Kalaam's page

Could also have a wand of manifold missile active while using, say, a rapier or longsword instead. And maybe LS with. A flat footed enemy due to being under 4th rank invisibility
All stuff the magus gets within its chassis. Using it fully would be a fairer comparison

Kalaam wrote:

I just meant there is more that direct damage. Rider effects that make an enemy waste actions, lower their offensive ability, force them to move etc etc when you wouldn't one shot them anyway allow for more damage to go their way.

It's also more dynamic and fun imo to have that kind of ability

That's fair, but most of the rider effects I've seen used were to make the enemies easier to hit in some manner or another, by reducing AC, saves, ect.

I fully agree that it is more dynamic and fun, unfortunately the game is also rather tightly balanced and fun can get you absolutely wrecked. Which is something of a problem.

Those too are imo fun rider effects to play with. In the end it's all to deal more damage (or more consistent, etc etc) but in different ways.

Kalaam wrote:

Conclusion: Spellstriking with cantrip won't require recharge

This accomplishes...what? The demo above uses a focus spell and still falls behind. Cantrip spellstrike itself doesn't do enough damage to compete without force fang's free damage to follow up. That's also why any other recharge mechanisms wouldn't matter anyway.

It'd give a bit more flexibility, but at the same time smokescreen doing other stuff, or maybe not, hard to tell.

I'd argue the magus using Cascading Ray against a secondary target might be an interresting comparaison tool tho. Since it uses the same MAP as the spellstrike (assuming maxxed int, basically a -4 ranged attack)

Conclusion: Spellstriking with cantrip won't require recharge

Some are even made of crystal

I just meant there is more that direct damage. Rider effects that make an enemy waste actions, lower their offensive ability, force them to move etc etc when you wouldn't one shot them anyway allow for more damage to go their way.
It's also more dynamic and fun imo to have that kind of ability

That's why more offensive actions need to be built into the class. Similarly to eldritch archer feats

Interestingly I think the design of how spellstrike works like this is supposed to emulate 1e spell combat being a full round activity of casting spell/spellstriking and doing full attacks. Meaning you couldn't move if you chose to do it. So a magus, like in 1e, can absolutely do it every round of they don't need to move.
Issue is 2e has a much more mobile combat. And while in 1e you could move and make a singular spellstrike every round, at the cost of not being able to do your full attacks, in 2e there isn't that action compression aspect, since casting+attacking normally for your complete round is a thing everyone can do.

That might be a source of the clunkiness of current spellstrike and magus action economy.

Spellstrike, however, does provoke reactions. In which case key support from the party like your bard did is essential !

Some of them even come in tube form!

I do aggree we need more foxes overall

Kalaam are you going to post your rework Magus? I would like to see it.

I did, it's in the homebrew section and I linked into it i'earlier here.

Also Teridax you're right, though I do suggest more than those things.
And remember I also did suggest leaving that interaction untouched as well, just not to design the class around it by either giving it one of its own and calling it a day or intentionally holding it back because of the potential to grab smfocys spells elsewhere. That's also why I had chosen to give focus spells another value so they stay interresting to grab even without spellstrike in mind.

Also,sorry for my behavior earlier, I wasn't in the right mind space

Speaking of runesmith, I really hope we get a ton of runes with niche effects to make combos with.

Like I said, you want the Magus to be less awful? Give it feats that allows it to recharge Spellstrike faster, activate Cascade right away and make save spells of any kind harder to resist.

Done all of those in my own rework and I hope some of those will be implemented. But somehow this never seems to be what people focus on. Too shocked at the idea of not spellstriking focus spells anymore

Also yeah Teridax, I repeat myself. Because somehow the point doesn't come accross.
And yes I said I was done, but I struggle to let go, that's an issue I am aware of, no need to rub it in my face.

So weird that a lot of my impactful action with my magus were with spellstrike spells that didn't have the highest damage but other useful effects.

Kalaam wrote:

Your analogy is falacious.

I'm talking about game design. In your analogy it'd be more like people not changing the hinges instead. Or replacing their creaky door by another every time instead of just fixing the hinges.

No, it is your own analogy that is fallacious. I am talking about people applying an obvious fix to an obvious problem. Meanwhile, on the topic of sidestepping issues, you still seem to have nothing to say about Starlit Span, nor does your proposal do anything to address this far more glaring problem with the Magus.

That's just moving the goalpost now. I'm done here.

Unless you play a pacifist, you're going to want to deal as much damage per round in every round for every combat encounter.

This isn't like a video game where you must either "wait for an opening" or "break the armor to expose the glowing core". Combat in Pathfinder is about "Striking multiple times until the target is defeated". Nothing less, nothing more...

If you don't want to deal damage, you're trying to restrain your target, but even then, why would you do this as a Magus anyway?

Okay I get it, the only way to play is to do big damage. Goodbye.

Generally, though there is outliers like Champion and, formerly, Psychic.

As gesalt said, Champion kind of gives a lot of things a lot of classes might want. It's not really a niche.

A niche is something like Blessed One that focuses on a single ability (lay on hands), or Medic (being really good at battle medicine).
Those work with any class, they aren't "fixes" for your class' design being flawed.

Honestly archetypes should be powerful in specific niches instead of just being your class but better.

That's another debate however

It was annoying then, it is annoying now.

Magus could do so much more than just spellstrike shocking grasp with full attacks back then yet this was what everyone recommended doing all the time

Your analogy is falacious.
I'm talking about game design. In your analogy it'd be more like people not changing the hinges instead. Or replacing their creaky door by another every time instead of just fixing the hinges.

Also Kitusser, I have (again) pointed out why people take that pick before.
I understand the reasoning. I am also explaining why it highlights design issues without addressing them.
It's putting tape on a hole. Sure, it "fixes" it, but the hole is still here.

Those would make quite a lot of sense. Geniekin would probably fit better in Rage of Elements but it's already a remaster book. Impossible Magic is the next best fit

I have explained myself countless times for month.

I think it's abusing the mechanic because it's litteraly being used (or advertised at least) constantly by the community as a fix on how to play the class.

And then any discussion about redesign gets drowned by a shieldwall of people not wanting it to be touched because it's so strong (arguably).

Yes, again, it is due to the built in limitation of the class AND the lack of attack spells to use.
I'm not denying it.

I'm saying that focusing on those as the way to "fix" the class issues is a dead end. The class wasn't designed to rely on focus spells for spellstrike, it was a useful option that had solid tradeoff at the time the class was designed (previous refocus rules) but now it's become an actual issue in term of game design imo.

Best in slot etc etc etc even if untrue, that's the way the community sees it.

I challenge you to check any forum thread of subreddit post asking advice about Magus or even just talking about it and not finding at least one person saying to just pick up a focus spell from a multiclass or archetype 90% of the time.

I haven't said attack spells are ubiquitous, I said the abuse of focus spells for it have become ubiquitous with the class within the discussions of it in the community.

And again

again

again

again

and again

I'm not saying "ban focus spellstrike and that's it"

I won't bother repeating my whole argument and proposition again, i'm sick of it.

Okay, my bad then. Too tired to argue this at this hour lol

Legendary heavy armor on the Magus is, to my understanding, being suggested by literally no one on this thread.

I didn't mean that magus shouldn't get legendary heavy armor. I was answering to the comment above saying that heavy armor isn't a protected niche as an example relative to legendary spell DC.

And I aggree, AGAIN, that occasionally matching the DC of a full caster would be good (aka penalty to saves on a spellstrike for example)

Regarding focus spells and all, I explained why I think it's "op" over and over again. If not op it's ubiquitous and sidesteps design issues without solving them.
People claiming the class is fine and doesn't need changes because of this is an issue 'cause if you don't use those for whatever reason then you're potentially weaker. By itself, without multiclass, the class doesn't have those and it shouldn't be designed with the assumption that multiclass/archetypes will fix it.

Heavy armor isn't, legendary heavy armor is.

A legendary DC magus would only need scrolls, wands or archetypes to use a DC that's often equal too or lower by 1 to a full caster, which being a more power direct damage dealer and having good martial abilities.
It'd kind of have the best of both worlds with the only drawback being a lack of spellslots. Most of the benefits of being a full caster would be cheapened by that.

That the magus' DC is improved somewhat when they do "their" thing is a good idea to expand the amount of spells they can use with spellstrike for example, but for all their spells to have a legendary DC at the rate of a wizard feels cheap to me.

That's kind of what Force Fang does. Guaranteed damage at the cost of a focus point, and also recharge spellstrike.

Alternatively there is Cascading Ray, a ranged spell attack at the same MAP as your spellstrike, but only against a different target. Some variants of that would be nice honestly.

Also yeah, when unable to spellstrike the class really loses a lot of its toolkit.

It's weird then that so many of their feats only worked when using spell slots for spellstrike, feels a bit at odds with the design.

It would encourage it but it wouldn't be that needed if the class is designed to be powerful without it, I think.

But yeah, wait and see. I hope some of the ideas we both shared over the last year and a half made it into the remaster :p

Yippee, i got correctly fact checked :D

I think that giving up on offering more options because some/a perceived majority/optimal players will always pick the same 3 spells is doing a disservice to the design.

Sure, if they do, they will. Nothing will stop them.
But it's their way of playing their character, who cares ? Those who want to do something else (say want to have a water/ice centric magus) will be able to pick the spells that fit it the most for that.

Whereas if you only got a focus spell meant for spellstrike, and little support to not use it and do something else, it restrain the player options. Not relying on it will actively gimp your character even more.

You can leave the focus spellstrike thing in, and remaster the class as if nobody used that cheese/tech/build option. That way everyone's happy.
And if it does end up becoming an issue, it's one errata away from being nerfed anyway. But that's also why I'd love to see the value of focus spells changed for magus, making any focus spell a conflux spell. So even existing builds wouldn't end up with useless spells from their build choices (wether or not the focus spellstrike ability is removed, in either cases the focus spells would keep their value as recharge tools)

They did confirm that magus and summoner will be in it, and those are indeed the last 2 legacy classes

At this point it's just a disagreement on game design tbh.

I guess my experience is one of a kind then. I think that looking at spellstrike and attack spells purely as damage is a mistake, their rider effects, especially those that can have stronger ones on crits, will tend to be more impactful and fun.

A dozen of spells is still ten times more than one focus spell. Plus potential additions from impossible magic, but the lack of attack spells is an issue we agree on.
Plus this varies as you level up and get access to more, not always for raw damage but also rider effects. Especially if the remaster males save spells more useable.
It allows more character expression where a singular focus spell would make all magi more samey.

If we're going to be boosting the Magus's spell output just so that they can Spellstrike with better spells more often, then I seen no reason not to just give the class baked-in focus attack spells. They don't need to be d8s of damage either; if they can sit comfortably between cantrips and slot spells in power, that ought to be enough to give the Magus an evergreen source of better Spellstrike output,...

Because you can then have much more variety in the spell selection, where a focus spell would always be the same and require more investment to get other ones.

I guess so, but they'd still have a total of 8 slots a day at maximum. The same as a multiclassed martial with a caster archetype (without the feat for extra ones)

I think it'd be good enough, it still follows the wave casting stipulation and all, just makes it maybe more flexible than it is currently, which has been a pain point for a loooot of people.

I remember a lot of people suggesting wave casting to leave 1 slot for the former levels each time, or to abandon it and just have magus and summoner have 2 slots per rank but no rank 10

I think Double Spellstrike would work better if there was font-like slot that guaranteed something like 2 slots for spellstrike per day. And then it makes any other slot you choose to use double its value.

Virtually up to 8 spellstrikes, 2 per minute for 1 slot, of your two highest ranks would be decent I believe. Without accounting for any slots you gained from items or multiclass (especially if save spells become better, you would benefit from using lower level slots for it as well! debuffs and other "evergreen" combat control spells that don't need heightening)

It does come in too late to be useful for most of the class' career though.

As for better proficiency I actually prefer it to be achieved, mathematically, through other means. Like a save penalty on spellstrikes and all. It fits more the fantasy and identity of "when using only magic or weapons it's not as good as a full martial or caster, but when merging both it reaches its full potential"
If you applied your Arcane Cascade bonus as a save penalty on all spellstrikes, successes or crits (without extra damage from situational effects like flanking or leaping from LS and AF) it'd achieve the same effect as a proficiency bump. If you maxx out your int, you'd even be slightly above a full caster at certain levels, but with the caveats of the extra action cost, single target and being in melee (given arcane cascade doesn't apply to ranged attack, neither should that debuff, to keep Starlit in check)

A lot of those changes would make sense, imo.
Not sure about removing double spellstrike for legendary proficiency though. It would feel weird to have two proficiency bumps 2 levels appart from each other.
Plus I like the concept of Double Spellstrike, it just needs more fuel to shine. Extra slots or such. Or maybe have it be Second Chance Spellstrike from the playtest, where if you miss, you can attempt the spellstrike again to not waste the ressource. Maybe not expending the charge and giving you until the end of your next turn.

You're saying that the class having action economy issues in its design is not a problem because you can archetype out of those problems.

It's a big issue since this means, by your logic, that magus is only good with specific build choices.

I'm just going to ignore you now. You really don't bring any interresting points to this discussion.

Pretty much. Weaknesses depend heavily on the campaign and enemy variety.
If you only ever fight ennemies without weaknesses, then yeah Arcane Cascade's extra damage really won't do much for you (that's why it has other benefits, though their value can be debated individually)

We said "without feats". (also you can edit your posts instead of double or tripple posting fwi)

Without feats and especially dedications and multiclassing, magus does have innate access to a bunch of utility and control items that the fighter can't even touch. Any scrolls or wands of wall spells, feet to fins or other buffs to give them an edge.

Now is the chassis as it is enough ? No. We already discussed that.

My point is that, with cantrip spellstrikes it's fine that those are a bit below a fighter's average damage. Because the magus has other tools and access to magic for stuff other than raw damage.

And when it needs to, it can/should outpace the fighter by spending a ressource on spellstrike.

It also tends to be higher damage on crits and only needing one good roll. Would be interresting to check the difference in damage between the two if they both get one critical hit on their turn.

The class still needs more stuff going in it. But the base concept and most of the chassis is fine damage wise. That's not what the class is lacking.

Edit: Misconstrue my point again, gesalt, and I won't bother answering, i'll just signal the message. I am tired of explaining myself over and over the same points.

Everyone aggrees the magus' action economy needs fixing. Some even have propositions, which I rarely see from you and some others who keep complaining for complaining's sake.

Given that magus, fearless has access to a lot of tool the fighter doesn't have (namely magic and casting items) to enhance their abilities, or exploit weaknesses, and can overtake them occasionally by spending ressources on spellstrike I think it's fine for it to be slightly below outside of it's big novas.
But it does need more options outside of just spellstrike cantrips

The hard part to calculate is that a fighter technically will hit more often and crit more often as well because of their higher accuracy. This also pushes their average damage up.

Technically the magus spends 3 actions on spellstrike, but the 3rd one can be compressed into another (conflux spells) or just paid later.

The thing is, mathematically, striking twice and hitting both times does about the same damage or a bit more than spellstriking a cantrip (varies depending on weapon choice and cantrip).

The advantage of Spellstrike is that you only need one good roll for that damage instead of two. But it's also less flexible to use.

Other martials, fighter in particular, get more ways to enhance their basic strikes with feats, whereas magus can only ever to so by expanding spell slots. A Fighter can, for example, use Certain Strike on their second attack so even if that one miss, they'll still do consistent damage.

For 3 actions, a fighter could Strike, then use Vicious Swing and if both hit they likely do more than a magus using a cantrip and recharging in the same round.
This is very whiteroom math, but in practice the fighter has more flexibility in what attacks to use on each turn, whereas the magus doesn't and eventually need to spend their ressources more and more to compete with other martials and their better strikes.

That's fair, that's why it must be part of a whole.
Some changes must be part of the base chassis, with expansions on those within feats. So the class feats are as valid as a way to expand your power as to use archetypes. And not just a subpar way to play the class (according to powerplayers)

H Feats can help vary actions, but I don't think can be allowed to close the power gap without making the class too good to archetype into.

Having the feats require arcane cascade or to have a specific hybrid study is an easy way to gatekeep them away from being pilfered, given that the dedication doesn't give either.

I think culling focus spellstrike while giving another value to using spellstrikes from other classes on magus would be good, like having any and all focus spells recharge spellstrike.
Conflux Spells would still be the best for the action compression, but all other focus spells would be valuable either as renewable ranged attacks or buffs that also recharge spellstrike

I suggested one per subclass plus a couple of feats that give a choice of 2 to add. And the idea of having more specific feats for some actions (say medicine checks, call it Arcane Stitching)

All of this just points out to me that Magus should get offensive options aside from spellstrike to feel complete.

Because if all that's done is give it a focus spell for it, the number 1 complaint within 2 months will be "Magus is boring to play."

Also let me go over my actual position so there is no more confusion.

Focus Spellstrike is an issue, in my opinion, because of how it warps the class discussion around it. Any talk of rebalance or buffs to it has to take it into account because any change can make it even more powerful and ubiquitous.

A few examples:

-Give magus more spell slots = still using focus spellstrikes because they are renewable attack spells with damage equal to max rank.

-More ways to recharge spellstrike = Less need to spend focus points on conflux spells -> easier to spam focus spellstrike.

-More attack spells printed = "But what if i prepare the wrong one/you can only use them once or twice a day" -> focus spells are still easier

-Better use of save spells on spellstrike = using other focus spells as well.

Etc etc

Then the things I actually suggest, which isn't as some put it "have magus only use cantrips for subpar damage":

-More ways to recharge spellstrike, through skills or contextual actions for a more dynamic and fluid gameplay, kind of like Gunslinger does which imo is a good example for Magus

-Font-like (or Curriculum-like) spell slots that can only be used for spellstrike. Start with 1, get a second one at level 5 when you lose 1st rank spells. A counterpart to Studious Spells.

-Expansion on Arcane Cascade, more abilities relying on it, making use of it. Attacks with beneficial effects (penalty to saves to setup your or an ally's next turn?) or a good offensive value.

-Smite-like mechanic on basic saves with spellstrike or/and a penalty to the save on a hit with other save spells.

Among other ideas, if you're curious you can go read them here (i haven't updated everything in the doc yet, not enought time)

It'll probably be easier for paizo to make the changes without accounting for that cheese and, if it proves necessary afterward, remove the synergy with an errata later down the line.