**Official Query** Arcanist Revision


Class Discussion

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zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

Given all the clamoring, I'm sure there's room for a Wisdom based Archetype, as the Scarred Witch Doctor created a Con-based Witch. Calm down folks. :)


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

Given all the clamoring, I'm sure there's room for a Wisdom based Archetype, as the Scarred Witch Doctor created a Con-based Witch. Calm down folks. :)

Agreed Oceanshieldwolf, what I was trying to do however is get a detailed answer so that we and the pathfinder development team can get an understanding. It is also useful by prying open the fortress of "arcane/no wisdom" that has been quite loud in a few posts and understand the origin's of this idea.


I don't actually have any specific bias against a wisdom based arcane caster....

I just like the idea of the arcanist being about "know how".

Having said that...some of the comments made for the new direction brought to mind some of the abilities of the Ur Priest (3.5 PrC).
Things like Spell resistance, and the ability to combine lower level spell slots into higher level spell slots....

So...as I can see this being driven by any...or a combination of all, of the mental abilities..knowledge, willpower...etc
I'm open to the idea of it being based on wisdom...provided the skill points are bumped up higher to account for learning.

Shadow Lodge

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Excaliburproxy wrote:
That is not a threat. That is a promise.

An empty promise if I ever heard one.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

Lets not get into demands. Thats not how this works. We like to keep some aspects of our stat uses "silo'd" to maintain a certain level of consistency. This is why there is no Wis based arcane caster and why there is no Int based divine caster. At the moment, this is not something we are looking at changing. Charisma is the ground where the two casting camps meet, which is fine as that stat can take a bit of the load without becoming too unbalanced.

As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Thanks Jason. I want to get a look at it before I lock my Ifrit into arcanist rather than sorcerer.


zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

On giving your question some thought...I think it boils down to established perceptions.

Why is an Undead's abilities based on Charisma instead of Wisdom ???
It's through sheer force of will that they defy death and remain animate.

Why is leadership based on Charisma and not Wisdom....I would much rather follow a wise (but ugly) leader than a vain but pretty air head ;)

The division between Wisdom and Charisma has always seemed a bit vague and unnecessary to me (shrugs)


Another pond to fish in for ideas, that just sprang to my mind, is the Void elemental school.

Arcanist can be the masters of the element that binds all of the other arcane elements together.

Increased ability to identify spell effects as they can watch them coming together (bonus to spellcraft to identify spells).
Bonus to saves vs arcane spell effects.

Damn....her my mind goes....:P


Jason Bulmahn wrote:


As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

As this week, at least in regards to "work" is only two more days....does that mean within the next two days ?

PLEASE SAY YES !


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:


Lets not get into demands. Thats not how this works. We like to keep some aspects of our stat uses "silo'd" to maintain a certain level of consistency. This is why there is no Wis based arcane caster and why there is no Int based divine caster. At the moment, this is not something we are looking at changing. Charisma is the ground where the two casting camps meet, which is fine as that stat can take a bit of the load without becoming too unbalanced.

As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I hadn't heard "silo" used in this context before so I hit the quick google search button. What I got was not what I was expecting.

1. silo
A word to describe well-endowed, horse-like men.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

You know what? I'm going to try and answer this. The obvious answer is in games mechanics terms: it makes more sense to keep one ability for arcane, one for divine, and one for both. This keeps Mystic Theurge builds (as well as most arcane divine builds outside of oracle/sorcerer) in check. So the argument here must be from a fluff stand point.

Arcane magic is a power source that flows throughout the multi-verse in an uncontrolled manner. Those seeking to use this power have to master complex techniques that require a great deal of knowledge and practice to accomplish or a massively powerful ego to wrest control of the supernatural and bend it to your will. Thus Intelligence and Charisma are the stats used to access this power.

Divine magic comes directly from the gods or from a deep understanding of philosophical power. No complex rituals and no actual knowledge is required; just faith and understanding of the principles one believes in. The deity and it's servants deal with the practical details. Charismatic oracles can draw upon this power without comprehension, becoming the tools of the divine without needing that great understanding. Their strong sense of self and their faith in the calling draw the power necessary for divine magic. Thus Wisdom and Charisma are the stats used to access the divine.

So long as magic is divided between arcane and divine,this system works fairly well, IMHO. :)


I agree with the above for the most part. Except that I would stipulate that an Oracle need not have faith, their ability to express themselves taps the conduit granted by the divine entity, no philosophical association is technically required, though deities obviously have a proclivity for granting powers to those with similar views.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
TheMystic wrote:

I agree with the above for the most part. Except that I would stipulate that an Oracle need not have faith, their ability to express themselves taps the conduit granted by the divine entity, no philosophical association is technically required, though deities obviously have a proclivity for granting powers to those with similar views.

Yeah and since oracles are hindered with a curse, they may even be unwilling tools of divine forces. They are chosen, they do not get to choose.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Feros wrote:
TheMystic wrote:

I agree with the above for the most part. Except that I would stipulate that an Oracle need not have faith, their ability to express themselves taps the conduit granted by the divine entity, no philosophical association is technically required, though deities obviously have a proclivity for granting powers to those with similar views.

Yeah and since oracles are hindered with a curse, they may even be unwilling tools of divine forces. They are chosen, they do not get to choose.

The amusing observation being that the Player playing the Oracle chooses the curse, resulting in the Player being the Curser and the Cursed :3


Feros wrote:
zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

You know what? I'm going to try and answer this. The obvious answer is in games mechanics terms: it makes more sense to keep one ability for arcane, one for divine, and one for both. This keeps Mystic Theurge builds (as well as most arcane divine builds outside of oracle/sorcerer) in check. So the argument here must be from a fluff stand point.

Arcane magic is a power source that flows throughout the multi-verse in an uncontrolled manner. Those seeking to use this power have to master complex techniques that require a great deal of knowledge and practice to accomplish or a massively powerful ego to wrest control of the supernatural and bend it to your will. Thus Intelligence and Charisma are the stats used to access this power.

Divine magic comes directly from the gods or from a deep understanding of philosophical power. No complex rituals and no actual knowledge is required; just faith and understanding of the principles one believes in. The deity and it's servants deal with the practical details. Charismatic oracles can draw upon this power without comprehension, becoming the tools of the divine without needing that great understanding. Their strong sense of self and their faith in the calling draw the power necessary for divine magic. Thus Wisdom and Charisma are the stats used to access the divine.

So long as magic is divided between arcane and divine,this system works fairly well, IMHO. :)

That always rubbed me the wrong way. It always felt like they should have arcane int, yeah. but divines should work off of charisma and they both share wisdom.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:
zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

Lets not get into demands. Thats not how this works. We like to keep some aspects of our stat uses "silo'd" to maintain a certain level of consistency. This is why there is no Wis based arcane caster and why there is no Int based divine caster. At the moment, this is not something we are looking at changing. Charisma is the ground where the two casting camps meet, which is fine as that stat can take a bit of the load without becoming too unbalanced.

As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

bump

Grand Lodge

Due to a combination of things, especially some of the comments/suggestions in this thread about the potential new mechanic, I have an image of something that is a mix of Spellfire, Fairy Tail's Slayer mages, and FMA's alchemy. It will be interesting to see how close the amalgamation in my head matches up with what they release.


Feros wrote:
zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

You know what? I'm going to try and answer this. The obvious answer is in games mechanics terms: it makes more sense to keep one ability for arcane, one for divine, and one for both. This keeps Mystic Theurge builds (as well as most arcane divine builds outside of oracle/sorcerer) in check. So the argument here must be from a fluff stand point.

Arcane magic is a power source that flows throughout the multi-verse in an uncontrolled manner. Those seeking to use this power have to master complex techniques that require a great deal of knowledge and practice to accomplish or a massively powerful ego to wrest control of the supernatural and bend it to your will. Thus Intelligence and Charisma are the stats used to access this power.

Divine magic comes directly from the gods or from a deep understanding of philosophical power. No complex rituals and no actual knowledge is required; just faith and understanding of the principles one believes in. The deity and it's servants deal with the practical details. Charismatic oracles can draw upon this power without comprehension, becoming the tools of the divine without needing that great understanding. Their strong sense of self and their faith in the calling draw the power necessary for divine magic. Thus Wisdom and Charisma are the stats used to access the divine.

So long as magic is divided between arcane and divine,this system works fairly well, IMHO. :)

bad example, since MT builds are already kept in check by the fact that--racial SLA early entry workarounds aside--they're way behind the spellcaster curve regardless of build anyway (until 14-16+ when they actually start to live up to their reputation, which unfortunately is after PFS ends). having stat synergy doesnt help much beyond making an already masochistic PrC somewhat more bearable to play. in the case of the wis-casting arcanist/cleric, it would work just like an empyreal sorcerer/cleric, with possibly even fewer spells, since it's without the racial and bloodline bonuses for for now.

Scarab Sages

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Hi Jason, how is the new Arcanist going to be released? As a separate PDF (a la the Winter Witch revision) or as a total update of the playtest document? Will it be announced as its own blog post? Thank you, I'm looking forward to it and hopefully get to play test this weekend!


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thank you Jason for the staffs opinion on my question and thank you Feros for giving a great answer for my question. :)

I feel now this whole debate has been resolved.

......for now. *evil laugh*


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Anyway -- have we gotten any word as to when we will see the revised Arcanist? With such a short playtest period, the developers would need to get it out quickly if we are to playtest it at all. Or should we assume that what we got in the playtest package is radically different from the final product and that we won't see the revision until the book comes out in August of next year?


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Jason Bulmahn wrote:
zergtitan wrote:

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

Lets not get into demands. Thats not how this works. We like to keep some aspects of our stat uses "silo'd" to maintain a certain level of consistency. This is why there is no Wis based arcane caster and why there is no Int based divine caster. At the moment, this is not something we are looking at changing. Charisma is the ground where the two casting camps meet, which is fine as that stat can take a bit of the load without becoming too unbalanced.

As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Charisma-based prepared spells paladin and Wisdom-based spontaneous inquisitor say hi to your attempt to categorize casting stats, Jason. ;)

Liberty's Edge

David knott 242 wrote:

Anyway -- have we gotten any word as to when we will see the revised Arcanist? With such a short playtest period, the developers would need to get it out quickly if we are to playtest it at all. Or should we assume that what we got in the playtest package is radically different from the final product and that we won't see the revision until the book comes out in August of next year?

JB hopes for this week ;-)

Silver Crusade

This new concept sounds exactly like the Calling on Dragons books, i can't remember the authors name. It is something i would be interested in seeing though.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:


As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Jason, you are fantastic, and we all really appreciate you and your team's hard work!


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It seems wisdom for casting is out, but the reason I thought it was such a good idea besides the "Oh its nice to have a choice of wisdom to casting" is that it widens the gulf between arcanist and other spellcasters and helps give arcanist a greater niche.

Using wisdom for casting would allow arcanist to also be able to fill the sort of hermit mystic who is a wiseman that people visit. Wizard can do that somewhat, but getting a spellbook filled with spells when not in "civilized" society is sort of hard. And the mystic I am talking about is less book smart and more wise in any case. Many times in fantasy books and other mediums, I feel this archetype is dominant as opposed to the book smart wizard.


Jason, I demand you tell me what your favorite color is!!!


First rule of cool:
1) Trust the Paizo design team. You're playing their game for a reason.

Shadow Lodge

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Kryzbyn wrote:
You're playing their game for a reason.

"Can't find a group for anything else"?

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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TOZ wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
You're playing their game for a reason.
"Can't find a group for anything else"?

Eh... I'll take what I can get. :)

Jason


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Lets not get into demands. Thats not how this works. We like to keep some aspects of our stat uses "silo'd" to maintain a certain level of consistency. This is why there is no Wis based arcane caster and why there is no Int based divine caster. At the moment, this is not something we are looking at changing. Charisma is the ground where the two casting camps meet, which is fine as that stat can take a bit of the load without becoming too unbalanced.

As an aside, I am hoping to get the revision out this week.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I think everyone needs to just be patient. We will get the update when they are done. Remeber pepole, Jason and the Paizo gang are just as excited to create/tweak/adjust/release their material as any of us would be. They will do it in a timely manner, and they want to do it right. They are, after all, first and formost, gamers like us. If you had the oppoertunity to do what they do, wouldn't you want it done right and make sure the fans get the best material they can? You tell me where else devleopers and company execs can interact, gain insight, and ideas from the fans and buyers of the product. Let alone choose to do so willingly and with gusto.

Patience...

PS: Can't wait ot see the revisions.


[threadjack] If Charisma is where *currently* the two camps meet, and there is already the arcane Scarred Witchdoctor that uses Constitution, I've just realised a Divinely imbued "Vessel/Avatar/Godscion" is the perfect design space to make a Constitution-based divine Caster - mapping the demands of the divine energy to the caster's endurance and vitality. Aaaand, on that note, a Summoner that uses Con is also a nifty idea. Runs off to Homebrew sub-forums...[/threadjack]

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

who was that masked wolf...

Dark Archive

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
[threadjack] If Charisma is where *currently* the two camps meet, and there is already the arcane Scarred Witchdoctor that uses Constitution, I've just realised a Divinely imbued "Vessel/Avatar/Godscion" is the perfect design space to make a Constitution-based divine Caster - mapping the demands of the divine energy to the caster's endurance and vitality. Aaaand, on that note, a Summoner that uses Con is also a nifty idea. Runs off to Homebrew sub-forums...[/threadjack]

The Con-based caster would likely tap into their own life-energies, and learn to tap into / manipulate them, to buff them, debuff them, heal them, harm them, etc. With advanced training, they'd learn to link up to others and mess with their life-energies...

A Strength based 'force mage' that is all about building up and storing kinetic energy within himself to use later to generate forceful ranged strikes (or telekinetic effects), or deflect incoming attacks, could also be fun. One part graceful martial artist, doing his morning kata and flowing dance-like exercises to charge up his battery of kinetic energy, striking walls or boards over and over, and, instead of breaking them, just storing the impact energy, his fist seeming to stop soundlessly when it strikes his practice tools, one part mage, just a leetle dash of jedi.

A Dexterity based mage could be all about time manipulation, as Dexterity is the score that best reflects an individuals interface with the dimension of time.

The Exchange

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You had me at Arcane Reserve James. I like the new direction with the class. Someone who monkies with the raw foundation of magic and allows them to spend a point pool to pull of feat/unique effects. I'm all down for it.

It WOULD be nice to say at higher levels steal spells from other non-standard lists too. *koff Bard/Druid/Cleric*

But I'm just saying.

Also, consider giving this class a zinger.

Quicker Countermagic!

Grand Lodge

TheLoneCleric wrote:

You had me at Arcane Reserve James. I like the new direction with the class. Someone who monkies with the raw foundation of magic and allows them to spend a point pool to pull of feat/unique effects. I'm all down for it.

It WOULD be nice to say at higher levels steal spells from other non-standard lists too. *koff Bard/Druid/Cleric*

But I'm just saying.

Also, consider giving this class a zinger.

Quicker Countermagic!

I'd give my kingdom for faster more useful counter magic.

I'll just be over here with my fingers crossed that they pull anything from the 3.5 Noctumancer's Innate Counterspell.


Set wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
[threadjack] If Charisma is where *currently* the two camps meet, and there is already the arcane Scarred Witchdoctor that uses Constitution, I've just realised a Divinely imbued "Vessel/Avatar/Godscion" is the perfect design space to make a Constitution-based divine Caster - mapping the demands of the divine energy to the caster's endurance and vitality. Aaaand, on that note, a Summoner that uses Con is also a nifty idea. Runs off to Homebrew sub-forums...[/threadjack]

The Con-based caster would likely tap into their own life-energies, and learn to tap into / manipulate them, to buff them, debuff them, heal them, harm them, etc. With advanced training, they'd learn to link up to others and mess with their life-energies...

A Strength based 'force mage' that is all about building up and storing kinetic energy within himself to use later to generate forceful ranged strikes (or telekinetic effects), or deflect incoming attacks, could also be fun. One part graceful martial artist, doing his morning kata and flowing dance-like exercises to charge up his battery of kinetic energy, striking walls or boards over and over, and, instead of breaking them, just storing the impact energy, his fist seeming to stop soundlessly when it strikes his practice tools, one part mage, just a leetle dash of jedi.

A Dexterity based mage could be all about time manipulation, as Dexterity is the score that best reflects an individuals interface with the dimension of time.

so a Muscle Wizard?


AndIMustMask wrote:
Set wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
[threadjack] If Charisma is where *currently* the two camps meet, and there is already the arcane Scarred Witchdoctor that uses Constitution, I've just realised a Divinely imbued "Vessel/Avatar/Godscion" is the perfect design space to make a Constitution-based divine Caster - mapping the demands of the divine energy to the caster's endurance and vitality. Aaaand, on that note, a Summoner that uses Con is also a nifty idea. Runs off to Homebrew sub-forums...[/threadjack]

The Con-based caster would likely tap into their own life-energies, and learn to tap into / manipulate them, to buff them, debuff them, heal them, harm them, etc. With advanced training, they'd learn to link up to others and mess with their life-energies...

A Strength based 'force mage' that is all about building up and storing kinetic energy within himself to use later to generate forceful ranged strikes (or telekinetic effects), or deflect incoming attacks, could also be fun. One part graceful martial artist, doing his morning kata and flowing dance-like exercises to charge up his battery of kinetic energy, striking walls or boards over and over, and, instead of breaking them, just storing the impact energy, his fist seeming to stop soundlessly when it strikes his practice tools, one part mage, just a leetle dash of jedi.

A Dexterity based mage could be all about time manipulation, as Dexterity is the score that best reflects an individuals interface with the dimension of time.

so a Muscle Wizard?

I CAST FIST!!!

The Exchange

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Oh hell. What if you could counter someone else spell and 'eat' it for more pool points!!?

Shadow Lodge

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TheLoneCleric wrote:
Oh hell. What if you could counter someone else spell and 'eat' it for more pool points!!?

I drink your milkshake.


I was thinking last night that a neat ability- a feat or archetype feature or something- might be to allow the Arcanist to usurp control of another spellcaster's magical effects.

I tried to do something like that with an RPG superstar entry from a couple years back, but don't quite have the mechanics down.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post. Edition warring is not OK on paizo.com.


I like the idea of another WIS arcane caster. Makes my arcane monk (zen archer) easier to build. I use just Qinggong to get some extra spell ability for now.


Cthulhudrew wrote:

I was thinking last night that a neat ability- a feat or archetype feature or something- might be to allow the Arcanist to usurp control of another spellcaster's magical effects.

I tried to do something like that with an RPG superstar entry from a couple years back, but don't quite have the mechanics down.

Something along this line I was thinking about....the ability to make a counter spell attempt, and instead add/change meta magic feats applied to the spell.

Make the enemy wizards spell do something he wasn't counting on...
Like fireball going off at 0 range.
Sounds like great fun :P


Damn....I was hoping we would get the update before the work week was up:(

Ah well....next week.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Dont despair Nighttree...

Jason

Shadow Lodge

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Jason burns the midnight goblins.


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TOZ wrote:
Jason burns the midnight goblins.

Dervish Dance.

Now the pre-dawn ones too.


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And so begins the F5 smashing...

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