Not even in PFS, they are explicitaly allowed. JiCi is saying nonsense here.
Like, reactive strikes are rare, and only become an issue at higher levels.
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I mean Ray of Frost, Acid Splash and Shocking Grasp litteraly still exist as their own spells. They haven't been replaced and are still useable, paizo just used the room to print more spells 'cause those didn't need any change, and that gave other options for save spells at low level.
I tend to aggree, outside of some specific cases. It being too regular of an occurance would feel like a crutch imo. That's why I went with making arcane cascade more worth the hassle.
Maybe you should read my suggestions then JiCi.
Making it a reaction to a strike could work, wouldn't be the exact usecase I had in mind though. And yes I meant Repeat a Spell, I thought it was still called Sustained for that. But yes.
Yes making Arcane Cascade useable as a reaction/free action would be too good if you can end it to recharge.
Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad my rambling still had some cohesiveness (though yes it could definitely be more organised that's for sure) It is true that having part of Expansive baked in base Spellstrike could push the Magus to being more MAD and this could only be "fixed" but having more attack spells to choose from overall so it's not that much of a loss to focus on other stats and spellstrike with attack spells only. For a while I considered limiting Spell Combat to Magus spell slots only but might have been too restrictive. For the arcane cascade, yeah the added recharge option doesn't address everything for sure, still tricky to get into the stance without spending at least 2 actions (usually Shield then the stance) and it could be nice to have more feats like Capture Magic to give more ways to enter it.
I know forbidding focus spells on spellstrike could be problematic (thought focus cantrips aren't) but they could still be compatible with spell combat maybe(so utility focus spells could be very useful).
Nobody says the class is screwed or non-functional or underpowered or anything. Like all that's advocated for is tweaking it and polishing some clunky edges and inconsistencies.
It could be in homebrew, that's true. But I intend it more as a point of discussion and feedback about the current state of the class in the remaster and some ideas of possible changes.
Too bad you can't crosspost on two subforums
Making all spells be DCs might cause a few issues:
Secondly, it might just feel bad. There is something fun about rolling the attack yourself rather than the target rolling a save after you declare an attack.
This reflection comes from all the discussion in another thread Articulating my issue with the magus So to start with a little preface: All numbers given here are wet-finger estimates and placeholder.
My suggestions and analysis rely on a common sentiment I saw and share to an extent that Magus is lacking in some aspect, that some of its design is inconsistent within the class features and the "optimal" options are found outside of the class and its intended design.
Please note I am in no way pretending to be an authority on ttrpg class designs, to be the magus messiah or that I'm in any way smarter than anyone else. Now, let's us begin. :
The strategic value of the Magus wave caster slots have been discussed at length. My takeaway is that, while a very flexible tool due to the Arcane List, the limit on spell numbers and them being only your top levels spells does make a LOT of choices compete for those. Including utility or buffs, some of which wouldn't heighten smoothly but retain value nonetheless. This issue is likely why the class receives additional lower rank slots in the form of Studious Spells. Slots reserved for a selection of utility and Flavor spells. The encouragement to use the top slots for offensive spells is further reinforced by several class features and feats that explicitely do work solely when triggered by the use of a spell slot. Other feats allow more versatility to them, namely Expansive Spellstrike that allows the use of the action compression/delaying of Spellstrike with AoE spells, and Standby Spell that let's you use some/all of your slots for situational/utility spells while still retaining the ability to use those slots for one offensive spell of your choice. In a vaccuum, this works fine enough and Standby Spell is even a very valuable feat to get more flexibility in your spell preparation (some might argue it would be best as a class feature).
I have been leaning more and more into removing focus spell compatibility with Spellstrike and will go in detail about it later.
:
Spellstrike, as others have said, is more of an action deferment than compression. Unless the encounter ends before you recharge it, it'll cost you 3 actions in full. However, this flexibility in WHEN to pay that 3rd action is one of its big strengths, especially when you can sneak it in with another one or two actions into a single one with conflux spells. It does lead to a form of clunky routine though, since it's a 2 action activity that counts double for MAP, and it is potentially so strong when using more than a cantrip with it, everything leads to you trying to spam it, or use it as much as possible.
The class features and numerous feats (16 out of 45 feats) rely on either being upgrades to Spellstrike, or triggering from its use.
Expansive Spellstrike allows more variety in the spell choice, but those only benefit from the action deference and to an extent a range or angle manipulation.
And so this is exactly what i'd like to propose, to reintroduce Spell Combat as revamped Expansive Spellstrike AND a slight rewrite to Spellstrike. Spellstrike
After you use Spellstrike, you can't do so again until you recharge your Spellstrike as a single action, which has the concentrate trait. You also recharge your Spellstrike when you cast a conflux spell that takes at least 1 action to cast; casting a focus spell of another type doesn't recharge your Spellstrike. By allowing spells targetting a creature rather than solely attack rolls this expands the spell selection without having to wait for more spells with the attack trait to be added. Allowing things like Electric Arc, Frostbite, Thunderstrike etc. The penalty on a hit helps the Magus' catch up somewhat to full casters when using their core feature and mixing their martial and magical skills to be as good as a pure caster, when dealing with a single target.
Note that in this version the spell is still lost on a missed strike ! Spell Combat (former Expansive Spellstrike)
If your critically miss your Strike before Casting such spells, the spell is lost. The wording would need some work, but essentially: this allows to use those utility spells in combat in a way unique to a Magus.
Some potential issues: some spells like Warding Aggression require a weapon attack roll as part of their casting, I am unsure how to resolve this. Would making two strikes at the same MAP be too good, or would MAP apply normaly to them ? I am leaning to the latter option. It could be possible to limit Magus Archetype to spellstriking with attack spells only. Now the other aspect of Spellstrike that might need tweaks: Recharging Spellstrike
I think the last option is under explored: Skill Actions recharging Spellstrike.
There is another option I'll explore in the next part: :
A tad dramatic, I know. Arcane Cascade is the mechanic of Magus that is the most under utilized.
I believe this stance would stand to gain some value, mainly in two ways:
Cascade Recycling
This is another side to the Action Deferring of Spellstrike.
For it to be an actual opportunity cost however, there need to be uses for Arcane Cascade. This is were more actions are needed, mainly in feat selections.
Second, during "off turns" those new attacks and abilities can give something to do to the class that either emulate or put its own spin on pure martials' abilities (again mixing martial and magic to do something specialists can or even cannot)
Cascading Splash: 1 action flourish
Riving Strike: 2 actions
Arcane Slamdown: 2 actions
Rend Defenses: 2 actions
This gives you some idea. :
Finally, the issue of focus spells aka "Why do Magi often devellop psychic powers". Cleric, Oracle, Champion and any class offering Attack Focus Spells is very appealing to Magus because those are compatible with Spellstrike and are a renewable ressource.
This is a very powerful synergy.
Which is why some Hybrid Studies feats, as recently as Tian Xia character guide and the new post-remaster Aloof Firmament subclass explicitaly calls off cantrips AND FOCUS SPELLS from its level 10 feat "Unsheathe the Swordlight". It would be better if this was uniform accross the board.
However: more attack spells are badly needed, a lot of those focus spells would be incredible as ranked spells. Even if just a new coat of paint:
You get the idea. Now, i've been typing this for over 2 hours and I'm starting to lose track, I dunno if I covered everything I wanted but I'll leave it here for now.
Again: all numbers are estimate/placeholders, not all of those ideas have to be implemented together etc etc. Stay civil, this is a place to discuss and elevate ideas.
It does. I posted a few but there could be a lot. Edit: Also, been thinking of posting my writeup as its own topic, as to not have it lost in conversation. Think it's a good idea people ?
Well that's why I suggested a reimplentation of Spell Combat within the 2e format for example.
Yeah but then it's not really Magus anymore if they don't use actual spells.
I aggree that the choice to use focus spells for spellstrike or for recharges is nice, but as it is it's just so much better to use focus spells than slotted spells and I don't really see a way to address it. Either leave as is or remove it, but incenticizing other spell slots and all would be good. Though the issue is you can't really introduce any other way to recharge spellstrike (like the skill action idea) because then the tradeoff to spellstrike Imaginary Weapon becomes even less impactful since you have other options.
Kind of a "head I win, tails you lose" situation lol.
Also I'd really, really appreciate it if some people could just try some of my suggestions with their groups, or suggest it around for like 1 or 2 sessions if they have a magus in their group, or just for 1 to 2 fights oneshots, just to see how it feels.
Well sometimes you have to not be afraid of upsetting the "masses" !
Alright, figured it's time to fully write down my thing.
All numbers given here are wet-finger estimates and placeholder.
My suggestions and analysis rely on a common sentiment I saw and share to an extent that Magus is lacking in some aspect, that some of its design is inconsistent within the class features and the "optimal" options are found outside of the class and its intended design.
Please note I am in no way pretending to be an authority on ttrpg class designs, to be the magus messiah or that I'm in any way smarter than anyone else. Now, let's us begin. :
The strategic value of the Magus wave caster slots have been discussed at length. My takeaway is that, while a very flexible tool due to the Arcane List, the limit on spell numbers and them being only your top levels spells does make a LOT of choices compete for those. Including utility or buffs, some of which wouldn't heighten smoothly but retain value nonetheless. This issue is likely why the class receives additional lower rank slots in the form of Studious Spells. Slots reserved for a selection of utility and Flavor spells. The encouragement to use the top slots for offensive spells is further reinforced by several class features and feats that explicitely do work solely when triggered by the use of a spell slot. Other feats allow more versatility to them, namely Expansive Spellstrike that allows the use of the action compression/delaying of Spellstrike with AoE spells, and Standby Spell that let's you use some/all of your slots for situational/utility spells while still retaining the ability to use those slots for one offensive spell of your choice. In a vaccuum, this works fine enough and Standby Spell is even a very valuable feat to get more flexibility in your spell preparation (some might argue it would be best as a class feature).
I have been leaning more and more into removing focus spell compatibility with Spellstrike and will go in detail about it later.
:
Spellstrike, as others have said, is more of an action deferment than compression. Unless the encounter ends before you recharge it, it'll cost you 3 actions in full. However, this flexibility in WHEN to pay that 3rd action is one of its big strengths, especially when you can sneak it in with another one or two actions into a single one with conflux spells. It does lead to a form of clunky routine though, since it's a 2 action activity that counts double for MAP, and it is potentially so strong when using more than a cantrip with it, everything leads to you trying to spam it, or use it as much as possible.
The class features and numerous feats (16 out of 45 feats) rely on either being upgrades to Spellstrike, or triggering from its use.
Expansive Spellstrike allows more variety in the spell choice, but those only benefit from the action deference and to an extent a range or angle manipulation.
And so this is exactly what i'd like to propose, to reintroduce Spell Combat as revamped Expansive Spellstrike AND a slight rewrite to Spellstrike. Spellstrike
After you use Spellstrike, you can't do so again until you recharge your Spellstrike as a single action, which has the concentrate trait. You also recharge your Spellstrike when you cast a conflux spell that takes at least 1 action to cast; casting a focus spell of another type doesn't recharge your Spellstrike. By allowing spells targetting a creature rather than solely attack rolls this expands the spell selection without having to wait for more spells with the attack trait to be added. Allowing things like Electric Arc, Frostbite, Thunderstrike etc. The penalty on a hit helps the Magus' catch up somewhat to full casters when using their core feature and mixing their martial and magical skills to be as good as a pure caster, when dealing with a single target.
Note that in this version the spell is still lost on a missed strike ! Spell Combat (former Expansive Spellstrike)
If your critically miss your Strike before Casting such spells, the spell is lost. The wording would need some work, but essentially: this allows to use those utility spells in combat in a way unique to a Magus.
Some potential issues: some spells like Warding Aggression require a weapon attack roll as part of their casting, I am unsure how to resolve this. Would making two strikes at the same MAP be too good, or would MAP apply normaly to them ? I am leaning to the latter option. It could be possible to limit Magus Archetype to spellstriking with attack spells only. Now the other aspect of Spellstrike that might need tweaks: Recharging Spellstrike
I think the last option is under explored: Skill Actions recharging Spellstrike.
There is another option I'll explore in the next part: :
A tad dramatic, I know. Arcane Cascade is the mechanic of Magus that is the most under utilized.
I believe this stance would stand to gain some value, mainly in two ways:
Cascade Recycling
This is another side to the Action Deferring of Spellstrike.
For it to be an actual opportunity cost however, there need to be uses for Arcane Cascade. This is were more actions are needed, mainly in feat selections.
Second, during "off turns" those new attacks and abilities can give something to do to the class that either emulate or put its own spin on pure martials' abilities (again mixing martial and magic to do something specialists can or even cannot)
Cascading Splash: 1 action flourish
Riving Strike: 2 actions
Arcane Slamdown: 2 actions
Rend Defenses: 2 actions
This gives you some idea. :
Finally, the issue of focus spells aka "Why do Magi often devellop psychic powers". Cleric, Oracle, Champion and any class offering Attack Focus Spells is very appealing to Magus because those are compatible with Spellstrike and are a renewable ressource.
This is a very powerful synergy.
Which is why some Hybrid Studies feats, as recently as Tian Xia character guide and the new post-remaster Aloof Firmament subclass explicitaly calls off cantrips AND FOCUS SPELLS from its level 10 feat "Unsheathe the Swordlight". It would be better if this was uniform accross the board.
However: more attack spells are badly needed, a lot of those focus spells would be incredible as ranked spells. Even if just a new coat of paint:
You get the idea. Now, i've been typing this for over 2 hours and I'm starting to lose track, I dunno if I covered everything I wanted but I'll leave it here for now.
Again: all numbers are estimate/placeholders, not all of those ideas have to be implemented together etc etc. Stay civil, this is a place to discuss and elevate ideas.
No you're right, strange archetypes like that are fun for that reason.
Exactly.
Oh I see.
Spellstrike doesn't work with all strikes tho, it works with all (melee) WEAPONS ! But if you get a fighting style that isn't getting unarmed stuff well it won't change much.
Also Teridax, I just mean that to add into a campaign midway for example it is a bit harder to add in that the character is now ordained as a cleric than it is to awaken psychic powers suddenly is all. There is totally ways of making a coherent background behind a magus who is also a cleric. But it'll be more restrictive since you have to make the god you choose work into your roleplay with the anathemas and all. (which is part the cleric's appeal rp wise) Also tbh if you think none of this is worth talking about...tf you're still here Trip? I won't believe you're there just to annoy people or to pretend to be better than them.
Yeah but this doesn't address my complaint at all.
You just said "strike altering archetypes" without elaborating. I fail to see it.
I'll wait until you calm down then.
I think cleric might be harder to justify rpwise compared to psychic and other kinds of spontaneous casters (though you could get the focus spells from oracle instead). IW is 100% overvalued but does have the benefit of being one of the very few spells easily compatible with Spell Swip, which is always neat to see.
Trip, please don't resort to insult you are better than that.
Then do tell me what they are compatible with then, educate me.
But again not exactly my point.
The thing is, few archetypes really play well with the kit.
To me its an issue in itself that you "have to" look at archetype to play differently rather than have different styles supported within the class options.
Outside of subclass (which, again, are very variable in term of potency and exclusive feats) most of your feats won't change much how you play or what you can do, or how you engage with the action economy.
I guess I should write up my whole proposition in full and post it soon.
Alchemist does have quick bombing, quick alchemy etc. Magus misses part of his "martial" kit is what I'm saying. Outside of spellstrike there is little ways in which its martial kit and his magical kit interract.
And yeah most classes don't have flourish, reactions, free actions, spells.
Like would it be so bad if Devastating Spellstrike was its own strike action instead of a spellstrike variant ? The class (like a lot of others honestly) would just benefit from getting some new options in its feat selection since release, 'cause outside of two subclasses (which are neat) it hasn't gotten any while the core and advanced guide ones got a bunch.
I aggree that S-Strike would still be the core feature you work toward, I don't have the intention to change that.
The issue with archetypes (especially martial ones) is that they synergize very little at best with the magus' kit. Some stuff can be of use for action compression (skirmish strike, sudden charge) but i just find it odd for the Magus not to have some its own unique take on some of those actions or just some unique ones to its particular situation.
This would also make the magus archetype more than "get 2 cantrips, spellstrike and Dimensional Assault" maybe.
I think this isn't really the question here. At least this isn't the vision i'm defending.
And also clarify accross the board what spells are eligible for different class/subclass features and feats. Even if that means nixing focus spell compatibility. Or adjusting what spells work with spellstrike and how.
Which is why I suggested nixing focus spells compatibility altogether lol
Shadow Signet is good but given that there is so few attack spells it just helps casters get even on accuracy compared to martials when they make use of recall knowledge for the ennemie's weakest save.
That's another issue in itself Witch, that several focus spells are so good that they circumvent the original design of the class. Again, a lot of class features incenticize using spell slots for spellstrike. So either those will need to be rewritten so focus spells work with them, or something else.
No, dude, I aggree that tying the result of save spells directly to the attack roll is problematic.
A simple penalty to the save (maybe only reflex) on a hit or crit is enough to make those more reliable without being busted.
Tbh this is more a topic of "Investigator archetype is too good"
I'm talking about DaS as itself, I already said I don't aggree with tying save result to strike result directly. What's HR standing for here ? Also I know it's not directed toward me but dude chill out with the insults, like come on we're all adults here (I hope).
Guys, please keep it civil.
It's just a talk, no need to get heated like that it just makes the whole discussion less enjoyable for everyone. If you can't aggree just ignore each other instead of egging yourselves on and on. Anyway: We all know I'm the one who is always right about magus in any case lol
Making it 3 actions non-compressible on ranked spells is pretty constraining though. It feels contrived all to prevent *one* spell from being abused. Maybe we should just rework Sure Strike to be DaS but as a 1st rank spell,that doesn't let you substitute your modifier lol.
To be fair, sudden bolt has the uncommon tag and thus can be made to not exist in a given campaign, also means a magus CANNOT access it by simple levelling up and has to find access to it in some way.
To be fair, while DaS doesn't increase your luck it does remove the gambling risk. You essentially know if you can commit to your spellstrike with a spell slot or not, which is very valuable.
With DaS you know in advance wether the fight is ending or not when you can apply your attack result to the save for stuff like Slow, etc. Since those don't have the incapacitation trait.
DaS is extremely strong not because it guarantees all of your spellstrikes will crit, it doesn't change your luck (tho you can skew thet statistics if you ONLY spellstrike when you roll a 20, but then you're gonna spellstrike a lot less often) but it is strong before you always know if it is worth spending your powerful and very limited ressources this round or not. It takes away the gambit aspect of spellstrike. Which, with your proposition, can be even greater with some save spells if you tie the result 1 to 1 to the strike's result. So it's both more impactful than you give it credit for, and less OP in itself than some people believe. Sorry to say Teridax but I don't think your spellstrike version would be easy to balance without a bunch of caveat rules.
I must have slept on standby spell, it's pretty good and has no cost.
Trip, I didn't say Magus' damage was actually lower than other martials. Just that the difference isn't that massive. You forget in your rebuttal that in that example, the magus pays a cost with a spell slot.
And again I am not advocating to make spellstrike more powerful. The only "upgrade" i'd give it is to make it work with spells that target one or several creatures and doesn't have an area of effect, with a save penalty to the target on a successful hit (-1 and -2 on a crit, or -2 and -3, whatever is balanced. Maybe have it only be to reflex saves) Otherwise what I really want are more horizontal options. Stuff that expand options outside of spellstrike, give more tools to play with the action economy etc
I even said, several times, that'd I'd be in favor of *nerfing* some of the strongest synergies by removing the focus spell compatibility with spellstrike. What I'm demonstrating is that Magus, when commiting a ressource, isn't outputting like double the damage of other martials like some seem to believe. I think tonight or tomorrow I'll make a full post detailing my suggestions, maybe have it be its own topic as well.
I'd like to say, Spellstrike isn't that much stronger than other martials.
I went and checked old comparisons I did during the playtest.
Could also try with fighter, but I dunno how to factor in the higher crit chance into average damage since it has better accuracy.
All that to say, with whiteroom math every martial can be overpowered in term of damage.
So let's take a deep breath, calm down and get to the topic. Which is not "making magus as op as possible" but addressing the frustrations some have with some aspect of its design and how it could be tweaked to be more fun, not more powerful. (and again "power" isn't necesseraly damage anyway)
Listen, Firelion, I did say I think the power of spellstrike (and some of its synergies) is an issue and would benefit from a rebalance to redistribute some of it on other aspect of the class.
But well if you just persist putting whatever strawman you want onto my messages, you do you. I'll just ignore you from now on. Blue, yes that's one option. But it's a very limited daily ressource that'd pigeonhole you to it with little to no flexibility otherwise.
Firelion you are missing my point. Please read my messages again. You completely misinterpret both my intent and ideas.
Yeah I got that, but even then I am not fond of the idea. Yeah you can use status spells fine, but the whole attack spell categorie becomes almost useless (and magus is kind of the class supposed to make those shine) and even offensive save spells aren't that good anymore. If hitting a spellstrike inflicts a penalty on the save, or lowers the success on a crit or something then maybe you could argue that you have a choice between a more likely to succeed spellstrike damage save and a 2 rank higher save spell that is more potent but less likely to work. But it kind of changes the whole class' role into being a boss debuffer. To me it's too restrictive and makes too many options harder to do or just not feasible.
For out of combat, fair. Though as long as DCs aren't a huge factor, then it's only a single feat investment to get access to it, it isn't that much. Either a dedication or even just Trick Magic Item to be able to use any tradition if the character is trained in several of the relevant skills. It's convenient and useful for sure. But I am not sure if it justifies limiting the magus' martial side versatility in combat. If it had more tools to easily make use of those items in combat then yeah I could see that (like if fused staff and striker scrolls didn't limit their use to spellstrike only)
I don't really like this idea tbh. This makes spell attacks that aren't cantrips even less interresting to use unless they have very useful rider effects. I feel like it also becomes more complicated to define which spells are compatible with spellstrike (depending on how its defined in your version) are both Slow and Darkness valid then ? Or only spells with a DC ?
That's true but it is quite difficult to use them with its class features effectively.
Don't get me wrong: yes magus' ease of access to arcane stuff is very good, but it's not that useful to make use of in my experience. At best you get some extra utility slot (rings of wizardry) with no cost in actions etc. Otherwise it can take you a full round to cast a spell from a staff, wand or scroll (unless you have a feat investment in either to prepare them for a spellstrike specifically). Use a scroll: need a free hand. To draw the scroll and then cast (3 actions, 4 to get your weapon back in hand if you use a 2 handed one or a shield and weapon to pick up either)
Use a wand: same thing, but with no ways around it. It'll even take one more action to put away the wand if you don't want to drop it for some reason. Use a staff: Need it in hand so if not already, at least 3 actions etc etc.
So yeah magus can use all of those, at no investment.
Edit: Also not sure what WRT stands for, sorry.
So for example, in your proposition, a level 10 magus would have:
It could be interresting to have spellstrike slots. In that case could spellstrike works ONLY from those slots or would any slot work, just that those are the minimum amount always available kind of like divine fonts being guaranteed heal/harm charges ?
In that situation, i'd like to implement Spell Combat back (as an addon/replacement for Expansive Spellstrike, as THE action compression/deference tool for the use of any spell outside of spellstrike itself.
In which case, I assume your suggestion would still have 4 slots+ 2 Striker slots then ? and no lower rank studious spells anymore tho, this could be a bit awkward to suddenly remove this feature from the studies, it added some neat flavor.
I remember a homebrew I posted a few years ago (maybe for the compendium, don't remember) about a hybrid study that gained the ability to perceive invisible creatures through the astral plane within 10 feet of them, and the ability to seek that way or something. Was fun. But yeah maybe I should compile all of my ideas and drop it here for reference sake.
So either an feat chain for either letting you more easily use the spells or separate feat for them.
Edit: Also yes having spellstrike behave like channel smite would be too strong. Unless there is a clean way to restrict that effect to avoid some spells. Maybe limiting it to crits against a reflex DC, or bump down the success by one so the target still can roll their save. Like -2 to the save on a hit, bump down on a crit ? Still extremely strong especially with devise a stratagem, but spellstrike will always be crazy strong with devise a stratagem (and good luck, i very often had an invetsigator spend a whole fight devising below 15 during a boss so you know, it's still a 5% chance. Just that you know in advance wether to spend a ressource or not before committing)
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