Debelinho's page

Organized Play Member. 93 posts. No reviews. No lists. 1 wishlist. 3 Organized Play characters.


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Looking at the bard I can't help to think that whoever is playing this bard that they base their opinion on is doing a bad job...

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Mark Seifter wrote:

Some examples of things you will not ever get from multiclass (unless we make a significant mistake):

*Ranger's Hunter's Edge benefits
*Fighter's legendary weapon proficiency
*Barbarian's instinct specialization increased damage
*Monk or champion's legendary armor proficiency
*Rogue's full sneak attack advancement

All of these things either give you legendary in attacks or AC, or they give you a bunch of bonus damage or something that works out to a choice of accuracy, damage, or AC like Hunter's Edge, which work out to a decent balance between the classes. If you give out Hunter's Edge, say, fighter/barbarian/etc multiclass ranger is just vastly better than ranger, or pure fighter/barbarian/etc for that matter. Grabbing two of these via multiclass would just be a dominant option compared to not. Look for a bit more insight on this in the dual-classing rules in the GMG; doubling up on two of these sorts of options are one of the few things you have to really account for or figure out as a GM even in that system. Wizard/cleric? Tons of options, tons of staying power, huge flexibility, but your wizard and cleric abilities are each within the range a single-classed character could be. But double down on math boosts that combine faster than linearly and you have created a much more powerful character in one aspect, often offense, than could ever exist with one class.

only one thing bothers me regarding MC dedications....Rouge gives light armor prof, while fighter does nothing for that matter...considering fighter is the only one besides champion that even has all armors, that feels weird. If rouge ded was too weak without it, you could have given it a single skill increase instead....but more to the point, fighter should have had a choice between shield block or armor proficiency in it's dedication in addition.

Currently, martials can't benefit from fighter dedication whatsoever(just 1 skill)...while fighters can from other martial dedications

if you have cha at least 14, taking sorcerer dedication is much better than taking minor get extra skills if nothing else

and later you get an option to take basic and advanced magic(advanced magic gets you expert prof in magic attacks and DCs, even for your innate spells)

also, if you take magic sneak attack feat, consider making CHA your main stat....better feints, social skills and better spell attacks...casting non-attack cantrips(lake daze or electric arc or chill touch), doesn't raise your MAP, so combining it with your strike is strong, because both work on full bonus/DC, although you can't sneak attack with those spells...


Ikorus wrote:

Sorry, didnt notice that.

Actually didnt realize there even was a second edition. When did that happen? And is first edition still active here?

august, 2019

Castilliano wrote:

RAW, those actions do not reference your weapon proficiency + can be done via the weapon trait which does not reference weapon proficiency.

No proficiency involved (other than in Athletics) so you're good to go.

Awkward. Feels a bit weaselly, though since you do have to be good at Athletics and do have to be strong and/or dexterous to succeed, it's not like you aren't a proficient (or lucky) person. I could probably snag somebody's feet with a rope better than I could lash them for any significant damage, so it's not unrealistic. Same if I charge somebody with a maul in front of me. Much easier to Shove than swing & connect.
(Now feeling martially inept...)

I wouldn't necessarily recommend being a Step away from a significant threat, Sir Wizard.

yeah, it is kinda weird...

I was just thinking is there anything better for me to hold than a shield. Also I can scale athletics much better than any other attack that I have, so that can be a viable option in combat for my 3rd action.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

This would make for a good FAQ question, since it's not especially spelled out anywhere that I'm aware of.

IMO, you would probably use the worse of the two proficiencies.

Said Wizard might have been trained in CQC with his bare hands, but probably can't do so effectively with a whip in his hand.

Of course, a Human Wizard who took the unconventional weaponry ancestry feat could probably be trained in both and be effective at it.

why would unconventional weaponry give you whip training? You could say that in your village everybody had whips, but that is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Is there anything in the rules preventing characters untrained in certain weapons to still use them without penalty for trips, disarms and shoves?

A 1st level wizard with 16 dex and trained athletics can use a whip for it's reach and finesse and normally trip/disarm with it even if he isn't trained?

it's a great option pick up a second dedication even if you dont have scores or 3 dedication feats from previous one.

Ravingdork wrote:
Debelinho wrote:

those 2 classes are not the best fit TBH...

champion works best with dex dump because of heavy armor prof
monk works best with cha dump and high dex

so either way you will have to put 14 in a score you don't need at all...

if you plan to go unarmored, then go monk first for sure...

also, what rainzax said...

Half-elves can get around that ability prerequisite.

yes, but at 9th if it's not too late for OP, it can work

tqomins wrote:
Debelinho wrote:
champion works best with dex dump because of heavy armor prof
Not really. There's only a +1 AC difference between light/medium (+5) and heavy (+6) armor. So there are plenty of great champion builds that'll trade that 1 AC for the advantages of not bothering with heavy armor (e.g., speed). What I've quoted here ("best") is just not true.

well, not really....but I'll add "IMO" to that. Champions have 1 thing they are best at....AC...only class with heavy armors that get legendary prof with it. It is certainly possible to make a build that uses medium or light armor...same as making a fighter with a simple club as his chosen weapon can be done....but don't call it great

champions just don't have any support in their class abilities or feats to go ranged or finesse...and every point they put in dex is a point less in con, str, cha or wis.

I'm not saying it's total crap or not viable....but it will not be "great"

those 2 classes are not the best fit TBH...

champion works best with dex dump because of heavy armor prof
monk works best with cha dump and high dex

so either way you will have to put 14 in a score you don't need at all...

if you plan to go unarmored, then go monk first for sure...

also, what rainzax said...

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codeinfused wrote:
Debelinho wrote:
imo spellstrike should work only with attack trait spells
I do think my idea for Spellstrike needs balance tweaking.. but why not let it work for other touch spells? Its normally delivered by touch, but delivered by weapon instead. And since pf2 doesn't have holding a charge, it's actually a higher risk. So if the player is willing to give up the free auto touch for a Spellstrike opportunity, just adds choice.

all offensive touchspells have the attack trait

almost like they are preparing for something...

cool work, honestly

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point blank already exists...1st level fighter feat...paladin can take it in 4th level earliest

imo spellstrike should work only with attack trait spells

wouldn't your animal companion gain an extra die if it's a single die attack?

not sure that you can sustain more than once per round, and you blink every end of round while it lasts.

that's how i understood it

also, it works just for multiclass just with other classes

Zwordsman wrote:

No I don't think you can.

Even with the Elvish heritage for multiclassing at lv 1, you still wouldn't be able to snag enough multiclass feats to pick up a second multiclass until 6 or 8 I think. Since most of the feats require lv 4 to take em.

elvish heritage for multiclassing?

SpaceWhale42 wrote:
RP Reasons mostly!

monk is the only martial class you can do it with...

Heal/harm already does that by default. They both heal and dmg living/undead in it's 3 action the same time.


you need it for RP reasons or mechanics?

consider also monk dedication and crushing grab+brutal bully gives you 2xstr modifier dmg after every successful grapple

later in 10 level you can get flurry of blows...

Red Griffyn wrote:

Replied to your reddit post, but I'll duplicate my response here as well:

I think at best you'll get this off twice a round on 3 attacks in the second round at level 6 with the Mature Companion feat (also makes your companion large, which may mean you don't have it in dungeons).

Turn 1:

1 - Hunt Prey

2 - Command Animal (support, move)

3 - Flurry (two shots, 1 with support bonus) - You'd have to convince your GM to give you 2 if the mount can move between your action flurry shots (not hard to conceptualize with a charging mounted archer, but likely not going to be accepted by a rules lawyer gm)

Turn 2:

1 - Command Animal (support, move)

2 - Strike (with support bonus)

2.5 - Companion uses L6 Mature Companion free move against hunted prey - trigger the support benefit which last until end of turn for next action.

3 - Flurry (two shots, 1 with bonus)

Its a cool concept.

Thanks for your help

hmmm....reading it a bit better....RAW would allow giving support bonus on both hunted shot attacks right? It states if on your previous action you moved 10ft....which I did...for both shots...right? because hunted shot(and flurry) should work RAW with this?

it doesn't seem broken...

PossibleCabbage wrote:
How powerful is "as a reaction, 25% of critical hits are just regular hits" anyway? It doesn't seem amazing, but I might be underestimating it.

it works better than weakest fortification rune(flat 16 vs flat 17)

level 12 rune, only for heavy armors...

but I've never run any math regarding how often can you use it...

John Lynch 106 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Is that really balanced? Taking an 8th Level feat and handing it out at 6th level?

Well, the 8th level feat available at 6th level

-requires a specific advanced weapon Is the weapon so bad it’s unusable without specifically tailored feat support?
-costs 3 feats to acquire, whereas a fighter can get it with 2. General/ancestry feats? Or class feats? Because one of those is a pretty low cost.
-does not have the higher level "always on" upgrade that the fighter gets (thought maybe the swordlord gets it.) Specifically I do not think it interacts with the stance a fighter gets at 12. Something a non-fighter was never going to get.

So I think it's reasonable. If we want people to specialize in one weapon (which requires hoop jumping) and take a specific archetype, we have to give it some sort of edge over the default option. I thought PF2e was moving away from hoop jumping = more power. Is that how to optimise in PF2? Take unusual choices to get more power?

I'm personally more fond of the other level 6 feat the duelist gets, which gives you a free demoralize any time you crit. I don't think anybody currently has that.

Comments in bold. I’m just trying to understand the new edition. I don’t mean to be overly critical.

dueling riposte ain't that badass so that we need to worry about balance even if you get it at level've read's OKish

nothing broken for sure

new options that duelist brings are cool...initiative boost + free draw and also that 10 level feat with flat checks vs critical hits

I was looking at a mounted archer(shortbow) with animal companion(goat using pony statistics) for my halfling ranger
As I read it, you get twice the number of dice bonus to dmg until beginning of your next turn when you use mount support action....with all attacks....even ranged right?

so, from second level, i can use support for animal companion(double move + support effect) and shoot 3 arrows at my prey with +2 dmg....all for 3 actions?

Am I reading this right?

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
If stunning first is that amazing, is slow fall really in the same league? Seems like a dud feat to me compared to what you could take.

I've already seen few posts that address slow fall and similar monk "skill feats"...and I agree to a degree...monks need those options, but they could have made it stronger or better scaling

looking just for combat those kind of feats almost never make sense....but that's me....IMO you should save your class feats for combat options, and use the rest to flesh out other details of your build...

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, the student of perfection dedication is very nearly strictly better than the ki strike feat, since it's Ki Strike + a skill increase and a lore.

Only downside is that it locks you out of other dedications, and that it's a level 2 feat instead of a level 1 feat. Of course, I've seen a lot of monks take a stance with their level 1 feat and a ki power with the level 2 feat.

Hmm... it’s concerning they’re already producing “this feat is like this existing one but better”. If the other feats in the archetype are as good as everyone is saying, having to take 2 of them isn’t really a penalty.

The only other balancing factor is that the dedication is level 2 vs level 1. If we look at the existing level 2 feats:
* Brawling Focus: Nice. But you first have to crit and then they have to fail a save. Not sure how often that is going to come up.
* Crushing Grab: Strength mod damage on a grapple check isn’t bad. But lots of people don’t typically plan to do grapple checks in most rounds, and if you can deal damage with a fighter’s combat grab (it isn’t clear to me that you can) then the fighter seems better.
* Dancing Leaf: Slowfall doesn’t exactly get too many people excited. Very situational.
* Stunning Fist: Only works on mooks and lesser bosses. At least they’re more likely to fail the save.

Given all the above I can see the student of Perfection dedication being a no brainer for at least a while. Which is concerning that we are already getting options like that already,

What are other people’s thoughts?

stunning fist is by far the best 2nd level martial action cost and u get a huge benefit(that doesn't work so well against solo bosses, like any "save" works only on 90% of monster well) even have 2 shots at connecting it...put that as a 2nd level feat in any martial class, and all power gamers would take it, even as a single attack(without flurry)

IMO stunning fist is the strongest 2nd level choice compared to other choices for any class printed so far. no brainer really(except some niche flavor builds)

if monk needed that to make a balanced character, they should have made it as a class feature...

and again.....magic warrior sucks :)

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Ranger spellcasting from 1st edition is very limited

all together they get 3rd level druid and 2nd level arcane spells(max at 17lvl)

you can literally make the same ranger(regarding abilities and spells) in PF2....the only thing hard to replicate is that random list of monster that 1st ed ranger have dmg bonus against....but precision edge bonus can replace that...

PF2 is so modular in character creation that you can really make any kind of fictional character very easily(aragorn too, although he never casts any real spells)

now...changing one's preference later in life(i doubt that you are a youngster mentioning 1st edition) and accepting change....that is a bit harder than making any kind of character in any system.

am i reading correctly? magic warrior can't increase your focus pool at all?

oh man...

i'm trying to make any kind of build that would work well with this archetype(mechanically)...and can't find any real reason to take it(beside RP and fluff)

maybe if they made 1 big benefit it could be unique and very cool

"you can cast spells in your battle form of chosen mask animal"

Vlorax wrote:
Debelinho wrote:

magic warrior...just...just no

druid dedication + wild shape is so much better....and anybody can get wis 14 compared to focus spell prereq of magic warrior and it scales better(+2 status to attack)

those anti divination bonuses are silly....c'mon guys, those spells are story spells for GM....if they need to be there, they'll be there.

if your character is resistant, your other party member wont whatever...the BBEG will get his intel one way or the other...

Maybe you don't want to take druid anathema

or maybe you don't want all those mask shenanigans

IMO the worst of all regional archetypes

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magic warrior...just...just no

druid dedication + wild shape is so much better....and anybody can get wis 14 compared to focus spell prereq of magic warrior and it scales better(+2 status to attack)

those anti divination bonuses are silly....c'mon guys, those spells are story spells for GM....if they need to be there, they'll be there.

if your character is resistant, your other party member wont whatever...the BBEG will get his intel one way or the other...

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runescarred works better than multiclass caster in some cases...
2 major advantages mechanically speaking:
no score don't need int or cha 14 to get arcane spells
advanced spellcasting is level 10 instead of 12...if you really need that 12 lvl slot for your build

Aldori seems cool for human rogues or dex fighters(they get riposte at level 6)...maybe some dex champion build?

red mantis is perfect for flurry human rangers, or human rogues...or even dual wielding fighters but those RP requirements ban them for most PCs

Living monolith looks useful mechanically....I can imagine it with a dwarven monk...or any martial dwarf, but again....RP stuff is getting in the way...damn sphinx and egypt :)

Lastwall seems OK for any non figher that is planning to use a shield...or for anyone in an undead heavy camapaign

Hellknight is also cool...i can see some benefits there for lot's of tanks

student of perfection looks very usable by monks

lion and pathfinder are both...very campaign dependent

magic warrior...very disappointing...almost nonplayable...

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
graystone wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
@graystone: Seems like picking cantrips is only viable via Archetypes and with feat investment to keep the proficiencies high, and using the ancestry/general cantrips for utility that doesn't require spell attack?

Yes, you have to take the followup boost the spell proficiency. Ancestry/general cantrips proficiency goes up with your real proficiency: so if you take both ancestry and a caster multiclass, you increase both with the followup feats. This isn't really a burden as you get free spell slots for doing so: if you want to focus on the cantrips, you can take long lasting spells like mage armor/anthaul/false life and just cast them at the start of your adventuring day.

You have to make sure remember that cha is the stat for innate cantrips, so if you pick a multiclass caster that doesn't use cha, you'll have to use the innate cantrips for utility spells that don't use proficiency [like shield] unless you raise 2 mental stats at once.

I'll be keeping Cha high on Rogue since it's really useful. Feints for flat-footed, Intimidate for Frightened, and Diplomacy for a merchant lifestyle via Bargain Hunter. Plus Create Diversion is perfect for pickpocketing.

Feels like a better stat than Int this time around since Rogue gets so many skill increases, it's easy to keep int skills high, and I feel like there's more Cha oriented skill feats than Int ones.

if you go that way, then bard or sorc ded for multitalented fot sure...

...and we come full circle back....what to take as multitalented? :)

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Debelinho wrote:

it looks like "back to the drawing board"...

what are you trying to build? black panther? cat woman?

Original concept was a spiked fists ruffian type, somewhat aesthetically inspired by the Sacrier class from the Wakfu MMO. I saw tiger claw as a way to get the same sort of moveset as spiked gauntlets aesthetically but a little more effective, plus it'd be snazzy with Flurry.

Might instead go Ruffian with spiked gauntlets and a fancy breastplate to match the gauntlets. I'm looking into those cantrips people recommended, I can grab any arcane via an ancestry feat, detect magic via arcane sense and possibly another via a class dip or the rogue class feat, but I'm considering taking a fighter dip for Double Slice, which would allow two strikes with no penalties.

double slice doesn't work so good with sneak attack(works like a single attack) so wasting 2 feats only on that...dunno...not worth it

ruffian works well with unarmed....str + sneak....both work, but they're not claws...but are d6 if you dip into monk again..also ki strike for that burst when needed...or ki rush...

another option is to go ranger and take twin takedown at 4th level...for that sweet action economy...

it looks like "back to the drawing board"...

what are you trying to build? black panther? cat woman?

HammerJack wrote:
Well, not ones that are caster primary. You could go fighter primary, wizard archetype, if you want to be better at the melee half of melee/caster.

I'm mostly concerned about defense...I don't mind that I'll use cantrips for my dmg, with just an occasional sword swing here and there, but is there a way to build any kind of melee wizard?(that doesn't suck ofc)

taking sorcerer and champion dedication is the only build that seems to give you enough defense to be able to be full time frontline...that i can think of...

I would so much like to make a wizard/martial str based melee build...but they don't seem to work...if you go fighter, your AC will can't go champion because cha14 hurts too much...rouge gives you light armor and could work for dex melee build but deals no dmg...ranger does nothing for fullcaster melee...

any ideas?

then go with ranger...hunters prey and you take those remaining skills that you don't have..

but I would still take 2 cantrips...

monastic weapons can be useful for builds that requires use of weapons...weapon + free hand or 2WF or 2HW

fighters that MC into monk and take monastic weapons+flurry+agile grace+double slice using 2 kama's and wearing fullplate while ki rushing into position and ki striking with those kamas...seems cool

using shurikens gives you str to dmg and is at shorter ranges works better than longbows for 18 starting str...

also, why don't you pick up 2 cantrips? mage hand and ghost sound are good for any rouge...bard dedication looks can even pick up inspiring if you want later to buff your party and yourself...

monk dedication is nice flavor if your rouge likes to be lethal always...and if you find flurry useful you can pick it up at level 10 right after...your unarmed attack is just as good as any finesse+agile weapon

it is a bit if that bothers you...

for melee wizards there is little few HP and no combat profs whatsoever...

only thing that could help is champion dedication for that fullplate and dex dump, but its hard to have str16+cha14 while having int18...

sorcerer + champion dedication = AC22 at level 2 w raised good as it gets...


1dangerous sorcery(human), 2champion dedication, 4lay on hands, 6champions reaction, 8adv bloodline or champion resiliency or divine ally(shield), 9(monk dedication, multitalented halfelf), 10flurry of blows or quick casting...
for general feats shield block, toughness and fleet

use melee spells and raise shield or trip/grapple with your gauntlet....tank and protect(with help of mirror image and the like)...or buff...or burn...or can even go primal sorcerer to have also heal spells...countless options

it's easy after you take care of your biggest problem when opting for melee full caster....sustainable defense

Hi everyone, I'm wondering about how you calculate your attack when opting for "your attack bonus +2 status" when using wild shape?

if you have handwraps, do you count them in? also, property runes on your handwraps...can you benefit from them while shaped? it does say that you keep passive bonuses, but can't activate any items...

do we have any devs insight into this?

3 people marked this as a favorite. least a human doesn't have to be raised by gnomes...
just knew one at some point :)

Xenocrat wrote:
Armor on a monk is crazy late level when you're trading master/legendary unarmored proficiency for trained/expert in armor.

not if you dump that dex...and want to use a temple sword...

master is at 13, expert heavy is at you are really behind by 1 which is still ok(but with shield you are +1 and soak some dmg)

it's not better than a "regular" monk in dmg and even worse in mobility, but it's more durable and flurry gives it better action economy than champions or fighters...and trip + stunning makes it a bit different

you can take ki rush, ki strike, lay on hands, champions would work...

2nd level take champion ded, and you retrain your mountain stance into monastic weapons. take full plate. 20AC at level 2, 22 with shield raised. you can use your third action to trip with assurance if you are good enough(at lvl 3 you hit DC17 which hits most CR2 and even some cr3 monsters). or you can trip and then flurry while he's down. If you want to dump dex...

monk with temple sword is not a powerful build but it can work and be viable....but yeah....18 16 12 10 12 10 and shield + shield block.

and from that point on stunning fist and flurry of maneuvers...

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doesn't 2e basically have a built in autocorrect for "character building challenged" players? Why would anybody deliberately downplay on their class strenght's? If you are a fighter with str 14, you better have dex at least 16 and use a finesse weapon...or you pick another class FFS...

In 1e you had to be really savvy with the rules or get help from someone who is to make a fully functioning character(by everyone's standard)

In 2e you have to deliberately play against that you must make an effort to be sub optimal.

it's like playing a team sport where 2 of my guys are playing dumb, making it harder for all of us and calling it fun.

I'm a GM that never rolls behind screen and fudge rolls...and i always help "rules light" players to make their character viable in combat and still keep ALL their RP wishes and flair.

I'm sure that I can turn ANY character concept that you can think of into a viable character in 2E(again, by everyone's standard)...hit me with anything...

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