Kalaam's page

In Treasure Vault, clarification on the Spellstriker Staff's shifting rune.

Can it still be used to cast spells when shifted ? Originally thought yes but given that I am seeing a lot of people talking about shifting it into a gauntlet to wield another weapon with the same hand and still cast spells from it, I am not sure this is intended.

I've got two. First is sharing the same one I did in spring:

With the change to Sure Strike, I think that allowing potency runes to apply to spell attack rolls would now be balanced without the risk of an easy "get a divination staff with a +3 rune and spam Sure Strike 10 times a day" exploit.

Attack spells are often considered worse than saves and since caster progress in spell proficiency a bit slower than martials do with weapons (though they do end up at legendary eventually) Sure Strike was one of the main way to make use of those spells.

Allowing potency runes to apply to spell attack rolls wouldn't be as big of an accuracy boost as using Sure Strike was (especially against higher AC). It might not necesseraly put on staves but it's likely the simplest way to do it.
R
In either the GM Core or Player Core 1 (or both) section about staves (GM Core page 278) or casting attack spells (PC1 page 303)

GMCore: A magical staff is an indispensable accessory for a spellcaster. A staff is tied to a person during a preparation process, after which the preparer, and only the preparer, can use the staff to produce magic or amplify their own. The spells that can be cast from a staff are listed in bullet points organized by rank. Staves can be found in multiple types, with more powerful types containing more spells—such a staff always contains the spells of all lower-level types of the staff, in addition to the spells listed in its own entry. All magical staves have the staff trait and can be etched with weapon fundamental runes, the effect of potency runes etched on a staff applies to the preparer's spell attack rolls.

PC1: Some spells require you to succeed at a spell attack roll to affect the target. This is usually because they require you to precisely aim a ray or otherwise make an accurate attack. A spell attack roll is compared to the target’s AC. Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, including a magical staff's potency rune and your multiple attack penalty, but not any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks. Spell attacks don’t deal any damage beyond what’s listed in the spell description. In rare cases, a spell might have you make some other type of attack, such as a weapon Strike. Such attacks use the normal rules and attack bonus for that type of attack.

Second is regarding Magus:

Issue: there is an issue regarding the community perception of using spellstrike with focus spells as a way to get around the limitations of the class. It has become so common it very much reminds me of the playtest times of loading a staff of divination to spam True Strike on spellstrike as much as possible.
The main issue is that it doesn't work with a lot of the class' features and feats that explicitely call for using spell slots, or explicitely ban cantrips and focus spells.

Erratas:
Option 1- Remove the restriction to focus spells and/or cantrips not working with those features so they remain desirable, or give them a partial effect (like Sustaining Steel giving only the spell rank as a heal for cantrips and focus spells).

Option 2- Rewrite Spellstrike to not function with focus spells anymore. Potentially compensate with allowing any focus spell to recharge Spellstrike instead of solely Conflux Spells. Making them desirable and versatile without warping the class' balance around them sidestepping its design.

Magus got slightly buffed indirectly with the change to Refocus rules, this made it more flexible to use conflux spells more liberaly but mainly it made the psychic dip soar even higher as a constantly recommended option.

Perpdepog wrote:

I wonder if Pathfinder, which ever edition it is on by then, will do something crossover-y with WWII nine years from now.

As interested as I'd be in seeing it for the equipment, I frankly doubt Paizo would be willing to, and justifiably so. Gonna be hard to write a WW2 story without nazi characters, and nazis are not exactly a topic that will lead to fun experience for many, especially when at least one person might have to play the nazi.

Or you might have the opposite problem with someone who enjoys playing it a little too much

That's my reasoning yes. Plus helps reinforce the identity of a more complete merge of the martial and magical discipline.

There's a couple different things I'd like to see, personally:

Magus...

I've been advocated for so long for Magus to get the ability to recharge spellstrikes on successful skill actions relevant to their study or as feats. Be it shove, trip, disarm, feint, hide, grapple, or even stuff like successful medicine check to treat wounds as a feat. Same as magus analysis on retrictions.

Otherwise I hope to see Magus just get more feats, not more hybrid studies (though those are always neat to see) but more feats for the class overall, regardless of what study you're using.
More stuff related to arcane cascade, new attack options that let you do interresting strikes outside of spellstriking and make being in cascade more desirable.

Things such as a Splash damage strike, one that gives a status penalty to saves against the next spell affecting the target (yours or someone else's), reducing elemental resistances, combining manoeuvers with a strike like a magically flavored Knockdown feat that'd synergise with Inexorable Iron and the ability to recharge spellstrike on a successful trip for example.

Kalaam wrote:

SoM reprint where the useless pages are just filled with bunch of new stuff for the two classes....

Kinda what I'm thinking... Wondering if that's why the book's title hasn't even been announced. I can see them being hesitant on how to announce the book. Is it a remastered SoM? Is it a new book? Meh...kinda both (?)

Honestly I kind of doubt it wil be a reprint of it since if they do that it'll be so much new content for free for those who already have the pdf.

SoM reprint where the useless pages are just filled with bunch of new stuff for the two classes....

Thanks, I had missed on DA getting its reprint.
So yeah only those two missing, from a book that likely can't "just" get a reprint given all the lore stuff that would need to be rewrote (spell schools and stuff)

So really hoping for stuff

I also really hope we get the remasterization of the SoM classes.
If I recall the only classes that haven't gotten that kind of pass are the SoM and Dark Archives ones ?

For the love of Nethys I hope for magus rework, been thinking about options for that so darn much. (and again, it was tons of fun to do, thanks everyone who was in those threads :D)

I aggree that unleash psyche is something to keep, maybe expand on a bit.

I honestly really enjoy the ebb and flow, in concept at least. Releasing insane power spikes and then "crashing down" for a few rounds after that.

Honestly I could see the dedication getting nerfed, not giving access to the basic amps of the psychic cantrips (but still able to use the ones from feats).

If Secrets of Magic gets an errata it'll be pretty sizeable given the amount of OGL content to scrap and stuff that was already moved to Core 1/2, Rival Academies and Howl of the Wild.
But maybe it'd be good to give more room to add things and write new lore, even if it'd be a hassle to keep the page count.

The one book that might get scuffed is SoM because of how much would need to be scrapped and filled in with new content, so it's being spread about in new books.
What I hope is that all of its content will get the treatment, including lore and classes.

More of the content of secret of magic brought to remaster. Lot of lore has to be rewritten so I don't expect the book to just get a pass. I just hope its ideas and all can be brought over in a future book.

A book focused on just adding feats to all classes (or just non-core classes) without it being subclass specific would also be neat eventually.

Let's really hope then lol
We're getting a new subclass already, if it continues the trend of its feats specifying "when using a spell that isn't a cantrip or focus spell" maybe that'll give us an indication of the direction they'll go for

So impossible being like a super class heavy book with little of anything else ?
Guess it could be called Impossible Magics lol

Plus with how much stuff like some spells and all were remastered in CRBs etc, and lore stuff to remove/change, this might give some free pages for Magus and Summoner !

Saw some people share lists of updates to Gunslinger and Inventor in the G&G reprint, and tbh this makes me a bit hopeful.

There is but it requires more system knowledge. knowing of items or archetypes that enables them. It's not evident within the class itself and that's a bit of the issue

Yeah let's hope.
At least we might get some spells or items geared for it too.

Very curious about all the stuff about magic !

Getting a new Magus hybrid study is also nice to see, though I really hope there might be more class wide feats and stuff for the class as a whole and not just a level 4 and 10 feat related to the new study.

So apparently we're getting one or two new hybrid studies again? color me surprised !
Let's see if it gives any indication of future direction.

What I really hope for is also feats for the class overall and not just hybrid study exclusive ones

There is potential in that.
While I don't think we'll see Magus go this far, some of the idea could be drawn upon for a remaster pass.
The concept to its fullest though, I think I could see another class go for it (so with another core feature than spellstrike), maybe call it the Warfarer or something. (I'm being cheeky here but I do think the concept could make for a fun class)

Some of those new actions could be follow up to other strikes (press trait and all) or reactions to successful or failed strikes (not reactions as in, using your reaction but... you get it)

Maybe, if more focus spells aren't added to the class itself.
I aggree to an extent but also looking longer term: magus doesn't get new stuff very often.
Until recently with the latest errata, only a few spells were really cool to see added in new books to be used with magus (new attack spells or more battlemage oriented ones like blazing dive).
With that change, all focus spell addition can be a potential addition to different character concepts.
It could be interresting, even if only theoritically, to see what Magus could be if their "generic ranged/utility/normal" spells in combat are focus spells from the class or archetypes and their slotted spells are their heavy hitting combat altering daily ressource. Either their nova, or their big buffs or Aoes etc. That's kind of bandaidy tho'
Maybe it'd be too close to Psychic.

I'm not fond of that idea, it feels convoluted. It'd essentially be "roll Gouging Claw/Telekinetic Projectile like you would a spellstrike but without weapon rune and only spell damage, if you hit you recharge". Its weird that only then the martial proficiency is applied, where it's supposed to be the point of spellstrike, you get me?

I have suggested several options to make those turns more interresting, notably by expanding on what ArcCsd allows you to do (either as basic features or through feats giving you new strike options outside of spellstrike, could also have purely movement or utility options in there)

Maybe making all focus spells recharge (but remove the ability to spellstrike with them) could allow off turns to cast a focus spell from any source for its own benefits (ranged attack, sure, but also support or control) and recharge your spellstrike to prepare for the next round.

In a sense having recharge options and tools remains good though.
Even if it's only when spellstriking with more than cantrips, if you invest in staves, wands, scrolls or an archetype there is a lot of spells you might use that don't need to be top rank damage spells (telekinetic maneuver, slow, fear, gust of wind etc)
Then having tools to more easily recharge would remain very useful.
Maybe an auto recharge on certain skills based on subclass would then be too good, but conflux spells and some feats you can pick based on your playstyle would certainly be welcome.

It might work, would just have to see what more options would be available.
It certainly would allow more strikes from archetypes to be there (press ones etc) especially 1action ones.

Guess I just like the looping aspects lol, feels rewarding within the design itself. A matter of personnal preference I suppose.

It would have to come with a remove of focus spellstrikes though.
Since you'd only need to recharge after non-cantrips, you could easily nova with one during a fighter, recharge and stick to cantrips afterward.
It kinds of diminishes the value of conflux spells quite a bit, since they moreso allow you to sustain than to burst.

Kalaam wrote:

I wonder how much things would change if spellstrike cantrip didn't require to recharge. It might make turns very samey still if no other options exist within the class. Kind of like Starlit Span.

I'm personally very much in favor of removing the recharge requirement when Spellstriking with a cantrip, and believe it would actually make turns less samey overall. I think this can be broken down into two cases:

If you're playing a melee Magus, you'd actively work towards landing a Spellstrike whenever possible, which would be your best-case scenario. However, because fighting in melee will often force you to spend actions doing other things, such as moving or simply recovering from certain conditions, your turns will still change quite a bit, and there will be turns where you still won't be able to Spellstrike.

If you're playing a Starlit Span Magus, you'd still be Spellstriking every round as normal, but at least your third action would be freed up to do something different each time, creating more variation from one turn to the next. The frequency limitation on sure strike also means you wouldn't just be able to buff your Spellstrike every round either.

So whether you'd be playing melee or ranged, you'd still have varied turns in my opinion, albeit for different reasons.

It's true that it does open up some stuff, going for a trip before a spellstrike would be easier to do.

But then, if the need for recharge become so rare (since you'd have 4 slots for spellstrike that would require it afterward), is there any need for a lot of recharge tools ? Recharging with focus spells becomes trivial when you'll likely do it once per fight.
I'm afraid it might lead to a less dynamic flow overall, less interraction between the class' mechanics.
Which is already a problem in some aspects.

Kalaam wrote:

Crossing fingers for a SoM one too lol

Though very curious to see what might change

The odds of Secrets of Magic getting a reprint in its current state are low. Considering:

1. Several pages of lore regarding the old D&D schools of magic that are no longer valid.

2. Several of the options presented in the book have been reprinted in other books:
- Elementalist got reprinted in RoE
- Runelord is set to appear in Rival Academies
- Several spells got reprinted across Player Core and Player Core 2.

If they have to replace the reprinted/OGL content, we would be looking at a completely different book.

Then again, what do I know?

Maybe, tho the freed up space would give some to new content and leeway for rework of Magus and Summoner.

I wonder how much things would change if spellstrike cantrip didn't require to recharge. It might make turns very samey still if no other options exist within the class. Kind of like Starlit Span.

Oh yeah I aggree that a channel smite cleric feels a bit like magus lite but without all the clunk.

I'm not thinking of different damage type as much as rider effect on some spells.

Outside of the top 2 slots though the smite damage shouldn't be above a spellstrike cantrip.

But again yes, the magus needs some more stuff (and not just more damage. Like you could make it so arcane cascade make it so when you spellstrike you get the spell rank as bonus damage, or double if its from a spell slot, but that wouldn't change the underlying issues)

Well Channel Smite is locked to a single spell and damage type (well vitality or void if you use Heal or Harm).
So it's much, much more limited than spellstrike in that regard.

And Magus can do it with cantrips which will be better than what the warpriest can dish out without expanding a spell slot.

But yes spellstrike and arcane cascade have become too clunky compared to a lot of other similar abilities (panache, gunslinger's firearms, kineticist's channel elements, examplar's immanences etc and even Runesmith's playtest version.)

It doesn't necesseraly needs to be changed much itself, but it needs more support than just adding properties to it through feats. More ways to juggle it and play with the action economy.

Crossing fingers for a SoM one too lol

Though very curious to see what might change

It'd be a tiny change that would be nice to get yes.

Also going mad over seeing Treasure Vault getting a remastered printing but no news for Secrets of Magic yet lol

Did a quick check at level 8:
Two successful strikes with arcane cascade is behind by 1 damage on average.

At level 15:
It's exactly equal on average.

So looks like overall with cascade its just dependant on what the situation in really.

I don't think you can get more damage with just two strikes than with spellstrike (especially using spell slots) without it being horribly unbalanced.
Two successful hits isn't that hard to achieve, and if the idea is that those should surpass a spellstrike cantrip...why use spellstrike to begin with outside of your slotted spells. (for damage at least)
Sure there would be different usecases (against high ac ennemy, betting on a single spellstrike with your best accuracy might be better than trying two different attacks).

But then that additional damage would also apply to spellstrike itself.

For two strikes to surpass/equal spellstrike the damage bonus from Arcane Cascade should be equivalent to a giant instinct barbarian.

Arcane Cascade should be buffed yes, but by expanding on the concept and attack options it provides. Not just by making it deal +18 damage. (That's barbarian's final rage damage bonus for giant instinct btw. It'd go 6, 10, 18 by that progression.)

This is just way too much.

As a feat that gives you a special flourish strike that increases in damage based on Arcane Cascade's progression ? Sure why not. A pseudo spellstrike thing that uses Arcane Cascade instead of a spell. Like a 2 action strike that deals X damage based on weapon specialization or arcane cascade bonus. Like 5 times the arcane cascade bonus or whatever. (that'd make a clean 5, 10, 15)

It's pretty different from playtest spellstrike.

The only thing in common is you can choose to strike and roll the attack spell normaly as an option, but unless you want to target two different creatures there's no point in doing it.

Otherwise I don't see the similarity.
There no "holding the charge" thing etc, spellstriking still works as it does now too.

Its just opening up the technique to more than just raw damage like support for allies, self buff, battlefield control etc by delaying the 3rd action to recharge and at the risk of losing the spell on a crit failed attack if you use the strike first.
But you can still spellstrike normally with attack spells.

So I don't really see the problem.

How much damage to AC do you think would make it worthwhile ?
Personnaly I hardly see any amount that would unless it enables more options in your actions.
Arcane Cascade could add a flat +10 damage it wouldn't really change much to your playstyle. It would only make the non spellstrike turns more bearable.

Kalaam wrote:

Yeah, obviously not everything can or should be ported.

But it gives idea of what the class fantasy originaly was and what could yet be implemented that feels lacking.

Like the suggestion I had for spell combat

Right but my thing is if they are bringing classes forward and changing them to fit the new system then it doesn't make sense to try and ask for them to go backwards. That can be limiting to and for the class.

I mean have you read the suggestion itself ?

Basically as a replacement our feat chain out of Expansive Spellstrike.
It lets you choose to cast the spell before the strike when doing a spellstrike, or just not channel it through the weapon. When you do so, you can use any spell as it is essentially cast "normally" and aim at any target valid for it (you, allies, ennemies, areas) you just don't get any of the benefits from weapon accuracy for attack spells, or things like that.

Essentially all you get is the action division of Spellstrike, on any spell you want, and still have to recharge afterward.

It reproduces the uniqueness of 1e spell combat in 2e by making it a unique blend of attack and magic that only the magus can pull of. And because it can be any spell, you can have a lot of different characters using it. Have you gotten spells from cleric to support allies ? Now you can do it while you're attacking an ennemy.

You'll still need to recharge spellstrike with an action or conflux spell (or any focus spell if we try the suggestion from earlier) but on that turn you do get a lot of possibilities.

My ideal fix would be a tiny bump to arcane cascade damage and powerful two action activities (from subclass and feats) for the magus that added in the recharge action for free if you're in cascade. I think that might incentivise more non spell striking turns. Laughing shadow getting to strike from 10 feet away, then hide, and recharge. An indomitable iron getting to strike, shove/trip, and recharge. Etc etc. Stuff to incentivise varied magus turns. The third action remaining on those turns would be used for whatever

There have been quite a few suggestions in that direction. I think too it'd add a lot to the turn to turn variety of the class.

I suggested that one or 2 skill actions per subclass trigger a recharge on success (once per target) and some feats could synergize with it.
Like Inexorable iron recharges on successful shoves or trips if you're in ArCsd.

However I don't really see how adding extra damage to cascade would be really useful to the class' gameplay.
And then if there's a Knockdown like feat (with a magical spin lets say, if it requires arcane cascade) that is a Strike+Trip roll at same MAP for 2 actions, on a success you would also recharge here, or on any action that result in a sucessful trip in its text.

Yeah, obviously not everything can or should be ported.
But it gives idea of what the class fantasy originaly was and what could yet be implemented that feels lacking.

Like the suggestion I had for spell combat

But that's the only thing.

There isn't any other way your martial side supports your magical side, that's what I'm saying.

Compare to 1e feats and magus arcana that had more stuff for that (Riving Strike and so on)

I think forcing the use of cascade to be able to use the compression of the conflux spells would just cause more friction.

It's not really encouraging players to use it and stay in it as much as forcing their hand.

Giving more abilities unrelated to spellstrike that can be used when in the stance would be more encouraging I think.

That's quite a lot of additional steps, i'm not sure it would really change things for the better.

It'd make recharging even more action intensive.
Because for that you need to first enter the stance, then use the conflux spells/cantrips (if they still recharge)
This is way more combursome this way.

Plus those higher feats are definitely way too necessary. Sure they are very high level (18/20 is about when you can get the "quickened to recharge spellstrike" feat) but until then it actually takes less actions to just do the normal 1 action recharge.

Well all the studies already get something from being in the stance.
That something might be buffed up on some of them. And sure, maybe at certain levels there could be another bump.
But I don't think just having more damage on cascade will make it much more fun to use. I won't change the way you play by itself.

Inexorable should get that benefit from the getgo, it's too "gameplay defining" to be a later feature.

For the rest really there isn't much you can improve at a higher level change tbh. At least can't think of one.

Twisting Treet already gives you increased damage, traits etc from the subclass alone, the cascade allows you to benefit from whichever set of traits you like at any point since you can swap grip as a free action as you attack. Can't really add much to that that is a continuation of the concept.
Same with Brocade, it already gives a lot and you can hardly change it without it being too good. Like if you change the disarm or grapple follow up to a reaction that's super strong.

I don't think using your spell proficiency would be good for that honestly.
For that you already have the Telekinetic manoeuver spell, plus it'll just be worse than using the actual skills.
Maybe allowing a choice but then it might also be too good.

Enterring the cascade to recharge might indeed "force" enterring it only after spellstriking to maximise its usefulness. That's a bit why my initial suggestion was that you can end Arcane Cascade as a free action to recharge spellstrike. It differs the recharge aspect to later, at the cost of losing the benefits and having to enter it again.

The worry of forcing a playstyle too much is valid. Maybe having those as feats instead would be better, but also kinda of feel like a tax. Like "at level 2, use your feat to choose how you wanna be able to compress the recharge action". I don't think a numerical bonus would be needed there though, just the recharge benefit, and in some cases facilitating the use of the skill (Allowing Trip/Shove with a two handed weapon when in AC for Inexorable Iron for example)
There must be some kind of balance somewhere, maybe a feat that lets you pick another study's recharge skill. (kind of like how different casters or martials have a feat to gain some/all the benefits of another subclass. Like bard, druid, ranger)
And then some more additional options in the feats like Recharging on a successful First Aid/Treat Wound, or on a successful Bon mot. Etc etc

We'd have to list all the suggestions to more recharge options and see what combinations work. Because I doubt all can be kept.
It also depends on what nerfs are put in, like if the Focus Spell synergy is removed, this opens up more space.
Etc etc

Athletics and acrobatics are some of the most common skills for martials that fit hybrid studies because well... those are the most direct "martial" skills.
And having a recharge feature (or anything) relying on other skills like intimidation and so on might be an issue because of stats and MAD and all.

You can divide things up accross specific actions within those skills:

For example Inexorable Iron could get Shove and Trip while Laughing Shadow gets Feint and Disarm. Could also get Dirty trick or other stuff based on Thievery.
I mean Aloof Firmament gives you the benefits of a feat while in the stance, a revamped Laughing Shadow could give you Dirty Trick while in the stance.

Would have to see which subclass would fit Demoralize the most, or more niche actions like Seek.
Hide and Sneak are also valid. But the issue is you'd automatically know if you've hidden from someone if that recharge spellstrike, so I guess it'd have to be something like just rolling to hide recharges, unless you roll a nat 1. But then the immunity applies to every ennemies who was observing you when you hid. That'd only be once per fight then, but given it'd most likely be for Starlit Span, which already has an easy time recharging spellstrike, it wouldn't be much of an issue really.

It's one option yes. Good idea.
It's one way to get around the problem.

Guess this does make it a standard of the class cantrip selection. If you need to move over 50 ft.
You'd still end up not doing anything but moving and enterring the stance tho.

I mean sure, a +5 foot bonus for a double strike for 2 action is a neat cantrip when you need some extra movement but what does it have to do with what we were talking about ?