I recall you couldn't use a Shield and Tiger Slash as it specifically requires "both hands" and Dragon specifically says "kicks" but other than that I don't think there were any other strict requirements for any of the other forms.

"You kill what you eat, you eat what you kill."

Claxon wrote:

Tender Tendrils wrote:

My favourite character concept so far in this edition is a barbarian specialised into using intimidation to apply the frightened condition, bonus points if she is a goblin with the wolf instinct so that she is a tiny, screaming ball of pure rage that is running around biting people in the throat (like the bunny in Monty Python).

How did you come to terms with the fact that intimidation to demoralize only lasts one round and that the target is immune for 10 minutes after that? If you're really lucky it last 2 rounds but still can't be repeated.

We have a good answer to this question now: be a Lizardfolk. Frilled heritage gives you a Stride+Demoralize action that inflicts Frightened 2 on a success, which makes the whole routine far more viable.

Hmm, I wonder if there is any synergy between this and Dragon Style? (Specifically Dragon Roar)

Frilled Dragon Style?

prototype00

The Doorstopper

1) be a primal caster
2) Monk dedication at lvl 2
3) Mountain Stance at lvl 4

You select all the "XXX Form" shapeshifting spells. In combat, you change shape and activate Mountain Stance for the +4 status bonus to AC. XXX Forms AC is a fixed number so the DEX cap does nothing. Now you have excellent AC but can't do anything.

At level 5 with Insect Form you have AC 27. A Champion in Full Plate and a shield (+2) has AC 25.
At level 11 with Elemental Form you have AC 34, the same as our Champion now with +1 armor. And at level 19 with Nature Incarnate you have AC 48 with the Champion with +2 armor having AC 47.

Pretty hard to hit but you can't attack, cast spells and only with Dragon Form do you have hands to even make maneuvers. You are the mighty Doorstopper :)

Its amusing with Pest Form. Pest Form has no "obligatory" natural attacks, so you are free to use the full powered Mountain Style Strikes, with the AC boosts.

I'm not recommending that you do this, as pest form sucks on account of physical vulnerability, but the tiny rat that does xd8 + str damage and has a +4 status bonus to AC is amusing.

prototype00

Whats the Thief Rogue Aldori Duelist build look like, I wonder? Are there any tricks for it? (I should build one for myself and see, I suppose).

prototype00

It’s Class DC, iirc, so Str or Dex, depending on what you chose.

prototype00 wrote:

I'm probably pretty basic as far as Ki goes. I just picked Ki Strike as my main ki power and everything else as utility. That way I get to use Ki Strike (fingers crossed) 3 times every fight, or something like that.

Not sure if you're making this mistake.. But it's happening often: Without special feats, you only get back a max of 1 focus point per 10 minute rest. You can't gain back 3 points by resting 30 minutes.

See p.300, and look at the requirements of the Refocus ability.

I’m quite aware that you require the two meditative feats to regain 3 focus points, yes.

I'm probably pretty basic as far as Ki goes. I just picked Ki Strike as my main ki power and everything else as utility. That way I get to use Ki Strike (fingers crossed) 3 times every fight, or something like that.

Hmm, if you Critical Demoralize someone and somehow keep it on, thats a +1 or +2 penalty to their AC, and then you can pick up Dread Striker from Rogue for another +2 because of flat-footed.

Shadar Aman wrote:

Mathmuse wrote:

For a less ridiculous restriction, what about setting up a campsite, cooking and eating dinner, and removing armor in order to sleep? Won't fatigue affect those?

Based on my own experience with fatigue, yes. I suggest requiring a will save in order to summon the willpower to cook dinner and get undressed. If you fail, you just lie down and sleep.

Based on my own experience with fatigue I can finish the last 10 miles of a forced march.

I can run 3 miles in 23 minutes (3 minutes slower than normal).
I can troubleshoot complex systems, and repair them.
I can stand sentry.

Your humblebrag is noted, lol.

I too have had to do likewise in I imagine similar circumstances. Having a shouty-man hurl imprecations and threats at you does do a lot to alleviate fatigue.

Are Monks and Druids with Timeless Body/Timeless Nature still susceptible to dying of old age? Or are they functionally immortal barring death by misadventure?

Stunning Fists uses Class DC which uses Strength/Dex.

The only thing that uses Spell DC for monks is Quivering Palm and Ki Blast, IIRC.

prototype00

If you are thinking in terms of PrCs, there were 10 lvl PrCs, 5 level PrCs and even 3 level PrCs!

Student of perfection might be a 3 level PrC or something (and TBH, I might just take it for the Perfect Strike Reroll, swapping Focus for Rerolls is a pretty good deal).

prototype00

Seisho wrote:

Dragon Styles Dragon Tail attack is also compatible with a Barbarians fury which (damage) benefit is halfved for agile weapons - and backswing is the next best thing

How do you justify (in your mind... not to me) the mix of the barbarian losing control (rage) and the disciplined nature of a monk? A weakness/ mental issue? Which one would be the archetype?

So way back in PF 1e, there was this monk archetype called the Scaled Fist that was the absolute antithesis of the wise, disciplined, contemplative monk. These guys were based off of Charisma and were total self-aggrandizing show-offs, cowing others with their intimidation and infinite self confidence. That's what Dragon Monk in part draws it's inspiration from, and I could definitely see these guys drawing out the dragon's fury and raging.

There was also the monk martial artist who eschewed the philosophical trappings of all these martial arts and who concentrated solely on beating people's skulls in.

Martial arts is not all Kwai Chang Kaine self knowledge and wisdom. Pathfinder has always had all sorts of ways to beat face with fist and some of them interfaced very well with Barbarian (I recall Martial Artist/Barbarian was considered to be a very potent combo).

I thought about mixing these 2 classes but I cannot get past that mix in the nature of the class. The only way I would do it would be if I had the Moment of Clarity barbarian feat. This is also my issue with a monk using a tower shield, I think I could see a buckler shield but not a tower. I might try the tower shield to see if I can enjoy this style.

More than likely, the first Mountain Stylist was a half-naked Dwarf heaving with rock like muscle and sheer stubbornness. Why wouldn't they also wield a giant slab of metal the size of a barn door?

Most of the 1st level stances do not allow use of any other attacks except the one allowed by the stance, so in most cases weapons are out. Unless I misunderstand the stances/ rules.

Actually only Mountain and Crane require unarmed, all the others (3, dragon, wolf, tiger) you can use with weapons.

Broken Lands Chapter, just saw Jubilost and Jamandi Aldori!

Made me hanker to play Kingmaker again. Thanks for bringing them back!

Justinian9 wrote:

That is true! And I should have had the damage die 1d10 as Mtn strikes (i can't remember there name) are d10

d10: Dragon tail. Agile is replaced with Backswing, which is a straight up downgrade. You also don't get Finesse. So this is the stance for monks who have both good Strength and Dexterity - Dex for AC, Strength for attacking. I'm not sure how good the stance benefit is, ignoring the first square of difficult terrain on a Stride - that seems like a very context-dependent ability. It would be very helpful with hit-and-run attacks though: Stride over some terrain with Incredible Movement, kick'em twice with Flurry of Dragon Tail strikes, and then Stride back.

Falling Stone becomes 1d10 at lvl 18 with Diamond Fists, quite a tempting feat for Mountain Monks.

Dragon Style has Dragon Roar which with some clever multiclassing can net you +3 to every attack by lvl 8.

prototype00

1. I can't understand why a Monk focus point pool is limited to 3. To be a Ki Monk (Unlike the other classes) a Monk has to pick heavy Ki feats. You can have a pool of 3 as early as 2nd level, however I think level 4 would be the norm. You can't regain 2 focus points until you pick Meditative Focus at level 12. So saying for most combat you will only have 1 focus point to use while Ki is your main weapon in combat. It is almost like they don't want you to be a Ki Monk, just a Monk that can once or twice a fight use Ki. But use a bunch of feats to have options.

I do not understand this restriction, seems very limiting, can some one please explain?

Errrm, every class is limited to max ever a pool of 3 focus points, it says so on pg 300. Sorcerors only have 3, wizards only have 3, so in a way, Monks have the most Focus points of any class...? (3)

2. The example of a Ki Monk on page 162 in the core book says you should pick occult for your spell like abilities (I say this as occult is one of the skills picked on the build). I do not understand this... is it because occult skill is used versatile in day to day play? Occult is an Int based skill while Divine is Wis based. Seems to me you need the higher stat to be wis for the saves, Ki saves, and perception. Why pick occult over divine?

Thats kind of a flavour thing, mysterious user of Ki = Occult. Its a trained skill, you don't have to take it if you don't want to.

3. I see no value in Mtn Stance as with the spread of your points across so many ability scores you will not stand and fight toe-to-toe... move, hit, move! It also limits you to one form of attack. Am I missing something?

Mountain Stance allows you to focus your ability points in Str, and ignore Dex so I'm not sure why you would be very spread out. Mountain Monks can start with one of the highest starting ACs in the game (23 with a tower shield) so heck, you can just stand there and take it. Let all the enemies pile onto you while you flurry them unconscious with your rock hard fists. (You also are one of the most damaging Monks out there thanks to high Strength)

4. Is a shield and/or Bracers considered Armor. I think a shield is but bracers of def would be okay to use as a monk. Am I correct?

Nope. Shields are not armor, you can use them as a monk and still get your unarmored proficiency bonus to AC. Bracers (of armor) are not armor either. So not sure where you are getting this info? Both are great for monks.

5. General thoughts:

I am an old D&D player from back in the 70's... it seems to me that Stunning Fist, Water Step, Wall Run and (maybe) Deflect Arrow should have been core with feats to enhance them.

Most things are feats now, thats just how it is. You build your character in a modular fashion rather than HAVING to take most abilities. Makes for more customizability. I like it, personally.

I do not understand how the fighter can have a better unarmed strike than a Monk.

He has a better unarmed accuracy than a monk, but is:

- Stuck at 1d4 nonlethal damage
- Attacks at -2 if he attempts to do lethal
- Has no ways to boost it (unarmed being not weapon attacks, so literally none of a Fighter's abilities work with it)

I'll... stick with the monk for unarmed, thanks.

I also do not understand the slow progression of monks unarmored defense. 12 levels at your starting proficiency seems very slow for a very core ability.

Thanks in advance for responses.

Once again, I am at a loss of how to respond here. Monks (and Champions) are the only class that gets it at this level. They are the FASTEST in the game at advancing armor proficiency. I mean, if that is the case, all the classes are slow as molasses, aren't they?

prototype00 wrote:

Just started building this, you can do this +3 to all attacks combo by 8th level, but it will take your 2nd, 4th and 8th Level class Feats to do it (and 6th is Dragon Roar) so kind of intensive.

But once you’re there, you can start to backfill needed low Level Feats (like Stunning Fist and Stand Still) I suppose.

This is why human is the best - you can take the multiclass dedication at 9th and take the rogue feats at 10th and 12th levels, using the rest of the slots for set up.

Made a mock up here . Make sure the tower shield is a dragon skull.

Hmm, I'm not sure putting off the acquisition of all the parts makes everything that much better (especially since you end up at the same place once you've taken all the feats). I.e. I kind of like to aim for 8th level for the entire build and then spend the next couple of levels building up Ki points so that I can spam Ki Strike twice per fight.

But I must admit, I'm new to the tinkering so I'm perhaps mistaken.

Edit: By the by, looking for advice here, any must have Skill Feats for this character? I find myself just picking the ones I have the highest proficiency for.

Just started building this, you can do this +3 to all attacks combo by 8th level, but it will take your 2nd, 4th and 8th Level class Feats to do it (and 6th is Dragon Roar) so kind of intensive.

But once you’re there, you can start to backfill needed low Level Feats (like Stunning Fist and Stand Still) I suppose.

For a Human stat array I'd likely go...

A: Human (+2 CHA/DEX)
B: Warrior (+2 STR/CHA)
C: Monk (+2 STR)
D: +2 STR/DEX/CON/CHA

If you're willing to take flaws in INT/WIS you can pump your strength up to 18 but if you really want demoralize to be your main thing I think you need to get charisma up to 16.

Hmm, that stat flaw is looking more and more tempting. You just have to play him/her as an unselfaware idiot, which probably fits this kind of monk.

Would Assurance Intimidate mitigate the stat issues (allow you to not boost Cha) you think?

If you're going to go with the Barbarian multiclass, I'd say that the best Instinct to go with would be Animal rather than Dragon. Since your main offense comes from Dragon Style, it means that the Animal Instinct's anathema is no problem for you, and if you choose one of the Animals that gets a grapple unarmed strike, like ape, shark, or snake, you get better that grappling your opponents, and thus keeping them afraid of you.

Heck, the Snake instinct isn't even entirely off-brand for you. Just say that your particular style is based off of linnorms rather than true dragons!

Hmm, its a neat idea, but getting yet another 1d10 Unarmed Attack (You already have Dragon Tail) seems a bit superfluous?

Couple of Questions for fellow forumites:

1. I’m wavering between Human and Goblin, Goblin has the better stat spread but humans have Nice Ancestry Feats. (Pick up Ki Strike for even more damage!)

2. How much Cha/Dex/Con would you pick up? Str can go to 18, but would, say 14 in everything else be sufficient (only possible with Goblin) for demoralize shenanigans?

3. Besides Intimidating Prowess, any other Skill Feats I should focus on?

Sneak Attack is superfluous on the Rogue Multiclass, really. The selling point there is a free extra -2 to enemy AC. Which is absurd.

I had a Bard combining that Feat with a Bastard Sword and Dirge of Doom in the playtest and she was very frightening when she had the actions to be. The Monk version is probably better, since they have more action economy enhancers and don't have to spend an action on maintaining the fear every single round.

Hmm, yeah that makes a whole lot of sense. Rogue Multi might be the way to go then, take Dread Attacker at 8th level and then start enjoying +3 to hit whoever you're targeting...

(The trick, dear readers, is by the time you finish with one target, hopefully Dragon Roar is off cooldown and you can stick the next target with a massive penalty as well).

Sounds good.

You can go towards rogue MC instead of fighter and also grab Flurry of Maneuvers and then:

Not only you frighten people, but those people are automatically flat footed to you.

Those flat footed to you, you deal +1d6 damage

You can Dragon roar into a Flurry of maneuvers, Grabbing two adjacent enemies, to keep them both FRIGHTENED, still, and flat footed for the rest of the party.

Extra points if you picked "str damage on a grab" since as a Dragon monk you most certainly build Str.

Hmm, Rogue sneak attack is agile or finesse only, and Dragon strike is neither of these things, so it's not as synergistic as I originally thought. Dread Striker (Rogue 4) is nice though.

Barbarian also seems like a nice Multi, as you can get 2 free skill feats for the low low price of a Class Feat (Raging Intimidation Barb 1), and Rage is super synergistic with Dragon Style.

You could multi Barbarian and Fighter and also pick up Fearsome Brute (Fighter 10) for always on extra damage (but at 20th level, eesh).

Hmm, Barb is 2 feats, then you switch to either Fighter or Rogue (with Human Ancestry Multitalented 9)?

I'll see what I can come up with in Pathbuilder 2e...

prototype00

Now back when Men were Men and Goblins were CR1 abominations, there were two things that made life good for Monks:

1. The Scaled Fist Archetype that let you bluster your way with Charisma instead of Wis.
2. Dragon Style, which heaped hellacious Damage onto your Unarmed strikes.

And you could combine everything with Power Attack and Cornugon smash for even more damage etc, etc.

But now I notice that Dragon Roar, the upgrade for Dragon Stance (already top tier Damage) has the potential to be the most consistent demoralizer because unlike regular demoralize, the penalty will not decay below 1 as long as you are standing next to them, so potentially, you could open with Roar and keep the penalty on at least one for the entire fight.

But there it ends, as Monks don’t have much synergy with fear. Some strategic multiclassing might solve that as fighters have nice stuff.

So I’m brainstorming for the return of the Scaled Fist, I’ll post more when I’m home, but I think it has potential for a potentially Cha based monk, what do you think fellow forumites?

Dragon Monks are probably the best debuffers in this regard as they can keep one enemy frightened the whole fight.

So I thought I’d compile dev answers for 2e in a google doc until we get a faq.

That’s where I need your help, I’m not a panopticon, so I need you to help me post here in this thread this info:

- Dev giving answer
- Query and Reply
- Source if I need to do some verification

And once there are enough answers, I’ll put them in a word doc and post it on google, hows that? Help me help you. :)

Actually, they are incompatible, as you can only use the Wild Shape Strike in Wildshape and you can only use the Falling Stone Strike in Mountain. By the rules you can't use them both at the same time.

prototype00

Rather than waste further time arguing it with you lot here, I have done the useful thing and asked it in the Faq thread.

prototype00

With regards to the Skill Feat Battle Medicine, how many free hands, if any are required to use it during an Encounter and is a Healer's Kit also required on hand?

prototype00

pauljathome wrote:

Well, it probably beats the MASSIVE orphanage that used to be run by the gnomes. The one that turned out 90+% of paladins.

Paladins of Shelyn, of Iomedae, of Irori, of Abadar. Even, rumours hold, a long time ago Paladins of Asmodeus. It doesn't matter. ALL came from that orphanage

What is this a reference to? Fey foundling ?

The fact that one of the premiere Champion Weapons is the Gnome Flickmace, which, one way to access, is to have been raised by gnomes.

Everything Ive read from Paizo on this is they view folks using RAW against GMs as a thing they actively wanted to avoid in this edition. Ultimately, the GM has the final say and he shouldnt have to read 5 billion of pages of ever shifting rules in advance to lay out every bit of nonsense he disagrees with prior to play.

All I know, is I tell all my players that I play with Fictional Positioning at my table. The rules lay out a broad guideline of the possible but ultimately, the reality of the moment wins out. I think this is one of those moments where it rests on plain common sense.

Trying to bandage a party member that is bleeding out while trying to hold on to your greatsword is just plain dumb.

As to PFS, honestly, I think that expecting any GM, even a PFS one, to be little more than a rules conveyor is just crap.

You play your table, man.

In my experience as a player, theres usually enough games going out there that if you have the questionable fortune of DMs that have their hackles up about the "common sense" of the Rules as Written (how "common" is it if you are the only person in this thread that believes it?) you can find another table that suits you better.

prototype00

As a GM, I personally don't care what kinda rules lawyery nonsense a player tries to cook up here. You want to patch up your buddy, you need two hands and a kit.

You can access it a bit easier by putting it in a bandolier. But thats about it.

Common sense, folks.

The Rules as Written (aka Rules Lawyery Nonsense to all surprised/bushwacked DMs).

If you play in Pathfinder Society, (I'm not saying you have to or are, just that its the place where the Rules take precedent) thats how it works.

As a player, my base expectation is that the game follows the rules. If the DM wants to change that, then obviously I need to evaluate the situation at the table.

One thing I'm trying to understand is "what on earth are falling rock strikes"? Other stances tend to specify what part of the body you're using or correspond to real-world or cinematic styles approximately.

RAW, anything apparently. Heavy Shoulders, short front kicks to the shins, vicious backhands, falling elbow drops.

Mountain, for all that it is imitating rock, is remarkably free-style..

Tiger is actually kinda restrictive. Tiger Slash requires BOTH hands to perform. (So no shields)

So I've got the book now.

The Duelist looks solid, even for those with which its strengths overlap. Getting even one additonal skill up that brings something to expert is fantastic in a system in which your total number of skill increases (outside of rogue) is rigidly restricted.

Some of its stuff overlaps with things fighter already gets, but most of it is still handy. There is only one truly obsoleted feat (out of 6 so you absolutely still can finish the dedication without it) and it is a level 4 feat that is obsoleted by a level 13 feature. This means you can get the level 13 feature 9 levels early and then retrain if you ever actually get to 13. That is pretty amazing!

For non-fighters there are some solid feats that give you a lot of free and reactions to really feel good with the weapon. This is especially nice for classes that otherwise lack a reaction.

Hows the Student of Perfection?

I had a question regarding Flurry of Blows. While in Mountain Stance and doing a Flurry of Blows, would the penalty be 0/-5? Or is it 0/-4? Although my understanding is that it's only that if using an agile stance?

It’s 0/-5, Mountain uses Falling Fist Strikes which are Forceful but not Agile.

prototype00 wrote:

Edge93 wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

Kyrone wrote:

The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.

Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.

Mountain Stance + 2 from dex and a Tower Shield taken cover behind doesn't reach? Just curious?

Edit: Though Mountain Stance will always do more damage than a crane stylist, so I guess its a bit of a trade off.

it takes 2 actions to take cover behind a tower shield, it takes 1 reaction to crane, they are not really comparable.

The thing is, Monks can take those two actions much more often than other classes and still get their two attacks in.

Anyway, I'm still not sold on Crane, but if people have fun with it, who am I to argue?

prototype00

Also Crane is 1 action per fight, Tower is 2 actions per TURN. Also a massive difference. Shield sacrifices lots of attacking/moving/anything else-ing, Crane doesn't. And that matters for SO much in this edition.

Heck, tower shield prevents the Mountain Quake to Flurry combo you were so fond of, among other things.

Like, you totally can make a tower shield Monk, I'm just saying it's at enough trade-off that it's far frok stomping other defensive paths, or other paths period.

(I know the quoted post was mostly just about how high a Monk could possibly get their AC in a given moment, but with the handwave of the two action cost it felt like a decent springboard for some commentary on the tradeoffs)

I’m not saying it is stomping on other defensive paths (though I still don’t like Crane), it’s just that all of Mountains available actions (raise a shield, take cover, quake, flurry) are good, which is more than I can say for Crane’s low Damage Strike.

I do kinda feel like the -1 per die is more than you give it credit for.

And the perpetually lower damage due to being Dex focused and lacking any damage boosting weapon properties like backstabber, yes.

prototype00 wrote:

shroudb wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

Kyrone wrote:

The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.

Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.

Mountain Stance + 2 from dex and a Tower Shield taken cover behind doesn't reach? Just curious?

Edit: Though Mountain Stance will always do more damage than a crane stylist, so I guess its a bit of a trade off.

it takes 2 actions to take cover behind a tower shield, it takes 1 reaction to crane, they are not really comparable.

The thing is, Monks can take those two actions much more often than other classes and still get their two attacks in.

Anyway, I'm still not sold on Crane, but if people have fun with it, who am I to argue?

prototype00

Also Crane is 1 action per fight, Tower is 2 actions per TURN. Also a massive difference. Shield sacrifices lots of attacking/moving/anything else-ing, Crane doesn't. And that matters for SO much in this edition.

Heck, tower shield prevents the Mountain Quake to Flurry combo you were so fond of, among other things.

Like, you totally can make a tower shield Monk, I'm just saying it's at enough trade-off that it's far frok stomping other defensive paths, or other paths period.

(I know the quoted post was mostly just about how high a Monk could possibly get their AC in a given moment, but with the handwave of the two action cost it felt like a decent springboard for some commentary on the tradeoffs)

I’m not saying it is stomping on other defensive paths (though I still don’t like Crane), it’s just that all of Mountains available actions (raise a shield, take cover, quake, flurry) are good, which is more than I can say for Crane’s low Damage Strike.

Kyrone wrote:

The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.

Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.

Uh, how so? The highest AC you can get with Crane Stance is:

+5 Dex (as both explorer's clothing and Bracers of Armor cap Dex at +5)
+3 Item
+3 Circumstance (reaction)
Legendary Proficiency

Total: 10+level+5+3+3+8=29+level

While a fully upgraded Mountain Stance, unless I'm getting something wrong, grants:

+4 Status
+2 Dex
+3 Item
+2 Circumstance (Mountain Stronghold, 1 action),
+ Prof
so: 10+level+4+2+3+2+8=29+level.

So Mountain Stance should net you the same AC as Crane Stance, with a couple notable drawbacks (namely, it won't stack with status bonuses and it will cost 1 action instead of a reaction), but it will work against every attack instead of just one.
Am I missing something?

Ah, so you can’t get max Dex benefits (+7) and still benefit from magical armour, whereas Str doesn’t have that problem, interesting.

prototype00 wrote:

Kyrone wrote:

The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.

Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.

Mountain Stance + 2 from dex and a Tower Shield taken cover behind doesn't reach? Just curious?

Edit: Though Mountain Stance will always do more damage than a crane stylist, so I guess its a bit of a trade off.

it takes 2 actions to take cover behind a tower shield, it takes 1 reaction to crane, they are not really comparable.

The thing is, Monks can take those two actions much more often than other classes and still get their two attacks in.

Anyway, I'm still not sold on Crane, but if people have fun with it, who am I to argue?

prototype00

The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.

Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.

Mountain Stance + 2 from dex and a Tower Shield taken cover behind doesn't reach? Just curious?

Edit: Though Mountain Stance will always do more damage than a crane stylist, so I guess its a bit of a trade off.

prototype00 wrote:

vestris wrote:

I think the mobility crane stance grants has been underestimated here especially with skill feats like quick jump.

I appreciate mobility as much as the next guy Vestris, but does that really warrant bumping up crane style? I’m not so sure, especially since I don’t think IIRC stances can be used in Exploration mode?

Mobility is important in combat too, the ability to leap over difficult terrain can make a big difference in how much distance you can travel in a turn as an example.

This could be good if the enemies use difficult terrain, or even if your party creates difficult terrain to make movement difficult for enemies. You could possibly leap over enemies instead of attempting a tumble too or such things.

I agree with all of this, but:

1. It seems kind of situational, and doesn’t excuse at all the bad damage.
2. Monks were already pretty great at Athletics?

I just can’t in good conscience say that Crane is on par with Tiger, Wolf or Tangled Forest. But that’s just my opinion.

I think the mobility crane stance grants has been underestimated here especially with skill feats like quick jump.

I appreciate mobility as much as the next guy Vestris, but does that really warrant bumping up crane style? I’m not so sure, especially since I don’t think IIRC stances can be used in Exploration mode?

In the playtest, at level 9, I used Wolf Drag + Flurry several times. The one time I landed a Drag crit, I think I did more damage that round than several of my party members did the whole fight. Although the change to Striking Runes has lowered that a bit, I think it's still a lot.

Either you get frequent crits against lower-level enemies, that likely one-shot them, or you hit a boss and knock them prone. I think it's pretty good.

I must admit, I wasn’t considering the possibility of knocking any boss prone, no questions asked. I’ll bump up the rating of Wolf one or two dots.

Wolf Stance **** Feat 1

Once again decent damage 1d8 and Finesse, and oh, would you look at that. One of the Rarest Weapon Traits in the game, Backstabber. Two weapons have this and neither do 1d8 damage. So add +1 (and +3 eventually) to your damage every time you are flanking, and this weapon can Trip Foes with your dex mod as well. Overall an interesting choice.

Wolf Drag *** Feat 6

With the recent comments on how this can knock down automatically a foe that is of any size this seems better to me (I was just thinking originally that trey could get up right after if initiative was unfortunate).

Wolf Style Overall ***

I would put Wolf Style on par or slightly better than Tiger, and both are definitely better than Crane.

Don't forget wild winds gust. Pretty cool to have a 2 action aoe attack, imo.

Ah, completely missed this one, I’ll add it in when I’m back home.

prototype00 wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

prototype00 wrote:

Ironblood Stance ***** Feat 8 (Edit all this: I'm an idiot)

Decent damage (1d8) for Str Monks and you can Parry, Sweep, (which is if you attack a different creature with your second attack, you gain a +1 to hit) which is really just a more conditional agile, which is nice. The Damage Resistance is the real draw here, and the way shield block works, you can have the DR of the damage applied to the Shield, then halved and applied to you, and you get to apply your own DR from Ironblood Stance to it! Super Tankiness!

Ironblood Surge ***** Feat 14

Forget the Parry Bonus, you can increase your own personal DR to +7 at the maximum end as an action meaning that if you Flurry, Raise your Shield and Ironblood Surge, you are taking only ((Incoming Damage - Shield DR)/2) - 7 damage!

I think you're confused about how shields work. When you shield block reaction you reduce the damage by the hardness of the shield, but then you fully apply the remaining damage to both you (which reduces your HP and may kill you) and your shield (which reduces its HP and may break or destroy it). There is no halving going on.

Ah, my mistake. Still the Hardness of the Shield and the Damage Reduction of the Stance should both apply, yes?

prototype00

I'm guessing the idea is you're using a shield here instead of the Parry trait, and taking the Shield Block general feat? Because Parry weapons don't shield block.

You would assume rightly, fellow forumite. You stack the hardness of, say, a sturdy shield and your own inherent DR all to mitigate a bunch of damage.

Huh, I'll have a review of Wolf Drag tomorrow then, no worries.

prototype00

prototype00 wrote:

Ironblood Stance ***** Feat 8 (Edit all this: I'm an idiot)

Decent damage (1d8) for Str Monks and you can Parry, Sweep, (which is if you attack a different creature with your second attack, you gain a +1 to hit) which is really just a more conditional agile, which is nice. The Damage Resistance is the real draw here, and the way shield block works, you can have the DR of the damage applied to the Shield, then halved and applied to you, and you get to apply your own DR from Ironblood Stance to it! Super Tankiness!

Ironblood Surge ***** Feat 14

Forget the Parry Bonus, you can increase your own personal DR to +7 at the maximum end as an action meaning that if you Flurry, Raise your Shield and Ironblood Surge, you are taking only ((Incoming Damage - Shield DR)/2) - 7 damage!

I think you're confused about how shields work. When you shield block reaction you reduce the damage by the hardness of the shield, but then you fully apply the remaining damage to both you (which reduces your HP and may kill you) and your shield (which reduces its HP and may break or destroy it). There is no halving going on.

Ah, my mistake. Still the Hardness of the Shield and the Damage Reduction of the Stance should both apply, yes?

prototype00