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Pogiforce wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
(MY abadaran spacebat has gotten a fair bit over WBL despite playing down just by wearing second skin till 9th level...)
Hoooooooooooow TF did you get away with level 1 armor for 8 levels? O.O

You assume you always get hit and don't get into melee range.

Running dead suns, I tend to add in a suit or two of level +1-2 armor on boss characters so my PCs have decent armor without tanking their money supply, then they can save their money up for augments.

They tend to just use the looted weapons from the enemies. I've thrown in a few longarms to keep that player up, but the rest are melee, blasters or an operative, so they don't need better weapons as much.

You could give the magus spell progression as if it had wizard dedication feats as a base class feature.

That similar 6th-level casting to me.

Though I prefer the 'prestige' archetype approach that can work with multiple different class combinations.

pithica42 wrote:
Of course, this means that you'd have the opposite problem, that anyone with some extra cash could easily be rolling around in a Tier 20 Explorer. But the way starship combat DC's work, there'd be limits to how effective that is, and if you make them collect their own parts from starship combat or missions specifically to find parts from other starship graveyards, well, you end up with the BP system you started with. (The BP system basically assumes you're doing this as you go.)

You can control that with the default tier system, but factoring starships into WBL and wealth per encounter sounds like a colossal headache best avoided by the BP system anyway.

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Until official clarification, I too will assume it treats energy resistance as if reduced by 5/10, but not stacking with other methods of reducing energy resistance, such as penetrating attack. You can get it earlier, and at level 15 it's better than penetrating attack. That makes sense for a gear boost vs. a feat.

That way it's also not useless.

WBL is a good benchmark, but you shouldn't look at it for income.

For example: the wealth gains per encounter for 6 x CR 11 encounters, 2 x CR 12 encounters and 1 x CR 13 encounter (slightly more than the 34,000 xp you need to go from level 10 to level 11) split four ways total up to 67,000 Cr. Nearly twice the difference in WBL increase for level 10 and level 11 (34,000 Cr). Hell, it's 1000 Cr more than the expected WBL for level 10.

The fact that you are selling the gear you are replacing will of course knock that back down. Remember that when designing loot drops, gear that you know your PCs will sell instead of use is only worth 10% of it's cost in your loot budget.

Edit: I'm not saying you shouldn't occasionally look at your PCs total wealth and make sure they're nearby WBL, but it's not something you should be designing loot drops from.

Level 7 is a lot earlier than level 12.

Still no excuse for heavy onslaught in that case though. Especially since if it did work that way, the language pretty much guarantees they don't stack.

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Pogiforce wrote:

I feel like the crit effect would not be justified by the increased weight, cost, ilvl, and reduced range compared to similar weapons.its damage is the same, and it's worse in virtually every other way. There are small arms And grenades that are comparable to the crit effect in the same level range.

At that point if the gun wasn't one handed, there would be zero appeal as a player short of "OMG Sarenrae!!!" *spoons the gun at night, paints sarenrae's face on it*...

I think you underestimate how much the system overestimates the value of crit effects.

The level 7 version has less range than the seeker rifle, but has nearly twice the magazine and a crit effect (I agree crit effects are less than stellar, but they add a disproportionate cost to weapons with them)

The level 11 version is a bit more expensive than the level 10 combat rifle, but it now has nearly the same range in addition to the crit effect and larger magazine. That's to be expected.

The level 15 version is quite a lot more expensive than the level 14 seeker rifle, and it's advantage in magazine size has mostly gone away. However, compare it to the level 15 gyrojet rifle (which has a crit effect) and it's noticably cheaper. It does about five less damage on average, and has a worse crit, but it is cheaper.

So, typically, a cinder rifle is an expensive way to get a few more shots and a burn crit. It's not going to be worth buying. Just like a lot of guns.

Now... if it's a one-handed longarm? It does a heck of a lot more. For a two armed race, it's a lot like buying a cybernetic arm. 24,750 Cr, and a minimum level of nine before anyone is willing to sell you one. eleven if you want to craft one. Only the level fifteen version is that much more expensive than the crit-less projectile equivalent.

Not to mention this would four armed races wield a long arm, a two handed melee weapon and a shield for free by level two...

No, I'm going to say there is no way in hell this isn't a typo.

Pactworlds mentions a series of massive cracks through the planet thousands of miles long and 30+ miles deep. They weren't there before the gap, and they appear to be about that old yes.

Are we sure the cinder rifles being one handed isn't a typo? I'd think there would be mention of something that strange in the weapon's description.

Edit: Especially since:

Longarms wrote:

Longarms are handheld, long-ranged weapons that must be held

and operated with two hands.

I don't think a table's column header is a more specific rule than 'weapon type: longarms'.

Pogiforce wrote:
the above combo by the way is actually pretty great, because effectively means you get a discount on both biotech, and what would otherwise be cybernetic augments, just at a lower discount. Example, Minimal Speed Suspension is normally 1900c and Adaptive Biochains Minimal Speed Suspension would be 2090c, but for the Biotechnician it'd be 1801, a 9 credit discount. Extremely minor I know, but think about the much more expensive augments and that number will climb. and then augments that are normally biotech are naturally cheaper than that.

It doesn't fit the barathu character idea but:

Necrografts wrote:

Any biotech or cybernetic

augmentation can be created as a necrograft and installed
for only 90% of the augmentation’s normal cost, but doing
so causes the recipient to gain the necrograft subtype

For any penny pinching character. Especially since the necrograft subtype isn't exactly detrimental.

Considering you can recreate any biotech or cybernetic augment with a necrograft, there are most likely mechanics using undead biotech to do their thing.

The mechanics of the class don't support it, but there is no reason in setting for biotech mechanics and necrograft mechanics to not exist as well.

Yeah, I don't have the impression that technology advances all that fast in the Pact worlds or their contemporaries.

If anything the gap probably slowed all that down while people were figuring out what they knew, and if any of it was accurate. Someone just coming out of the gap is probably going to try and relearn everything they still kinda know, just to make sure they don't blow up the whole shipyard when making a new power core from the parts lying around.

I don't think the situation is quite as bad as the star wars universe is about tech development, but it's definitely been slow for a long time.

Quentin Coldwater wrote:
I've heard people complain about Envoys being "boring" because they can't participate in the most fun part of combat: shooting.

That's not true even on it's own. The basic class doesn't support being a combat type, but it only takes a few feats to pick up a heavy weapon and go to town. As a bonus, unwieldy heavy weapons mesh really well with clever attack + get 'em/improved get 'em.

It's not the one true build, but Envoys can be combat characters if built for it.

The PCs can make a culture check to find out that the Maiden was reported lost seventy five years prior to dead suns.

The gap's description in the CRB suggests it was millennia long at least, but also that it may have traveled forwards and backwards through the timeline. Weird and inconsistent history that anyone afterwards has no memory of, but anyone living during probably wouldn't think anything is off.

I would also hazard a guess that the 'start' of the gap is right about when Aroden died. The way the gap is described, that might just be the middle chronologically.

I definitely prefer the half & half races to be less common. Most species not being able to have children together makes the various races feel less like rubber forehead aliens.

This not stacking with the feat penetrating attack and similar effects makes sense.

If that was the intent, the language is really far off.

You activate the spell cache to cast a spell.

The interpretation that it's a separate action would bring up too many questions that go unanswered. Would the spell need to be cast on the same turn, next turn, or anytime in the future?

So, I believe that spell cache is not in itself an action, it simply lets you cast a spell you know without spending a spell slot. You spend the action required to cast the spell in question when using this ability. AoO resolve based on the spell in question.

Really, the only time I could see it being useful is for split damage type weapons vs. doubled energy resistance. If you end up doing 10 fire and 10 acid vs. a creature with resist 10 to both, getting 10 damage through is... okay, but there's also the possibility you do 11 and 11... in which case it doesn't trigger and is even worse.

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But that implies that your character can't just use a normal bandoleer of some sort strapped with batteries, grenades and so on. Instead they need a magic item...

That's just silly.

I'm thinking it... can't work the token damage way right?

At level 7 (or 11 for heavy onslaught) when you get this... You automatically go past ER/DR/5, and are probably going to automatically get past 10 ER, 15 DR for that version.

So, it would only work to get token damage past ER/DR/20+...

I'm not sure the level 15 versions would ever see use outside an abysmal damage roll.

I suppose it might, maybe see use if you're using vastly under level weapons, operative/small arms, or split damage type weapons... but, if it works that way, it goes from amazing utility to... ignore it and pick something else.

The same language is used for heavy onslaught in the CRB for damage reduction.

I had thought there it was implying vs. DR/silver if your weapon isn't silver, but now I'm not sure.

Squiggit wrote:
Nerdy Canuck wrote:

Part of the issue you're raising here is that a character without that class feature isn't a hyper-specialist at thing thing.

Which is, legitimately, a design decision that merits some discussion in its own right.

That's sort of the rub, isn't it?

Skill checks seem to be based around optimization, but at the same time that optimization is basically free if you pick the right class. A mystic who wants a high Mysticism skill only has to spend skillpoints. Everything else they get either automatically for picking the right class, or are things they'd do anyways like pumping their wisdom. Meanwhile a Soldier who wants to be good at the same skill is investing two feats and pouring resources into bumping what's essentially a tertiary stat for them and is still going to be rolling in the 'don't bother' range, despite going much further out of their way to be good at that skill.

It's sort of the weird paradox of Starfinder. Ostensibly keeping a tight reign on bonuses compared to all the esoteric ways to boost checks Pathfinder has allows for tighter and cleaner balancing, but it has the effect of meaning that if you can't access what boosters DO exist, you're basically SoL. So on the surface the Soldier looks like they don't have all the issues with skills that Fighters struggle with, but in practice it's even harder for them to go out of their designated wheelhouse.

At the same time, I really don't expect the non-expert to be any more than simply competent at an off-theme skill. The soldier identifying spells probably shouldn't have as good of a chance at identifying top level spells when the mystic has only just learned them. They should have a good chance at identifying a level down, which is -5 comparatively. Unfortunately, I don't think they're only five points behind at level 16.

Xenocrat wrote:
Pogiforce wrote:

Also, if Get em is all that matters any archtype that does not replace the 6th level improv is fine, since that's the earliest you can take Improved get em anyway.

If you traded away your 2nd and 4th level improvs then you'll only be able to take Get 'Em, not Improved Get 'Em, at 6th. There are no archetypes that take only one of your 2/4/6 improvs, so at best you can take Get 'Em at 2, 4, or 6 and Improved Get 'Em at 8.

You get a 1st level improv. If there is an archetype that doesn't replace the 6th level ability, then get 'em at 1st and improved get 'em at 6th are worth it over inspiring boost.

Pogiforce wrote:
I also thought Inspiring Boost would be first, since anyone can shoot things but battlefield healing is at a premium.

at 1st it's nice, by 3rd staying in SP until a 10 min rest is more reliable.

Pogiforce wrote:

Being just a little more than 30 feet out is generally enough. But also still off topic

Ive been seeing a lot of talk specifically in relation to Get 'Em/ Improved Get, 'Em, but not generally anything else. Is there any build diversity in Envoys? If not, wouldnt that make Envoys an ideal candidate for Archetypes? If you aren't using like 90% of your options you can pretty much get what you need and trade the rest of it away.

Unfortunately envoys want their limited options immediately, and archetypes tend to defer those options until later.

Typical envoy builds are probably:

Max charisma - party face, picks up clever feint, get 'em, and maybe improved demoralize for in combat buffing and debuffing.

Max Dex - focuses on long arms and/or unwieldy heavy weapons to get maximum use out of improved get 'em.

You can also focus on melee with STR, but you'll run into action economy issues even faster, and again, get 'em is probably your first choice.

There is also building for being the battlefield medic, but that build can slot into a melee or ranged combat build fairly well. You might prefer to balance INT and DEX to succeed at the skill checks easier and just leave CHA at 12 depending on how much RP you see yourself using.

get 'em is probably their best buff. Other tricks are useful, but I would say get 'em is typically the first choice.

To be fair, melee combat tends to be a high risk, high reward endeavor. Melee characters put out damage, but don't often get cover bonuses to AC and are big flashy targets.

Snipers on the other hand are mostly just unwieldy longarms. Useful situationally, but not great otherwise.

The only issue I've seen raised with the envoy is that it basically runs out of useful class features past level 12.

Unless you're talking about the fact that most of their class features don't actually use their key ability score? At least outside of a demoralize/feint build.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Someone that charges while flying has moved, and doesn't need to hover or fall.

Yes, but before level 5 the dragonkin must end their turn on the ground or fall.

That's a revelation I would like to see.

Something like: graviton revelation - as a move action you can move your mote away from your person up to 100ft away, shedding light from the mote as normal. When attuned or fully attuned, you can treat a melee weapon in your hand as if it had the thrown weapon property with a range increment of 20 ft. You can use this revelation with a solar weapon, when used this way, it is dismissed after it misses or deals damage instead of automatically as it leaves your hand. It fully forms in a free hand at the start of your next turn (no action), if you have no free hands it remains dismissed.

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Crit fusions are currently something you never buy, they're just simple effects added to found guns.

There are more than crit fusions.

Holy/axiomatic/etc. - bypass DR and ER of aligned dragons, outsiders and undead.

Corrosive/Frost/Flaming - splitting damage types can hurt you vs. some monsters, but it can really help vs. others, a swift action to turn it on/off isn't too bad either.

Called and returning - must haves for expensive thrown weapons.

Seeking - negate concealment miss chance.

Spellthrower - lets non-spellcasters use spell gems as a full action.

Even more in the armory. Once per day launch a grenade without using the grenade loaded into the weapon, sicken a demoralized foe, and many more.

Which is why it's 'amazing', I know how absolutely ridiculous it is. The stars have aligned and Cthulhu is free cosmic scale coincidence.

They probably should have involved the crafting rules instead of 'they just work'.

LotsOfLore wrote:

Very interesting, yes I see your point. I will rethink it. Maybe it would be better leaving the damage alone, and letting the crit range affect every other fusion properties normally.

I originally discarded this option because I thought it would be too strong.

Death is the ultimate status effect, and increasing crit rate and crit damage have a good chance of inflicting it.

Crit effects that are particularly good when increasing crit effect range:

Stun - no save <-this one might actually be problematic if the range is increased too far.
Knockdown - no save
The various save or sucks, blind, staggered, wound, etc.

Ascalaphus wrote:
When we found the ancient kishalee batteries that recharge automatically, we were particularly amazed that they fit into any modern device.

It was supposed to be an amazing coincidence of parallel design.

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The increased crit range is weird if it can't apply crit effects from other fusions, but can from the weapon. A stun weapon and a weapon with a stun fusion are both weapons with the stun crit effect property after all. This bit just seems like additional unnecessary bookkeeping.

Critical hits already do a lot of damage. The question you need to ask yourself is: Is this an item every character that uses weapons will buy because it's better than other options? I think the answer is yes here. Some utility fusions may compete, but no crit fusions would be used compared to this one, especially as this fusion renders them useless.

An effect that is more in line with starfinder's current design is one that increase the range that a weapon's critical effect is applied rather than just increasing the range at which double damage happens.

Also, this thread should probably have been in the homebrew forum.

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Yeah, I'll agree that it now seems to be more art direction/style than intentionally drawing the characters to appear skinnier looking than their originals. Everyone is skinnier in look. Amiri and Valeros are a bit off to me, but it is what it is.

However, that breastplate is hideously bright.

I do like the smirk though. Actually, all the faces I like in the new versions.

Honestly, charging jolt should just say 'into a weapon or a battery', and call it a day.

Also, some science officer actions specifically state that they use sensors in some manner, others do not.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
A full attack is something you probably want to prevent but should a barathu really not be able to tighten a bolt without falling?

if there is a handhold I don't think there's a problem. If there isn't it should be reasonable to spend multiple turns tightening a bolt slowly.

Besides, early stage barathu fly on organic
gas bladder jet packs, they don't just float about without effort like their larger cousins.

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And they should not expect to do anything they want midair because they could in pathfinder with a free action fly check.

Flying takes effort in starfinder. Players should understand that as soon as they read the acrobatics skill entry.

Expecting to do full actions without effort midair in starfinder is like expecting to craft golems in 5e. It's not how the system works.

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Get 'em and energy ray seem like iffy changes that would confuse someone switching.

You can charge with a flight speed. My understanding is that before level 5 as a dragonkin you must charge them midair, then use your move action to move to the ground, unless you feel like taking fall damage. Either way, you provoke attacks of opportunity.

After level 5, the next turn you must either move or spend a move action to hover or fall after taking a full attack.

Around level 5, the shobhad should also have decent flight options from gear.

And the drone can hover without human intervention in starfinder.

Flying vs. melee combatants and forcing them to use their weaker attack can be between +2 - +4 AC. Partial cover up to cover. Gaining cover and the equivalent of a few points of DR sounds pretty good to me. Especially as a spellcaster or an envoy or an operative who doesn't need a full action (trick attack includes movement, so operatives are safe).

Issues with some creatures that can fly effortlessly plummeting to the ground if they try to remote-hack a system? maybe.

Fundamental design problems? That's a step too far. The system allows you to fly from point A to point B and perform some simple actions along the way. It works just fine. Maybe taking full actions in the air isn't unbalanced, but it doesn't have fundamental problems in the way it works at the table.

True, though flying a drone is still much harder than walking is for a human. Possibly still true in the far future with constructs than can near perfectly imitate the movement of organic creatures (androids, SROs).

I even see the argument for allowing hover for perfect maneuverability creatures (drones) as a free action. I think it makes them a slightly too attractive option at lower levels, but I don't think it will break the game wide open.

I don't see the argument for allowing free, easy, no consequences movement for creatures with only average maneuverability (contemplatives, early stage barathu, jet pack/forcepack/flight spell using creatures).

I also don't understand the argument that the movement and turning rules are too complicated to work at a table.

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
I'm glad you asked! The interpretation that sounds reasonable to me is the one that follows the logic of the real world as well as the internal logic of the fictional setting as well - IE the one in which things that are observably true in the real world (IE it's not actually that hard to fly, certainly not compared to something as difficult to do as walking) and we can see in the intent of the game world (IE that Barathu aren't completely unable to make engineering checks or computer checks while in their native environment, since they would just fall through the atmosphere and die).

I have no idea whatsoever how you think it's easier to fly than walk in the real world.

About the only real world creature that manages to fly and do just about anything else, is the hummingbird. Insects land to collect pollen, eat, bite or sting. Birds other than the hummingbird do basically nothing mid air. When they do something mid-air, like mating, they do so while falling.

Besides when a barathu makes a computers or engineering check on their homeworld, they most likely don't do so floating by themselves. They probably land on a larger combined barathu and either plug in, or access the biotech from there.

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
But see, I've been told repeatedly that that is unreasonable - that's not how we do things, right? We should expect players to abandon those expectations and instead DO WHAT THE RULES SAY - Indeed, it seems to be the express stance by many that the concern that there is a massive disconnect between what someone who only knows the real world and/or the art/fiction of the game might reasonably expect and what the rules actually enforce is completely nonsense, as is the concern that said disconnect might cause a bad play experience.

At SFS tables I do expect players to follow the rules even when they're a bit silly. This rule is not a bit silly, it's just simple simulated tactical movement applied to flight speeds. It's not an accurate representation of how flight works in the same way land speeds, 5' squares, and spacing are not an accurate way that movement on the ground works in the real world, or how turn taking in combat is not how real life fights work. It's sort of close, but simplified for ease of play.

The 'disconnect' between art and the game table experience seems to come from bad assumptions. We see characters casting in mid air - this works just fine as long as it isn't a full action spell. We see characters shooting in mid air - this works too, as long as it's not a full attack.

Art also shows a barathu of some sort 'landed' on a trailing tentacle. The assumption that barathu can't land also appears to be a bad one.

HammerJack wrote:

Could you please cite the rule you're referring to that would indicate that you can't make more than one 45 degree turn? I do not see any such rule in the Acrobatics skill, or the Flying rules on page 259.

I only see the following, which does not indicate any limit on number of turns, only a movement cost:
"If you want to change direction while flying, it costs you an additional 5 feet of movement to turn 45 degrees. If you want to ascend, it costs you an additional 5 feet of movement for each square that you move upward. For example, suppose you have a fly speed of 60 feet. As a single move action, you can fly forward 20 feet, turn 45 degrees to the left, and fly one square diagonally (all of which costs 30 feet of your movement). You can then ascend 15 feet, which costs another 30 feet of movement. At this point, you have used your full 60 feet of flying movement, so your move action is over. "

I see no reason why you couldn't change direction multiple times a flight move. There is no language stating you are limited to one turn a move action, nor any about 45 degrees per 5' of movement. I'm not even sure that rules block prevents you from pulling a 180. It would cost 20' of movement to flip over backwards and go back the way you came. Something to keep in mind when employing spring attack and shot on the run during flight.

Flying wrote:

If you want to change direction while flying, it costs you an

additional 5 feet of movement to turn 45 degrees.

Is the rule for turning while flying. As I read that, you can pivot in place, you don't need to move 5' per 45 turn or any additional rules.

Though, the listed example does appear to be wrong. They wouldn't be able to fly straight up because they would have to spend 10' of movement to turn 90 degrees up. They could move 5' up at an angle of 45 degrees, in the diagonal direction they were already going.

HammerJack wrote:
Expecting memorization would be pretty silly. Having a list is not.

To clarify, having a list and comparing it to the NPCs they plan to run is an acceptable level of preparation.

Yeah, the rules are that you can't perform full actions while flying until you have haste or force soles mk II.

Whether that's a good rule or not would be general discussion.

Samantha DeWinter wrote:

Fascinating discussion... and a huge headache. It doesn't seem that there's much disagreement at this point on what RAW actually IS. Just grumping about what it should be.

I'm just gonna houserule that full attacks don't burn your swift and sidestep the whole mess.

...not really. As far as I can tell, PCs don't ever get perfect maneuverability in the first place, only the hover drone.

Otherwise force soles mk II and haste make the discussion mostly irrelevant when the PCs get convenient access to those.

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Nerdy Canuck wrote:

There is a difference between rules literacy and rules mastery. If you think players can be reasonably expected to know about this expectation because they chose a race with a fly speed, we've apparently been playing at very different tables.

I don't think you can get simpler than looking up what skill is used to fly with.

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The second bit of art shows a barathu 'standing' on a single tentacle... I'm not sure why you would think they can't land on a solid surface and use guns or swords or whatever.

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