**Official Query** Arcanist Revision


Class Discussion

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I think this new direction i cooler, but i think that an mystic theurge like prestige class combining spell casting progression as a wizard/witch and a sorcerer would be very cool and worth considering.


Zarpy wrote:
I think this new direction i cooler, but i think that an mystic theurge like prestige class combining spell casting progression as a wizard/witch and a sorcerer would be very cool and worth considering.

Do you mean a version of the arcanist with the witch's limited spell list?

I think that could be a lot of fun if they got some combination of hexes, a familiar, or more of these coming Arcanist talents in return.


Lo&beholder wrote:

ONE QUESTION

WHAT HAPPENS IF THE ARCANIST GETS AHOLD OF SOMEONE'S BONDED OBJECT OR STICK THAT HAS BEEN SHILLELEIGHED OR FAMILIER OR ANIMAL COMPANION...?

you get the picture.

qualls tokens

How is this different than sundering the object or killing the familiar? These are not new tactics.

There is no need for concern. This is not a new danger. If you have never faced this danger then your DMs are too nice and likely will not have the Arcanist do it either.

Wow tablet spell checkers create some odd responses edited post due to "auto-correct"


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Excaliburproxy wrote:


Do you mean a version of the arcanist with the witch's limited spell list?

I think that could be a lot of fun if they got some combination of hexes, a familiar, or more of these coming Arcanist talents in return.

I would LOVE to see a witch archetype that uses the arcanist's (or sorcerer's) spell casting method. I like the witch a lot, but am fed up with vVncian spell preparation.


I like this rethinking of how the arcanist is intended to work. Can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

Liberty's Edge

Starfox wrote:

Love the new direction!

The "disassemble spell" mechanic sounds like it could lead to a post-battle debuff phase, where the arcanists dissembles all the buff spells both his party and the enemy have (and which are about to run out) in order to rebuild the arcane pool.

Something should probably be done to prevent this before it derails the new cool idea.

Or they could just realize that this is a thing that will happen, and balance accordingly. If they treat the arcane pool as something that will be refreshed often, then the effects it creates can be minor enough (or cost enough points) that the ability to constantly eat magic to refresh it that they don't cause any balance issues.

For a class with the Arcanist's new flavor, I would rather see their arcane pool fluctuating constantly over the course of an adventuring day.


Is this class going to become like the spellthief from 3.5?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would like to see the arcanist be able to mess with all magical mechanics. It would be awesome to see them change mechanics

such as

cast a spell as a supernatural ability
cast a spell as an extraordinary ability
borrow other arcane mechanics such as hex, bardic performance, magus arcana, school powers, bloodlines. ideas that work for this - if an arcanist is adjacent to a willing arcane caster ally an arcanist can borrow a use of an ability to power an effect. Arcanist uses witches hex to recall a spell or actually use the hext at lower power. This could do wonders for action economy especially if the arcanist can use another caster's abilities. I'd love to see an arcanist put his hand on a bard and let him maintain two performances at the same time by tweaking the magic, or touch a magus and a fighter and let the magus apply his arcane pool to the fighter's weapon.

Other interesting things for downtime - an Arcanist uses a willing monk's ki power to fuel the arcane pool of a magus

or
merge arcane and divine - an arcanist uses a cleric's channel energy uses to give a bard more spell slots.

An arcanist modifies a cleric's power to let them trade a divine slot for an arcane slot.

This is could be areally cool class that provides lots diverse mechanics to improve support, diversity in spellcasting, and action economy.

Silver Crusade

What about an arcane blast option on that of the same level progression of the rogue sneak attack.


Elrawien Lantherion wrote:
Is this class going to become like the spellthief from 3.5?

Gods, I hope not. As cool as Spellthief is flavorfully, it's painfully useless in most situations.

Grand Lodge

I'm just wondering on how long it'll be before we see the new Arcanist, because it sounds awesome, and I want to see about using it for PFS, and other stuff.

Liberty's Edge

I will like to see maybe a power or class feature that will allow an arcane spell caster of any type to consume their own spells or items to metamagic spells with great potential. Maybe that is what is in mind for the future of the Arcanist. When I think of powerful wizards I certainly always think of modifications to exist spells. Maybe my idea of a wizard needs tweeking a bit.


Another analogy, because to me magic goes back to music...
Sorcerer - raw, unadulterated talent - prodigy
Wizard - classical performer and composer
Arcanist - Jazz improv. Themes, variations, riffs, fusion. Requires a solid grounding in any given genre (blues, afro pop, raggae). Can perform competently either as a classicist, or cut entirely loose like a prodigy.

With that analogy in mind, I recommend that we specifically MAD the class - concentration, willpower, courage to execute the themes - Wisdom for DCs and bonuses to dispel/decompose/consume magic, as well as spells cast-able per day. The inspiration and panache to modify, tease apart, redirect, riff on magic is from force of personality - arcane pool powered by Charisma. Every iprov artist needs structure and riffs - based on training and a broad repertoire, the arcanist has material to work with - bonus spells per day (and per-level free spells) based on Intelligence.

MAD is normally a problem for a class - in this case, it could be a feature - and explicit tradeoff of "you can't do everything well all the time".
INT + WIS - closer to wizard - more prep, less improv
INT + CHA - breadth, flexibility, not much 'oomph'
WIS + CHA - closer to sorcerer - flexible within narrow confines, hitting hard.


Specific 'arcanist talent' thoughts -

matter assembly - by expending one point from the arcane pool, the arcanist can apply the Empower feat and improve the CL for any casting of a memorized transmutation spell with the save annotation (harmless, object), with no increase in spell level.
metamagic mastery - choose a metamagic feat which you know. You may expend points from the arcane pool to reduce the effective spell level to apply that metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell. You may also spend an additional point to offset increased spellcasting time for that spontaneously cast metamagic spell. If you also have an item mastery feat, you may apply the metamagic feat to a spell cast from the item, if enough arcane pool points to offset the increase in spell level. This talent may be purchased more than once, and applied to different metamagic feats.
item mastery - choose an item type for which you might otherwise qualify (you do not need to possess the feat). You may spend points from your arcane pool to temporarily add charges (or daily uses) to the item, if you meet the requirements (except the item creation feat) to craft the specific item. An additional point may be spent for each unmet requirement. The temporary charge lasts 1 minute, plus one minute per bonus for your DC-setting statistic. You may also spend points from your arcane pool, and draw off charges (but not daily uses) from such an item, and add a spell slot of a level equal to the number of charges (and pool points) drawn off
maker mastery - by expending one point from the arcane pool, the arcanist can apply the Empower feat and improve the CL for any casting of a memorized conjuration(creation) spell, with no increase in spell level.


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People keep saying Wisdom for this guy for some reason.

Please no. I want my forgetful, wild-eyed, insane, genius, low-wisdom, magic-ripping spellslinging tattered-robe brimstone-smelling 'blaster mage.


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then play an evocation wizard. or sorcerer. or even a magus. that character design isnt hard to pull off.


Has anyone mentioned "spellfire" yet? When converting 2nd edition to 3.5 I came up with a points system. It was more like a warlock in the end though, but could heal small amounts using raw magic.

Approaching this like rogue talents has a lot of promise (although there are like only 3 worthwhile talents). I like the Qinggong monk substitutions for feats, spells or abilities based on level mechanic as well.


Someone invoked 'The Will and the Way'. So raw force of will seems to be on the agenda. That means wisdom.


Arcanist feels solidly like an INT class to me. Breaking things into components and reassembling - Lego was always Int based.


Starfox wrote:
Arcanist feels solidly like an INT class to me. Breaking things into components and reassembling - Lego was always Int based.

IF magic worked like legos, which it may or may not (it has always been left fairly vague, on purpose). Having the arcanist use Int only inherently means the "majority class" is the wizard (doubly so with the use of the spellbook). Since Sorcerers use Cha, there should be some presence of Cha in the class mechanics to legitimize the melding of the two classes. Alternately, using Wis as suggested allows for a neutral ground, and, IMO, does make a certain amount of sense.


Gherrick wrote:
IF magic worked like legos...

Magic in general might not work like legos, but the Arcanist treats it as if it was. But I do see your point about losing the sorcerer if you make this Int - it becomes a wizard with spontaneous casting. Which is fine by me personally, but I agree it is debatable.


I want to like the idea of Arcanist as a Wisdom caster.

All I see is abuse as a stepping stone to Single Stat Mystic Theurge Mega Munchkinism.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I'm pretty positive that they're not going to make the Arcanist a Wisdom caster. It doesn't fit Paizo's idea of arcane magic. It'll still be Intelligence, I'm sure.


Charisma is also still an arcane stat.

Like I said, I want to like the idea of the Arcanist as a Wisdom caster.

I just foresee the very notion inviting yet more munchkinish bullpuckey.


Cranky Bastard wrote:
I just foresee the very notion inviting yet more munchkinish bullpuckey.

Why?

Because that means arcanists will have more skill points and better knowledge/spellcarft skills rather than social?

The arcanist does get their casting from studying and understanding it so Intelligence makes sense, that their reservoir of power however is innate is nicely represented by semi-spontaneous nature of their casting.

If any arcane class ever would have made sense with wisdom as casting stat it would have been the witch. But that train has sailed long ago.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Threeshades wrote:
Cranky Bastard wrote:
I just foresee the very notion inviting yet more munchkinish bullpuckey.

Why?

Because that means arcanists will have more skill points and better knowledge/spellcarft skills rather than social?

The arcanist does get their casting from studying and understanding it so Intelligence makes sense, that their reservoir of power however is innate is nicely represented by semi-spontaneous nature of their casting.

If any arcane class ever would have made sense with wisdom as casting stat it would have been the witch. But that train has sailed long ago.

I think Cranky was saying that Wisdom-based casting would allow for Munchkin-y brokenness because of Mystic Theurge builds, and I agree. Yes, Charisma is also an arcane stat, but it has been since 3.5. Making Wisdom-based Arcane casting would then suggest that we should also have Int-based divine casting. I just think they'll stick with Int for arcane, Wis for divine, and Charisma for both.


Okay that makes sense. I agree with all of the above.

Shadow Lodge

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Given the inherent weaknesses in a Theurge build - primarily, being a level behind (at least) in spells available and thus below the expected magical capacity of a caster - a single-stat combination with Cleric is hardly something I see as a worry. Arcanist is already delayed in spell acquisition the same way Sorcerer is, this would just be a further slowdown of their progression, putting a Theurge even further behind.


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Stop being reasonable, guys. You aren't the forums I am used to. You're scaring me :(


I think you forget about the Empyreal bloodline.
Look, see, wisdom arcane casting.
Not so far fetched.
Heck you got the Sage bloodline Int on Int and no big time munchkinining there.
Munchkinish...Munchkian....Munchkinian...


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a theoretical WIS arcanist/cleric/MT wouldnt be that different from an empyreal sorc/cleric/MT, so it's hardly munchin-material, especially since youre already way behind regular casters and... oh right, horde of ninjas. carry on then.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So the combination of an INT class and a CHA class should use WIS, you say?

Nope. Either INT or CHA works, but dear GOD don't make it use both.


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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Or if you really wanted to nerf yourself, Sorcerer/Oracle/MT :P

I honestly can't see a problem with there being a WIS-based arcane caster, then again I also support there being an INT-based divine caster.

Grand Lodge

Jason Bulmahn wrote:


Arcanist
Some spellcasters weave magic into a beautiful tapestry. Others draw upon their innate gift to produce magic. The arcanist takes a different route. Seeing magic for what it really is, the arcanist is able to pull apart magic, ripping the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey her will. It is not an easy task, but it allows her to use magic like no other. She can consume her spells, and eventually those of magic items and other spellcasters, to fuel her powers. She can use the raw essence of magic to create powerful effects, both wondrous and deadly.

This is amazing! This is what some of us have been saying for a while now: The class ideas are solid and their themes are compelling; we just thought there was a better way of approaching it than simply mashing together features from two other classes.

I'm absolutely positive that this new version of the arcanist is going to be much, much better than the previous one. When that happens, please consider the same approach to the rest of the classes in this book! :)

Okay, onto actual ideas to contribute to this thread:

I'd love to see this class's spellcasting stat be INT or CHA, but use the other attribute for the pool of points they get to spend on improving spells.

For example, I cast arcane spells based on my INT, getting save DCs and number of spells known based on INT.

On the other hand, my spells per day are modified by my CHA, and 1/2 my level plus my CHA gives me a pool of "arcane juice" that I can use to modify spells I cast. It's kind of like arcane grit.

I can spend a point of juice to slap some metamagic on a spell for free (one point per modified spell level), cast/recover a spell (one point per spell level), or maybe grant myself spell resistance for a few rounds.

You would get juice back each morning after 8 hours of rest, but you could also get points in other ways. Whenever you make a save against an enemy's spell, kill an enemy with a spell, or overcome an enemy's SR, you get a point back.

Also, you could consume a scroll to get points (one per level of the spell on the scroll), suck charges out of a wand, or do a special 30' ranged touch attack against another spellcaster. Let's call this "arcane leeching." You do opposed caster level checks; if you win, you both take 1d4 damage and you get 1 juice point.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

@saker

I mentioned Spellfire in the other thread about a week ago. Some others and I were talking about the "arcanists understand magic for what it is" concept, and it was pretty soon after that when Jason started singing the same tune. Problem is with Spellfire, is that it's intellectual property. So they'll have to change the tone a little.


I feel the initial idea of the arcanist was not so bad, not for a new PC class, but for an excellent true Arcane/Sage Archetype and/or bloodline of the Sorcerer.
Can you keep somewhere your latest version of this beta ?

The new version of the Arcanist class should be based on INT and CHA to balance its great flexibility.


More of a channeler at that point, not just an 'arcanist'...


Well if they change the arcanist name to sage then you could have your wis based caster but otherwise int is the best fit for this class.


Spellfire Channeler 2.0?

Scarab Sages

Arcanovore 8^)


Arazyr wrote:
Arcanovore 8^)

Atronach...too bad it can't be used due to IP issues.


This new direction makes me excited, I look forward to seeing how they match the mechanics to the flavor.


Gherrick wrote:
Arazyr wrote:
Arcanovore 8^)
Atronach...too bad it can't be used due to IP issues.

Spelleater?

The Exchange

I really like the new direction for this class. I can't wait to see what you come up with.

It would be awesome if they had the ability to swap out prepped spells for dispel (or a modified dispel-like ability) much like how clerics swap out spells for cures.

It would also be interesting if they could sap magic items temporarily, rather than permanently (which would make them useful but not too powerful). Perhaps something akin to a burst (like a cleric's channel), with the associated feat to selectively filter out your friends, that either drains/decreases magic items/enhancements or buffs/increases magic items/enhancements).


So no word so far on when we will see the update ?


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"Once Jason is done with it. Plus a few days."


If people make an arcane wisdom caster, I am going to burn the world to the ground.

That is not a threat. That is a promise.


Excaliburproxy wrote:

If people make an arcane wisdom caster, I am going to burn the world to the ground.

That is not a threat. That is a promise.

I live in Alaska, I'd like to see you try and burn my winter wonderland.


wolflord wrote:

I really like the new direction for this class. I can't wait to see what you come up with.

It would be awesome if they had the ability to swap out prepped spells for dispel (or a modified dispel-like ability) much like how clerics swap out spells for cures.

It would also be interesting if they could sap magic items temporarily, rather than permanently (which would make them useful but not too powerful). Perhaps something akin to a burst (like a cleric's channel), with the associated feat to selectively filter out your friends, that either drains/decreases magic items/enhancements or buffs/increases magic items/enhancements).

Hhhmmm....both interesting ideas.

I definitely want to see the class retain Intelligence as it's casting stat.

And I definitely don't want to see it get to tied into the Artificer gig (although an archytype along those lines could be cool).


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ok, Just for the sake of clarification why can't the Arcainist be a wisdom based caster?

And I would like an answer other then,

1.Just because.
2.There has never been a wisdom based arcane caster and never will.
3.I don't like it.

I would like actual answer like you would have on a college paper (not in length) by supporting your case with evidence.

P.S. On an additional note, why shouldn't a divine caster use Intelligence? Same procedure as above.

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