Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
There has been a lot of discussion about the Arcanist and most of the feedback resolves around how much the class sits between the Sorcerer and the Wizard without offering a unique view on arcane casting. The design team agrees and we are going back to the drawing board on some aspects of this class.
To that end, some of the parts of this class are back in design and we are hoping to share the revisions with you very soon. Before we get to that, I wanted to share with you the new direction we are exploring to get some feedback and hear your thoughts before we get too far down the trail on the revisions.
First off, lets talk about the overall theme of the class.
We are dropping the weak bloodline concept and taking this class in a different direction to give it its own conceptual space. Here is what we have in mind:
Arcanist
Some spellcasters weave magic into a beautiful tapestry. Others draw upon their innate gift to produce magic. The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is, the arcanist is able to pull apart magic, ripping the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey her will. It is not an easy task, but it allows her to use magic like no other. She can consume her spells, and eventually those of magic items and other spellcasters, to fuel her powers. She can use the raw essence of magic to create powerful effects, both wondrous and deadly.
We are pretty excited about this as a concept. The arcanist goes from someone who is half wizard, half sorcerer to an arcane spellcaster that focuses on tinkering with the fundamental forces of magic, tearing apart the bonds and forging new ones with its power. This understanding also allows her to cast in a new way (represented by the existing spellcasting mechanics).
Of course, that is not all we are doing to this class. To match up with its new flavor, we are reworking a number of its class features. Blood Focus is being pulled, along with its bonus feats for an entirely new class feature.
The arcanist will gain access to a wellspring of magic, an arcane reservoir. Calling upon this reservoir, the arcanist can create magic effects. As the arcanist gains levels, she learns new ways to spend this magic (selecting from a large list of features, like a rogue selects rogue talents). Starting at 1st level, she can also consume her own spell slots to gain more magic in her reservoir. At higher levels, she can learn to pull apart lesser magic items (potions, scrolls, and the like) eventually learning to tear down standing spell effects. Got a wall of fire in the way, the arcanist will be able to deconstruct the magic that binds it, gaining power in the process.
So... that is where we are currently heading and the design team is interested in hearing your thoughts. This is not an official update as of yet, but it is coming together quickly. Thanks to all those who are participating in the Arcanist thread, helping us identify problems and find solutions.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I hope the core spellcasting stays the same, but I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the redirection we're seeing here. This is the "Chosen One" mage that the Avatar, Pug of Crydee and countless other mages are built around.
I can't wait to see the update.
Kind regards,
DM_aka_Dudemeister.
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This is something I am for, a class that uses a pool to cast spells in a way similar to the Magus, but much better, changing it so that it is used more for spells, then just recalling them, and memorizing them. The new concept seems to me like a walking Dispel Magic that turns the magic they've dispelled into other spells.
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NOW WE'RE TALKIN'!
I thought the Arcanist was pretty boring thematically (and mechanically) as-is but this sounds like it could be awesome!
Well, that's certainly a radical change. Looking forward to this.
This sounds pretty cool.
Edit: That doesn't sound enthused enough. This sounds frikken awesome. Love the Pug analogy Dudmeister.
I might run an Arcanist when the update comes.
I like the new direction...reminds me abit of the Incantrix.
Definitely interested in seeing what you have in mind.
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So at some point in her level progression, the Arcanist will get something like an at-will (or x/day) vampiric Dispel Magic? Interesting.
Hard to say much about it without seeing what sorts of things she can actually *do* with the pool, but I really like the flavor. Can't wait to see what y'all come up with for this.
This definitely seems like a more interesting way to take things.
Depending on how versatile the arcane reservoir abilities are, they could be used for an interesting balance point by having more limited spellcasting but making the most out of magic items—in effect, something like the 3.5 Artificer's theme (if hopefully less abusable). One example that comes to mind would be burning arcane reservoir points or spell slots to put temporary charges into wands and other magic items.
As long as they fix their spell-casting so that it does not out class the wizard or the sorcerer and make them obsolete then It will be a fine class in my opinion with its own unique flavor.
I am loving this new direction for the Arcanist. I've always enjoyed characters of a more raw, primal direction. Having a caster that fits the theme will be fantastic.
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The spellcasting mechanic is not something we are planning on changing.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
How about altering the numbers a bit? I think that's one of the biggest balance concerns, that they get as many spells per day as a specialist wizard, but without any opposed schools and they have the ability to cast their spells in any combination that they prepared.
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Ah, the flavor is actually interesting now. It was rather dull before, IMHO.
But to be honest, it's the class spell casting style that made me worry about it obsoleting Sorcerers and Wizards, not its class features (mechanically speaking, those are just gravy for full casters).
I still like the idea behind the class (mixing two different casting styles) and I'm still worried about its impact on game balance, but these news give me hope that the new Arcanist will have more unique mechanics and be a better balanced class.
I'm excited to see how it turns out.
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Now this is the kind of concept that all the new classes should be approached from. Take an existing concept and give it an interesting an unique twist.
This feel much more like the wow effect we got from seeing the Magus for the first time. I can't wait to see what you come up with.
(Please take the Brawler back to the drawing board the same way)
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This idea speaks to me WAY more than the previous Arcanist did. The basic concept has some actual flavor, and Talents + Magic could be very interesting mechanically.
That said, I wonder about the extent of the "deconstruction." On the one hand, if the benefit is insufficient, tearing about lesser magic items will be rarely done and tearing apart active effects will be a fancy dispel magic. On the other, if it pours into a universal pool that can be drawn on for strong effects, it will become a "bag of rats" problem. Although in this case I guess it would be a "bag of scrolls of mage armor" or "whatever the Bloodrager wants to give up to be ripped down" problem.
The other thing, of course, is that the casting is already very good. Unless it is weakened in some way, the design space of what the Magic Talents can do might be very small.
Okay, okay, enough fiddling. Yay, new direction! Yay, cool concept! Yay in general!
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Very interesting. An anti-mage of sorts.
Why stop at magic items and standing effects though? A 'Snatch Arrows' type ability that works against spells could be a lot of fun! Snatch the magic missile out of the air and absorb the energy in to your magic pool.
The spellcasting mechanic is not something we are planning on changing.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Oh, that's disappointing.
It seems Sorcerers (and possibly Wizards) are still doomed to become completely obsolete.
:(
I LIKE it! Whoohoo! I could not get into the previous version, but this concept is very much better and more original. Me likey!
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Lead Designer
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The spellcasting mechanic is not something we are planning on changing.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerOh, that's disappointing.
It seems Sorcerers (and possibly Wizards) are doomed to become completely obsolete.
:(
I would suggest you look into a lot of the build comparisons that are floating around out there before you pass judgement in this regard. That said, I would really prefer that this thread not get derailed on the casting mechanic. Please use the main Arcanist thread to discuss that particular issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I would suggest you look into a lot of the build comparisons that are floating around out there before you pass judgement in this regard. That said, I would really prefer that this thread not get derailed on the casting mechanic. Please use the main Arcanist thread to discuss that particular issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I did look into those build comparisons, but fair enough. I won't talk about the casting system in this thread.
I echo others in hopes for the prepared/spontaneous spellcasting stays the same. That being said, I am LOVING the sound of this direction.
Flavor-wise, this direction also gels nicely with the arcanist's parent classes. A wizard's education gives him the theoretical understanding of magic that makes the arcanist's abilities to tinker with magic even thinkable. But, it takes the raw power that comes from a sorcerer's inherent gift for magic that makes such tasks even possible.
Very glad to hear about this new direction and excited to see where it will go...!
PS. I would caution against making the reservoir abilities too similar to what the magus has, to avoid confusion about the arcanist's parentage, so to speak.
That is incredibly cool and I love love love that direction.
Sounds interesting and flavorful! Bring on the changes.
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With this new direction, it should be interesting to see when high level Arcainists face off against enemies like Runelords......
Karzoug:"Say goodbye petty mage!"*casts maximized fireball at Arcainist*
Arcainist:*Reaches at the fireball coming towards him and upon impact is absorbed into his body now brimming with energy*
Karzoug:*Stares dumbfounded*
Arcainist:"Bye Karzoug."*casts maximized lightning bolt and kills the runelord* "Don't forget to write."
That sounds super awesome, I liked the Arcanist already this is just spectacular sprinkles on top. I hope we get something like this for the Shaman soon!
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The new direction seems interesting.
Perhaps the horse has left the barn, but I like the idea of someone with an innate spark who studied and honed his magic. This kind of reminded me of a "harry Potter" niche.
I also think it might be easier to introduce a new player to the way the arcanist cast spells when compared to the wizard. I think it will be easier to say to a new player, Here is your Grimoire, your spell book, and your character can memorize two spells first level spells for the day, you can cast either of those spells 5 in a day.
Anyways, the new direction sounds interesting. However the "lack of flavor" would allow us the GMs to put our own flavor in.
Just my two cents
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Yes.
Who was that handsome gent who said every class needs a talent/pool like feature... ?
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That sounds badass. However, how will this interact with things like magical traps? Would the Arcanist be able to just... eat magical traps for power?
So the whole "consume spells" and such...will this change the Arcanist's ability to learn new spells/study magic? I know you said the casting ability stayed the same, but I am just wondering if that consuming magic part merely talks about her ki/grit/panache pool mechanic. I actually like that the Arcanist uses a spellbook for instance
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Unexpected. And kudos for having the guts to do this at this stage and face the crowd.
The concept is fantastic and does fit the wizard/sorcerer hybrid casting on Int : what happens when you feel the magic in your very own blood, as well as outside, AND you consider it, experiment upon it, analyze and deconstruct/reconstruct it.
I like the reservoir idea too since it will allow even playtesters who are not happy with the final result to easily add their homebrew effects/uses for it.
Very well done.
So the whole "consume spells" and such...will this change the Arcanist's ability to learn new spells/study magic? I know you said the casting ability stayed the same, but I am just wondering if that consuming magic part merely talks about her ki/grit/panache pool mechanic. I actually like that the Arcanist uses a spellbook for instance
I think it refers to an ability that will allow the Arcainist to absorb spell energy into something like "Arcana Points" which he can use to enhance his own spells. He will still need to learn spells like wizards, though the possibility of learning spells by absorbing them sounds interesting.
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Lead Designer
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The spellcasting and the spellbook, and all the related mechanics are not currently being changed.
As a small aside, we take this sort of critical look at all of our classes. I think the Arcanist was in the biggest trouble conceptually, but there are others that need some work. That said, this is NOT the thread to discuss those topics. We will be reviewing those in turn as the playtest continues.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Flavor wise, it seems like this character is one who should have been a sorcerer, but chose the path of a wizard, not really likeing the way either of them pigeon-holed their spellcasting, invented his own way that incorporated both aspects.
Iconic should be an elf, with a hat. And a staff.
Please tell me that Arcane Bond is going to be an option for this class now. A full casting arcane class without the option of getting a familiar just seems wrong to me.
Personally, I feel the bonus feats were well placed, unless the class abilities allow for something equivalent, considering both the wizard and the sorcerer had options that gave them both additional feats.
Now THAT sounds VERY nice! And exciting! And actually probably different enough to warrant its own class! Thanks for taking the time to craft this! \o/
PS: One question, Jason, if I might be so bold: I don't have a problem with the casting mechanic at all, but the numbers worry me a bit. I won't derail this thread by going in-depth about that, but are you guys looking into that? As in "aware of players' concerns", not necessarily "changing stuff now"? I'm curious, and it would be nice to know that you're open to considering these changes. :)
THIS
This is the kind of flavor I've been looking for. I can't wait to see the revised class and may finally actually pull out a primary spellcaster for a game with this just from the flavor alone.
Very nice idea indeed.
But I am also a bit worried about the balance between the full arcane casters, since if it turns out to be the case, the arcanist will have all the most important aspects (mechanically speaking) for an arcane caster: flexibility in strategy, adaptability in tactics, and strong counter-magic ability.
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I like the idea of Arcanist taking a third option, ripping magic apart to use it. It sounds much more interesting than what it was before, not only mechanically but descriptively speaking.
A Wizard goes: "I pull out some stuff, wave my hands a bit, chant something, and poof magic!"
A Sorcerer goes: "I wave my hands, chant in the tongue of dragons, and poof magic!"
An Arcanist goes: "I tear the magical energies out of my wand, shape them into a ball and throw it at your face! How's that for magic?"
Or at least that's what it sounds like.
I can imagine an arcanist being able to temporarily suppress the powers of a magic item on-hand in order to use class abilities, etc.
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Shades of Blue Mage and Spellthief from the flavor...I must say, I am much more comfortable with that than the previous flavor. It feels like less of a retread of what was already in Pathfinder. I probably won't play it (I'm a Wizard fanboy and always have been), but I'm a lot more comfortable with this iteration of the class existing in my Golarion, and maybe with making NPCs that use it, than I was with the previous iteration.
