**Official Query** Arcanist Revision


Class Discussion

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...*inhales*PLEASE DEAR SWEET MERCIFUL HEAVENS CONSIDER WISDOM CASTING, IT FITS THE FLAVOR MORE THAN EVER!
...wait a minute

Jason Buhlman wrote:
The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is,
I wrote wrote:
I think this class should be about looking at the nature of arcane magic

O_O

Liberty's Edge

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Millefune wrote:
Two Prestige Points for a "Wand Battery" and nigh infinite pool in PFS/PSOP?

And now I have images of Green Lantern swarming in my head ;-)


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also arcanist's new flavor also lends itself to having it cast with wisdom instead of intelligence and charisma.

Wizards use complex formulas to cast spells that they write in their spellbooks and they memorize the formulas each day.

Sorcerers use natural force of will to control their limited set of spells they obtained from their heritage.

Arcanists see, understand, and DO which seems to point towards wisdom. The arcanist does not not have as much rote knowledge as the wizard; that is not how they do things. The arcanist does not use their personality and force of will like a sorcerer. They understand how it works and how to interact with the magic around them to achieve their goals.

Also it helps create more differentiation and gives people a wisdom based arcane caster which many people want.

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
I am glad that folks like the direction we are taking.
I wouldn't be glad just yet. Given the response you've gotten so far you may have an angry mob at your door soon demanding why the revised version hasn't appeared yet. =p

Not to mention the unavoidable angry crowd that will rear its head as soon as the revised version has appeared and does not meet the exact overblown anticipations people are building since JB's announcement


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
christos gurd wrote:

...*inhales*PLEASE DEAR SWEET MERCIFUL HEAVENS CONSIDER WISDOM CASTING, IT FITS THE FLAVOR MORE THAN EVER!

...wait a minute
Jason Buhlman wrote:
The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is,
I wrote wrote:
I think this class should be about looking at the nature of arcane magic
O_O

Oh wow I did not see your post before I posted.

I obviously agree.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

In
I am so In.

The idea of a class that breaks magic to their whim and pulls it apart as a core concept works so much better and does really make it feel like a profession in and of itself.

Now am I the only one who can see a character that learned the arts of the Arcanist through the horrible scrawling of the elder things and their understanding of the Universe a la At the Mountains of Madness?


Temeryn wrote:
christos gurd wrote:

...*inhales*PLEASE DEAR SWEET MERCIFUL HEAVENS CONSIDER WISDOM CASTING, IT FITS THE FLAVOR MORE THAN EVER!

...wait a minute
Jason Buhlman wrote:
The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is,
I wrote wrote:
I think this class should be about looking at the nature of arcane magic
O_O

Oh wow I did not see your post before I posted.

I obviously agree.

you sir (or ma'am, the names not clear) are clearly a very insightful, talented, attractive person (or object, again the names not clear). obviously so, since these the traits of those who agree with me ;)


If Arcanist becomes a Wisdom Hybrid.... Cleric/Arcanist - Mystic Theurge?


Tels wrote:
If Arcanist becomes a Wisdom Hybrid.... Cleric/Arcanist - Mystic Theurge?

and thus my master plans unfolds...*evil laugh*


Tels wrote:
If Arcanist becomes a Wisdom Hybrid.... Cleric/Arcanist - Mystic Theurge?

I see your Cleric/Arcanist and raise you an Arcanist/Shaman - Mystic Theurge.

Nature is looking sweet with Wis to AC.

Liberty's Edge

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Cap. Darling wrote:
Sorry not impressed. This is still a rules driven class and that is a sad direction for the game.

"My intellectual knowledge of magic combined with a natural affinity for magical energy means I am the master of shaping raw magic. I don't 'cast spells', I wield the very essence of magic itself as my power!"

Yeah, no, you're right... that's not flavorful at all.

Liberty's Edge

MonkeyWithALaser wrote:
That said, it is my hope that the new class has something interesting they can do at first level.

They will. The whole "tearing magic apart" thing is meant to refill their arcane pool of whatever-they-call-it, which means that they'll have abilities from that pool to use early on.


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Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
This is what the arcanist is, a master of all types of magic and magical energies, but specialized in none, other than the ebb and flow of magic itself, whether sorcerer or wizard style magic.

The quote is "jack of all trades but master of none" - not a master of all. It should be competent at all types using this concept, but it should not be capable of out-doing either sorcerer at spontaneous or wizard at preparation.


Remy Balster wrote:
Tels wrote:
If Arcanist becomes a Wisdom Hybrid.... Cleric/Arcanist - Mystic Theurge?

I see your Cleric/Arcanist and raise you an Arcanist/Shaman - Mystic Theurge.

Nature is looking sweet with Wis to AC.

Have not really looked at the Shaman yet. Mostly just the Arcanist, Brawler, Swashbuckler, and Investigator. I've given a cursory glance at Hunter, Slayer and Bloodrager. As for the Skald... a 'group rage bard' doesn't really interest me and the Oracle and Witch are the two classes I am the least familiar with.


christos gurd wrote:
Temeryn wrote:
christos gurd wrote:

...*inhales*PLEASE DEAR SWEET MERCIFUL HEAVENS CONSIDER WISDOM CASTING, IT FITS THE FLAVOR MORE THAN EVER!

...wait a minute
Jason Buhlman wrote:
The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is,
I wrote wrote:
I think this class should be about looking at the nature of arcane magic
O_O

Oh wow I did not see your post before I posted.

I obviously agree.

you sir (or ma'am, the names not clear) are clearly a very insightful, talented, attractive person (or object, again the names not clear). obviously so, since these the traits of those who agree with me ;)

It would be nice to get our hands on a Wis arcane caster, but I am guessing they are going to stick with Int


Tels wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:
Tels wrote:
If Arcanist becomes a Wisdom Hybrid.... Cleric/Arcanist - Mystic Theurge?

I see your Cleric/Arcanist and raise you an Arcanist/Shaman - Mystic Theurge.

Nature is looking sweet with Wis to AC.

Have not really looked at the Shaman yet. Mostly just the Arcanist, Brawler, Swashbuckler, and Investigator. I've given a cursory glance at Hunter, Slayer and Bloodrager. As for the Skald... a 'group rage bard' doesn't really interest me and the Oracle and Witch are the two classes I am the least familiar with.

Surprisingly, the Shaman is very Oracle, and less Witch. Has Cleric spell progression, ie 2nd lvl spell at 3rd level etc. And gets Spirits (Ie Oracle Mysteries version 2.) The Nature Spirit allows you to swap your dex mod for your Wis mod in your AC. I think at level 1 even. So you could even use an early entry method and splash just the one level of Shaman to get a nearly full progression Arcanist theurge with only 1 level of shaman. And have quite a range of options... plus, you could ratchet your wis to max and be rather tough for a caster in the AC department, far, far more SAD then most any theurge option.


JRutterbush wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Sorry not impressed. This is still a rules driven class and that is a sad direction for the game.

"My intellectual knowledge of magic combined with a natural affinity for magical energy means I am the master of shaping raw magic. I don't 'cast spells', I wield the very essence of magic itself as my power!"

Yeah, no, you're right... that's not flavorful at all.

It is only flavor full because your perspective on magic is from the game. Spells and spell levels and all that stuff is a way the rules make magic bound to the rules.

arcanist( some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
wizard(some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
How will you discribe the Arcanist witout talking about the rules?
Yes you can throw in new things like raw magic but that is nonsense, because until the day before this one that was what sorceres used.

I am sure this will be a great class in the end. But the current concept can go in and be, the wizard of every gaming world because it flavorwise IS wizard.


I like the direction of the theme change. Care should probably be taken to avoid simply being a gimick they need to carry level 1 wands around to recharge with all the time. That'd just be too good and annoying at the same time.

Definitely keep it Int based. Wis is nice and all... but understanding the very fundamentals of magic and tinkering with it...well, isn't for the wise. It if for the crazy eccentric genius who probably doesn't recognize the inherent danger he is toying with.


Cap. Darling wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Sorry not impressed. This is still a rules driven class and that is a sad direction for the game.

"My intellectual knowledge of magic combined with a natural affinity for magical energy means I am the master of shaping raw magic. I don't 'cast spells', I wield the very essence of magic itself as my power!"

Yeah, no, you're right... that's not flavorful at all.

It is only flavor full because your perspective on magic is from the game. Spells and spell levels and all that stuff is a way the rules make magic bound to the rules.

arcanist( some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
wizard(some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
How will you discribe the Arcanist witout talking about the rules?
Yes you can throw in new things like raw magic but that is nonsense, because until the day before this one that was what sorceres used.

I am sure this will be a great class in the end. But the current concept can go in and be, the wizard of every gaming world because it flavorwise IS wizard.

You are aware that these are Hybrid classes, right? And in this case, a hybrid of two classes that already fill pretty much the same role.

What, exactly, are you expecting?

Maybe you should reevaluate why you are expecting something other than an arcane caster hybrid of sorcerer and wizard.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This sounds a bit like a 3.5 Warlock who can power his eldritch blast via his own spells or via magical objects, and he can modify his blast via options.

I like that. :) Seriously, that's an awesome way to take it. As for 'using cheap items', the limit on that is you get based on the spell level of the item used, and it must be a permanent item, scroll or wand. Wands use up one charge everytime you rip magic out, and you get as much as the spell level. Same for scroll, and permanent items the same. I like it.

I'd like it better if they could use their ability at will all day long, but at reduced power. In other words, using magic from spells or items to boost it should be just that, a boost, not the only way to use this ability. Even nerf their spells a bit to bring them back in line powerwise if need be (IE: reduce from 9 to 6, or reduce spells per day even more).


Remy Balster wrote:
It if for the crazy eccentric genius who probably doesn't recognize the inherent danger he is toying with.

That's the archetypal Wizard.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This seems like an awesome change. Thanks for listening, Jason!

I hope you guys can do the same for the other two classes which suffer from an identity problem, i.e. the Hunter and especially the Warpriest.


Oh, the Pug and Green Lantern references are hopefully apt ones. I love the new direction. That said, I also feel the casting stat should be unique in some way. If you could somehow figure out how Int and Cha could work together, or allow an arcanist to pick which ability to use, that would be awesome, IMO.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Sorry not impressed. This is still a rules driven class and that is a sad direction for the game.

"My intellectual knowledge of magic combined with a natural affinity for magical energy means I am the master of shaping raw magic. I don't 'cast spells', I wield the very essence of magic itself as my power!"

Yeah, no, you're right... that's not flavorful at all.

It is only flavor full because your perspective on magic is from the game. Spells and spell levels and all that stuff is a way the rules make magic bound to the rules.

arcanist( some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
wizard(some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
How will you discribe the Arcanist witout talking about the rules?
Yes you can throw in new things like raw magic but that is nonsense, because until the day before this one that was what sorceres used.

I am sure this will be a great class in the end. But the current concept can go in and be, the wizard of every gaming world because it flavorwise IS wizard.

Easy:

Arcanist: One whom takes existing magic and deconstructs it so that they might use it for their own purposes

Concept wise they make me think of a spell-thief.

In fact.. I can see someone playing up a character like this as a sort of magic-hungry "leech", and maybe even wizards taking issues with them for their feeding upon magical energies (I can see a wizard claiming an arcanist has no right to the magic they take and deconstruct to harness, and a aracanist having a very very different perspective on it).


Remy Balster wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
JRutterbush wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
Sorry not impressed. This is still a rules driven class and that is a sad direction for the game.

"My intellectual knowledge of magic combined with a natural affinity for magical energy means I am the master of shaping raw magic. I don't 'cast spells', I wield the very essence of magic itself as my power!"

Yeah, no, you're right... that's not flavorful at all.

It is only flavor full because your perspective on magic is from the game. Spells and spell levels and all that stuff is a way the rules make magic bound to the rules.

arcanist( some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
wizard(some one that study magic to do fantastic stuff)
How will you discribe the Arcanist witout talking about the rules?
Yes you can throw in new things like raw magic but that is nonsense, because until the day before this one that was what sorceres used.

I am sure this will be a great class in the end. But the current concept can go in and be, the wizard of every gaming world because it flavorwise IS wizard.

You are aware that these are Hybrid classes, right? And in this case, a hybrid of two classes that already fill pretty much the same role.

What, exactly, are you expecting?

Maybe you should reevaluate why you are expecting something other than an arcane caster hybrid of sorcerer and wizard.

my expectation was that it would fill some sort of empty space flavor or conceptwise. All the other hybrids try to do that.

Arcanist dosent it simply make the parent classes smaller.


Cap. Darling wrote:

my expectation was that it would fill some sort of empty space flavor or conceptwise. All the other hybrids try to do that.
Arcanist dosent it simply make the parent classes smaller.

I think given the number or archetypes and prestige classes you could argue the same for any of the new classes, but it is really a moot point until we get some word on the changes to this class.


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Cap. Darling wrote:

my expectation was that it would fill some sort of empty space flavor or conceptwise. All the other hybrids try to do that.

Arcanist dosent it simply make the parent classes smaller.

The parent classes have not changed. No one has snuck into my room and sharpied on my books or anything, as far as I can tell. Has someone hand edited any of your books? I'm not sure you can blame that on the arcanist...

You expect it to fill an empty space flavor or concept-wise. And you say that all the other hybrid classes do this? Interesting.

Well, I'm not sure that is actually true. How does a Brawler (class) fill a flavor or concept that the Brawler (archetype) doesn't fill? They even share the same name!

The truth is, not a whole lot is 'new' about any of these classes. These aren't 'new' classes. These are new 'hybrid' classes of 'old' classes.

The first look at Arcanist was rather bland, and the dev team has already responded to that nearly unanimous opinion. How? By scrapping the bloodfocus concept, and giving us this new vision of an arcane caster who can pull magic apart by the seams to reapply those mystical energies in ways he sees fit.

So, if you're looking for flavor, it is there. If it isn't the flavor you want? Well... that is very different from 'there is no flavor'.

Dark Archive

We did (looong time ago ie ADD 2) a class that looks like the Arcanist: the "Snowmaker" had a focus item (a snowflake) that contains the spells they could cast as the sorcerer does. They were also allowed to melt their snowflake and create a new one with different spells by taking a ritual at the Snow Academy. They where also able to cast more spells than defined by their level by melting the snowflake and losing access to the cast spell until they ran the above said ritual.

It sounds that our snowmaker could comme back by this way.


I love the change of direction, now if feels more unique. There it will fit next to the other arcane full spell casters, not above them. The sorcerers will have their spontaneous spell casting and their awesome skills of their bloodline, the wizards and their school training that allows for fantastic utilization of specialization, and now the arcanist with its new direction as a arcane tinkering. I am literally excited for this, I do hope it uses the arcane pool like a magus to do amazing things. I am imagining diminished spellcasting, but that's not the point here, its the class features. Main point the abilities the pool will allow for them, its not going to be combat, that much is obvious, but what will it be? Truly I hope maybe doing something like an eldritch blast! Or maybe an arcane shock-wave that could dispel buffs! That is off the top of my head, but hey, now I am truly feeling this class. It will stand next to its mother and father class, proud and eager.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Couldn't find a better place to ask...

Once the playtest ends are you only stopping the acceptance of feedback and we allowed to continue advancing what we have or will playing hybrids in Society play be banned until the book comes out?


Please keep this one as a intelligence based caster.

I like the ideas they said for that magic reserve.


After initial skepticsm I really started to like the arcanist. The intuitive spellcasting gives new players a better opportunity to play a full caster than sorcerer and wizard do. Blood Focus on the other hand was rather lackluster. I only made a fourth level arcanist (arcane bloodline/evocation school). The boost to spell level and DC seemed ok mechanically but a familiar for four rounds per day is just odd. I think it could have worked but there was still some fine-tuning missing. Thematically I didn't have any problems with the class. Most wizards in modern literature are born with some kind of gift for magic and not just a keen intellect.


Sounds cool! The bloodline thing was very strange. Sounds like you might have the new "arcane class" that everyone will want to play!


Sounds promising, as long as it's not a retread of metamagics. I think if you took some thing thematically from the 3.5 Archmage, Spellthief, Ur-Priest, and various specialty casters, that would be a good place to start. I like the idea of talents that are similar to wizard school powers but more aligned to magical power in general than specific kinds of effects. I like the idea of taking the magus power pool concept and gearing it toward casting rather than fighting.

Grand Lodge

This sounds great, cannot wait to get a look at the reworked class.

I'm hoping the deisgn team takes a look at the Noctumancer Prestige Class from the 3.5 Tome of Magic. Some of it's 'Innate Counterspell' type skills seem to fit in this theme, and the amazing visual/thematic aspects of catching an enemy spell, and using it to fuel a spell you then throw back in their face was a fundamental piece of that PrC (And one I'd love to see more accessible, and to play again).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Man, I didn't even get a chance to playtest it then this! Still, what they seem to be building now looks far more cool and has unique flavour so I'm content. :)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Interesting concept. It's nice that something more unique seems to be on the horizon for the class. I look forward to seeing it. But something I noticed with the class that doesn't seem to have been brought up before: Why doesn't the arcanist have Use Magic Device as a class skill? With the change in concept, this seems even more relevant, like something that should really come natural to a member of this class.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I take your magic and turn it against you? Did anyone else think of the Mord-Sith from the Sword of Truth series when they read this?


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:

The spellcasting mechanic is not something we are planning on changing.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

THANK GOD.

Loving the flavor. Arcanist is still in my top 3 (with Investigator and Bloodrager). Keep up the good work!

Shadow Lodge

Wizard: Someone who spent years of study to tap into Arcane Powers
Sorcerer: Magic is in your blood and allows you to bend reality with it.
Arcanist: You felt the pull of magic in your blood, but it wasn't enough alone to power spells...but with some training you were able to use the power of your blood to tap into those powers.


Epic Meepo wrote:
On a completely unrelated note, how does one pronounce "artificer"?

ahr-tif-uh-ser


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm failing to see how taking magic apart at its roots and manipulating it is any different, conceptually, from what a wizard already does.


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Ravingdork wrote:
I take your magic and turn it again you? Did anyone else think of the Mord-Sith from the Sword of Truth series?

I didn't before but now I am.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:


There has been a lot of discussion about the Arcanist and most of the feedback resolves around how much the class sits between the Sorcerer and the Wizard without offering a unique view on arcane casting. The design team agrees and we are going back to the drawing board on some aspects of this class.

Personally I thought that the class had plenty of great flavor in the form of a sorcerer who was trained as a wizard, or a wizard with existing sorcerous talent.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
To that end, some of the parts of this class are back in design and we are hoping to share the revisions with you very soon. Before we get to that, I wanted to share with you the new direction we are exploring to get some feedback and hear your thoughts before we get too far down the trail on the revisions.

My affection for the existing flavor not withstanding, I'm open to this.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
We are dropping the weak bloodline concept and taking this class in a different direction to give it its own conceptual space. Here is what we have in mind:

Excellent decision. The existing weak-tea bloodline was my least favorite part of the class.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Arcanist

Some spellcasters weave magic into a beautiful tapestry. Others draw upon their innate gift to produce magic. The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is, the arcanist is able to pull apart magic, ripping the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey her will. It is not an easy task, but it allows her to use magic like no other. She can consume her spells, and eventually those of magic items and other spellcasters, to fuel her powers. She can use the raw essence of magic to create powerful effects, both wondrous and deadly.

Mhmm. I'm really on the fence with this. I'm not a huge fan of the direction, because I think it actually pigeon holes the class into an even narrower focus than it already had. Tearing down effects only goes so far.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
We are pretty excited about this as a concept. The arcanist goes from someone who is half wizard, half sorcerer to an arcane spellcaster that focuses on tinkering with the fundamental forces of magic, tearing apart the bonds and forging new ones with its power. This understanding also allows her to cast in a new way (represented by the existing spellcasting mechanics).

I'm not certain how this really fits with the mechanic that they use for casting.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Of course, that is not all we are doing to this class. To match up with its new flavor, we are reworking a number of its class features. Blood Focus is being pulled, along with its bonus feats for an entirely new class feature....

Losing blood focus is good. I'd expect significant gains in flexibility from new abilities in exchange for all their bonus feats, since arcanists with their existing casting mechanics struggle significantly in terms of flexibility alleviated mostly by metamagic.


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The wizard is a software engineer. The arcanist is a hacker.


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Orthos wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I take your magic and turn it again you? Did anyone else think of the Mord-Sith from the Sword of Truth series?
I didn't before but now I am.

That makes two classes that remind me of characters from Sword of Truth.

Remember Chase, the Warden in Wizard's First Rule, the first book in the series? When I think of the Slayer class, I keep imagining Chase, just carrying around an arsenal and using various tactics to fight, rather than being a straight up fighter or a ranger with Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider).

I have a feeling people are going to start comparing Sword of Truth characters to these new classes…


Man I wish Chase had been more prominent in the later books. (And that the later books hadn't gone all politicsy.) He was awesome.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This is exactly the kind of flavor I had been talking about in the other thread. Thanks for this new direction, it sounds awesome!

Liberty's Edge

and NOW i'm really excited! Wonderful, Jason!

And is nice to see the dev team is open to such a big change =)


I had originally wanted to say the initial concept of the arcanist seemed almost like an adept-ish step in melding wizard and sorcerer, seemingly more NP C-suited.

The new concept has great potential, though I'm at a loso of how to conceptualize it. Maybe something more involving the metagaming concept of debuffing applied in the form of drawing from the intrinsic magic of others to fuel their spells, weakening their foes even as their own magical gear makes them vulnerable to the arcanist's workings?

Not quite a magic eater, but certainly one who could function in that manner if so focused.

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