Nicos's page

RPG Superstar 6 Season Star Voter, 8 Season Star Voter. Organized Play Member. 10,822 posts (18,523 including aliases). 18 reviews. No lists. 2 wishlists. 37 aliases.


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Eh, In terms of PF1 New Valeros seems like a solid str 14 to me, aka, a decent built for a warrior.


Can somebody illuminate for me the reasons for the change from twf to sword & shield style?


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I think new Seoni is a straight improvement compared to the old version.


Block innitiative is better.


Overall, I think this version of the sorceress is an improvement over the original, though her face looks a bit too young.


I still think that individual innitiative in pbp is a bad thing.


ok


I probably would go human again.


6th level for him then. Or maybe he has a higher dex than usual for fighters in that setting.

Yeah, I know that there is not a 1-to-1 correspondence between fantasy characters from fiction and characters from the game. But it seems to me that there are better explanations than to say they all have the physical str of a powerlifter without actually having it.


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Consider that They are the best in the world because they are 5th level fighters not because the difference between 16 and 18 str. A 5th level fighter is elite by comparison to 1st and 2nd level dudes, str 18 or not.


Based on Amiri's look she should be build as a medium str character with a focus on other abilities that compensates for the lack of top-notch strength. In PF1 that would have been invulnerable rager (to survive the lack of armor protection), and a bunch of the supernatural rage powers. No clue what's the equivalent in PF2.


Roswynn wrote:
Ned Stark was another fighter who didn't look super strong, but if stattd out would just need a top Str, just to be decently optimized

Eh, I can't speak from the 2e point of view,but do he? Is the difference from 16 to 18 that much in terms of to hit and damage? It wasn't the case in PF1. Moreover, (at least from a PF1 perspective) If they are fighters and they don't want to be some babbling morons, then they would not have the point buy for 18 str in a low fantasy game.

Moreover, the Iconics are not meant to be optimized (correct me if that policy is intended to be changed in 2e).

So, 14 or 16 str would be just fine for a good game of thrones fighter.


Raylyeh wrote:
Overall this is probably my favorite so far.

Mine too.


Her torso looks very narrow, almost as if the armor were a corset. Though it might be the shadows that create that effect.


Her torso looks very narrow, almost as if the armor were a corset.


Do we have a list of all the single-sex-only monster of PF1?


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ChibiNyan wrote:
so got no interest in carrying that "label".

Well, Labels can be dangerous even if the people who spoke them thinks they are fine.


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Not sure about fiction (novels and the like), but I've never felt any intended connection between d&d Orc and black people (or black people stereotypes). Orcs as quite evil beings as a whole is perfectly fine for me.


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There are images I don't like overall that still have some redeeming qualities to my eyes. Except for Sajan, whose new image seems to be a pure downgrade compared to the PF1 one.


Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is intentional. She is not human and the PF2 art is intended to emphasize that with her proportions. I think it's a solid choice and like the new look.
The new look does make some of her aesthetic choices make less sense.
Uh...what aesthetic choices are you referring to? I'm sincerely confused.
Specificly the part of her outfit that has the breast window when she seems to be now as flat as a washboard.

In golarion showing more skin is for safety, everyone knows your enemies are less prone to attack you where you have exposed skin, just look at Amiri.


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Not a huge fan of the old art, but I find it superior to the new one in most of the cases.

Also, Several of them have weird looking bow-legs taht I quite dislike.


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It is true that the most important thing is rule of cool** (though consistency is also important), It's just that It would have been way cooler for me (and others, apparently) if the inspiration for Amiri's anatomy were actual strong women.

**And not some dark reasons that some posters wanted to ascribe to people that don't like the picture.


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Roswynn wrote:
I do think without gym machines you're not gonna look like a body builder, but I'm no expert, so feel free to correct me.

Steroids make it possible that people can grind rep after rep of isolation exercises and grow. But (steroids or not) you only need free weight (Like barbell and dumbells) to develop strength and size.

I'm not talking about Mr Olympia here. I would have been happier with the torso of megsquat or the like (aka, not the biggest or strongest girl around)

Roswynn wrote:
So don't expect mad abs on Amiri is what I'm saying

Sure. While shredded abs are cool, they are not a sign of strength. Strongest people around tend to have some (or a lot) fat, because bodyweight matters.

Roswynn wrote:
I find her midriff looks already muscular as is. It's the midriff of a strong person, in other words. That's my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, to reiterate, but that's the impression she gives me.

If we are talking about the raw str of carrying, pushing and pulling things around, then it is not. Not trying to be conflictive or anything, I know it is your opinion (and in the end the only thing that matters is if people like the picture), but it is not an informed opinion.

Roswynn wrote:
As for the trapezius or the other back muscles, we just can't see them. She's facing us and wearing quite a bit of armor. We can see only the bulk of her limbs (admittedly not huge) and, again, her midriff - most everything else is covered.

We can see her torso thanks to the silly armor design, and from it can be seen that she doesn't have the width and thickness of a strong person.


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The exact str can't be pin down (because it is a draw, it's a fantasy world, and stats are an abstraction), but that, compared to real world strong people, her look indicates a much lower str than the stated str is a 100% fact.


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Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Fumbles_suck wrote:
I am stating it is a fact that Amiri in the art does not have the physique to justify her strength score.
And your “fact” is flat out false.
No it is not, it is quite accurate unless supernatural means get involved.
You’re stating you can accurately pin down fictional and real people’s metagame concepts of attributes and whether it’s true or not. That is just your opinion, to claim it is a fact is 100% false.

100% accuracy is not the claim. It is more a rough, but a good enough estimate of her physical capabilities based on the image.


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Rysky wrote:
Fumbles_suck wrote:
I am stating it is a fact that Amiri in the art does not have the physique to justify her strength score.
And your “fact” is flat out false.

No it is not, it is quite accurate unless supernatural means get involved in the argument.


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Roswynn wrote:


As for Camille Leblanc-Bazinet and Megsquats, yes, those are very good example of someone who might have a Str of 18 IRL, true. Camille is also a CrossFit athlete and she probably uses a lot of specialized gym machinery to train, as does Meg. In the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and on Golarion in general, there are no actual gyms (well, there are dojo...), much less machines to help you develop your muscles - Amiri's workout probably consists in running, climbing, fighting, swimming... she could certainly have a more powerful body (even though with the armor covering most of it it'd be hard to say how muscular she actually is - she could have a lot of lean muscles for all we know, and I think her midriff shows exactly that kind of "thin but strong" concept), but she never had the chance to bulk up regularly in a controlled environment with the help of leg presses and pulldowns.

Leg presses and pull downs? There is no need of gym machinery to have muscle. In fact most comercial gyms provide just an illusion for people who wants thing easy.

Have you seen crossfit?, I'm not a fan of it but it does have a lot of running, climbing and sometimes, swimming. Have you seen the upperback of a climber. They are well developed. Amiri doesn't have the latissimus dorsi to climb carrying the wights she supposedly carries.

The Trapezius doesn't lie. Carrying heavy things in your hads will give you beig trapezius. Amiri don't have it.

She have the torso of a person that is not strong, certainly not 18 str.

Finally, bodyweight do matter. That's why th strongest people are big and not lean. And body weight would matter more if your figthing style is swinging a heavy sword.

People like what they like in fantasy, so whatever. But the justification you provide just don't work.

Roswynn wrote:


Add to that the fact that Wayne wasn't drawing a weightlifter, he was drawing a swordswoman. Real world martial artists don't necessarily bulge with muscles - they're certainly very fit, fast and agile, and can often hit hard and endure a lot of fatigue, but few of them look as muscular as Camille

And they are divided in categories for a reason.

Yeah, most Real world fighters don't have bulging muscles, they aren't str 18 either.
Real world fighters would have str 12, 14 or 16. 18 and beyond would only be reserved for the heaviest categories.


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Rysky wrote:
We draw the gnome how we want the gnome to look.

"we" is a little too many people. The artists will draw such gnome however they desire. That doesn't make that picture to be except of criticism.


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My conclusion comes from the look of her (ridiculously exposed) slim torso. Compare it to Meg squat's or Camille Leblanc-Bazinet's torso (and those women are probably not str 18 either)

The legs look slim too.


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Raylyeh wrote:
To me her build fills the requirements for a strength of 16

I see a str 10, 12 at most.


Real world biological differences between men and women don't need to be argued or taken into consideration.

I, personally, as someone who lift weights just would have preferred that the art of fantasy strong woman would have been modeled after real world strong women. It would have been cooler, for me, that's it.


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Rysky wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Roswynn wrote:


Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.
Sworpersons with the str of powerlifters though.
You do realize we can have Gnome and Halfling Barbarians with Strength scores naturally in the 20s right? Starting out they can have up to a 16.

Yes, and they can be drawn as fragile/weak physiques if the artist so desires. Some people would like that, others wouldn't. Just ast with Amiri art here.


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Roswynn wrote:


Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.

Sworpersons with the str of powerlifters though.


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Cole Deschain wrote:
Nicos wrote:
If you are arguing from a semi-realistic point of view, then people doesn't get that strong without looking strong, that's for sure. And the picture doesn't match the criteria to me.
I think that's really the crux of this... Amiri looks like some very strong people I've actually seen fight. Thus, I have no problem with it.

from a PF1 point of view, a well trained str 12 or 14 would look very strong to regular people.

Consider that Str 18 is almost at the top of human capabilities for low level people, aka every person on earth. Thus, we are talking about heavyweight here.


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If you are arguing from a semi-realistic point of view, then people doesn't get that strong without looking strong, that's for sure. And the picture doesn't match the criteria to me.

Now, Amiri is a fantasy character so she can be as skinny as she like and still be strong as hell.

People idea of d&d fantasy vary, not to mention their artistic preferences. That's why some people like the picture and others don't.


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I think bodybuilders have not been used as an example. Instead, she was compared Olympic weightlifter and powerlifters. I don't think anyone can find anyone that can deadlift 600 lbs and looks lightweight.


I'll post tomorrow. Still getting used to the change in my working schedule.


No gameplay page yet?


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TheGoofyGE3K wrote:
To everyone who has an issue with her appearance here, what do you think ofthe other picture of her, the one of her fighting the giant?

IN that picture she seems to have a bigger upper-back, which is nice, but having so much uncovered flesh is not good for survivability. I don't know what kind of opinion are you looking for, I find that picture of her to be not bad but not great either.


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I don't think there is anything to resolve. It's just a pic, some people like it, some others don't.


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TOZ wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I don't understand what you said.
"...her body doesn't look able to do that killing" is precisely why you would end up dead for underestimating her based on a flawed idea of what body types are capable of murder.

If she had other combat style, maybe. But strength doesn't come without muscle. Her chest and back shows a lack of upperbody strength. We can't clearly see her shoulders and arms, but they probably are not up to the task either.

Now, this is fantasy, and different people have their different tastes. Some like little lolis being able to lift a truck in their animes, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand why some people don't fall in love with her bodytype does not match what she is supposedly able to do.


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Cole Deschain wrote:


An 18 just means she can lift 300 pounds over her head under the RAW. At 101 pounds, she'd be carrying a Medium load which offers mild encumbrance.

So, a 18 str character can deadlift 600 pounds. This is World champion Stefi Cohen and She can't deadlift that weight.


I don't understand what you said.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Yeah, I'm in agreement with MaxAstro. This version of Amiri is unsettling, with a feral madness shining from her eyes. As I said in one of my earlier posts, she very much looks like someone capable of suddenly and completely losing it and killing people in a violent rage at any moment (not that she necessarily will...but she could if she decided to).

That's disturbing and I don't blame people for being disturbed by it. I just also think it's a totally reasonable look for Amiri to possess.

That's a strange conclusion. While her countenance does look Feral, her body doesn't look able to do that killing.


.


Charlie Brooks wrote:

I think he's talking about the final Bestiary. The Playtest Bestiary was just a quick and dirty way to get stat blocks into our grubby little hands.

Oh, well, 20 lines of flavor text sounds quite great.


I don't want to sound conflictive, because that's totally not my intention, but I don't think you are correct.

Looking at the green dragon I find

"Green dragons dwell in the ancient forests of the world, prowling under towering canopies in search of prey. Of all the chromatic dragons, green dragons are perhaps the easiest to deal with diplomatically"


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One problem the old bestiary had was that monster with large statistics tend to suffer in the "description" department. A lot of dragons are a bunch of numbers, a nice pic and a sentence of description. I hope that doesn't happen too often in PF2. Looking at an old d&d 2e bestiary, monster had a lot of descriptive text, and that was quite cool.


I'm a fan of her face and facial expression. The rest I don't like.


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Ah, "Completely coincidental", That's what a fellow player of mage the ascencion says every time she screw reality.

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