**Official Query** Arcanist Revision


Class Discussion

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Sczarni

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To be honest I'd be ok with a spell progression/line similar to the summoner even. If it made a class that was really unique.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Cheapy wrote:

Sean did necro a thread a couple months ago asking why a forum poster was disappointed about the lack of abjuration magic in UM... and asking what people would like to see. And it sounds like he was the one who proposed this new take.

How intriguing.

Lol, I was thinking about that thread as well.

I really like the new proposed thematics of the class, but I'm still concerned about the core casting mechanic being too good.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will take a few lines to quote how the three attributes apply from the core rulebook.

Core Rulebook wrote:


Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.

so in design,

Wizards use Int because their power is based on knowledge and Arcane Theory. To this everyone agrees.

Sorcerers use Cha as the source of their power influences and is tied to their personality, this is stated in the description of the sorcerer.

Arcainist by their description should therefore use Wis due to the fact that their power comes from innate intuition and from their common sense knowledge of Arcana. it is also stated that their power over magic comes from their will. So in relation between the class description and the definition set in the core rulebook, Wisdom should be their stat for spellcasting.

However this means at some point there should be a divine class that uses Int, like the Archivist from heroes of horror 3.5 WotC book.


Ssalarn wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Sean did necro a thread a couple months ago asking why a forum poster was disappointed about the lack of abjuration magic in UM... and asking what people would like to see. And it sounds like he was the one who proposed this new take.

How intriguing.

Lol, I was thinking about that thread as well.

I really like the new proposed thematics of the class, but I'm still concerned about the core casting mechanic being too good.

Having played with it before (WoW RPG) it's really not as bad as it sounds.

My one and only real concern is being able to fill prepared slots multiple times a day which would make the flexibility a bit too much.

Honestly I'd have to see the final outcome to pass a fair judgment.


zergtitan wrote:

I will take a few lines to quote how the three attributes apply from the core rulebook.

Core Rulebook wrote:


Intelligence (Int)
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.

Wisdom (Wis)
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.

so in design,

Wizards use Int because their power is based on knowledge and Arcane Theory. To this everyone agrees.

Sorcerers use Cha as the source of their power influences and is tied to their personality, this is stated in the description of the sorcerer.

Arcainist by their description should therefore use Wis due to the fact that their power comes from innate intuition and from their common sense knowledge of Arcana. it is also stated that their power over magic comes from their will. So in relation between the class description and the definition set in the core rulebook, Wisdom should be their stat for spellcasting.

However this means at some point there should be a divine class that uses Int, like the Archivist from heroes of horror 3.5 WotC book.

this was my logic when i first suggested it when the concept was announced. Wisdom just makes sensr for a more intuitive caster.

Sczarni

easy just change the flavor text to they have studied it and exert their own force into. (charisma also refers to force of character/personality)


yes, because we need another int or cha caster on the arcane side when an opportunity for something unique comes up.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

AndIMustMask wrote:
yes, because we need another int or cha caster on the arcane side when an opportunity for something unique comes up.

Totally. It would be pretty cool to have a Wis based arcane character.


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Kekkres wrote:
if i might make a suggestion, perhaps he can absorb a small amount of arcane points whenever he makes a save vs a single target spell that negates the effect? It might be too easy a source but it seems like it is just really cool imagery that fits where this is going. ALSO i would LOVE if at some point an archetype came out that pushed this into blue mage territory; IE using the supernatural abilities of monsters.

I was thinking the same thing.


Add me to those who'd really like the class to be Wisdom based. To me, mastering the arcane through careful deconstruction sounds more like Wisdom than Intelligence.

Sczarni

I guess I'd rather them not because of the fact they'll be stuck with 2+int skills most likely, if it goes wis I'd love to see them bumped up to 4+ int


i agree that 4+int would definitely be warranted if they're shifted to WIS casting, or they'll be kinda stunted on that front.


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Count my vote for to keep it an int based caster.


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Sorcerers get two plus int. Why should the arcanist have more?

Sczarni

sad but true =D


Cheapy wrote:
Sorcerers get two plus int. Why should the arcanist have more?

point.


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Because the sorcerer was shafted.

Also no class should have less then 4+int in skills per level.


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They are full casters.

I think they'll do no matter their skill points.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

BTW, the goal is to still have a lot of flexibility with this class, both in terms of how it absorbs and spends power. The standard class might have an ability to use sorcerer bloodline powers (which should be appealing to people who liked the original version of this class), or there could be an archetype that skews more that way.

Anyway, we had a really good meeting brainstorming this concept, I think this really improves the flavor and role of the arcanist class.

Sort of sounds like the Arcanist is going to be a walking Rod of Absorption. :D I homebrewed a Kit/Prestige Class something like that back in 2E/3.5E, called the Arcist. Could syphon magic from spells and items, and use it to cast spells, recharge items, enhance spells, etc. CAn't wait until the Updated version.

Liberty's Edge

Excellent! Totally excited about this new concept.

One mechanic I wouldn't mind seeing is something that makes counter spells viable. I've been playing 3.5 and Pathfinder from the beginning, and have never seen anyone actually pull one off. Right now, they are tricky to attempt and require a rather boring reactive style of play. The flavor of the new Arcanist is perfect to shake this up, and offer a new dynamic way for spellcasters to interact with each other.


better yet, hand an arcanist a rod of absorption and watch him laugh maniacally.


Shadar Aman wrote:
Unlike a lot of people, I think this is awesome. Wizards are my favorite class; I've tried other classes, and none of them are as enjoyable to play (for me) as Wizard. So if the Arcanist ends up being an alternate Wizard, then that doubles the classes I have to choose from!

As stated elsewhere, I'm coming at this from the opposite direction. I loathe Wizards and most other prepared casters, but the Arcanist does prepared spells combined with spontaneous casting in a way that makes me actually want to use it, and doesn't have to rely on something cool like Magus tricks or Witch hexes to get me to "tolerate" the prepared casting. So I actually can play the studious bookworm mage without having to just be a Sorcerer that lugs around a tome for the heck of it.

Lo&beholder wrote:

AND MAKE IT THE FIRST CLASS THAT AGES YOU.

Sure first level bump your character one age category up.

-1 str.dex.con. +1 int.wis.cha.

THIS on the other hand.... HELL NO.

Sczarni

orthose, I don't think there's a chance in any of the 9 levels of hell of the auto aging thing happening with a class.


The_Hanged_Man wrote:

Excellent! Totally excited about this new concept.

One mechanic I wouldn't mind seeing is something that makes counter spells viable. I've been playing 3.5 and Pathfinder from the beginning, and have never seen anyone actually pull one off. Right now, they are tricky to attempt and require a rather boring reactive style of play. The flavor of the new Arcanist is perfect to shake this up, and offer a new dynamic way for spellcasters to interact with each other.

you'd make ravingdork cry if he heard that--he has quite the monster dispeller/counterspell wizard built in his thread.

Sczarni

I've read it, and I don't consider it a monster personally, 1/day it's a monster sorta...

Shadow Lodge

My first thought is the dragon slayer magic from Fairy Tail. This is awesome!


Dragonborn3 wrote:
My first thought is the dragon slayer magic from Fairy Tail. This is awesome!

hey, natural weapon ranger (FE: dragon)/arcanist/EK might be pretty cool for that if it's a WIS-caster.

paladin for cha, and maybe plain fighter (or maybe swashbuckler) for int?

Ssalarn wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
My first thought is the dragon slayer magic from Fairy Tail. This is awesome!
Lol, I thought Natsu was more of a Bloodrager, but....

i agree, but hey, alternate build ideas are always cool for the odd ban-happy DM.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Dragonborn3 wrote:
My first thought is the dragon slayer magic from Fairy Tail. This is awesome!

Lol, I thought Natsu was more of a Bloodrager, but....


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Lo&beholder wrote:

Oh that makes sense in my head.

MAKE THE ARCANIST WORK OFF WISDOM.

The arcanist sounds like more than a force of personality and the sum of knowledge as opposed to experience and sheer will.

It doesn't favor wizard or sorcerer dipping.

AND MAKE IT THE FIRST CLASS THAT AGES YOU.

Sure first level bump your character one age category up.

-1 str.dex.con. +1 int.wis.cha.

Why do people want another wisdom class in a book that already has three?

Also: If we are talking about a guy who UNDERSTANDS magic. She doesn't have any of that wibbly wobbly intuitive b*!~$&!$ those tree hugging Druids and supplicating Clerics have to rely on (those animals). She recognizes the faults in spells and tears them apart because she knows better how that magical energy can be used.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Excaliburproxy wrote:
Lo&beholder wrote:

Oh that makes sense in my head.

MAKE THE ARCANIST WORK OFF WISDOM.

The arcanist sounds like more than a force of personality and the sum of knowledge as opposed to experience and sheer will.

It doesn't favor wizard or sorcerer dipping.

AND MAKE IT THE FIRST CLASS THAT AGES YOU.

Sure first level bump your character one age category up.

-1 str.dex.con. +1 int.wis.cha.

Why do people want another wisdom class in a book that already has three?

Also: If we are talking about a guy who UNDERSTANDS magic. She doesn't have any of that wibbly wobbly intuitive b*!+~+*! those tree hugging Druids and supplicating Clerics have to rely on (those animals). She recognizes the faults in spells and tears them apart because she knows better how that magical energy can be used.

The way I see it, if the arcanist uses intelligence, the flavor jsut sounds like a better wizard. It makes me feel like both have studied magic intensely and use their intelligence, but an arcanist sees how it truly works.

If it is wisdom it actually implies a different approach of feeling the magic and understanding and controlling it intuitively based on understanding the nature of magic as opposed to knowing a lot about magic and using it to write formulas.


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Cheapy wrote:
Sorcerers get two plus int. Why should the arcanist have more?

In a system with such active and vigorous errata, the question you should be asking is, "Why does anyone still have 2+Int?". Skills aren't precisely powerhouses but they're great for rounding out the flavor of a character and there's no need to shaft anyone with low skill points or narrow skill lists. Just about every class in the game could get 2 additional skill points per level and be just fine, balance-wise, while making the act of actually bringing concepts to life infinitely easier.

Admittedly sorcerers are just fine power-wise but, hey, at least this is a 'throwing a match on a fire' kind of power increase and not a 'let's add napalm!' one.

Dark Archive

I love the idea and hope it comes through great.


I love this concept.

Is the name of the class still on the table? I find "arcanist" way too generic, and doesn't especially fit the new concept. In the Class Names thread, someone suggested renaming the class Thaumaturge, which I love.

Liberty's Edge

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An Arcanist should use Intelligence for their spellcasting, and Charisma for their class features (the points they get to use their talents, and the effects of those talents). That covers both ends of the flavor: it combines the intellectual spellcasting of the Wizard (spell parameters, spellbook, preparation) with the inherent spellcasting of the Sorcerer (spontaneous spells, class features).

The Arcanist's flavor isn't that they're wise and intuitive, it's specifically that they combine their dedicated study of magic (Wizard/Intelligence) with their inherent connection to magic (Sorcerer/Charisma) in order to be better able to work with raw magical energy. That is very clearly a combination of Intelligence and Charisma, not Wisdom.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

JRutterbush wrote:

An Arcanist should use Intelligence for their spellcasting, and Charisma for their class features (the points they get to use their talents, and the effects of those talents). That covers both ends of the flavor: it combines the intellectual spellcasting of the Wizard (spell parameters, spellbook, preparation) with the inherent spellcasting of the Sorcerer (spontaneous spells, class features).

The Arcanist's flavor isn't that they're wise and intuitive, it's specifically that they combine their dedicated study of magic (Wizard/Intelligence) with their inherent connection to magic (Sorcerer/Charisma) in order to be better able to work with raw magical energy. That is very clearly a combination of Intelligence and Charisma, not Wisdom.

I'm largely against making classes more MAD, but maybe making the Arcanist reliant on both INT and CHA would actually be a good way to balance out the fact that this class has a core casting mechanic that combines the best elements of the most powerful classes in the game.


Ssalarn wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:

An Arcanist should use Intelligence for their spellcasting, and Charisma for their class features (the points they get to use their talents, and the effects of those talents). That covers both ends of the flavor: it combines the intellectual spellcasting of the Wizard (spell parameters, spellbook, preparation) with the inherent spellcasting of the Sorcerer (spontaneous spells, class features).

The Arcanist's flavor isn't that they're wise and intuitive, it's specifically that they combine their dedicated study of magic (Wizard/Intelligence) with their inherent connection to magic (Sorcerer/Charisma) in order to be better able to work with raw magical energy. That is very clearly a combination of Intelligence and Charisma, not Wisdom.

I'm largely against making classes more MAD, but maybe making the Arcanist reliant on both INT and CHA would actually be a good way to balance out the fact that this class has a core casting mechanic that combines the best elements of the most powerful classes in the game.

Not a bad idea at all, perhaps int for spell dc and cha for spell uses per day and class ability dc?


Thing is, Jason's already said that A. the spellcasting is not getting fixed and then B. spellcasting isn't appropriate discussion for This Thread.

And, well...I might approve of the concept of creating some MAD for this class but, honestly? It's two-stat MAD, they can afford it. They just take some of the 'just for lulz' points that Wizard would be spending and drop them in Cha instead. Problem solved, engage murder engine.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

The spellcasting mechanic is not something we are planning on changing.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Good. I was also thinking thematically that he should have a special spellbook or abilities tied to his spell book. Some or all of the following:

Unlimited spell book...just as it sounds.

Effortless writing...free to add spells to spell book.

Merge with arcane script...the ability to turn one's spell book into arcane energy and store inside yourself. Or something similar. Perhaps the ability to reconstruct it if destroyed. I could go further but you get the idea.

I sure you can think of better names and balance it with the casting mechanic.

I like these ideas mainly from a record keeping standpoint which is something I dislike about wizards. That and you might lose your spell book. ;)

I haven't yet read much of this thread beyond your quote above so apologies if someone else suggested this aleady.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Orthos wrote:
Shadar Aman wrote:
Unlike a lot of people, I think this is awesome. Wizards are my favorite class; I've tried other classes, and none of them are as enjoyable to play (for me) as Wizard. So if the Arcanist ends up being an alternate Wizard, then that doubles the classes I have to choose from!

As stated elsewhere, I'm coming at this from the opposite direction. I loathe Wizards and most other prepared casters, but the Arcanist does prepared spells combined with spontaneous casting in a way that makes me actually want to use it, and doesn't have to rely on something cool like Magus tricks or Witch hexes to get me to "tolerate" the prepared casting. So I actually can play the studious bookworm mage without having to just be a Sorcerer that lugs around a tome for the heck of it.

It may surprise you, but I totally agree with your feelings on prepared casters. I just like everything else about the Wizard enough to overcome my distaste for Vancian magic. So I share your hopes for a bookworm with spontaneity. That's a big part of why I don't mind the Arcanist sharing some conceptual space with the Wizard.

Or maybe I'll try the recharge magic variant from Unearthed Arcana. I've always wanted to see how that plays.


I have one question do you have to be a certain level in the wizard or sorcerer class to play the arcanist or can you play it straight forward as a character?


Prince of Knives wrote:

Thing is, Jason's already said that A. the spellcasting is not getting fixed and then B. spellcasting isn't appropriate discussion for This Thread.

And, well...I might approve of the concept of creating some MAD for this class but, honestly? It's two-stat MAD, they can afford it. They just take some of the 'just for lulz' points that Wizard would be spending and drop them in Cha instead. Problem solved, engage murder engine.

I'd put a ring on it.


It could be slightly MAD, and the arcane pool starting size could be cha bonus dependent. That seems to fit with other slightly mad classes. Primary stat for casting, secondary stat for fueling extra feature uses/dc etc.

Not a bad way to round out the class, thematically, while keeping the arcanist special abilities in check mechanically a little.


Kenneth Kemp 638 wrote:
I have one question do you have to be a certain level in the wizard or sorcerer class to play the arcanist or can you play it straight forward as a character?

Arcanist is a 1-20 base class; you can begin play as an Arcanist or multiclass into it, just like a normal base class.


I'm glad that you're looking at the class abilities. My first read through of the class was "this is perfect for building up to a spellcasting p-class". By that I mean "there are no class abilities that I would miss."

Ideas:

* Prepared caster, with 1 extra spell slot per level that can be used to spontaneously cast one of your other prepared spells. These extra slots are a class ability, and lost when you p-class.

* Prepared caster with a magus arcane pool, and spell recall. (as well as other less martial arcane pool things). You stop gaining more arcane pool when you p-class. Possibly flavor it like bloodmage.

* Prepared caster, but any spell slots you leave 'open' can either be used to prepare a spell later (as normal), or can be used to spontaneously cast amongst your already prepared spells.

* Spontaneous caster, but you can "burn" one of your spell slots in order to add a spell known of that level for the day. May require having a spellbook with that spell.

* Prepared caster, but you can use blood as ink when adding spells to your spellbook. The spell takes on characteristics for the appropriate bloodline based on the blood used.

Of course the above are tame enough to just be archetypes or a new type of wizard school. The intent is to dial down the 'spells' part so that this isn't p-class fodder anymore, and you can feel better about adding cool class abilities. As it stands, if you leave the spellcasting alone , you'd have to do some amazing things to tempt me away from just using it to get to bloodmage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Prince of Knives wrote:

Thing is, Jason's already said that A. the spellcasting is not getting fixed and then B. spellcasting isn't appropriate discussion for This Thread.

And, well...I might approve of the concept of creating some MAD for this class but, honestly? It's two-stat MAD, they can afford it. They just take some of the 'just for lulz' points that Wizard would be spending and drop them in Cha instead. Problem solved, engage murder engine.

As a Wizard, I already put those points in Cha. It's good for a night on the town. Give me a mechanical incentive to do that, and I might never play anything else.


Shadar Aman wrote:
Prince of Knives wrote:

Thing is, Jason's already said that A. the spellcasting is not getting fixed and then B. spellcasting isn't appropriate discussion for This Thread.

And, well...I might approve of the concept of creating some MAD for this class but, honestly? It's two-stat MAD, they can afford it. They just take some of the 'just for lulz' points that Wizard would be spending and drop them in Cha instead. Problem solved, engage murder engine.

As a Wizard, I already put those points in Cha. It's good for a night on the town. Give me a mechanical incentive to do that, and I might never play anything else.

I see we're thinking on the same wavelength.


so does the revised arcanist qualify for the wizard discoveries????


Steelfiredragon wrote:
so does the revised arcanist qualify for the wizard discoveries????

I doubt they will. The Discoveries are a reflection of a wizard's intense study and book learning.

Arcanist sounds like he is going to be more about taking existing spells and improving them a little for slightly twisted effects. He'll have his own collection of toys to play with

Sczarni

for now I'd say they do, they are literally both right now for the purposes of feats.

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