVs?

I'm sorry to say, but they are rather consistent on the cross-class stuff granting a small number of per-day uses, not recharging ones.

Then what are the rules for Investigators Versatile Vials? Are the Investigators VVs infused items? Are they destroyed at end of day or can you stockpile them? What lvl and type of Vial do you craft? Where can you store your VVs and how much do they weigh? Are they actually physical objects, and if they are can you duplicate or preserve them?

And most importantly for this discussion, do you get any more back during the day?

All of these questions are answered in that paragraph that starts on p58 which the Investigator tells you look at. You have to ignore a sentence in the middle of that paragraph to say "no" to that last question.

They statistics for them are clearly separated than the Ability.

Investigator gets Quick Tincture, that works with his VV and Alchemist gets Quick Alchemy.

Nothing in Quick Tincture mentions you getting them back, so you don't.

The ONLY reference to Quick Alchemy is "use the statistics of the VVs" which are extremely clearly separated from the Quick Alchemy ability, even if they are structurally in the same section of the book.

If you want them tomorrow regenerate, you have to insert whole paragraphs of ability text that no one said to do (I can bold words too!).

Nobody here has mentioned the Quick Alchemy or Quick Tincture section but you. The rules for getting them back are listed under Versatile Vials which is a completely separate section. So I'll ask again, if you don't use that section for the rules for Investigators Versatile Vials, what are the rules on an Investigators VVs?

Sagiam wrote:

I really hate to invoke the "too good to be true" aphorism, but in this case it seems necessary.

Do you think the same Stingy Paizo would intentionally give the Investigator recharging VVs?

I'm sorry to say, but they are rather consistent on the cross-class stuff granting a small number of per-day uses, not recharging ones.

Then what are the rules for Investigators Versatile Vials? Are the Investigators VVs infused items? Are they destroyed at end of day or can you stockpile them? What lvl and type of Vial do you craft? Where can you store your VVs and how much do they weigh? Are they actually physical objects, and if they are can you duplicate or preserve them?

And most importantly for this discussion, do you get any more back during the day?

All of these questions are answered in that paragraph that starts on p58 which the Investigator tells you look at. You have to ignore a sentence in the middle of that paragraph to say "no" to that last question.

Here, I'll post the rules so you can be the judge yourself.

Versatile Vials

You know how to prepare fast-acting chemicals into
versatile vials, special items that can be used as bombs
and be turned into other alchemical items by introducing
special reagents. During your daily preparations, you
can create a number of versatile vials up to 2 + your
Intelligence modifier, which is also your maximum
number of vials. If you’re below your maximum number,
you can gather reagents from the environment around
you. For every 10 minutes you spend in exploration
mode, you regain 2 vials; this doesn’t prevent you from
participating in other exploration activities.
Versatile vials are infused items, and are destroyed
if not used by the next time you make your daily
preparations. A vial you create is always the highest type
you could Craft. See the sidebar for statistics on using a
versatile vial as a bomb. You can also use vials for Quick
Alchemy (see below) and your research field can add to
the ways you can use a vial.
You can store all your versatile vials within your
alchemist’s toolkit, with no increase to its Bulk. Though
versatile vials are physical objects, they can’t be
duplicated or preserved in any way.

The VV Sidebar that contains the bomb statistics isn't on pg 58, it's on pg 59 but these rules texts start on pg 58 so that's what I'm assuming their referencing.

During your daily preparations, you can create a

number of versatile vials equal to your Intelligence
modifier. Statistics for versatile vials appear on page 58
of the alchemist class.

And for completeness sake the Quick Alchemy Benefits(which the Investigator does not have) from the archetypes

Quick Alchemy Benefits: You gain the Alchemical Crafting feat (Player Core 252) if you don’t already have it.

In addition, you gain the Quick Alchemy action (page 59),
which lets you create short-lived alchemical consumables
with a special action, and you can create a certain number of
versatile vials during your daily preparations to fuel Quick
Alchemy. Unless otherwise noted, you can’t regain versatile vials throughout the day the way alchemists can. The
individual archetype tells you how many versatile vials you
can create each day, and might impose special restrictions or
benefits for how you can use them. If you gain versatile vials
from more than one source, you use the highest number of
vials to determine your maximum rather than adding them
together, but you can use the vials for any Quick Alchemy
option or other use of versatile vials you possess.

No on VV replenishment.

QA does get you infinite QVs, but only work as acid bombs and need quick bomber to be useful.

That's for the Alchemist archetype. Investigator doesn't have QA and doesn't have infinite QVs. They don't have QV's at all. They have Quick Tinctures which is not the same.

To answer the original question though it seems like the Invest does get the 2 VVs back every 10 minutes. That ability is baked into the rules for VVs (it's even in the same paragraph) That's why Quick alchemy benefits has to specifically say you don't get more. Quick Alchemy benefits is the exception, getting more back is the rule.

This seems to be getting a little heated. (Which happens a lot when the Lie action is brought up in threads, now that I think about it)
I think what we can all agree is "Yes, they lose their turn if they Lie... but that's stupid and broken and I won't be having it in my games." Whether that's through houseruling the interaction down or just not answering the way the Action seems to intend.
I'm in the first camp since while forcing to someone to give a binary truth/lie answer seems very strong, I don't think it's stronger than free Insight coffees and Mutagens.

I'll be posting the question in the errata thread. But personally while I think it could use fixing I think the Lie action needs fixing more.

What I notice in here is that it doesn't specify an amount of time needed to form the response by the enemy - in any of the degree of success outcomes. And it doesn't specify using the Lie action either.

So it appears to be similar to Bon Mot in that the response is a custom action. Unfortunately, unlike Bon Mot, it doesn't specify the action cost. So I would assume that it uses a free action to reply - with either a truthful or untruthful response. Which matches the free action for combat banter, and since the ability doesn't say that it costs an enemy any of their actions, then it doesn't.

This is probably how I'll run it until errata comes out. As an aside Bon Mot+Pointed Question looks like it will be a pretty great combo.

Which is to say both sides should approach this in good faith so that the feat works as advertised w/o eliminating an enemy like some Legendary skill feat might.

This is the way, I think. Work with your GM about expectations, as forcing someone to answer truthfully or attempt to lie (even assuming those are both free actions) is already incredibly strong as a non-magical effect.

So, "I ain't telling you jack" is a valid thing for the NPC to do... if you get a failure. Because that is unambiguously a refusal to answer. If you succeed, the creature must answer directly; that is the point of this action. Between accepting that a character option has an unintended side-effect and expecting us to collectively degrade our own grasp of the English language just to avoid facing the facts, I'd rather choose the former.

Yeah, Pointed Question is kinda unique in PF2. It's as close to mind control as a non-magical effect can get in this edition. Most skill and non-magical class effects aren't like this; Antagonize doesn't force anyone to attack you it just applies penalties if they don't.

if I had to worry about PCs bypassing a mystery I had set up

well, this part hasn't really changed much. That's just kinda the Investigators wheelhouse. Before the interrogation was just happening after the fight

If you missed it, Pointed Question from the Interrogation methodology of the Investigator can now be used in combat as of Player Core 2. It couldn't before because of the "have been conversing with" clause, but that's gone now and it even gives the off-guard penalty on your next devise a stratagem against the target if you succeed.

That's cute, but you know what's better...

Lie

Auditory Concentrate Linguistic Mental Secret
You try to fool someone with an untruth. Doing so takes at least 1 round, or longer if the lie is elaborate. You roll a single Deception check and compare it against the Perception DC of every creature you are trying to fool. The GM might give them a circumstance bonus based on the situation and the nature of the lie you are trying to tell. Elaborate or highly unbelievable lies are much harder to get a creature to believe than simpler and more believable lies, and some lies are so big that it's impossible to get anyone to believe them.

At the GM's discretion, if a creature initially believes your lie, it might attempt a Perception check later to Sense Motive against your Deception DC to realize it's a lie. This usually happens if the creature discovers enough evidence to counter your statements.

Success The target believes your lie.
Failure The target doesn't believe your lie and gains a +4 circumstance bonus against your attempts to Lie for the duration of your conversation. The target is also more likely to be suspicious of you in the future.

So, if you succeed on Pointed Question they are forced to directly answer your question. If the goon you're wailing on wants to truthfully answer your question about the whereabouts of the kidnapped little girl, Great! That's a free action. However if they try to lie to you they lose their turn to do so.

RaptorJesues wrote:

seems like dueling dance has been removed? I guess thats incentive to use a buckler but still, feels pretty weird

The free-hand riposte feat now gives you panache when the enemy misses you in addition to the normal benefits, so Dueling Dance would be a meaningful increase in power if it applied to that as well. It seems like they're trying to encourage bucklers being more defensive, with free-hand being more offensive.

Elegant buckler also gives panache when someone critically misses you.

They squished dueling parry and twin parry together into a 1st lvl Extravagant Parry feat, which is really great because before there wasn't a good reason to play with two weapons at first. (Ranger and Fighter get the twin defensive feats 2 lvls later because they start with Double slice or Twin Takedown but Dual Finisher is lvl 8)
But now there isn't a lvl 10 dueling dance or twinned defense style feat anymore, but there is Buckler Dance, which still doesn't work with Parry and Riposte.
I dunno. It still just feels like the Swashbuckler is a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces don't quite fit.

I never saw it played, but during the Exemplar playtest, I discovered something that could do 10000+d6 damage at level 17.

It involves a bag of rats.

Here's a crazy, innovative idea. The Commander should have a Stance feat at level 4 that adds a +1 to them and their allies attack and mental saves in their aura and another stance feat at level 4 that adds to damage.

...

Yeah, I know, but if were going to be seeing thousands of Commander/Marshals anyways, it would be nice to burn the word count on reprinting what everyone's going for into the class itself, so that way you can take other archetypes without being locked in.

And it's not like Paizo is any stranger to ripping feats and dedications out of archetypes and giving them to base classes before. They did it Three times With the Thaumaturge!

Now that Firebrands is out I can finally talk about my favorite new absurdity: the Shield Pistol!

While an Item can't have more than one weapon attached to it, you can attach a weapon to another attached weapon as long as it's the appropriate type. So you can attach a bayonet to a shield pistol, that's attached to a meteor shield that you can throw at an enemy. Take Bastion archetype and Nimble shield hand and you can dual wield thrown-shield-gun-knifes!!!

Thrower's Bandolier works with any one-handed weapon with the thrown trait. Dagger Pistols are a one-handed weapon with the thrown trait. And at light bulk you can have up to 20 of them loaded into your bandolier. Quick Draw allows you to do the archetypical draw and fire style everyone thinks Gunner's Bandolier should do.

Slinger's reflexes doesn't work with Fake Out*. Slinger's reflexes only gives you an extra reaction on enemy's turns not allies.

*You could use it on an allies attack during an enemy's turn, like say from Attack of Opportunity. Still pretty situational.

While I'm on it, Hit the dirt leaves you prone and thus unable to take move actions, which Hit the dirt is. And almost all the other gunslinger reactions require a loaded gun, which you can't reload in between turns. Meaning that the only reaction that Slinger's Reload works more than once a round with is Instant Return.

And because it specifies Gunslinger reactions you can't use it with reactions from an archetype like a Champions reaction.

Drifters don't need Dual-weapon Reload. With reloading strike they can reload even on a critical miss, and if an enemy isn't within range they can "make a strike against an invisible enemy I suspect is within an adjacent square," aka swing into empty air and reload.

Your example on Capacity is wrong. It takes an action to switch to a new barrel. So you could not shoot three times in a round.

A Shoony Investigator with his albino Goblin Barbarian companion.

Not at all.

Oh yeah, that discussion. Well, unlike before, we now have another example:

Your spell becomes volatile and explosive. If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell that deals damage to a single target and the spell successfully damages that target, the spell explodes, dealing splash damage equal to the level of the spell cast to adjacent creatures. Unlike normally, this splash damage doesn't apply to the target. The splash damage dealt is of the same type the spell deals.

So it does really seem Splash is meant to inherently damage adjacent creatures. (and to the primary target although this calls that out as an exception.)

Hilariously enough, while you can't use the gunners bandolier as an action fix, you can put dagger or cane pistols into the Throwers bandolier and then Quickdraw them.

I see them as "Meat points". Primarily because there's also the issue of environmental damage. Sure you can describe damage from dragons breath or fireballs as "near misses", but what happens when the barbarian or fighter needs to pull a Grog and swim through a river of acid? Or they go through an unmitigated free fall 100 feet onto solid stone and walk it off.

And yes, this means on some level (and at some Level) everyone in the party is going to be superhuman. I understand some people have an issue with that, but personally I'm okay with it. I feel pure mundanity goes out the window when the barbarian can grow 20 feet tall and stomp an earthquake into existence.

Amazingly, the Ranger gets no inherent bonus for tracking (only your Prey if it runs away...and how often does that happen?). Find some tracks in the wood? A Cleric with the same proficiency in Survival is going to be better at initial tracking. A Druid, Cleric, or even Rogue with equal Wisdom can make your Ranger's primary skills redundant.

The reality is that Ranger is good at Nature and Survival simply because you start with those skills Trained. Any class with the same Wisdom and Skill Increases can be just as good. Doesn't it seem odd that the Ranger who is suppose to "hunt prey" is no better at initially locating tracks than any other class? I mean really?

Ummm... No? You can use the Hunt Prey Action while tracking something giving you a +2 bonus over those other classes. And then when you catch up to it, you start with it hunted, meaning you don't have to spend an action to hunt prey. A GM that is only letting you hunt prey in combat is like a GM not letting an Investigator Pursue A Lead. Of course it's going to be less effective and feel off.

You designate a single creature as your prey and focus your attacks against that creature. You must be able to see or hear the prey, or you must be tracking the prey during exploration.

You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks when you Seek your prey and a +2 circumstance bonus to Survival checks when you Track your prey. You also ignore the penalty for making ranged attacks within your second range increment against the prey you’re hunting.

You can have only one creature designated as your prey at a time. If you use Hunt Prey against a creature when you already have a creature designated, the prior creature loses the designation and the new prey gains the designation. Your designation lasts until your next daily preparations.

3) Even more complicated, the bow gantlet from TV has parry. I assume you can't use the parry trait while the gantlet is holding something, but I can't find that written as a rule

You can only Parry while wielding the weapon, which you aren't doing if you are holding something in that hand.

This weapon doesn't take up your hand, usually because it is built into your armor. A free-hand weapon can't be Disarmed. You can use the hand covered by your free-hand weapon to wield other items, perform manipulate actions, and so on. You can't attack with a free-hand weapon if you're wielding anything in that hand or otherwise using that hand. When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand. Each of your hands can have only one free-hand weapon on it.

You can't attack with a free-hand weapon while it's occupied but it doesn't say anything about you not wielding it.

Nothing to really to add to the validity (or lack there of) of the build, but it does remind me of a comment I read about the Demon Summoner. Because the Demon Eidolon's demonic strikes lets you have Versatile in any type of physical damage, choose bleed, because bleeds a type of physical damage.

When I first saw it I kinda just dismissed it, because at the time I just thought Versatile was for bludgeoning, piercing, slashing... obviously. Then King of the Mountain came out with a feat that gives Versatile Positive so what do I know.

Themetricsystem wrote:

Wait... is the Brewer's Regret just the Golarian version of Malört?

I think it is meant to be Marmite

It's Marmite or Vegemite. And the description for the effect is absolutely hilarious.

"it also creates a strong desire to live to taste anything else."

So, going ALL the way back to the OP's original statement. I can't remember the name of it right now but isn't there canonically a magical super artifact book that literally lists all the crappy, messed up stuff the good gods and forces of good have had to do, in the name of a better tomorrow? One that would magically break the faith of any good reader?

Edit: Found it! The Apocrypha to the Chronicle of the Righteous.

Backpack Catapult has the Volley trait but doesn't list a distance for it, so currently the volley trait is non-functional for it.

Whoops. See, this is what I get for posting late at night. The AoN doesn't have the range listed but the GnG pdf does list "Volley 50 ft".

Backpack Catapult has the Volley trait but doesn't list a distance for it, so currently the volley trait is non-functional for it.