Kalaam's page

I mean that's basically making every spell 1 action with flourish on the magus only.
And Spellstrike only does that kind of insane damage with spell slots, not cantrips but that's another discussion.

I think that having Spell Combat as an alternative way to use Spellstrike (basically decoupling the spell and strike and deferring the 3rd action to a later recharge) is the simplest way to do it without risking unbalance.

That's true, the more recents ones actually do that already.
They could all give you the benefits of a skill feat while in Arcane Cascade like Aloof giving you cat fall as base and Quick Jump while in arcane cascade.

I'll work on that and update later

I'm thinking of adding a level 4 or 6 feats that allows it with battle medicine if you have it.

There's a few Dex actions like Dirty Trick but again, gated behind a skill feat. Maybe Laughing Shadow could give it to you for free though ? It does have the attack trait after all.

That would kind of be too good within the way pf2e works.

Even in 1e using spell combat took away your ability to move that turn. But that's something everyone can do now (attack and cast a spell)

I know that what I am hoping for in the remaster of Magus is:

1. Support for an Enhancer style, where the spells cast as part of a Spellstrike require neither a saving throw nor attack roll. Allow someone to cast Resist Energy or Haste as part of a Spellstrike,
2. Spontaneous caster for Magus.
3. Ability to choose the tradition (so you could have one using primal, divine, or occult spells).

I also hope the Arcane Stance is better worded. The current errata wording is clumsy.

Yeah on that first one I hope they basically reimplement Spell Combat as an optional way to spend your spellstrike charge, that's what I did in my homebrew

Eldritch scion would be a perfect way to do the 2 and 3 in one go

Kalaam wrote:

exequiel759 wrote:

I might say I'm not the biggest fan of your implementation of magus maneuvers. I get that the idea is that they are all MAP actions to avoid magus maneuver + spellstrike every round (which I don't really think would be as bad people think it is, but anyways), but the fact that all of them are Athletics actions is pretty much forcing the magus to both become trained in Athletics and max out Athletics ASAP too.

Also, starlit span not having one is IMO bad. I get the rationale (its explained right there) but I feel its wrong for just one subclass to not have a magus maneuver with all the others have one. If it was a class archetype I get it since those break the rules, but starlit span isn't.

I personaly would either steal the swashbuckler's homebrew and make it so each hybrid study makes you trained in one skill and allows for one of their actions to recharge your spellstrike (like laughing shadow making you trained in Deception and allowing you to recharge with a feint).

I went back and forth on which maneuvers to choose. Some feat (or feat templates) I've added are meant to help achieving those maneuvers more efficiently or easily (as would certain archetype feats). Crosscurrent Counter for example gives you such an opportunity, etc.

I just ended up tired to write all the possible feats, as it was starting to go beyond the original scope.
This is also why certain feats let you use Spell Attack instead of athletics.

I had used a few acrobatic maneuvers as well, but then got told stuff like Tumble Through was just too good because it's a MAPless action you could do every turn (provided you have enough enemies, now that I think back on it, maybe should put it back the way it was, it is once per enemy after all)

For your example, I was tempted to put feint on laughing shadow. And decided to go with disarm since it also kind of fitted with the whole one handed thing, but maybe I should swap it to feint.

As for Starlit Span, yeah, I just

...

At first I had given 2 actions for each subclass to give more identity yeah.

I might say I'm not the biggest fan of your implementation of magus maneuvers. I get that the idea is that they are all MAP actions to avoid magus maneuver + spellstrike every round (which I don't really think would be as bad people think it is, but anyways), but the fact that all of them are Athletics actions is pretty much forcing the magus to both become trained in Athletics and max out Athletics ASAP too.

Also, starlit span not having one is IMO bad. I get the rationale (its explained right there) but I feel its wrong for just one subclass to not have a magus maneuver with all the others have one. If it was a class archetype I get it since those break the rules, but starlit span isn't.

I personaly would either steal the swashbuckler's homebrew and make it so each hybrid study makes you trained in one skill and allows for one of their actions to recharge your spellstrike (like laughing shadow making you trained in Deception and allowing you to recharge with a feint).

I went back and forth on which maneuvers to choose. Some feat (or feat templates) I've added are meant to help achieving those maneuvers more efficiently or easily (as would certain archetype feats). Crosscurrent Counter for example gives you such an opportunity, etc.

I had used a few acrobatic maneuvers as well, but then got told stuff like Tumble Through was just too good because it's a MAPless action you could do every turn (provided you have enough enemies, now that I think back on it, maybe should put it back the way it was, it is once per enemy after all)

For your example, I was tempted to put feint on laughing shadow. And decided to go with disarm since it also kind of fitted with the whole one handed thing, but maybe I should swap it to feint.

As for Starlit Span, yeah, I just drew a blank. Hiding feels a bit out context, Search is too situational, maybe Recall Knowledge ?

I'm glad you enjoyed it ! Hopefully actual play will give some interresting insight :)

Thanks !

That kind of thing really is the linchpin I hope we see in the actual remaster. Just this would do so much to make the class flow better and feel more complete and less "one trick pony"

I already added tweaks based on feedbacks lol (like moving Tumble Through as possible recharge maneuvers to a later level feat 'cause it being a mapless action is kind of too good) But anyway, enjoy !

That is very fair, and it is absolutely not my intent.
The whole project was just a design experiment and a study of sorts. I won't pretend to be a better designer than the ones actually working on the book. But if I can have ideas that are interresting to share, I'm happy to :D

Hope everyone will follow your advice and stay rude and give fair reads to each other's ideas and opinions. (some sure aren't on the subreddit's post I made >.>)

Well a tad late but had to finish writing it up properly. So if talking about what we hope to see, I more or less made a whole document about what I hope the magus rework will be like. I posted it in homebrew sections, and I'm not sure if I should link the doc or the post. So i'll start by the post itself in order for discussions about it to not pollute THIS discussion.

Here it is.

If I should delete this message, I will.

Puns aside, welcome !

Given that the remaster of the Magus got confirmed and given a date within the Impossible Magics book (which I am now doubly excited for given Runesmith is there to begin with) I figured it was time for me to actually finish putting together my own "remaster" attempt on the magus.

Right here you'll find the link to the document itself - Magus Remagusterized

Now some rundown of the intent behind the changes, along with the reasonning and a few of the features:

• Initial intent is to make a fully functional and strong class that doesn't feel a need to grab multiclass abilities to circumvent the limitations it is designed with (yes, I am looking at Imaginary Weapon and other focus spells like Fire Ray being pilfered to use with Spellstrike. I'll explain my reasons in detail later)

• Give more uses to Arcane Cascade, making it much more worthwhile to enter by unlocking more useful actions that can be part of your rotations and gameplans. Be it techniques inspired by other martials or ones more unique to the Magus.

• Tweaking certain feats and subclasses, mainly Inexorable Iron by altering certain existing features of the class.

• An experimental change for Spellstrike to have better synergy with save spells.

• SPELL COMBAT IS BACK

• Probably plenty of typos and formatting errors

Based on feedback and new ideas I'll probably add in some more feats and such, which will update automatically when I do.

I hope you enjoy the read !

Rename Summoner as Invoker then ahah

Suddenly, Square Enix legal team is what is being summoned

Kalaam wrote:

Now to see if our predictions will be as accurate, or completely off the mark !

We're all gonna look real silly when the remastered magus turns out to have gone back to its etymological roots and is a divine caster now.

Magus is now a Rare tagged class because it automatically make you divine right royalty.

Now to see if our predictions will be as accurate, or completely off the mark !

Kalaam wrote:

Arcane Cascade would feel better if the class had more attack options capitalizing on it, as it is right now you have spellstrike, normal strikes, and the ones including in your subclass' conflux spell. Otherwise you've got to look at archetypes.

Getting more feats like Cascading Ray etc that are unique attacks making use of Arcane Cascade would be great. Say "Cascading Splash" just a 2 action (or 1 action flourish whatever) strike that deals weapon dice*cascade bonus of elemental splash damage that you're immune to.

A spellstrike-less magus is certainly something I would like to see myself, but I wouldn't get my hopes up because PF2e usually designs classes around their gimmick and its not like they are going to give the class a second gimmick in the case someone doesn't want to spellstrike.

Like AestheticDialectic said, if spellstrike was replaced with a feature similar to 1e's spell combat, allowing you to cast any spell + a Strike would be enough for a "spellstrike-less" magus that self-buffs and jumps in the fray, but I feel that's too drastic of a change and I feel Paizo doesn't want to shake up the class that much, specially when it mostly works as is and only needs polishing. I could see feats tackling that playstyle though, but likely high level ones.

I don't think it'd be too difficult really. here's an idea:

Spell Combat, probably as feat upgrade or replacement of Expansive Spellstrike.
You expand your spellstrike charge and with 2 actions you make a strike and cast a spell in any order, both are decoupled from each other and the spell is cast normally, just weaved along the strike in the motions to cast. So you could cast your fireball on the group of mooks over there while hitting the boss, or you could cast blur as you fight. or that heal spell you got from an archetype on your wizard behind you.
If your action is disrupted, you lose both the spell and attack. If your critically miss the strike you fail the spell (even if the spell was technically cast first maybe, that part can be debated)

Still need to recharge of course, but just like that you got Spell Combat in 2e using the existing gimmick and without needing to deeply redesign the class.

The book comes out in like eight months! Consider this a teaser trailer, same as that Marvel spot that was just Chris Evans holding a baby.

"Seltyiel will Return"

"And this time he WILL get his hot demon twink"

Arcane Cascade would feel better if the class had more attack options capitalizing on it, as it is right now you have spellstrike, normal strikes, and the ones including in your subclass' conflux spell. Otherwise you've got to look at archetypes.

Getting more feats like Cascading Ray etc that are unique attacks making use of Arcane Cascade would be great. Say "Cascading Splash" just a 2 action (or 1 action flourish whatever) strike that deals weapon dice*cascade bonus of elemental splash damage that you're immune to.

I also hope we do get a bunch of new attack spells that have interresting effects that are more than straight damage. Threefold Limb and Sticky Fire are 2 that I really like for that reason. And focus ones like Fire Ray or Winter Bolt are exactly what i'd like to see as proper spells.

Also wonder what the whole "spells that'll leave your soul scarred from using them" deal is. I kind of hope it's actually busted spells that inflict you with a difficult to remove Doomed condition, the kind that needs a specific ritual or loads of downtime to get rid of but in exchange it IS actually quite busted. The kind of spells that normally have the incapacitation trait...but will not have it.

This is pretty much what I'm working on and suggesting. Taking a page out of swashbuckler/gunslinger books (pun intended) and refining stuff started by Magus Analysis to recharge with skill actions related to your subclass, with feats to pick a few more.

The other stuff I really hope is to see more gish abilities in feats, similarly to other martials special weapon strikes and all, let the magus have a few of its own either inspired by other martials with a magical flavor and/or a few things unique to its blend of weapons and magic, probably tie it to arcane cascade.

For example:

Riving Strike. 2 action flourish.
In arcane cascade, make a strike, on a hit the target suffers a -1 status penalty to its next saving throw against a spell effect, or until the end of your next turn. (-2 on a crit)

A special way to synergize with the spellcasters on your team, or setup your next turn casting a spell or a spellstrike with a saving throw (double dip by making a saving throw spellstrike inflict a circumstance penalty to the save maybe ?)

Or other stuff inspired by Cascading Ray, it's a very flavorful and nice feat and more Cascading attacks would be super cool to see !

This is fair.

Now for other stuff I hope to see in that book:

Runes for attack spells for spellcasters, come on i'm sure this can be balanced especially now that you can't spam Sure Strike !

Eldritch Scion as a class archetype for Magus would be super cool to see come back.

Kalaam wrote:

The current design issue is that the class is designed around having few spell slots and squeezing as much value out of them as possible.

You have a couple of them locked to low level utility spells (Studious Slots) and 4 you are meant to juggle between ammo for Spellstrike or other high rank options (buffs, control, aoe etc).

Most Spellstrike related feats are focused on getting extra value out of your spell slots specifically even calling out that cantrips AND focus spells don't work with those feats.
It can be stuff like resistance piercing, splash damage, adding an extra action (leap, feint), reach, dispelling magical effects, or applying a 1 round buff to yourself.

The quality of those feats can be discussed and a lot would benefit from being reworked or buffed, which I hope the remaster does.

I think the issue here is that while this is certainly the intended design, this is also a design a lot of players have outright rejected. Beyond the Magus, a lot of players complain about the limited nature of spell slots even on full casters that have lots of them, and many players simply do not want to spend a limited per-day resource to maximize the damage on their signature activity, especially when that activity can miss and do nothing much more often than a save spell. We can talk about how the original design can work on paper, how Spellstriking with slot or even focus spells is overkill in many cases, how the loop could be improved (and your proposals would improve the Magus's gameplay significantly), and so on, but the fact remains that a lot of players prefer to Spellstrike for close to maximum damage without having to spend a limited resource, and are even willing to commit a substantial part of their build towards that. I agree that a single Spellstrike focus spell by itself would be fairly one-note, but compared to current imaginary weapon overuse, I don't think it would be that much of a reduction, if any at all depending on the implementation.

The frustration a lot of people feel about spell slot limitation is a good point.

I still believe just adding a Focus Spell for spellstrike into the base class wouldn't solve anything, it would just make the class even more one note.

The current design issue is that the class is designed around having few spell slots and squeezing as much value out of them as possible.
You have a couple of them locked to low level utility spells (Studious Slots) and 4 you are meant to juggle between ammo for Spellstrike or other high rank options (buffs, control, aoe etc).

Most Spellstrike related feats are focused on getting extra value out of your spell slots specifically even calling out that cantrips AND focus spells don't work with those feats.
It can be stuff like resistance piercing, splash damage, adding an extra action (leap, feint), reach, dispelling magical effects, or applying a 1 round buff to yourself.

The quality of those feats can be discussed and a lot would benefit from being reworked or buffed, which I hope the remaster does.

Other feats are about circumventing your slot limitations:
Striker's Scroll lets you use scrolls for spellstrikes with 2 handed weapons, which might be more useful if spells not used for direct damage (say debuff spells) benefited more easily from being used in spellstrike (penalty to the save on hit for example).

Fused Staff does the same, giving a few extra spells a day potentially, though with the Swap action and all this feat would also benefit from the rework, but the intent remains: giving you more spells to either spellstrike with or cast normally without wasting your slots.

Standby Spell lets you pick one spell for spellstrike that essentially becomes a spontaneous spell you can cast spending any prepared spell slot, giving you more flexibility in your spell preparation.

The class' CAPSTONE ability is about virtually doubling your amount of slots when used on spellstrike, letting you reuse the last one you expended within the next minute.

Now, grabbing a focus spell from another class (or shoving one in as either a base feature or a feat which would instantly become a must pick) does solve all those limitations, yes. That's why its so good and everyone on reddit and here keep saying you SHOULD do it. (and then say it's not THAT good, using force fang after a cantrip spellstrike is just as good.)

But the problem is that it solves the issue by ignoring the class' design, essentially. It doesn't solve the issue it flat out ignores it.
It's a surface level fix, not a design fix.

Because, if the remaster were to implement changes to the class to better its flow etc, this will just keep making focus spellstriking better and ahead.
Let me explain with examples:

• 1: More tools to recharge spellstrike are implemented. Such as more abilities similar to magus analysis, recharging on a successful skill action against an enemy. Recharging on a successful trip, tumble through, disarm, demoralize etc. Say 2 actions getting the "conflux" trait for that based on your subclass (taking a page out of swashbuckler's book). It's great, gives you more options that still feed your overall loop even when you're out of focus points especially at low level.

  But then this means you can even more easily use focus spells for spellstrike without worrying about needing it for recharging swiftly with your conflux spells.

• 2: Extra spell slots dedicated to spellstriking (Striking Slots, think of Curriculum slots or Font slots). It gives you a bit of breathing room with your spell selection. That's convenient and useful.

  But then again, the focus spellstrike is still an infinite renewable ressource and now you just have an easier way to choose not to use it, use a Striking Slot and then a conflux spell when needed, and the Focus Spellstrike when you don't need to move etc.

• 3: Bit of an odd one, but if it's added to the base class it's just more power without real cost. At least when picking from another class with an archetype it locks you into it for a few levels if you want to pick another one for other benefits (unless you pick champion 'cause then you can get Fire Ray, heavy armor, and champion reaction all in one). if it's a base feature, sure you won't need to pick another archetype for one, but this just makes it easier to grab other archetypes for benefits like heavy armor etc.
  ...or you can just pick Psychic still to get more focus points and another spellstrike focus spell option that deal another damage type.
  

So it really wouldn't solve the issue at all to just have it at base.

I personnaly think removing this interraction is for the best, and redistribute that power (for example unify the spellstrike/slot related feats more. Full effect one casting from a ranked spell (spellslot, staff, wand, scroll) and half of the effect on a cantrip. The way Cascading Ray works. So things like Sustaining Steel giving only the spellrank back as HP on cantrip, double on ranked spell. (or have it be a fast healing like I'm writing in my rework but well, I have yet to finish writing all the feats give me time))

This was a big ramble but I hope it clarified my position.

I have high expectation for the reworked Magus. Please, please have the guts to address the issue of Focus Spellstrikes sidestepping the class' design and fix it, don't just give it an baked in focus spell made to be spellstriked.

Also I should finish and post my own remaster version before then uh

Unicore highlights an important point there. Psychic Dedication was originally balanced for focus spells pre-remaster. Where until level 12 any character other than a psychic could only cast their focus spell once per fight or end up with 1 less point in their pool for the rest of the day, then stuck at 1 if they did it again. You had to carefully choose not to overspend them.

That's kind of why I suggested a limitation like inflicting Stupefied for a round after using an amp from the archetype for non-true psychics (plus it brings in some of the actual class' flavor). Or limiting it with a cool down, or both.

But on the general discourse that's been going on:

I see a lot essentially argue "well there's plenty of feat types that have best in slots ones. What about them." or "It's not that psychic is OP, it's that the other options suck".

To that, a few clarifications.

First, yes. General feats as brought up earlier are a clear example of some feats being must picks while the rest is meh at best.
Lots of level 2 feats (especially for casters) and dedication feats (again, especially from casters) aren't that interessting or good. So by comparison Psychic is just too good.

But we're discussing Psychic because it's going to be remastered soon. So it's relevant to talk about IT now. That other types of feats have issues being too good (or not having any better options) is irrelevant.
Aka: yes, fire is dangerous and plenty of houses burn down every year. But we're busy dealing with a flood and discussing how to manage that problem. So your fire point is irrelevant.

Second, about it not being OP but just the rest being so bad that the one good option is too appealing.... yes that's what overpowered mean. It's better than the other options.
Now, it COULD be that it's just "good" while the rest is awful. But I believe there can be a middle point between "trash feats" and "must pick". Ya know ?
Psychic Dedication should be reeled in, while other stuff should get buffed. But again, other stuff being buffed isn't in the scope of a discussion about Psychic Dedication getting reworked in Dark Archives Remastered.
That'll either be in future erratas, or have to wait for PF3E.

Yeah, I think Magus' focus spells are better used as their complimentary spells they can rely on during every fight.

Kalaam wrote:

So basically having spellstrike be limited to 3 times per encounter tops ?

It was just a thought and I threw it out there.

Not a well thought out one lol.

Maybe but that's a legitimate idea. It'd require rethinking conflux spells though but I'm sure it must have been considered at some point.

So basically having spellstrike be limited to 3 times per encounter tops ?

Kalaam wrote:

Honestly if spellstrikes with Basic Saves spells just worked the way of Channel Smite that could ease a lot of the pain. Wouldn't work with Slow, Enfeeble, Paralyze etc. But it would with Lightning Bolt, Breathe Fire, Chain Lighnting, Fireball, etc.

And also daze, flourishing flora, arrow salvo, rainbow fumarole, and other spells with a crowd control or debuff rider tacked onto their basic save. As much as I'd like Spellstrike's attack roll to key onto basic save results, the problem in my opinion is that basic saves don't always just tie into damage as the mechanic would suggest, and the Magus could end up applying some pretty nasty bits of crowd control more reliably than they should.

True, through it'd be locked to single target. It's hard to find a clear answer. Maybe as an additional note like for Ancillary Effects etc ?

Honestly if spellstrikes with Basic Saves spells just worked the way of Channel Smite that could ease a lot of the pain. Wouldn't work with Slow, Enfeeble, Paralyze etc. But it would with Lightning Bolt, Breathe Fire, Chain Lighnting, Fireball, etc.

My personal fix for Psychic Dedication would simply be to have the dedication grant the two psi cantrips from the chosen Conscious Mind with the improvements, but with no amp or focus point.

Then, Basic Psychic Spellcasting can give the surface psi cantrip from that conscious mind (much like Basic Witch Spellcasting gives an extra familiar ability).

Finally, Psi Development (the 6th level feat) is changed to give you a focus point and amp for one psi cantrip that you know, and can be taken multiple times.

The whole situation with Magus will hopefully be fixed by them making changes to the Magus rather than to psi cantrips and amps. Otherwise, people will just archetype into Cleric for Fire Ray or Druid for Stone Lance instead. I'm hoping in the remaster of Secrets of Magic that along with the implementation of the recent change to Spellstrike that allows a Magus to use it with single-target save spells, they also alter it so that it can't be used with Focus spells full stop.

Of course the Magus might need a little bit of love if they were to make this change. My suggestion would be to just add two more slots of each rank to their bounded spellcasting, but require those slots to have single-target damaging spells with an attack roll or basic save prepared in them. If they take Expansive Spellstrike, maybe have a later feat that follows on from that which would allow them to prepare area damage spells with a basic save in those slots instead.

It's funny, I had the same idea of Striking Spells Slots. Though I'd also want extra focus spells to benefit the class, so I'd honestly advocate to make them recharge spellstrike as well. Less action efficient than conflux spells, but still very useful.

I’m fine with nixing focus spells on spellstrikes as long as magus gets some sort of bank of spellstrike spells, like cleric gets heals. Pair that with some way to effectively use saving throw spells with spellstrike (i.e. malus to save if you hit them) and that’s both fair compensation for the lost power (to keep magus on equal ground with other martial classes) and a much more interesting to build and play magus that doesn’t have to poach focus spells off dedications.

That's actually my plan. So far i'm thinking of 2 slots of your highest rank

In that respect maybe Cascading Energy has more room in its power budget.

Not too much room but some.

Maybe it could add xd4 of damage for the round it's cast on ? Like 1 extra dice per point of damage arcane cascade normaly grant. That'd be +1d4 from level 1 to 7. 2d4 from 7 to 13 and then 3d4 from 13 to 20.

The hardest part really is formatting everything on scribepf2 ahah. But I want to do it soon. Once it's done I'll post it here as well.

But that'll include nixing the focus spell spellstrike, sadly. But I've got compensations in mind for that

Yes it's not an easy fix by any stretch of the imagination. Through our talks on those forums and in the community i've built up my own idea of what a rework would be, without compromising the core identity I think.
But it DOES rely on Paizo printing more spell attack spells. Or having a DM who accept homebrew ones that are balanced (like turning certain focus spells into ranked ones).

But it all hinges on cutting that synergy that is so good that it starves the class. Giving it it's own focus spell for spellstriking alleviates it a bit until a deeper fix though, that much is very fair.

I really should put together that document shouldn't I

I know the idea is to avoid the ubiquity of taking psychic (or cleric/champion if you're feeling fancy) for infinite high damage spellstrikes, but it feels like it's just moving the problem elswhere without really fixing it. Instead of psychic being the must have level 2 feat on magus (and then level 6) it's one specific magus feat that is just way too good not to be taken.

Using it also makes a bunch of other feats and features irrelevant (all the feats requiring to use a spell slot on spellstrike, the Double Spellstrike class feature...) and this feels like putting two designs at odds of each other.
Is the Magus:

1) A fighter using spellstrike with cantrips and their biggest burst being a renewable focus spell. Their limited slots being meant for support and utility, and occasionally being spellstriked with to manipulate their range or fit into a turn ?

2) A combattant using its focus spells to enhance its action economy and fighting prowess with situational buffs (outside of Force Fang ALL the conflux spells from feats are buffs), spellstriking with cantrips and deriving additional value out of spending spell slots on spellstrikes through its feats. (most feats needing to spend a spell slot are about squeezing more value out of them. See Sustaining Steel etc)

It can't really be both. 'cause in the 2nd case (which, as written, is the intended design) you end up entirely ignoring its limitations and several mechanics the moment you mainly rely on focus spells for spellstrikes. It WORKS of course, and it's powerful. But it makes a lot of its feats even less valuable because they don't work with the two main ways you'll spellstrike (cantrip and focus spells)

Turning it into 1) would require reworking the whole class around that premise, which kind of feels like Spellstrike is just a focus spell in itself rather than a technique of merging martial weaponry and magic spells.

I believe it'd be designing the class into a pigeonhole, and might be the reason the class never got an Attack focus spell so far. I think it *could* get one, serving as a filler ranged attack when you need one, but not one as good as spending a spell slot. Probably would be easier to implement without the risk of the trappings of spellstriking every focus spell.

Though one of the big reasons why focus spells are so attractive for that is simply the lack of Attack spells, which you underlined very clearly. Though we got a few back in Battlecry! quite a few are still in the focus spell category and it'd be a huge benefit to have more of them as proper spells. But since attack spells are unattractive to most caster players (despite them being actually good when you know how to use them) it might feel like designing them for Magus only. maybe if there was something added for normal casters to more easily make use of Attack spells it'd feel less like an issue to add more of them. (Potency runes on staves applying to attack spells, or other unique magic items that give you an item bonus to spell attack in certain circumstances...or just people remembering Shadow Signet exists)

I do quite like the "enter cascade for a focus point that also recharge spellstrike" idea. Could be a base focus spell that all Magi start with even with 2 focus points honestly wouldn't be too bad.

You know it's weird 'cause unless linked directly to a thread, the homebrew section just appears empty to me. I should also write down my own stuff there sometime

But regarding psychic specifically, yes I aggree.

Fire Ray is the second "offender" 'cause one archetype can grant it fairly easily and all. But yes spellstrike is the part that needs one line to fix this

Yeah if there was no amp magus would still take it often but it wouldn't break its design. It'd be like taking cleric for divine lance to get a decent spirit damage cantrip.

Without the Amp Imaginary Weapon is just a very cool and flavorful strong cantrip. It's good, but Gouging Claw will usually outdamage it. It has the benefit of covering a damage type that gouging claw doesn't have (bludgeoning) so it's a very nice addition to have but wouldn't feel "mandatory" the way it does now.

I still think that for Magus' issue specifically removing that focus spell interraction in order to add more things elswhere in the base chassis and into better feats would be healthier in the long run.

And off course: adding more attack roll spells in general would be nice, main issue is that Magus is the only one who bothers using them (from the perception of the community, even if its false)

I mean True Strike got a big nerf (which imo was warranted and opens up room for more strong stuff to be added within spells) so that kind of change is totally possible. But can only be done alongside a full rework of Magus. Not as a simple errata. The most that could be done in an errata is removing that compatibility and adding a line about conflux spells that any focus spells recharge spellstrike, as compensation. But well, getting out of topic. (I really should write that full "remaster" version on pftools or something

It's kind of an issue when several (but not all generally) are just better to take than your own feats at those levels. It should be an interresting *option* to invest into if it fits your playstyle, not a straight up better choice 9 times out of 10.

QuidEst wrote:

My takeaway is that Psychic Dedication needs to give Timber Sentinel.

Only if we can Amp it. ;)

Amped Timber Sentinel gets a free spell attack roll on the attacker each time it survives damage, deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage per spell rank. No MAP.

Blessed One is an interesting counter-example.

Psychic Dedication is much much better than Blessed One though:

- An additional cantrip in its improved psi version
- Lots of options for the Focus spell, including ranged ones
- A choice between 2 stats for the casting
- You can take later feats in the dedication to raise your proficiency.
- You can take it with the Multitalented ancestry feat.

Exactly, Blessed One is fine because it's focused on one single niche: Lay on Hands. You get that focus spells and feats to improve it, that is all.

Psychic opens a whole tool box and get some of the best tools from the get go.

That's besides the point.

Kalaam wrote:

Yeah exactly. If something is Best In Slot it shows there is an issue somewhere. Either that thing is too strong (or too easily accessible for how strong it is) or the classes picking it are too weak in certain aspects.

It’s not best in slot for multiclass dedication feats. It’s on pretty even ground with alchemist, exemplar, investigator (for devise), Kineticist (for timber sentinel) and champion. It’s not some crazy outlier, there are like 6 top of the line multiclass dedications and it’s just one of them. Those are the multiclass dedications that immediately give you something meaningful and/or have a really good low level follow up feat. Most of the other multiclass dedications just don’t give anything worthwhile, that’s why they’re not picked.

And that is exactly my point.

Those are "the bests" because they give way too much for a single (or 2 at most) feats. Usually core class features.
For kineticist is mainly timber sentinel just being stupidly broken, and all GMs should limit it to once per 10 minutes.

But for the others its exactly what i'm describing, its "best in slot" (depending on your character) because its gives you way too much for no investment.

More balanced would be stuff like:

Psychic doesn't give you basic amps right away (or are somehow limited to psychic itself, depending on how its reworked)

Alchemist shouldn't give you full alchemy that easily.

Investigator already takes a few feats to get there actually, 2 to get Devise and a 3rd to get it more easily as a free action with Person of Interrest. Otherwise its utility varies depending on how your GM determines what is relevant to your case.

Exemplar should only give the Transcendance with a once per 10 minute limit. And even then it'd be super strong.

Champion doesn't give much without investing more feats to get the reaction or the focus spells.

So really you're listing a few to make it seem like there is more multiclass that are as good as psychic or exemplar than there really is.

snip

I am not referring to Amped Guidance specifically. Just to the amount of stuff you get. Be it a damaging spell, a buff, a control one, a defensive one...

Let's say it's like getting basic spellcasting benefits from the first wizard dedication feat then.

Getting access to amps by themselves isn't that much of an issue, it just takes basically no investment as demonstrated above.

Just like when people say a caster dedication is just better than taking cantrip expansion, since it's the same effect but also opens you up to either more spell slots if you wish to, or simply the ability to use any scroll/wand/etc of another tradition.

Basically Psychic (and Alchemist and Exemplar) are, like said before, the equivalent of the 1 level dip into warlock to grab Eldritch Blast or charisma to weapon attacks along with renewable spell slots in 5E. Too many benefits for basically no costs.

Imagine if just taking the Bard Dedication gave you courageous anthem and Lingering Composition in a single feat basically. That's kind of what Psychic does.

Yeah exactly. If something is Best In Slot it shows there is an issue somewhere. Either that thing is too strong (or too easily accessible for how strong it is) or the classes picking it are too weak in certain aspects.

Like yeah Magus is the biggest offender. You can't ask a single build advice in the community without half of the comments being "Pick up Psychic, you feats suck anyway"

I was thinking of a more flavorful "Straining your mind to amplify psi cantrips costs you, whenever you amp a psi cantrip you become Stupefied 1 until the end of your next turn" would also work.

But limiting it per refocus works too, though even so doesn't fully solve the magus problem. It's still a renewable spell-slot between each fight. The only magus that realistically would spam it 3 times in a fight would be a Starlit Span that can just spellstrike every round.

Lowkey thinking Secrets of Magic not being reprintable is a blessing a disguise 'cause summoner and magus won't be limited by page count if they get remastered in another book.