Let's talk about some niche, unexpected, weird, or fun builds.


Advice

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I can't stop giggling at the idea of someone stabbing their opponent with a sword while furiously blowing into a harmonica.


graystone wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
thistledown wrote:
Note on Barbars dipping Spellcaster. The only spells that require concentration are those with verbal components. Take those out, and you're left with... 13 spells to pick from. That's if you count single-action heal & harm. But hey, you get Jump at 1, Invisibility and Silence at 2, and a few higher level options (3@3, 2@5, 1@6, 2@8)
I think you can also use the Bard spells under the rule on component substitution that replace verbal with playing an instrument (page 303). And the composition spells since they only require using the Performance skill, which does not have the Concentration trait.

I'd ask your GM, the only standard use of the Performance skill is the Perform action, which does have the concentrate trait. I for one would not allow you to do an action that includes aspects of performance without including that trait.

PC: "I play an instrument while raging."

GM: "You can't, perform action has the concentrate trait."

PC: "Aha, I cast a spell by playing an instrument! That doesn't have the concentrate trait, as it isn't an actual Perform action!"

GM: "Get out of my house."

"If you’re a bard Casting a Spell from the occult tradition while holding a musical instrument, you can play that instrument to replace any material, somatic, or verbal components the spell requires by using the instrument as a focus component instead. Cast a Spell gains the auditory trait if you make this substitution. Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument when making this substitution." Core Rulebook pg. 303

plus
"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so choose." component substitutions sidebar, Core Rulebook pg. 303
So using a musical instrument has the auditory and manipulate traits only as per the spell casting rules. You can rule otherwise but the actual rules never say that you are making a performance roll or using the perform skill when substituting.

Yes, I know all of this. But it's clear that it's an oversight.

Liberty's Edge

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I want a bard who tapdances for both visual and auditory tags.

Silver Crusade

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Garretmander wrote:
I can't stop giggling at the idea of someone stabbing their opponent with a sword while furiously blowing into a harmonica.

Yo

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The character concept that had me explore this is a shanty singer rousing mayhem in sailors' taverns and on ships, singing and playing all through the fights while hitting left and right.


Xenocrat wrote:
graystone wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
thistledown wrote:
Note on Barbars dipping Spellcaster. The only spells that require concentration are those with verbal components. Take those out, and you're left with... 13 spells to pick from. That's if you count single-action heal & harm. But hey, you get Jump at 1, Invisibility and Silence at 2, and a few higher level options (3@3, 2@5, 1@6, 2@8)
I think you can also use the Bard spells under the rule on component substitution that replace verbal with playing an instrument (page 303). And the composition spells since they only require using the Performance skill, which does not have the Concentration trait.

I'd ask your GM, the only standard use of the Performance skill is the Perform action, which does have the concentrate trait. I for one would not allow you to do an action that includes aspects of performance without including that trait.

PC: "I play an instrument while raging."

GM: "You can't, perform action has the concentrate trait."

PC: "Aha, I cast a spell by playing an instrument! That doesn't have the concentrate trait, as it isn't an actual Perform action!"

GM: "Get out of my house."

"If you’re a bard Casting a Spell from the occult tradition while holding a musical instrument, you can play that instrument to replace any material, somatic, or verbal components the spell requires by using the instrument as a focus component instead. Cast a Spell gains the auditory trait if you make this substitution. Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument when making this substitution." Core Rulebook pg. 303

plus
"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can
...

It’s doubtfully an oversight and more of an exception.


Xenocrat wrote:
Yes, I know all of this. But it's clear that it's an oversight.

I'll have to disagree it's clearly an oversight: you aren't "using your talents to impress a crowd or make a living", and that's what perform is: hitting all the rote notes for a spell might sound absolutely horrible and still activate the spell as the substitution isn't a performance. The fact that it ADDS 2 traits the skill doesn't seems pretty clear to me it's a different kind of action.

For me, the substitution seems like the Interact Activation Component from Activate an Item: "This component works like the Interact basic action. Activate an Item gains the manipulate trait and requires you to use your hands, just like with any Interact action."

"Interact Single Action
Manipulate
Source Core Rulebook pg. 470
You use your hand or hands to manipulate an object or the terrain. You can grab an unattended or stored object, open a door, or produce some similar effect. You might have to attempt a skill check to determine if your Interact action was successful." This sounds 100% like playing an instrument when there is no skill roll needed.

For instance, if you use a horn of blasting you only use an interact action, not perform even though it's an instrument.


graystone wrote:


"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so...

Just a quick rules question regarding this, does this mean that for Bardbarian, you can have your horn stowed away at the start while you cleave foes with your greatsword, draw it out, cast, say Inspire Courage and stow it all as one action?

Or is it an action to retrieve, an action to cast the spell and an action to stow?

prototype00


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Rysky wrote:
Garretmander wrote:
I can't stop giggling at the idea of someone stabbing their opponent with a sword while furiously blowing into a harmonica.
Yo

That's good too, but I was thinking more like:

Bardbarian: *Stabs target*

*Loud, discordant honking noise*

Target: *Forgets the bardbarian stabbed him and wonders why he's bleeding*

Bardbarian: *Stabs him again*


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prototype00 wrote:
graystone wrote:


"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so...

Just a quick rules question regarding this, does this mean that for Bardbarian, you can have your horn stowed away at the start while you cleave foes with your greatsword, draw it out, cast, say Inspire Courage and stow it all as one action?

Or is it an action to retrieve, an action to cast the spell and an action to stow?

prototype00

No, "Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument when making this substitution." It's an action to draw and an extra to stow though you can get around the stow by dropping it. Secondly, you need to find/get a one handed instrument to hold on to the greatsword and the only one currently is the horn of blasting.


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graystone wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
graystone wrote:


"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so...

Just a quick rules question regarding this, does this mean that for Bardbarian, you can have your horn stowed away at the start while you cleave foes with your greatsword, draw it out, cast, say Inspire Courage and stow it all as one action?

Or is it an action to retrieve, an action to cast the spell and an action to stow?

prototype00

No, "Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument when making this substitution." It's an action to draw and an extra to stow though you can get around the stow by dropping it. Secondly, you need to find/get a one handed instrument to hold on to the greatsword and the only one currently is the horn of blasting.

How do bards attack with their weapons (or do they not?) if they want to use musical instruments if they are all (sans the horn) two handed? (More importantly for this consideration, how would the Bardbarian?)


prototype00 wrote:
How do bards attack with their weapons (or do they not?) if they want to use musical instruments if they are all (sans the horn) two handed? (More importantly for this consideration, how would the Bardbarian?)

4 hands would help... I personally hope we'll see some 1 handed mundane musical instruments or items to hold musical instruments [like a drum carrier, harmonica holder, ect] that lower hands needed to one. 2 hands makes it quite a juggling act IMO. It's the one thing I really dislike about the bard and one that I don't understand as it seems intentional.

The only current viable method IMO is unarmed attacks: Animal Instinct [Bear(Jaws 1d10), Bull(Horn 1d10), Cat(Jaw 1d10), Deer(Antler 1d8), Frog(Jaws 1d10), Shark(Jaws 1d10), Snake(Fangs 1d10), Wolf(Jaws 1d10)]. You can strum away and still chew/gore and get your full rage bonus.


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Stupid good build: 18th level maestro bard with Inspire Heroics and Eternal Composition (for an extra action towards compositions).

In one round you spend one action on True Target (for one round everyone gets True Strike on their first attack against the designated target), Inspire Heroics boosting Inspire Courage (+2/3 on attacks/damage), and Synesthesia (clumsy 3, plus other effects, for 1 round even on a successful save).

Total of an effective +5-6 on everyone's attacks all round, plus that reroll on your first attack. (I assume someone else made your target flat-footed for a +7-8 vs base AC.) Crits everywhere, plus a bit of bonus damage from your composition. Even someone's weak summon might get a couple of hits!

You can do this three rounds in a row before blowing all your spells and focus.

Offer not valid against targets immune to Synesthesia because it's a mental effect.


prototype00 wrote:
graystone wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
graystone wrote:


"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so...

Just a quick rules question regarding this, does this mean that for Bardbarian, you can have your horn stowed away at the start while you cleave foes with your greatsword, draw it out, cast, say Inspire Courage and stow it all as one action?

Or is it an action to retrieve, an action to cast the spell and an action to stow?

prototype00

No, "Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument when making this substitution." It's an action to draw and an extra to stow though you can get around the stow by dropping it. Secondly, you need to find/get a one handed instrument to hold on to the greatsword and the only one currently is the horn of blasting.
How do bards attack with their weapons (or do they not?) if they want to use musical instruments if they are all (sans the horn) two handed? (More importantly for this consideration, how would the Bardbarian?)

a bardbarian could be animal instinct with bite or horn attack and still carry an instrument on his hands.

also, it's important to note that this is for casting actual spells, not for the compositions. you don't need an instrument for the compositions if you don't want to use one.

Instrument is used to replace somatic/material components (if you wish to, not necessary), while compostions are verbal only.

you could chant your way into battle as a barbarian


prototype00 wrote:
graystone wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
graystone wrote:


"A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so...

Just a quick rules question regarding this, does this mean that for Bardbarian, you can have your horn stowed away at the start while you cleave foes with your greatsword, draw it out, cast, say Inspire Courage and stow it all as one action?

Or is it an action to retrieve, an action to cast the spell and an action to stow?

prototype00

No, "Unlike the normal rules for a focus component, you can’t retrieve or stow the instrument when making this substitution." It's an action to draw and an extra to stow though you can get around the stow by dropping it. Secondly, you need to find/get a one handed instrument to hold on to the greatsword and the only one currently is the horn of blasting.
How do bards attack with their weapons (or do they not?) if they want to use musical instruments if they are all (sans the horn) two handed? (More importantly for this consideration, how would the Bardbarian?)

I suspect the intent is that instrument bards lean into the 10 level spellcasting and melee bards sing and dance to keep hands free. Or more simply, they do not attack while playing.


The only mechanical benefit of the instrument bard beyond getting rid of material components (a minor benefit that trades one hand free for no hands free) is that you can get a +3 item bonus on performance from a two handed magical instrument vs. only +2 on the dancer sash and actor's mask.

(You can also get +2 on the one handed Horn of Blasting, which is the worst option once you outlevel the DC on that one action sonic attack, which is pretty much immediately.)


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Xenocrat wrote:
The only mechanical benefit of the instrument bard beyond getting rid of material components (a minor benefit that trades one hand free for no hands free)

And trading the concentration trait for manipulate and auditory.


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graystone wrote:
prototype00 wrote:
How do bards attack with their weapons (or do they not?) if they want to use musical instruments if they are all (sans the horn) two handed? (More importantly for this consideration, how would the Bardbarian?)
4 hands would help...

Now I am envisioning a Skittermander bardbarian dual wielding an axe (weapon) and an axe (guitar) running around the battlefield furiously strumming death metal while swinging at and/or grappling opponents.

Which sounds like way too much fun.

So thanks for that.

EDIT: And probably the funniest part of this is that 'angry skittermander' is a fairly big oxymoron.


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You want stupid, meine fruende? I'll show you stupid. I'll show you the pinnacle of stupid.

Play an Elf. Take the Nimble Elf feat as well as the Fleet general feat. Base speed is now 40.

Play a Monk. Eventual +30 base speed for a Base of 70.

At level 1, take a Ki spell ability. Doesn't matter which one. Ki rush is more thematically appropriate however so that's what we'll go with!

Level 2 we take Barbarian MC Archetype.

Level 4 we take a a level 1 or two Barbarian feat. Doesn't really matter which one, but again sudden charge is thematically appropriate. Hurrah!

Level 6 we take Water Step so that we can now run across the surface of the water, just so long as we don't ever end our movement there. Spoilers, by the end of this, we wont.

Level 8 we take Advanced Fury to get a level 4 Barbarian feat. Take Fast Movement. Now our base speed is +10 while raging to a max of 80!

Level 10, Take Wind Jump. Ups our Ki pool to 2 and gives us a special Ki Focus spell that says that for 1 minute we get a Fly speed equal to our land speed but we have to end our turn on the ground or we fall. Hehe, that's cute.

Level 12, 14, 16, and 18 really don't matter at all. You can go get a stance, Ki Blast, some more specialized movement (unfortunately most of them other than Water Step, such as Wall Run are incompatible with what we're doing because of reasons I cannot divulge to the public just yet...it's because they are their own actions and not passive things.)

But at 20, you take Advanced Fury again and this time you take Furious Sprint.

For those poor uninitiated, Furious Sprint is a two action activity that allows you to stride 1 time up to 5 times your movement speed. Which at this point while you are raging is 80 x 5 for 400 feet. OR you can instead make it a 3 action activity for 8 times your movement speed. 80 x 8 is stupid a lot (psst...it's 640, just so you know).

Now here's the kicker. The beautiful, glorious kicker. Remember that Wind Jump thing we took at level 10? The one that gives you a fly speed but doesn't let you end your turn on not solid ground?

Furious Sprint says that you have to run in a straight line...it does not say that this line has to be parallel to the local force of gravity.

Now I want you to imagine a Monk Barbarian running 640 FEET THROUGH THE AIR WHILE SCREAMING IN UNBRIDLED RAGE AND FURY!!!

Soooo yeah...kinda stupid. Pretty much 100 percent pointless. Unless you specifically have a Castle wall that you need to climb and you can calculate at what angle you need to run in order to make the distance from the point from the ground to the point on the castle wall exactly 640 feet. Or if you have to cross a stupidly long canyon with no bridge.

Oh, or maybe you're in a densely packed forest so you can't run in a straight line but you want to get out of the way of a stupidly powerful Wizard's stupidly powerful fireball so you run straight up and out of their 500 foot range in one turn.

Or...you know, Treerazer or something, since I'm pretty sure nothing he's got can catch up to you at that point.

But hey, stupid as this may be who else can say that they can run 640 feet through the air in 6 seconds with just 1 Ki point or the same distance across the water with no Ki point at all?

Just make sure you jack up your Athletics to legendary so that you can guarantee that you are going to make those DC 30 Althletics check to not fall because 640 feet of falling damage is not fun to take. Or maybe it is, I don't know what sort of things you're into. No judgements here, I mean, I made this stupid monstrosity of a build.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
lordcirth wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Leotamer wrote:
Nethys anathema is choosing mundane means over magical ones, but you are whacking people with a stick in a very magical way.
You are correct; this character would be in a similar vein to the Nethys-aligned Magi that have been described in prior books. It's still really funny to me, though.
I think it could be considered anathema to whack anyone with the staff without Shillelagh active, though? Not sure if Divine Ally really counts, since you aren't applying any skill to it.

Use a Verdant Staff: It has the Shellelagh spell in it, and specifically can target itself, while normally you need to target a nonmagical club or staff.


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Grappling Barbarian.

Using the Animal Instinct for that delicious Shark/Ape Grapple propriety and Thrash then getting Monk dedication for Crushing Grab and later Whirlwind Throw.

Now you can Grapple something with the first action doing strength damage, Thrash it with the second one and then yeet with Whirlwind Throw with the last action.

Titan Whrestler of course so nothing is big enough to escape the hug power and assurance athletics make minions easy target for hugs.

Flurry of Blows + Flurry of maneuvers is an good option but I would not use 2 feats for a single -5 attack.


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Vali Nepjarson wrote:
Soooo yeah...kinda stupid. Pretty much 100 percent pointless. Unless you specifically have a Castle wall that you need to climb and you can calculate at what angle you need to run in order to make the distance from the point from the ground to the point on the castle wall exactly 640 feet. Or if you have to cross a stupidly long canyon with no bridge.

Do you want wendigos? Because I'm pretty sure this is how you get wendigos.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I really kind of want to make a bard/monk (Dragon Style) for two-handed instruments plus brütal kicks to the face.


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thistledown wrote:
Sadly, you can no longer get the advanced bloodline spells through multiclassing, and the build can't be made until level 12 when Spirit's Wrath is available.

But you can get the advanced Bloodline Spells. Only the basic bloodline spell is a special MC feat, the next two bloodline spells are available through normal sorcerer feats (level 6 and 10, so you can even get both).


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Fun Barbarian maneuver build. Brutal Bully adds doing strength+specialization damage to successful shoves and trips. Awesome Blow has no MAP and is a 1-action athletics attempt to shove and trip someone at once. So you do 2×(Str+Spec) damage at no MAP on a success, and still get Str+Spec on a failure. Furthermore, knocking an enemy prone means flying creatures fall, and unlike other anti-air attacks it doesn't prevent falling damage (though they can still arrest a fall). Grab Dragon Wings and knock enemies out of the sky.


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prototype00 wrote:
How do bards attack with their weapons (or do they not?) if they want to use musical instruments if they are all (sans the horn) two handed? (More importantly for this consideration, how would the Bardbarian?)

I spent like ten minutes trying to find a clip from a Swedish children's TV show called Trazan & Banarne, where one of the titular characters "punches" the other with a boxing glove mounted on a trombone. But alas, the only one I could find could only be viewed in Sweden anyway, so you're going to have to imagine the glory of early 80s kid's TV featuring dudes in tiger-striped pants yourselves.


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goblin champion with wolf companion(they can take wolves as mounts)

it stacks pretty well with your champion reaction so you can provoke with him, flank and protect him...heal him...

Dark Archive

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Micheal Smith wrote:

Dwarf fighter or barbarian with toughness and Mountain’s Stoutness. You get to add your level in HPs 2 times on top of the already high hit points from the classes and if you have a high con that helps. Then the recovery save is reduced by 4.

You could even take diehard and make it dying 5 instead of 4 and be one tough dwarf.

With the barbarian, you could take renewed vigor keep getting temp hit points (assuming they are gone before you go again) and make it more difficult to kill.=

Love it. I was playing around with the "Champion of Life/Vitality" which is all about restoring your own HP. I'd run them as a avatar of Pharasma, with the ability to get temp HP/restore real HP in various ways per battle as 1 action items. They'd have a blade ally for disrupting and the spirit totem for ghost touch. They have the Toughness/Mountains Stoutness + 15 HP from the multiclass resiliency feat. They have lay on hands, death's call, renewed vigor, and Victorious Vigor for healing or temp hp top up. As well with the orc's Ferocity they can avoid going below 0 (not sure if that is a death sentence or not though). At L19 they get the hero's defiance to really save them from death. They won't have raging resiliency, but they will get the armor specialization effects and can sit in plate. The champion NG redeemer reaction also punishes the GM for not attacking you and your HP sink.

Ancestory
1 - Half Orc

Heritage
1 - Skilled Heritage (Society)

Background
1 - Warrior (STR + FREE, Intimidating Glare)

Diety
1 - Pharasma

Class
1 - Champion

Cause
1 - Redeemer

Class Feats
1 - Deities Domain - Death (Death's Call)
2 - Barbarian Dedication (Spirit)
4 - ARCHETYPE1 (Basic Fury - Sudden Charge)
6 - Instinct Ability (Spirit)
8 - Attack of Opportunity (From Barbarian)
10 - Devoted Focus (get back your death's call/lay on hands top ups)
12 - ARCHETYPE1 (Barbarian Resiliency +12 hp)
14 - ?
16 - ARCHETYPE1 (Advanced Fury - Renewed Vigor, +3 HP)
18 - ?
20 - ?

General Feats
3 - Toughness
7 - Adopted
11 - Diehard
15 - ?
17A - ?
19 - ?

Ancestory Feats
1 - Half Orc -Orc Ferocity
3 - Natural Ambition (Domain Initiate)
5 - Victorious Vigor
9 - Mountain Stoutness
13 - Incredible Ferocity
17 - ?


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More of a germ of an idea, but I have a concept of a Wizard who worships Nethys and multiclasses into Champion so that he can stomp around in Full Plate. He’d probably also pick up Lay on Hands, cause why not have a wizard who can heal?


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Maximum skill enhancer:

6th level Bard with Inspire Competence(2nd), Wizard Dedication(4th), and Arcane School Spell (6th) for the divination focus spell Diviner's Sight.

Guidance (one action), Inspire Competence (one action), and Diviner's Sight (one action) provide a +1 insight bonus to a skill for one round, a competence bonus to a skill from your aid check that can be higher than +1, and a free roll on the Diviner's Sight that the recipient can choose to take for his skill check or discard and roll again.

At high levels you're providing a reliable +5 skill bonus that stacks with their item bonus and a second chance reroll.

Shadow Lodge

masda_gib wrote:
thistledown wrote:
Sadly, you can no longer get the advanced bloodline spells through multiclassing, and the build can't be made until level 12 when Spirit's Wrath is available.
But you can get the advanced Bloodline Spells. Only the basic bloodline spell is a special MC feat, the next two bloodline spells are available through normal sorcerer feats (level 6 and 10, so you can even get both).

Hmm. Interesting. But you'd again need to be level 12, as the MC sorcerer only counts half your character level for prereqs, and Advanced Bloodline is level 6. And I'd have to take Basic potency first, which doesn't add much.

As all archtypes have the same caveat, yet no class has level 3 feats, it's very strange and disappointing that they put the "MC advanced feat" feats at level 6.


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Ventnor wrote:
More of a germ of an idea, but I have a concept of a Wizard who worships Nethys and multiclasses into Champion so that he can stomp around in Full Plate. He’d probably also pick up Lay on Hands, cause why not have a wizard who can heal?

Would Nethys approve of someone using mundane armor in his name? I think you'd need it to be at least +1 for it to not be anathema.


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lordcirth wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
More of a germ of an idea, but I have a concept of a Wizard who worships Nethys and multiclasses into Champion so that he can stomp around in Full Plate. He’d probably also pick up Lay on Hands, cause why not have a wizard who can heal?
Would Nethys approve of someone using mundane armor in his name? I think you'd need it to be at least +1 for it to not be anathema.

As long as you don't have an alternative you should be fine. The specific anathema is using mundane means over magical ones. If you never put mage armor in your spellbook you aren't choosing full plate over casting mage armor, you just can't cast mage armor. Similarly, if you don't take attack spells using a stick to kill enemies isn't choosing mundane means instead of magic ones, you don't have magic ones.


Paradozen wrote:
lordcirth wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
More of a germ of an idea, but I have a concept of a Wizard who worships Nethys and multiclasses into Champion so that he can stomp around in Full Plate. He’d probably also pick up Lay on Hands, cause why not have a wizard who can heal?
Would Nethys approve of someone using mundane armor in his name? I think you'd need it to be at least +1 for it to not be anathema.
As long as you don't have an alternative you should be fine. The specific anathema is using mundane means over magical ones. If you never put mage armor in your spellbook you aren't choosing full plate over casting mage armor, you just can't cast mage armor. Similarly, if you don't take attack spells using a stick to kill enemies isn't choosing mundane means instead of magic ones, you don't have magic ones.

Plus, the idea is to get a magic staff eventually.

And he'd still be totally casting attack spells and things of that nature.

Also, I wonder if wearing armor because you learned how to use it from Nethys's divine inspiration rather than learning how from a military academy would count?

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Changed thread title from "Let's talk about some stupid builds." to Let's talk about some ineffective builds."


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Sara Marie wrote:
Changed thread title from "Let's talk about some stupid builds." to Let's talk about some ineffective builds."

But sara, I'm pretty sure some of these were "stupid" as in stupidly good. Maybe change to strange builds instead of ineffective builds?


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I agree, a lot of these builds work fine, silly builds would be acceptable as well.


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Sara Marie wrote:
Changed thread title from "Let's talk about some stupid builds." to Let's talk about some ineffective builds."

Hey! who said they were ineffective!

(but seriously now, i think the intent of the thread isn't to build ineffective builds, but just weird/alternative/niche ones)


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Sara Marie wrote:
Changed thread title from "Let's talk about some stupid builds." to Let's talk about some ineffective builds."

That's... not what the thread is supposed to be about? The builds in this thread are under no obligation to be ineffective, they're just weird and outside the usual bounds of what you expect the class involved to do. If you feel stupid is the wrong word to use then that's your prerogative as a moderator, but if so then Kyrone's suggestion of "silly" would be far more appropriate.

To be honest when I saw that the title of my thread was changed my first thought was that it was a new thread someone had made to be a more cynical version of what this thread is for.


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Another good title for the thread might be "Let's talk about some unorthodox builds."


Is there any way a non-fighter character (with 8 str but mucho dx, 18+, rogue skill boosts to athletics and a way of getting a trip weapon through Gnome Weapon Familiarity - Kukri - and then boosting that weapon) will ever match a flat out fighter with 18 str as a trip-fighter build?

Is it pointless/ineffective to attempt try and build a tripper without maxing out the strength for athletics?

Is multiclassing in Fighter the only way to access Attack of Opportunity?

(Use of Ineffective in effect!)


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Unorthodox, Unexpected, Silly, or even "Fun" are closer to the intent of the thread than "ineffective."


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Legoman wrote:

Is there any way a non-fighter character (with 8 str but mucho dx, 18+, rogue skill boosts to athletics and a way of getting a trip weapon through Gnome Weapon Familiarity - Kukri - and then boosting that weapon) will ever match a flat out fighter with 18 str as a trip-fighter build?

Is it pointless/ineffective to attempt try and build a tripper without maxing out the strength for athletics?

Is multiclassing in Fighter the only way to access Attack of Opportunity?

(Use of Ineffective in effect!)

there is a discussion on the rules section if "skill rolls with the Attack trait are attacks", the majority, backed by a playtest dev insight that "yes, you do use dex for tripping finesse weapons" believes that the answer is "yes".

in that case, a rogue will be as good as a fighter in tripping, since Skill proficiency has nothing to do with weapon proficiency and everyone gets expert/master/legendary at the same time.


shroudb wrote:
Legoman wrote:

Is there any way a non-fighter character (with 8 str but mucho dx, 18+, rogue skill boosts to athletics and a way of getting a trip weapon through Gnome Weapon Familiarity - Kukri - and then boosting that weapon) will ever match a flat out fighter with 18 str as a trip-fighter build?

Is it pointless/ineffective to attempt try and build a tripper without maxing out the strength for athletics?

Is multiclassing in Fighter the only way to access Attack of Opportunity?

(Use of Ineffective in effect!)

there is a discussion on the rules section if "skill rolls with the Attack trait are attacks", the majority, backed by a playtest dev insight that "yes, you do use dex for tripping finesse weapons" believes that the answer is "yes".

in that case, a rogue will be as good as a fighter in tripping, since Skill proficiency has nothing to do with weapon proficiency and everyone gets expert/master/legendary at the same time.

Thank you for the swift reply.

Will that be legal soon? Or will it be enough that it's on the forum as -intended as- legal?

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Thanks for clarifying folks! I've updated it to "Let's talk about some niche, unexpected, weird, or fun builds."


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Legoman wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Legoman wrote:

Is there any way a non-fighter character (with 8 str but mucho dx, 18+, rogue skill boosts to athletics and a way of getting a trip weapon through Gnome Weapon Familiarity - Kukri - and then boosting that weapon) will ever match a flat out fighter with 18 str as a trip-fighter build?

Is it pointless/ineffective to attempt try and build a tripper without maxing out the strength for athletics?

Is multiclassing in Fighter the only way to access Attack of Opportunity?

(Use of Ineffective in effect!)

there is a discussion on the rules section if "skill rolls with the Attack trait are attacks", the majority, backed by a playtest dev insight that "yes, you do use dex for tripping finesse weapons" believes that the answer is "yes".

in that case, a rogue will be as good as a fighter in tripping, since Skill proficiency has nothing to do with weapon proficiency and everyone gets expert/master/legendary at the same time.

Thank you for the swift reply.

Will that be legal soon? Or will it be enough that it's on the forum as -intended as- legal?

why you're asking me when a faq/errata will be out? how would i know lol?

as for it being legal or not, better talk it with your gm, some people will see it one way others another, if it's for pfs, then i don't have a clue since i don't play pfs


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I think we can be confident that the FAQs will not predate the return of the FAQ button (unless they've announced they're not doing that anymore?)


shroudb wrote:
Legoman wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Legoman wrote:

Is there any way a non-fighter character (with 8 str but mucho dx, 18+, rogue skill boosts to athletics and a way of getting a trip weapon through Gnome Weapon Familiarity - Kukri - and then boosting that weapon) will ever match a flat out fighter with 18 str as a trip-fighter build?

Is it pointless/ineffective to attempt try and build a tripper without maxing out the strength for athletics?

Is multiclassing in Fighter the only way to access Attack of Opportunity?

(Use of Ineffective in effect!)

there is a discussion on the rules section if "skill rolls with the Attack trait are attacks", the majority, backed by a playtest dev insight that "yes, you do use dex for tripping finesse weapons" believes that the answer is "yes".

in that case, a rogue will be as good as a fighter in tripping, since Skill proficiency has nothing to do with weapon proficiency and everyone gets expert/master/legendary at the same time.

Thank you for the swift reply.

Will that be legal soon? Or will it be enough that it's on the forum as -intended as- legal?

why you're asking me when a faq/errata will be out? how would i know lol?

as for it being legal or not, better talk it with your gm, some people will see it one way others another, if it's for pfs, then i don't have a clue since i don't play pfs

True. Thank you for pointing out that that line of questioning exists at least.


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So, here's another kind of ridiculous idea I had. Start as a Scoundrel Rogue, so that you can begin the game with 18 Charisma, choose an ancestry like Elf or Gnome (I prefer Gnome myself) that will get you an innate arcane or primal cantrip, multiclass into Sorcerer to pick up even more Cantrips and to increase your proficiency with your attack cantrips, and pick up the Magical Trickster feat at level 4.

The idea is that you are a Rogue who never attacks with a weapon. Instead, you have a cornucopia of different attacking cantrips that you can sneak attack with, which will also allow you to attack various enemy weaknesses and avoid enemy resistances that come up. Picking up Expert and Master spellcasting, in this case, is mainly to make your cantrip attacks as accurate as possible, although the extra utility and nova potential of your multiclass slots is a nice perk too.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that Arcane is probably the best spell list for this idea, since you get 6 different kinds of damaging cantrips for a variety of situations: Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Electric Arc, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, and Telekinetic Projectile. The Primal list lacks Chill Touch and Telekinetic Projectile.


Ventnor wrote:

So, here's another kind of ridiculous idea I had. Start as a Scoundrel Rogue, so that you can begin the game with 18 Charisma, choose an ancestry like Elf or Gnome (I prefer Gnome myself) that will get you an innate arcane or primal cantrip, multiclass into Sorcerer to pick up even more Cantrips and to increase your proficiency with your attack cantrips, and pick up the Magical Trickster feat at level 4.

The idea is that you are a Rogue who never attacks with a weapon. Instead, you have a cornucopia of different attacking cantrips that you can sneak attack with, which will also allow you to attack various enemy weaknesses and avoid enemy resistances that come up. Picking up Expert and Master spellcasting, in this case, is mainly to make your cantrip attacks as accurate as possible, although the extra utility and nova potential of your multiclass slots is a nice perk too.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that Arcane is probably the best spell list for this idea, since you get 6 different kinds of damaging cantrips for a variety of situations: Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Electric Arc, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, and Telekinetic Projectile. The Primal list lacks Chill Touch and Telekinetic Projectile.

Correct me if my read of this is wrong... Telekinetic Projectile uses a standard ranged attack roll, not a spell attack roll? Which makes it quite an odd creature.

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