I remember them saying something about recognizing the player base concern about too few of spell slots; maybe they’ll bump it up to 4 max per spell level?
Though with the overall decreased spell slots and taking away increasing them with a higher key stat, i feel this gives them more room to play with ideas via items and abilities that can give access to more slots. Borrowing your idea, with a Wizard feat that allows two bonus School related spells per spell level rather than just one. Maybe a Prestige Archetype that focuses on casting abilities.
Overall i can’t say this is the actual reasoning behind the decision, but it’s the direction i feel they’re trying to go for.
I wanna see the return of Prestige Classes. Easily my favorite part of 3e. Combat focused, Magic focused, Crafting focused, Disguise focused, Class focused. They allowed for some of the most interesting concepts and since they weren’t full classes they could be as weird or off the wall as would be allowed. Some of my absolute favorite classes were Prestige ones.
So in the playtest Clerics have access to a feat called Channel Smite which works identically to how others have suggested Spellstrike to work; two key differences are is uses a charge of Channel Energy instead of a spell slot, and you can only dump the 1 action version of the Heal/Harm spell. So in most cases Spellstrike would be more efficient by 1 action with spells. This can be remedied with some reasonable restrictions, possibly akin to how Glyph of Warding works, like ‘must have a hostile effect’ and ‘must target one creature’ with possible options or variants such as being able to use a fireball with its AoE and not getting hurt while using it; but that’s really speculative thinking on my part.
I’m not so sure. The Wizard has a number of things a dedicated caster would probably want over better weapon and armor proficiencies. Also wouldn’t give them extra spell slots, so Wizard and Sorc should always have more gas in that regard. The Magus would have a focus on consuming spell slots for different gains. One issue with having them rely exclusively on powers is they could end up having too large a spell pool which would make them really powerful with certain MC options, or too small where it feels like they run out too soon.
Magus might be able to work as a full caster. For the record i’m all for the Spell Powers option.
What about giving this Magus-like class a proficiency in weapons and spell casting up to expert or master? Maybe a keystone feat to unlock legendary in either weapons or Spellcasting. Spellstrike could be a class feature like LoH or Channel, but work like Channel Smite. Their feats would be forcused on improving Spellstrike, using spell combat as a form of Sword and Sorcery version of TWF, and a Ranged specific version of Spellstrike.
I’m currently trying to think up a general archetype for Martials to become Gish focused; mostly focusing on scrolls and items though.
Captain Morgan wrote:
There are all those stories of GMs putting in unbeatable monsters expecting people to run only for the players to try and fight, and so forth.
Players: What do you mean we weren't suppose to fight the Black Dragon at level 1? The direct path had a highway toll, so we obviously weren't gonna do that.
So...yes. It's a big task. I did say that. I do still think it would be worth the couple of days it would take to do it.
On this particular point i’ll agree to disagree, and feel a couple of days would be much too short a time frame; but that’s just in my personal opinion. Otherwise i feel we agree on most other parts.
Jedi Maester wrote:
That means Paladin/Champion would be able to grab it because of Lay on Hands. This would also make the Fighter MC Archetype almost completely worthless since this would be the better option for 7 of the 12 classes; even if Spellstrike was ignored.
It also wouldn’t be as Universal as Cavalier or Pirate, since it requires casting of some kind. I feel something like this would pigeonhole the majority of Gish builds as a ‘must have’ feat choice.
Jedi Maester wrote:
I'd actually prefer the gishes to be a prestige feat so that it can function with any kind of magic. In first edition, you needed a magus archetype for each kind of casting, and you hoped your preference wasn't a trap option. As a prestige/multiclass feat, any spell caster/martial combo can use it and make it work for their preference. I think this would increase the diversity of available builds. You'd just need to make it available at low level.
I’ll agree with Greystone that a simple concept ideally should be online by level 1 or 2. Prestiege classes should make simple concepts better or unique such as Arcane Trickster, not needed to make them work.
A Universal Magus-like Class Archetype would be a good idea, but with how differently each caster plays it sounds easier said than done.
The last update, 1.6, is dated at November 5th which makes 4 months of public play and updates. When you consider the scope of the entire Playtest and the scope of pruning and rearranging 1/4th of the spell lists, that would seem like a very short amount of time. To clarify i’m not assuming to know what Paizo is and is not capable of doing in this regard, but i have no reason to believe the spell lists will be changed drastically from the Playtest with what information we currently have.
Wouldn't that be a bit too good with True Strike if your weapon hit was based off of Spell Proficiency?
I haven't heard anyone talk about the other ways you were able to add spell slots in the Playtest. I'm actually rather surprised. A Ring of Wizardry and some Familiar abilities allow you to prepare or cast more spells within a certain limitation of spell level.
Scrolls now acted as prepared spells you could buy; and i believe you could craft them as a batch since they're considered consumable.
In the 1.6 update Sorcs were given a feat to allow then to spontaneously heighten all bloodline spells; and Wizards were given the ability to trade two spell slots of the same level for a spell slot up to two levels higher.
If some of these things made it into the final version i feel it's a rather huge buff for casters that will make the lack of a couple spell slots less noticeable.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Then i’d say that would take care of my nitpick rather well. Wizard was one of my least favorite classes in 1e just from how barren it usually felt on class features; which leads me to not be the most familiar with what they have going for them.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Again, I want to throw out there that we don't actually know if they are pruning the wizard spell list. It was identified as an issue they ran into, but I don't think they claimed to have fixed it, and they could have fixed it in other ways. Making the other lists more robust, for example. (That would take away from the essence idea though.)
I don’t feel they will have pruned the Arcane spell list in such a short time, personally speaking. The discussion on School specialization and outside spells was more meant as a thought experiment rather than a prediction. I agree with making the other spell lists more robust, or have more focus on them; at least with future publications.
Hmm. . . I’ll have to look for the source that i’m thinking of. I can see the schools as they are in the PT being treated this way, and i think it’s a good direction to go. If that ends up being the case, would that mean there would only be as many Theses as there are Schools of Arcane? Would there only be one choice for ‘Thesis of Evocation’?
I know templates have been mentioned in the other thread, and i’m starting to wonder how would templates work with the Ancestry system? What if templates were set up as Universal Heritages? A player would have to take it at first level(unless wish shenanigans), it would give access to both ancestries for feats, and it would leave room to have them as full Ancestries as well.
I would find pre selected spells to defeat the purpose of the idea to begin with, since there are only so many schools, whereas Bloodlines they can keep generating just like they did in 1e.
Though with what Max just said; if they paired preselected Necromancy spells(for example) with a Thesis. . . This could be a tidy solution to the balance issue. To nitpick, since we still just have speculation to go on at the moment, wouldn’t that kind of tie Schools to closely to the Thesis idea? The two examples i can remember from another thread talked about a Thesis on Familiars or a Thesis on Metamagic. If this would mean that, say, Evocation was explicitly tied to Metamagic for the purpose of a Thesis i’m not sure how i’d feel about that.
The key difference for Bloodlines in either 1e or 2e is they are chosen for the player. The balance issue i would be worried about with, let’s say a Necromancy Wizard, picking that school of spells from any list would be if it might trivialize any other classes by mistake.
Like, would a Necromancy Wizard trivialize Cleric if they could prepare Heal/Harm?
My hope would be that it doesn’t, and it may not; but if it does, even by mistake, then there’s a whole can of issues that the mechanic would bring in.
@Gray: I could have been more specific with my post. For me it wasn’t the subject itself as much as the almost immediate turn It took. I was also trying to figure out where Max was going with their post with how they worded it.
Using the Grey Maiden Prestiege as an example, would that be too late in your opinion? Dedication at 6th but has a lot going for it, and a number of the abilities being fairly powerful in comparison to class feats of the same level?
Another possibility is that they've adjusted Bloodline Spells so that Hypercognition is an Imperial Bloodline spell. Possibly as part of normalizing how many Bloodline spells are from other lists between different Bloodlines.
I hadn’t thought of this. I actually really like this idea.
Hmm. . . Radical, yet reminiscent. TWF to Sword and Board. His armor looks much slimmer making him look smaller than he really is, and seems like a hit and run type fighting style. I’d have to see a side by side comparison to know if i like one better than the other, but i can’t think of a critique to give. This just looks very well done and the different, although very reminiscent, new art style.
Overall: Good job, looks very well done. : D
My hesitancy on the idea is based on how radical the change might end up being, and how well such a change would be received right off the bat; as well as the practicality and possibility of them actually going in this direction by this point in the development.
So my reasoning for it as an alternate ruling would be for future production of spells and spell lists; testing how well such an idea would be received; any potential balance issues; and still remaining reminiscent enough to 1e that it doesn’t feel completely alien for those that give it a curious glance.
I think you’re right with the best way to implement the idea would be from the CRB; and if they do implement it by some chance then i hope it’s well received. I’m just not hopeful that they will from the get go; if the idea was even discussed among them to begin with.
I (personally) think an eloquent way to solve this is as such
A friend and i were coming to this very conclusion when discussing it yesterday. Personally i like the idea of Tiefling(and others) being an Ancestry; but i have to admit, the idea of Universal Heritages is just as intriguing. I would see an outcome like this just as much of a win as the Ancestry idea; with Ancestry feats that bring out the uniqueness of the race similar to how H.E. and H.O. have their own unique set of feats.
I was thinking of trying this in a home game and seeing how it feels. Personally it feels odd that a Wizard can specialize in Necromancy and not know how to inflict wounds/harm. This would also allow them to stay true to the Mental/Material aspect of the Arcane Spell list without taking away from Wizard. The difference between Universalists and Specialists would become more distinct and meaningful.
I’m not sure if this would be in the CRB, or if i would want it in the CRB to be honest, since it can be considered a rather hefty change to how some iconic things work; but i would 100% vouch for this in an Ultimate Magic as an alternate rule.
That would definitely make the school choices much less attractive on two levels. I haven’t looked close enough to know about some schools not really having spell choices altogether; that one’s good to know. I know Cleric was rather underwhelming to play with such an un appealing list choice, but that’s for another thread.
That would make sense, but only at face value. They can use Arcane Focus once per spell level, so esenctially a free spell slot. This free slot comes with two important conditions; 1) must be a spell prepared that day, and 2) must have cast that spell. It’s not like they get a pool of Arcane Focus uses that they can spam on the same level of spell, and they can’t even heighten or lower the spell; they just ‘echo’ a spell they have already cast.
While i do find the 1st tier School Powers underwhelming, the 2nd tier powers are much more useful; at least the one for Conjuration is (Dimension Step).
Also on the spell slot they lose out on; i should correct myself on that. The Spell Slot Universalist Wizards lose out on can be assumed to be their highest level spell slot. Which over the course of a characters career will make more of a difference, especially if they end up competing against a specialist.
So far it seems the real issue isn’t the Universalist School being all that powerful, but rather the other Schools being a bit underwhelming by comparison.
Universalists lose out on one spell per day and a school power option; unless they use the feat for the universalist power, in which they then lose out on one spell per day for utility. How were the schools skewed towards Universalist? If it’s just about the class feat then can’t the same argument be applied to Humans which got an ancestry feat which allowed the same thing?
I will say that some of the other School Powers were somewhat lackluster, such as Evocation being a worse Magic Missle. Maybe i’m just missing something; which is why i’m curious.
The Gold Sovereign wrote:
While I like the way HE and HO were treated as heritages, I'm with those that prefer the plane scions to be a stand alone ancestry that's able to take either their outsider or native blood as heritages.
This is what i meant with my example, but maybe using the H.E. heritage muddied the example.
I agree with your example with Tiefling Ancestry; with Oni and Native. With a third, Mixed-Blood Heritage, working like the 'H.E./H.O.' heritages currently for Humans, but under the Tiefling Ancestry and allowed to pick any other Ancestry as it's 'second half'.
Captain Morgan wrote:
I agree 100%. It feels very natural how it played out. I can picture it working similarly for Aberrant, Angelic and Demonic bloodlines just as well. I just don't see a direct link aside from good writing; but i can be wrong on that. Just playing Devils' Advocate on the idea is all.
Captain Morgan wrote:
This is a very good point that i certainly missed, and can agree with. Personally i hope the lists share the generic and keep the specific. i.e. share Hypercognition but not Soothe or Arcane Missile; but that's just my opinion on that.
In the end it fuels the fires of anticipation till we can find out in just over another month. :3
I think she used Hypercognition. 3rd level Occult Spell in the PT, and requires a verbal component (she asked a question to herself). So maybe they’re gonna share some more spells between the spell lists? I believe Arcane and Occult share the ‘Mental Essence’ so it would make sense for the spell to be in both lists. It could also be a Power, but i don’t know why it’d be tied to Imperial Bloodline over the others.
My preference would be for Aasimars to be an ancestry with heritage like "Musetouched" who have a level 1 (must be taken at level 1) ancestry feat
This is basically what Heritage Feats were originally.
I really like how the Half-Elf/Orc feats were made. Feelings on the Half Races/Ancestries being demoted into Human only feats aside, making something similar for Planar Ancestries but reversed i think would be a good middle ground for the people looking for it.
As an example; let’s take Elf. As of one of the updates to the PT an Elf is able to choose a Heritage of Arctic, Cavern, Keen-Eared, or Jungle. If you take Half-Elf as written for Humans as a Heritage and give it to the Elves as a choice instead, but with the ability to choose any other Ancestry as per Adopted Ancestry, it essentially works out and fixes the early issues with the Adopted Ancestry Feat as well.
If you take this idea and apply it to Tieflings, for example, it’ll allow for Heritages that delve deeper into their Infernal roots or as a template for others.
This seems like the better choice so far. It allows a trade off for more prominate Heritage choices like you described, or a more versatile Heritage.
To add to some of the mentions about Adopted Ancectry; i agree that the feat can do a certain amount of what people are looking for, but with it, as of the PT, being locked behind a General Feat as early as 3rd level and the next Ancectry Feat at 5th level it doesn’t end up sitting well in more specific cases.
I agree with Cabbage on some of this. The Key thing to think of is, ‘is the Class able to be made iconic enough to stand on it’s own’; to the point that Multiclassing would be the lesser option.
Magus could be jury-rigged with a Martial/Caster combo and the Magical Striker feat with what we currently have. It also has a chance to be made into something completely new and unique.
Using Bloodrager as an example; it could be tweaked into a Raging Caster. Give Rage damage to spells and the ability to cast a spell the turn you start your rage.
Though only time will tell.
My comment wasn’t meant to encourage a standardization of behavior, but rather that using a two handed instrument and a weapon is impractical to the point of stretching possibility (both realistic and fictitious) and should remain that way mechanically as well.
The iconic bard uses a flute(or piccolo, not sure) and a rapier. In no picture that I am aware of is he using both at once, and generally shouldn’t. If a player wants to use both then it would have to be invented in a pragmatic way; either through a commissioned weapon with an instrument attachment of some sort, or a magical weapon. Either way it requiring GM approval
I’m surprised no one has mentioned ‘El Kabobong’ as a gish idea yet. Maybe it’s just me. :/
Thematically a gish wouldn’t use a two handed instrument and a weapon; too impractical. That said if this is a road a player wants to go down then your best bet is a Weapon/Instrument hybrid. The Hunting Horn weapon class from Monster Hunter would be great inspiration for this. Some examples are generally a two handed mace that doubles as a bagpipe; a two handed axe that doubles as an ’electric’ guitar. You could use an Interact Action to change grips and use the other part, or just let it flow without requiring an Interact Action.
Depends on how they're themed. Giving them a power that says they can use the Crit Specialization of their weapon on a regular hit at the cost of a Focus point? That would sound just perfect.(this would not double the dice like a normal crit).
Spell Adjacent options would be better saved for a Fighter Archetype; or just straight Multiclassing.
This sounds like how Kinetisist works; with the adding tricks or utility to an otherwise basic ability. I agree this would be a good avenue to go down; though not for a core book. For something like this I would hope for a separate book that could flesh the idea out a lot more than just part of a chapter; and would also hope for that opportunity to imagine Powers for the Martial classes in a way unique and iconic to them. Something like a Fighter or Rogue being able to ‘boomerang’ a thrown weapon.
Might be worth coming up with some ideas when the Core Book comes out. I’ll have to give this some thought.
Actually i find Fighter to be quite invaluable as a base class. It is much more generic than the other Classes, but i find that to be it’s most defining strength in builds. From what i’ve read so far i like the direction they are taking the fighter in P2e; it still needs some sanding around the edges.
For P1e, there are a surprising amount of fringe yet powerful builds that simply could not be possible without Fighter. I had one player that made a competent Whip focused build that couldn’t be possible or practicle without Fighter being as generic and flexible as it is. Another was one where i used Snakebite Brawler, for the weapon specialization and bonus feats; the added Sneak Attack was just for icing.
Personally I don’t want to have every class be excellent at fighting; and i do want One class to be above the rest at combat from a thematic perspective.
I could see this one being included. The ability to give other party members access to rage, or a lesser form of it, through your inspirations would arguably be more useful in P2e. Especially if it gave access to any amount of temp HP.
I agree. This would also be a fantastic system to make the Effigy Master Prestige. I know i'm gonna be thinking one up.
I mean, I like the idea of a super mystical sensei type monk with high Wis and Cha, I just feel like a non-charismatic monk should be able to be mystical on the basis of their high wis (even if they are low cha).
Well currently I believe there is an opt-out option for a number of classes. Monk can gain a spell point pool based off their wisdom; and even says that when two point pools are possible, take the greater of the two and add 1 point.
So if Paizo chooses an option for Charisma based pools, a Monk would hopefully just grab the ki pool feat and use wisdom over charisma.
An important bit about the skeleton ranged bite and monster rules is that he called it a TEMPLATE ability, implying you can swap it out for other things, a bit like Dragon spellcasting can be swapped in by removing frenzy and momentum.
I’m picturing a Dragon Skeleton throwing a ‘fast ball special’ at the Wizard in the back.
One idea i like most with the theme of PF2 is consolidation and simplification. For that i was brewing an idea for a PF1 alternate Mana based Casting system.
1) Spell levels = Mana Cost - Magic Missile costs 1 mana while Fireball costs 3 mana. . . and so on.
2) Spells still are locked by Spell Levels - No level 1 fireballs and such.
3) All spells available to cast can be heightened to the highest available spell level, and the Mana Cost will be adjusted as such. - Wizard casting a 3rd Level Magic Missile costs 3 mana.
Class Level | Mana
Sorc learns 2 new spells every odd level and 1 new spell every even level( or you can have them learn
Wizard prepares 1/2 level(rounded up) + int mod spells for daily preparation. (this one sounds pretty much like the 'Arcanist' casting people have been saying)
For Wizard i would still keep Quick Preparation to switch out one spell at a time per 10 minute wait. This would keep the iconic feel of foresight == power and the Wizard as a utility based caster.
Sorc ends up having a larger list to cast from on average but ends up lacking on the utility side in most cases. This should be attractive for players that want to Learn and Burn.
This should on average make both casters feel rather interchangeable but leaving their niche intact; and i feel any real differences in raw power should be expressed in the feats rather than the Mana Pool.
Instead of just giving Sorc more Mana and calling it a day, something like Blood Tapping (similar in theme to the current Blood Magic Feat); an example being dealing 1d6 bleed dmg to yourself and gaining back that much mana.
Blood Tap: 1d6 ⇒ 5 Take 5 bleed dmg and gain 5 mana back
For the Wizard we keep not only Quick Preparation but also Arcane Focus. Arcane Focus would work along the lines of the ability to cast the same spell the Wizard cast the previous turn but for no Mana cost (at the same heightened level); with something like a 10 min cooldown.
Bard i would probably place with Sorc; or for those that want a Prepared Caster Bard, Wizard.
Depending on feedback i might expand on feat choices for Wiz and Sorc.