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I've long supposed that the cavalier is somewhat underrated.
I rather like them honestly and I'm sad I dont see more of them around. And what I do see is them mostly being written off as a one trick pony(heh!).
So, in the spirit of a previous thread I did let's see what we can do to show people what he can do.
Build stuff.
Stick to 20pt. buy. Level doesn't really matter though 11th level and below is likely preferred for the pfs crowd.
Challenges
Mounted Emphasis The class does tend to emphasize mounted combat. This isn't really bad it just requires some thought in regard to tactics. We've already seen plenty of halfling dog and boar riders. I think medium sized riders can work pretty well in cramped environments if they're willing to emphasize other aspects of their character and not try to charge so much.
Limited Mount Choises You practically have to either burn two feats, hope your gm allows leadership, or take an archetype (which turns certain other decent archetypes off).
Poor Mountless Options Well, not exactly poor. But nothing too great. The huntmaster has the potential to be awesome but it makes the same mistake the broodmaster made by splitting everything between multiple things, which just makes everything bad. Really the best reason to take it is for the bird that blinds. The musketeer would be good but, again, it makes the same mistake every gun archetype ever makes.
Teamwork feats are limited They're good if you have the right group. Devastating in a certain kind of group. But tactician is a very limited sort of ability. If it worked like Bard Song it would be infinitely better. Instead you have to blow an action for ability that doesn't last very long and often doesn't get much use.
I think ACG will change this immensely since teamwork feats are making a return with the Hunter class and probably making much better ones since developers and freelancers have had tons of time to see how the current ones work. That being said I love certain ones like Outflank, Paired Opportunist, and Lookout. They're all amazing. The challenge isn't so much mechanics as culture. People honestly just think more individualistically in terms of their build. Not long ago I was playing a swashbuckler when I noticed literally everyone picked up combat reflexes and was begging people to take Outflank with me (I had a 15-20 critrating! I crit at least once every full attack! Come on!). And only one guy seemed to begrudgingly like take to the idea of just getting tons of free attacks and extra bonuses on flanks. Anyway, rant off.
Challenge is one of the weaker combat boosts It gets better over time. But rage and smite it ain't. And there's no means yet to get extra challenges. So builds can't really rely on it too much.
So let's get started Ima post some builds I've cooked up in a bit. Unlike the rogue thread which has no good place to parse and store the info I've got a place that can just add a builds portion to for the better things.
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This is just a second level rogue, but the goal is to become a Rogue 4/Cav 4/Low Templar 10/Cav 2, with specialties in sneak attack and improvisational fighting. This is a guy who starts fights early and often.
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Feats: Halfling (BEast Rider Order of the Guard)
1 Mounted Combat
1B PAired Oppourtunist
3 Power Attack
5 Ride By Attack
6 Spirited Charge
7 Combat Reflexes
9 Indomitable Mount
9B Outflank
11 Furious Focus
Traits: Fate's Favored and Militia Verteran
Feats: Deinonychus (Ability score increases go to Int, charger archetype)
(Assumes Cavalier level not HD)
1 Power Attack
2 Imp Overrun
5 Charge Through
8 Outflank
10 Lunge
Good overall saves between Fate's favored and halfling luck. Outrider, Militia Veteran, and Indomitable mount keep your dinosaur up and happy.
If armor matters to you you can switch out some feats for light and medium armor proficiency since bardic training will ensure a fairly high armor class with little ACP to worry about. The dinosaurs many multiple attacks make the loss of multi attack hurt but charge bonuses make up for that. Outflank and a falchion means you can afford to get off your mount from time to time and take advantage of your order abilities (just make your mount your ward and you're all set).
A courageous weapon helps you immensely as you get morale bonuses from your banner as well as morale bonuses from your order.
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Order of the Tome Horselord
1 Weapon Finnesse
1B Look Out
3 Mounted Combat
5 Ride By Attack
7 Spirited Charge
9 Wheeling Charge
9B Shake it Off
11 Power Attack
Horse (Charger, stat points into Int)
1 Power Attack
2 Combat Reflexes
5 Fleet
8 Fleet
10 Lunge
Straightforward harassment and harrying build. The agile enchantment is your friend here since you're pretty feat starved as is. Two levels of fighter can give you a couple of more feats after 9th. Get envoy to expand your utility options a bit and get arcane strike.
A dex build is tough to pull off it seems. I went with something quick and nimble that moves very quickly.
I am not going to do any full build stuff (not enough time), but I somewhat disagree with the view of the huntmaster.
I'll agree that splitting things up among ACs is a rather poor choice, but it is not the main reason to take huntmaster in my opinion. Instead, I find that the bestial challenge is more important.
On a standard bird, challenge is a rather nice buff to their damage since it provides them with up to an additional 20 damage on their three natural attacks, which all hit at full BAB. If you stick with only one bird, you can come out of it with a fairly competent flank buddy (who you could load up with the teamwork feats you keep on getting). And its speed insures that it would always be able to get into a flanking position.
Also, if I am not mistaken, the animal companion also has its challenge affected by the cavalier's order, doesn't it? Imagine someone with the order of the dragon flanking with their challenge. That would be enough to (circumstantially) make it comparable to a paladin.
So, overall, it seems like an interesting option for someone that wants a mix of a bit of 'knight in shining armor' with rangers.
I can't help but sense another "Rogue Thread" debacle.
Oh Tark, you lovable scamp.
Hey that rogue thread was quite productive once you bludgeoned people into line to actually do things.
Well, there's still unmounted stuff to play with, plenty of archetypes to explore luring cavaliers to get into, etc. etc.
I don't have the full build, but one of my players plays a supportive tank Cavalier, using the Honor Guard archetype and the Order of the Dragon. The party is full of offensively inclined, but less defensively powerful front-line attackers (Bloodrager, melee Inquisitor and Magus). He focuses on standing next to them and using Bodyguard with the bonuses from Order of the Dragon and his archetype to give around +5 AC I believe, which he can increase if he uses Saving Shield. If he doesn't, then he can take damage for his allies using In Harm's Way.
He increases damage from the other players by using his Challenge and order bonus to give the other meleers extra attack bonuses. He moves around the party using a combination of his Strategy ability and Coordinated Charge, which he gives to everyone using Tactician. He also isn't too bad damage-wise when hitting his Challenged foe, but obviously does not deal as much as the dedicated melee fighters.
In the time I've GMed this group, he's used his mount a grand total of once, in the very first session his character joined the party, and he sent it away before combat even began. He's gotten opportunities to use his mount, but he's always forgotten because it's not at all vital to his build.
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Show the Cavalier some love!
Picturing Order of Cockatrice with "Free Hugs" on shield.
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Had my PFS inquisitor get killed in the last fight of the 3 scenario at level 1...yes, a couple more rounds and he would have been leveling. I read through your cavalier guide Tark and almost pulled the trigger on building one to play next. I would have been behind the others in the group so I used my ranger instead.
I'll admit I really like the class, really want to play one. I can't decide to go small or medium and find the right place for my choice. In the PFS one I was going to go Halfling and outrider and all that.
Show the Cavalier some love!Picturing Order of Cockatrice with "Free Hugs" on shield.
"Hugs" is an orcish word for "punch in the jaw and brag about it."
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Strangely, most of the build ideas I have for Cavaliers are multiclass. Probably because Horse Master is a thing.
Like Cavalier 5/Steel Falcon 2/Battle Herald
or Dune Drifter Cavalier 4/Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger
I've liked the cavalier for a mundane buff bot.
With honor guard (or just taking the body guard feat) helpful and order of the dragon you can drop some serious bonuses on people's AC. Take the teamwork feats that allow unprovoked movement and caster protection and maybe even the shield wall one to provide cover and concealment for your allies and you can really screw up the enemies battle plans.
It honestly doesn't take that much to do (even with the cavalier's limited feats) and helps him add something other than "I'm a variant fighter".
Cavalier (order of the star) and cleric mesh well leading into the holy vindicator.
Finally I used the cavalier as the primary class for my noble scion.
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Totally random builds I did a while back here, here, here, and here. All are made with standard NPC stats, and pretty effective to some degree.
The third has some Druid levels, and is legitimately less useful sans Mount, but I included for completeness.
The fourth is technically both mountless and a samurai...but the reason he's scary would apply equally well to a Cavalier who happened to have a mount of some sort...and he could be made notably more effective pretty readily by adding PC wealth to make his weapons keen and grabbing Butterfly's Sting (which would give him something to do when not using Challenge to buzzsaw things).
Inner Sea gods has graced us with another interesting build. 5 cavalier, 10 evangelist of Gorum.
Its not optimal by any stretch, However I've never been one to min max.
you lose out on bab and health for all the benfits of evangelist. Not a great tradeoff however it does make you more diverse outside of combat.
I personally really like as playing one. It solved my problem of competing with the fighter cementing my role in the "jack of trades" 4th member role
I'd actually be quite keen to see some builds "as a consumer." :) I'm in the market for a 7th level character, and the idea of a Medium-sized (half-orc or human) "switch rider" cav had some appeal to me. The kind of guy who, when he has a charge lane, booyah, but if not, just fights from horseback, or even gets off if he has to ("What do you mean he has to wait outside the cathedral? Are you questioning my horse's piety?") without it being the end if the world.
Is that a thing that can be done?
Thanks,
Ghorrin Redblade
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I played a vanilla Cavalier (Order of the Dragon) from 1st through 12th level in a recent campaign. The party was made up of mostly heavy-hitting martial PCs (a great-sword wielding barbarian and a bastard sword wielding paladin). When he was mounted he could keep up in terms of damage output, but off his horse he was kind of anemic in combat. That was my fault as I built him to be a generalist PC with a high Dex (to make him a superb rider) and a decent Cha (to make him a leader and party face) and Int (for extra skill points). The rest of the party were much more focused in their builds.
He was able to throw lots of bonuses to his fellow party members in combat, act as the party Face out of combat, eventually became general of an army, and when he WAS able to charge on his horse with a lance he was pretty devastating. One of my favorite characters of all time, BTW. I had a blast playing him. From the beginning, I built him to basically be a "warlord" and it worked out great.
He started the game with three horses (His companion mount for fighting, a riding horse for getting around, and a pack mule) and an unskilled retainer named Baldrick to look after the animals. Spent all his cash on them and bare-bones equipment and started as a penniless free-lancer. Ended up as one of the most powerful nobles on the continent.
I think Cavalier builds can work well.
Human Luring Cavalier (Order of the Tome) 7
Str 14 +2 (5 points)
Dex 18 +4 (7 points +2 race +1 level)
Con 14 +2 (5 points)
Int 14 +2 (5 points)
Wis 12 +1 (2 points)
Cha 7 -2 (-4 points)
Traits: Indomitable Faith, Bruising Intellect, Eyes and Ears of the City
Drawback: Paranoid
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Escape Route, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Multishot
Skills: Perception, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Handle Animal, Ride, Linguistics, Diplomacy
Camel Mount (Racer Archetype)
Str 22 +6
Dex 18 +4
Con 16 +3
Int 3 -4
Wis 11 +0
Cha 4 -3
Feats: Run, Endurance, Fleet
I love the cavalier for flavor, as I am a huge medieval history nerd. Though I love my GF's triceratops rider.
Before coming to this board, I never understood the "large mounts are too big for dungeons" criticism. I always thought that it was up tot he GM to just make the dungeons a little bigger. If the bear got into the cave then so should you.
I now realize that it might be a PFS thing. I don't play PFS but I imagine the maps are standardized and might make the dungeons too small for horses or mastodons.
The bigger problem is what happens when the cavalier has to dismount to enter the throne room to talk to the king but It's a Trap! I would still say a good cavalier would not be useless but it does lower their effectiveness a little. At least they get more skill points for social skills, unlike the fighter.
Doesn't Alain love himself enough as it is?
Wait could my goblin cavalier with the beastrider archtype turn his worg into a large worg? could he call him wolfy? .... ah so weet
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Here's a TWF Huntmaster Build. Huntmaster's make natural TWF guys. This guy's order works exceedingly well with his bird. And Outflank works well with the huntmaster's abilites.
Human Order of the Lion
Traits:
Adopted(Gnome:First Memories)
Latent Psion
Feats
1 TWF
1 Double Slice
1B Paired Opportunist
3 Arcane Strike
5 Quick Draw
6 Step Up
7 Imp. TWF.
9 Combat Reflexes
9B Outflank
11 Two Weapon Rend
Bird (No archetype) Score increases go to Int
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Agile MAneuvers
5 Combat Reflexes
6 Step Up
8 Power Attack
10 Flyby attack
A pretty solid and versatile build. Quickdraw lets you chuck nets with impunity at the start of fights while flyby attack gives you solid ways for your bird to chuck alchemical weapons.
Ultimately the idea is to slow down and stop opponents so that getting them into a flank/full attack with your bird is easy. Paired Opportunist/Outflank + PAck Attack means loads of free AoO's so absolutely take advantage of them. I chose lion just beause Huntmaster kills your main support abilities and Lion makes up for that somewhat.
You cna also go for Dragon as well if that floats your boat.
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This is a THF Huntmaster Build more about control/mobility and less about raw damage output.
Huntmaster ORder of the Shield
Human
1 Power Attack
1 Combat Reflexes
1b Paired Opportunists
3 Dodge
5 Mobility
6b Step Up
7 Combat Patrol
9 Spring Attack
9B Broken Wing Gambit
11 (Dunno honestly)
Dog
1 Dodge
2 Mobility
5 Spring Attack
8 Combat Reflexes
10 Combat Patrol
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A Cavalier 4/Warpriest 16 is a pretty good approximation of a "Paladin" for alignments other than Lawful Good.
His Cavalier Order edicts acts sorta like a Paladin's Code.
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I am playing an Order of the guard Huntsman currently. Over all its pretty fun, I am currently 10th level so I am really looking forward to next level since getting into flanking position seems difficult due to bad guys using walls and difficult terrain to their advantage. When I am not flanking, my damage feels pretty sub par due to missing fairly often or just barely hitting when I do connect. This makes it so I cannot utilize power attack very much. BUT when flanking, with power attack and challenge up. I can end a BBEG in one round due to outflank with my puppy.
I am contemplating switching my dog for a bird pretty soon but overall I prefer the flavor or the dog. One thing I will say, my dog, unless flanking, never, hits. It drives me crazy.
I my damage output is about 30 DPR or 80 DPR when flanking with my dog, and 150ish when challenging while flanking with my dog.
While I don't have any interest in Cavaliers, I too would like to see them getting some nice toys, if only to allow other players to have their fun and increase character variety.
I don't think Large mounts are even close to being the problem most people claim them are (no one complains about Druids' having Large Animal Companion or Wildshaping into Large creature, and everyone says the Large Size evolution of the Summoner is great after all).
However, the other points are very valid criticism. Add to their few skill points (Yeah, they get 4, but 2 of those are pretty much forced into Ride and Handle Animal anyway. :/). The over-dependency on his mount, lack of versatility are pretty bad and focus on Teamwork feats are all pretty big flaws.
'til Paizo makes Cavalier more effective (and, more interesting, since they're rather bland IMO), I'll use others classes for my mounted warriors...
Well technically if you go for using your mount as a fighting companion instead of a method of increased mobility. It is really just one going into handle animal.
IIRC, there are a few Mounted Combat feats that require X ranks in Handle Animal.
I'd actually be quite keen to see some builds "as a consumer." :) I'm in the market for a 7th level character, and the idea of a Medium-sized (half-orc or human) "switch rider" cav had some appeal to me. The kind of guy who, when he has a charge lane, booyah, but if not, just fights from horseback, or even gets off if he has to ("What do you mean he has to wait outside the cathedral? Are you questioning my horse's piety?") without it being the end if the world.
Is that a thing that can be done?
Thanks,
Ghorrin Redblade
Dude get a camel armor it and pump Str on your human/half orc ,let the camel debuff and flank for you. Go order of the dragon as the class skills are nice and your abilities apply to ALL allies including your mount. Teamwork feats can be nice I like outflank, escape route, the precision damage one and paired opportunist.
I'm looking at making a halfling cavalier/oracle and eventually going into mammoth rider. Your mount goes to 6 INT, becomes huge, you can cast some spells to help it, and if you decide to go the aid another route, you should be giving something like a +6 to almost any action with by being in the Order of the Dragon.
At that point, your mount (specifically a wolf) will do most of the damage, will trip basically everything, and be able to take just about any feat you can.
Mine was going to be a Samurai 7/Nature Oracle 2/Mammoth Rider 3 (for PFS). If you take the second character level in Oracle, you get the 6 Int early enough to make use of it for feats.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. If you are not riding in combat, you are only really going to put one rank per level into handle animal.
Uh... That's my point. Half the Cavaliers' ranks go to Ride and Handle Animal, so in the end, they only have 2 skill ranks, like Fighters. And 2 skill ranks per level is barely enough to be mediocre at a single skill "role". It usually takes at least 3~4 skills to be actually good at something.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. If you are not riding in combat, you are only really going to put one rank per level into handle animal.Uh... That's my point. Half the Cavaliers' ranks go to Ride and Handle Animal, so in the end, they only have 2 skill ranks, like Fighters. And 2 skill ranks per level is barely enough to be mediocre at a single skill "role". It usually takes at least 3~4 skills to be actually good at something.
You don't really need to max handle animal too much. I tend to dump my animals fairly quickly in favor of smarter/stronger mounts. In face is handle anaimal even necessary once your animal hits certain intelligence bits? I can get a horse with 12 int surprisingly easy. 14 if I want to get wacky.
Ride is a must due to mounted combat but only if I bother being mounted.
And every order usually gives a hefty bonus to one skill or another for a purpose.
I tend to build humans with at least 12 int even on high charisma so I usually have what I want.
It's funny, I was recently trying to find some good Cavalier builds, since I think the class is a bit under-appreciated (and slightly too reliant on mounts to function in dungeon-centric games). With that in mind, I came up with the following:
Half-Elf Cavalier 1 (Order of the Cockatrice)
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 14
AC 19 Touch 12 Flat 17
HP 11
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +0
Traits: Bully, Eyes and Ears of the City
Feats: Combat Expertise, Swap Places
Skills: Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +10, Perception +7, Ride +6, Sense Motive +4
Equipment: Scale Mail, Longsword, Heavy Wooden Shield, Backpack, Hemp Rope, Grappling Hook, Bedroll, 10 Torches, 4 days Trail Rations, Shortbow, 20 Arrows, Warhammer, 28gp, 8sp
This is what the build looks like at level 1. Fairly basic. So what's with that big Intimidate score? Well, at 2nd level you can start using Braggart to drop an AOE debuff on enemies from the front line, which also provides you with a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls...a +2 that you can easily launder into an AC bonus using Combat Expertise, making this a fairly effective tanking build, IMO. Swap Places allows you to play rescuer to teammates who get out of position.
Things to do differently? Well, if you switched to Half-Orc and sacrificed Combat Expertise for Skill Focus, you could pump Intimidate up to +13 by the time you hit 2nd level. I like the idea of an arrogant, loudmouth half-elf who taunts her enemies. I was more tempted to replace Eyes and Ears of the City with Fortified Drinker (I like Cayden Cailean more than Abadar, personally), which would drastically lower the Perception check, but provide you with a much-needed boost to Will Saves vs mind-altering effects.
Any good suggestions for making this build better?
I have been thinking about what I would assume to be a pretty standard halfling cavalier for pfs.
power attack + risky striker + challenge + charge with lance + order of the paw giant slayer bonus
this little guy has a size complex and has something to prove.
"halfling hero"
cavalier (emmisarry) - order of the paw
str 14
dex 16
con 14
int 10
wis 12
cha 10
racial: fleet of foot or outrider
traits: helpful (halfling), dangeriously curious
1: [mounted combat], power attack
2:
3: [cavalier's charge], risky striker
4:
5: [mobility], ride-by-attack
6: spirited charge
7: improved overrun
8: [trample]
9: [trick riding] charge through
.
.
.
???
Don't really like how he is so charge oriented though. I might push back the mounted feats a bit to pick up combat reflexes.. not sure. Power attack is all i really need to be decently helpful out of saddle anyway if I carry around a 2 handed sword. his will save sucks too, although fearless and lucky help. A 13/16/14/10/14/10 spread might be better but gimped a bit; the damage will be hurting until 4 when you can get str to 14.
Any advice?
edit: a variation:
emissary/honor guard
1: [mounted combat], power attack
2:
3: [bodyguard], combat reflexes
.. etc down mounted line fitting in risky striker.
You can give +5 ac as an AoO to an ally with bodyguard but you lose a nice bonus to hit when charging. Still, this version would be more helpful to a party I would think.
Design Manager
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*** In fact is handle animal even necessary once your animal hits certain intelligence bits? ***
"Smart Kitty: If you have increased your animal companion's intelligence score to 3 using various means, then great! You can now have your companion learn any feat it can physically perform, and it can put ranks into any skill. What this increase does not accomplish, however, is any advantage in commanding your companion whatsoever. It's still the same DC 10 to handle and DC 25 to push. It may still only learn six tricks plus your druid bonus tricks. However, for every point of Intelligence it gains above 2, that is three more tricks it can learn. A smart animal will have more versatility without needing to rely on pushing."
That's a shame but there you go.
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Design Manager
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The trick with the cavalier is that he's as good at the mounted charge without a single resource being spent on it as many characters who've dedicated themselves to mounted combat.
There's also lots of cool tricks you can leverage your Teamwork feats for, like using Escape Route to ensure that you and your mount never provoke an AoO for moving again, or snagging the Beast Rider archetype and using Broken Wing Gambit to give your ankylosaurus mount free attacks that can stun the enemy.
Cavalier is a seriously solid martial class, with damage potential the Paladin can only match by popping a few spells and smiting. The fact that the cavalier's Challenge isn't alignment restricted is also a really big plus, and handy for those times when the enemy isn't a demon or dragon, but instead just a giant pissed off dinosaur or other animal or magical beast. The fact that he pulls double-duty with a couple decent buffs definitely doesn't hurt things either.