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Hey all,
I killed my first PC in a PFS session today and was kind of at a loss on how to move on with the encounter. I one shotted a 7th level character within the first round of combat and sort oh had a "HOLY CRAP! THEY'RE ALL GOING TO DIE IF I PLAY THESE TACTICS!!" moment. I started really pulling punches, which I think resulted in some dissatisfaction for some of the players.
Here's what happened;
The party did great in the social encounters, pretty much trounced the barbarians thanks to a very large lightening bolt.... But then the wheels started to come off in the final encounter.
One of the sorcerers rides an animal companion and has a habit of charging head I first into combat. His animal companion attacked one of the babaus, then on their turn, two of the three babaus ( not in melee) used their summon ability, with one being successful to summon a fourth in flanking position with the sorcerer on her companion. They both attacked, and I rolled to see if they attacked rider, or mount, I rolled rider on both. The first babau landed all three attacks, plus sneak attack, dropping the PC below her con. Since the PC went down, which I felt super bad about... I said the second attack would then go to the mount, as they are intelligent creatures.
.....this is when I basically lost my cool. The PC started stating that in his absence, the companion would revert back to bestiary form... I'd never encountered a PC death, let alone with a companion, so we all started hashing it out, etc... Finally I ruled that his companion would stay in the fight and continue on his last command (attack), but it kept its companion stats. I was flustered, and I also started realizing that this party had very little in the way of overcoming the demons DR and that if I used th shadow demons deeper darkness, or some of its shadow magic they were royally screwed. So I started fudging rolls and not using as smart of tactics... It got a little messy, and I could tell that at least one player was annoyed that while I was definitely holding back, they were still in VERY bad shape. They wound up making it though by the skin of thei teeth, with another PC deeply in the negative at the end of the encounter.
I feel that if I hadn't started pulling up, I would have killed one or two more players in this fight...at the least... But I am left feeling like I should have just unleashed the hounds so to speak, and let them feel like thy REALLY accomplished something for winning.
Advice on dealing with this in the future would be much appreciated. Many thanks :)
Also, posted from my iPad, so my apologies for typos.
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Holding back or unleashing the hounds are both valid choices. It is just a matter of playstyle that is better for the group.
Personally if you are a low BAB/d6 class and you ride into melee I would not feel to sorry for that character. As for the rest of the party, it seems they wanted you to not hold back. Yeah as a GM I dislike killing PC's, but I will do it, especially if they like that style of play. Maybe next time they will use better tactics.
As for the companion reverting,the rules are silent AFAIK...I am sure it would eventually go back, but I don't know when. For the purpose of combat I would allow it to keep its current form.
IMO, unless you threw a really overpowering encounter against them ("Here are 2 Balors for you guys have fun! Kill them and you go up to 6th level!", you shouldn't feel guilty. Especially if they had good information about what they were about to fight (or at least the means to get said information).
Death happens. It's not even a big deal by 9th level. TPKs can be a bit more problematic, since there's no one left to hire a Cleric (who will surely agree to bring them back in exchange for a huge favor... And there you have a cliffhanger!)
But really, even TPKs are only a problem if the GM used some way too powerful opponent... If they die because of bad decisions, don't feel guilty. It was their fault.
Death by bad luck can leave a bitter taste in their mouth, though... While I don't want my players to die because a mook confirmed a critical hit, I don't want them to think they are immune to random chance either. Randomness is a big part of this game, after all.
I use the Hero Points rule, though, so dying simply because of bad luck is a very rare occurrence.
Now, this being PFS, I'm not sure what advice to give, since I don't know how much of the adventure the GM is allowed to modify. So I'll just say it again: Don't feel too bad... Characters die sometimes, they can usually be brought back, but even if that's not possible... Well, there's always another character sheet waiting to get a cool background and provide some nice role play.
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I know how you feel. The first time I dropped a PC I felt pretty bad about it but, all and all its a game. If there is no chance of death then its not a very good game. I have since decided that I wont pull any punches for either side when it comes to letting the dice fall where they will. Overall I think my players appreciate that sense of danger and thats what keeps them coming back. If a 7th level player is still charging into combat then I say the gloves are off and it may help that person to be a better player in the future.
I am not too sure how the guidelines go for PFS but I think "fudging" might be frowned upon for either side.
Step back, take a few deep breaths, and relax. When a player dies, especially as they progress ever higher into the levels, its to be expected. Its simply how the dice come down/luck/destiny/what-have-you.
How did the sorcerer react to being killed? Did they start crying, laugh it off, get angry, or simply seemed somewhat disappointed? If it was only somewhat disappointed or still acting like they are having fun its a good sign that they do not let their character's death impede the enjoyment of those around them.
Did the sorcerer ever once state something similar to you were being "unfair"? If not, its a good sign as the player accepts what happened and is "rolling with it".
I personally don't pull any punches for my players, but at the same time I will make sure too not pick on a character with all the monsters.
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The sorcerer did have enough prestige in PFS to Rez his character... And frankly, he didn't seem too terribly upset. It was just sort of unnerving to me and I wasn't sure how to handle it. I've heard of parties withdrawing from this particular encounter, as defeating it is not necessary for success in the scenario.
I will say that the experience has resulted in my husband researching ways to overcome DR in the future! Had they had a paladin, or inquisitor in the party, it would have been a totally different scenario! But the two melee characters were dependent on iterative attacks, and with DR 10... That's tough! The archer, too, was getting a significant amount of his damage soaked, though after this session, he is taking clustered shot, so it will be less of an issue.
Edit: DR 10 / good or cold iron
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Step back, take a few deep breaths, and relax. When a player dies, especially as they progress ever higher into the levels, its to be expected. Its simply how the dice come down/luck/destiny/what-have-you.
How did the sorcerer react to being killed? Did they start crying, laugh it off, get angry, or simply seemed somewhat disappointed? If it was only somewhat disappointed or still acting like they are having fun its a good sign that they do not let their character's death impede the enjoyment of those around them.
Did the sorcerer ever once state something similar to you were being "unfair"? If not, its a good sign as the player accepts what happened and is "rolling with it".
I personally don't pull any punches for my players, but at the same time I will make sure too not pick on a character with all the monsters.
Yeah, I was definitely more upset about it then he was. It was totally a legit roll. Honestly, they had a +12 to hit, so I was hitting ACs in the 20s pretty frequently.
Lesson learned. I think that if I had just let it happen organically, I would have a better feeling about it at this point.
Players shouldn't expect their characters to survive every battle, IMO. Death is an essential part of the game. If there's never any real threat of death, there's never any real sense of accomplishment.
By level 7 any archer who isn't using cold iron arrows as his normal arrows is being foolish. They only cost twice as much (2gp per 20 instead of 1gp) and they would have completely taken care of this kind of thing. Too bad the monk wasn't 7th level, as he would have been able to bypass DR/cold iron with his fists. However, there are plenty of monk weapons he could be using that can be cold iron. The rogues should definitely had cold iron versions of their preferred weapons -- after all, they can't power through the DR like a heavy-hitting fighter can.
So, if the DR caused these players problems, it was because of poor preparation on their part.
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Edit: DR 10 / good or cold iron
Seriously?!? OR cold iron and nobody could deal with it? Why does the archer not have a 2 GP stack of cold iron arrows? Or anyone for that matter having a none masterwork cold iron whatever that is gonna be under 100 GP by this level? Seriously, a cold iron weapon, a silver weapon and a couple of oils of magical weapons are kind of mist have items by mid levels unless you have a way around it (like say a furious +1 weapon on a barbarian since a +3 weapon is kinda out of the price range of most character until your 3/4 of the way to level 12). I think PFS might need a first steps part 2 that takes place at level 6ish that goes through some basic items you should have.
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I roll all my dice in front of my players and let the dice fall as they may. If a player dies a player dies it comes with the territory of playing the game. I do how ever play the npcs with tactics suitable to there intelligence and instinct. Example a pack of wolves will have one lure the party into an ambush were there all surrounded then attack there legs tripping the party for easy attacks. Its a valid tactics that wolves do in real life. Though said wolves will not attack 1-3x and say to themselves o its to hard and move to the next target because they are not that intelligent.
DMFrank to the RESCUE!!!
To start, three terms/words need to be universally coined, "golfbagging","softballing", and "Ghetto-crit".
At sixth and seventh levels does the party need a putter?... No... but they might need cold iron, maybe silver, maybe adamantine... Golfbagging everything you need to fight creatures like swarms should be logical, and they paid the price, especially with the season five Devil's theme fast approaching.
My stance is new players should die game one or game two, softballing any of these games helps no one. All of us will cry, eat characters, and the like if we become too attached, at seventh level, you are too attached. Mostly softballed tables crumble under pressure, we played that game and the most memorable thing that happened is the Gnome made the Blackros matriarch fall in love with him forever.
If you roll max damage without actually critting, we call it a Ghetto-crit. It's rare but a reroll using a shirt and the portfolio rerolls, makes the games' unlucky periods kind of balanced. Imagine the boss badguy bursting into tears after the Witch uses misfortune. If you do not let the players see this tactically unlucky side of the game, I will at Gen Con.
I think the person that died will always resent you. I would if you softballed it "after" you killed player one, does that even make sense to you now? Why would you? It makes you seem unfair and unsure. Did you make a mistake by flanking? I do not get why TPKing is never fated to happen at your table, statistically, with your players lacking resources, and obvious experience, it would.
Playing the game at level one should be just as perilous as playing at level seven, if the party stays ready, they do not have to "get ready" during the final encounter of one of the greatest modules that we've ever roleplayed in. Like Dax, they are either too confident, or too complacent. I'm a very pessimistic person by nature.
Weirdly enough, I'm not scolding you or molding you, it's a landslide of information, and you can not teach everything or know every rule. I'm just rooting for consistency. I argue that people respect dying, if Valeros dies, I cry inside, missing the guy eight times has a consequence, getting bullrushed off the Throaty Mermaid was new, but if all of "MY" bad luck makes the DM cry I'm confused.
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My stance is new players should die game one or game two, softballing any of these games helps no one. All of us will cry, eat characters, and the like if we become too attached, at seventh level, you are too attached. Mostly softballed tables crumble under pressure, we played that game and the most memorable thing that happened is the Gnome made the Blackros matriarch fall in love with him forever.
Well...yes and no. Crushing new players is not a very good way to get new players...and we WANT new players. I do agree that if you coddle them too much, they tend to carry bad habits into higher tier games...bad habits that can get the party killed. I have pulled back on some near TPKs that were at the low tables, BUT they all learned some pretty valuable lesson on how to avoid those in the future in the process. So you don't actually need to kill anyone to teach new players to play better. Having them within an inch of their character's lives can serve just as well.
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Asking players for Knowledge checks is also important, if they realize upfront they need cold iron and don't have it, they can go to retreat mode or otherwise deal with the emergency of a battle they're not prepared for. And in general players need to realize when a tactical retreat is a good idea. If they never face such a serious situation in-game, many players can just mentally remove retreat from their options.
Quandry wrote:
Asking players for Knowledge checks is also important, if they realize upfront they need cold iron and don't have it, they can go to retreat mode or otherwise deal with the emergency of a battle they're not prepared for. And in general players need to realize when a tactical retreat is a good idea. If they never face such a serious situation in-game, many players can just mentally remove retreat from their options.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Retreat? Most fantasy gamers usually go the "For Frodo!"-hero route.
It sounds like that party would/will go in "Chin-First" even if they had to run a lemonade stand for a day job. They care not if the lemonade is pink or has DR.
I like the Escalator of Empereal Enlightenment...First Steps "Again"-idea at 7th level. "So you want to play a pregen?" If you guys have seen the youtube roleplay coach, the Dungeon B@stard, we all need to review basic stratagies from time to time.
I think players either use the Skills and Knowledges all of the time or they don't at all. I'll bet that the DM who started this thread could suggest it, you could suggest it, I could also in the same game and some people will be like "I'll play my own character thank you very much."
I know the Gary Gygaxian style is that we all die or end up outside the front door, until we guess right or prepare a little bit better with a ten foot pole, be it cold iron or not.
Okay. This is what I think. You gave them an encounter with demons killing PC, not your fault. Now let me explain why.
First of all, sorcerer charging ahead from the group and think he can take on an six men encounter for a round without dying? Foolish. Yes, a sorcerer should be able to survive that with the right spell, but her didn't. Why? Because he was so blinded by his power, he should know that no one can survive an enough on his own unless you are playing the first level 1 encounter with a level human barbarian with reach polearms, power attack and combat reflex. Still, not as easy as with the whole team. So it's not your fault that he charge in into his own death.
Secondly, my rouge team mate and most of us only just playing out first pathfinder campaign, but at level 5, he used a lot of his money getting cold iron weapons already. So no excuses for those level 6 to not prepare at all for this.
Third, you have 2 level 7 sorcerers, the spell damage output would be very decent. All the team has to do is not letting those demons get close to the caster. Do the double rouge flanking tactic so double sneak attack, and have the rest of the team focus fire on one of them. One down. Would the demons attack the caster after that? Shouldn't be, because the rouges deal higher damage so they will try to attack one of them first. But that's when the monk comes in, grapple one of them so their lose a action to break free. The barbarian can do the same with rage.
Lastly, they can always retreat. It's back to the first point of the sorcerer charging in. If he didn't do that, the team could have a chance to decide if the encounter is too strong for them or now. But because they have no team work at all, the sorcerer charged into his death. So not your fault.
There are so much the team can do, so you did nothing wrong. Can't go easy on the team all the time, or they will never learn how to play better.
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Cold Napalm wrote:
Crushing new players is not a very good way to get new players...and we WANT new players.
Even as an experienced player Cold, you would love my DMing style, give the bossfight person a wand of Magic Missles or make it an Alchemist and I will make you remember what Quandry just wisely wrote:
"... in general players need to realize when a tactical retreat is a good idea."
I am goofy, and of course, the greatest player who has ever lived, so my recruitment ability goes beyond a pregen death.
People respect my honesty at the table, buy the t-shirt (reroll), buy the portfolio(reroll), I'll buy you cursed dice, I'm rooting for the negative con threshold and hoping that you scream "In your face DMFrank!!!" when you win. Emotional play, dramatic dice roll reactions,I'm just being more intense.
I take pictures of the 8 year olds' first Natural 20's and post them online. I think teaching Spartan style is appropriate, throw the babies off the cliff, if they make their reflex save so be it.
In a previous post someone wrote something like the threat of death and dying heightens the joy of accomplishing the gaming goals in the end, but when it's all said and done I'm not too sure about that.
I know a guy who went through two back to back TPKs fearlessly and asked me if he should play a Cleric in the future? It doesn't matter if he learned anything from dying. I immediately built a 20 con Wizard who just used the mount spell and rocked Season 4 game 1, a Samurai with a 20 con. We know the wand of cure light wounds breaks the game- and the classes that can use said wand after game one might have a better chance to live? But who hasn't been mauled unarmored by the mountain lion?
If that guy now plays 4e becuase of me, we did, as a system, lose a lot when he made that decision, but he brags about my enthusiam still the same, and he invites me to sit as he DMs everytime I visit his home gaming store.
He will return to Pathfinder,becuase of me, and he asks for advice all of the time to bring more excitement and to create the dynamic which is lethal. I do play every edition except Next, but "I'm the one to cross Chris Perkins over." Last game I called two failed will saves and a "14" on the reroll. I'm just saying new players have other gaming options, and the law of Primacy will have you reteaching the creative intinct that may or may not exist. If we let them go they need a better experience. Sink or swim, I just want the JAWs music no matter what.
The books should be free, the modules should be free, they should pay the best players and Judges, to entertain the cybercrowds. Like the UFC, if I can knock you out every game then people will cheer.
Give me everyone in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, the Paizo staff, Bigsby, Kyle Baird (any 5 star DM), Michael Jordan, it does not matter, I'll outplay, outlast, out rule, out everything anyone as modestly as possibly possible just one time, then I'll retire.
You guys think recruitment should be something forced and contrived, intelligent people will feel manipulated, and resent silliness and we WANT intelligent players. If you tell a person that the attachment factor exists, they could luckily avoid death, but if you give them the "option" of living for any reason, how is that true to the Pathfinder system?
Actions require consequences. Death happens.
At their level they should have enough resources to deal with a death, and enough PP for body retrieval in the event of TPK.
Not being able to deal with DR 10/good or cold iron is another problem entirely. Once a character passes lvl 2 Cold Iron should be their default ammunition.
Weapon Blanch can cover the other materials.
For melee, Oil of Bless Weapon costs 100g. For 10 rounds it makes a weapon Good and "is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus for the purpose of bypassing the DR of evil creatures or striking evil incorporeal creatures."
As a bonus it also auto confirms crits on Evil.
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They both attacked, and I rolled to see if they attacked rider, or mount, I rolled rider on both. The first babau landed all three attacks, plus sneak attack, dropping the PC below her con.
...I get the impression you're not resolving these attacks individually, but instead rolling them all at once and hitting the player with a massive final tally.
-- But these creatures had multiple targets; if the PC had gone negative after the nth attack, most sentient creatures will shift their remaining attacks to other applicable opponents (obviously they could have a mind to specifically slaughter a particular foe, but that does not appear to be the case in this encounter).
Also, while they all attack on the same initiative, they do not necessarily do so simultaneously. I.e., one would wait until the other finishes, then make its own attacks (moving toward another target if the first one was dropped by its partner).
GMs pooling multiple attacks is the #1 cause of PC death I have seen in PFS which is not otherwise immediately attributable to poor encounter design or foolish player tactics and unpreparedness for their Tier...with two of the three combining to result in a casualty in this instance.
All that said, if you DID roll attacks sequentially, the PC was at 2hp after the nth attack, and -11 after the nth+1 (with the character having a CON of 10) -- them are the breaks, and you did nothing wrong.
IMO PC deaths are VERY good for the game. PCs get stupid and need to be brought back to reality. Anytime you have a sorceror charging into battle, that screams idiot that has no idea what her role is and has no fear of death. What happened was a good thing. Maybe she will learn from it.
I oftentimes see PCs get very comfortable with the fact that they have designated heals and life saving spells (breath of life) to pull them out of the fire when 99% of the NPCs do not have this. Also, every fight the NPCs get dropped yet if an NPC takes the time to finish a PC who is down but still alive (which PCS do every single time), its the DM being too hard.
Fact is that life is about knowing your limitations and knowing that you cant win all battles all the time. Some NPCs are meant to be long term BBGs that you dont run up to at lv 6 just because you are a paladin and it is evil.
Im okay with watering down the encounter if the PCs dont do anything wrong and just are bad matches for the encounter. Now if they stay and do a revamp of Custards Last Stand because they are too stupid to live to fight another day....well thats what re-rolling characters are for.
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Sometimes players do stupid stuff! When they die because of it, it's Darwinian evolution at its finest!
So, the sorcerer saw a group of DEMONS(!) and thought to himself, 'I've got some really cool demon-slaying spells at my arcane fingertips, but I've got a better idea! I'll charge them! Mounted on my toad familiar while holding the small knife I use for peeling fruit in two hands like a lance. What could possibly go wrong?'
If I had a penny for every time....
In 2nd ed we had a 12th level party. The king's ship came into dock and we were there as an extra guard. As the king came ashore he was assassinated by an attack through a warehouse window. I ran to the warehouse as fast as I could, being the brave melee fighter that I was. What surprised me was that I was overtaken by the wizard, holding his dagger in a two-handed grip! *tilt*
I'm not immune myself. I'm usually pretty solid in combat, but one strange day in 3.0 we found ourselves fighting some hill giants. I was level 8 or so, just got a new magic sword, just got Great Cleave, was full of myself. An insidious thought started to creep into my head, crucially moving the rest of my mind onto the back burner.
I worked out that with my new Frost Burst weapon, if I successfully critted then I'd do about 120 damage! And don't hill giants have about 100 hit points? One blow could kill one! And I've got Great Cleave! If I killed one I'd get a free attack on the next if it was within reach, and if that one went down I'd get another, until there were no more giants!
Completely unable to hear the pathetic sound of the rest of my mind scratching at the glass, this one idea made me Tumble to a square from which I could reach four of the hill giants(!), rolled my attack and waited for glory!
My attack was a hit! A normal....everyday....vanilla hit. Not. A. Crit.
I did about 30 damage. The four giants slowly looked down, and an odd smile broadened simultaneously across four fugly faces as they raised their tree trunk clubs....
I voluntarily threw myself into a meat grinder. I made a note to, if I survived, have a quiet word with myself.
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They both attacked, and I rolled to see if they attacked rider, or mount, I rolled rider on both. The first babau landed all three attacks, plus sneak attack, dropping the PC below her con....I get the impression you're not resolving these attacks individually, but instead rolling them all at once and hitting the player with a massive final tally.
-- But these creatures had multiple targets; if the PC had gone negative after the nth attack, most sentient creatures will shift their remaining attacks to other applicable opponents (obviously they could have a mind to specifically slaughter a particular foe, but that does not appear to be the case in this encounter).
Also, while they all attack on the same initiative, they do not necessarily do so simultaneously. I.e., one would wait until the other finishes, then make its own attacks (moving toward another target if the first one was dropped by its partner).
GMs pooling multiple attacks is the #1 cause of PC death I have seen in PFS which is not otherwise immediately attributable to poor encounter design or foolish player tactics and unpreparedness for their Tier...with two of the three combining to result in a casualty in this instance.
All that said, if you DID roll attacks sequentially, the PC was at 2hp after the nth attack, and -11 after the nth+1 (with the character having a CON of 10) -- them are the breaks, and you did nothing wrong.
No, I rolled each creatures attacks individually. The Sorcerer was reduced to below zero hit points on the third primary attack from the creature. Unfortunately, that creature ALSO deals sneak attack damage, with I could not then deal to another character. The second demon then attacked the animal companion, as the PC was no longer a threat.
As a side....there were no other PCs in melee.
Hey all,
I killed my first PC in a PFS session today and was kind of at a loss on how to move on with the encounter. I one shotted a 7th level character within the first round of combat and sort oh had a "HOLY CRAP! THEY'RE ALL GOING TO DIE IF I PLAY THESE TACTICS!!" moment. I started really pulling punches, which I think resulted in some dissatisfaction for some of the players.
Just relax and smile. Why? Because you just learned a valuable lesson. Players almost always want a fair fight... even if that fight will kill a lot of them. The players clearly learned a lesson as well, not to take every fight for granted. Just because this event was botched it also isn't likely they will hold it against you. Just apologize for 'softballing' the fight and assure them you won't pull punches in the future.
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No, I rolled each creatures attacks individually. The Sorcerer was reduced to below zero hit points on the third primary attack from the creature. Unfortunately, that creature ALSO deals sneak attack damage, with I could not then deal to another character. The second demon then attacked the animal companion, as the PC was no longer a threat.
As a side....there were no other PCs in melee.
You did nothing wrong in killing the PC. If a player decides to pull a Leeroy Jenkins by charging into melee with no support as a Sorcerer, they shouldn't be surprised when they die.
. . .Give me everyone in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. . .
You should check the headlines every now and then.
Sadly, there is only tumbleweeds and desolation in Lake Geneva, Wis. now.
"Far off I hear the rolling, roaring cheers.
They come to me from many yesterdays,
From record deeds that cross the fading years,
And light the landscape with their brilliant plays,
Great stars that knew their days in fame's bright sun.
I hear them tramping to oblivion." - Grantland Rice
Congratulations. The first PC kill is the hardest emotionally but they get easier.
Seriously, shake it off. If you DM long enough, you are going to kill PCs now and then. It is the nature of the game and that is why there are spells like raise dead, etc. in the game.
Some deaths are glorious, some deaths are embraced by the player of the PCs, some are unexpected and some are just plain stupid. It happens.
Don't be obvious with pulling punches. It cheapens the death of the PC(s) and makes the whole situation unsatisfactory for the players. Most players would rather go down fighting than accept the DM pulled his punches and gave them a 'pass' on that encounter.
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That gave me an awesome image of a knight somersaulting between the legs of a giant, into a group of them, getting pounded into a liquid. Did your character survive?
Yes, but he had an 'owie'.
Actually, he was saved by the sorceress using a silent image of a darkness spell. The giants failed their saves so they believed the darkness and couldn't see (this was in 3.0 when darkness was inky blackness, not just dim light), but the PCs knew about this tactic and got +4 to their saves to disbelieve.
As fast as he rolled in, my guy was twice as fast rolling out!
Porphyrogenitus I have not heard from my mother in awhile...
Did a tornado hit? I know years back there was a Playboy club there, Popeye's was a place for jumbo shrimp near the library, but as long as people chew juicy fruit and cheer for the Cubs, there will always be a "Lake Geneva". It's like Bill Gates never being broke again, those rich families picked that lake "forever". Gygax just happened to "live" nearby.
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Cold Napalm wrote:
Crushing new players is not a very good way to get new players...and we WANT new players.Even as an experienced player Cold, you would love my DMing style, give the bossfight person a wand of Magic Missles or make it an Alchemist and I will make you remember what Quandry just wisely wrote:
"... in general players need to realize when a tactical retreat is a good idea."
I am goofy, and of course, the greatest player who has ever lived, so my recruitment ability goes beyond a pregen death.
People respect my honesty at the table, buy the t-shirt (reroll), buy the portfolio(reroll), I'll buy you cursed dice, I'm rooting for the negative con threshold and hoping that you scream "In your face DMFrank!!!" when you win. Emotional play, dramatic dice roll reactions,I'm just being more intense.
I take pictures of the 8 year olds' first Natural 20's and post them online. I think teaching Spartan style is appropriate, throw the babies off the cliff, if they make their reflex save so be it.
In a previous post someone wrote something like the threat of death and dying heightens the joy of accomplishing the gaming goals in the end, but when it's all said and done I'm not too sure about that.
I know a guy who went through two back to back TPKs fearlessly and asked me if he should play a Cleric in the future? It doesn't matter if he learned anything from dying. I immediately built a 20 con Wizard who just used the mount spell and rocked Season 4 game 1, a Samurai with a 20 con. We know the wand of cure light wounds breaks the game- and the classes that can use said wand after game one might have a better chance to live? But who hasn't been mauled unarmored by the mountain lion?
If that guy now plays 4e becuase of me, we did, as a system, lose a lot when he made that decision, but he brags about my enthusiam still the same, and he invites me to sit as he DMs everytime I visit his home gaming store.
He will return to Pathfinder,becuase of me, and he asks for advice all of the...
Your playstyle does have it's merits amongst a certain sector of the populations...but not a great majority of it I am afraid. Most system do well when they start off a bit easier and then ramp up in difficulty as you basically progress through the game. You give an average new comer to video games I want to be the guy and they will quite video games in 1 minute. You give them gears of war where the start has a pretty good challenge but not ball busting hard and it gets harder as you play through and you have somebody who gets hooked. Now they MAY eventually want the I want to be the guy hard level of difficulty, but almost NOBODY who starts a hobby is that way. No new players = a slow death for basically any game system.
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Crushing new players is not a very good way to get new players...and we WANT new players.
Even as an experienced player Cold, you would love my DMing style, give the bossfight person a wand of Magic Missles or make it an Alchemist and I will make you remember what Quandry just wisely wrote:
"... in general players need to realize when a tactical retreat is a good idea."
I am goofy, and of course, the greatest player who has ever lived, so my recruitment ability goes beyond a pregen death.
Reminds me of an early intro scenario I ran in which the PCs were to (I hazily recall) sneak to the outskirts of a goblin war camp, retrieve a McGuffin, then split. Under no circumstances were they supposed to engage the whole army,
...which is, of course, exactly what gung-ho tweeners with level one characters want to do. After yoinking their objective, instead of leaving after dropping a few sentries, they formed up a scrimmage line and started hacking down reinforcements -- because it's easy to imagine you're invincible when everything you've ever fought has had under 5hp. The scenario accounted for this by increasing the rate at which more goblins would arrive. But the players just weren't taking the hint after five rounds, even though they were being steadily chipped at by goblins rolling 18s and up, and had polished off their last freebie CLW potions.
I didn't want to TPK a party of noobs on their first adventure, so I started role-playing the armored hobgoblin army captains in the back-ranks to have them start slaughtering their way through the mass of other goblins in an effort to reach the PCs.
"Get oughta my way!" <roll and announce damage in the high teens> "*Splat!* ...He has two goblin corpses impaled on his spiked greatclub now, and is swinging it like the extra eight isn't a problem."
...There were about fifty dice (representing goblins) on the battlemat poised to engulf the PCs like a tsunami when it finally dawned on them that it would be a really good idea to leave yesterday.
Crushing new players is not a very good way to get new players...and we WANT new players. I do agree that if you coddle them too much, they tend to carry bad habits into higher tier games...bad habits that can get the party killed. I have pulled back on some near TPKs that were at the low tables, BUT they all learned some pretty valuable lesson on how to avoid those in the future in the process. So you don't actually need to kill anyone to teach new players to play better. Having them within an inch of their character's lives can serve just as well.
I'm a new player, I'm still playing my first lvl 5 character and I'm not as stupid as that sorcerer. It's not the GM's fault that he charged into battle on his own. At my first battle, we got surrounded in a bar, my fighter bullrushed the table as soon as the archer started the fight so the casters get cover. Casters can't take hit, that's something even level one would know. Yet he charged into battle on his own, you can't blame the GM for his death.
I hate when people don't value their lives just because it's a game. Life is life, no matter what. You should never die for nothing, so that sorcerer should at least try not to, new player or not. If stupidity is the can still survive in a world of Pathfinder, as a descendant of silver dragon, I would die and forever leave this world. I would quit and never come back. But I will never do that because I know Pathfinder is not a game like that, so please don't try to make it this way. We don't need stupid people wasting lives for nothing, not in this world, not in real world.
The fight doesn't sound "b$+#*#!%". I've had a few situations where I designed a scene, and when the fighting started it was a little hot and I looked at it and went .... yeah, that's kind of a misjudgment on my part (expecting it to be a little less nasty)
This is a situation where your PLAYERS caused the risk, and so they died. Great, neato, we all agree on this front.
Here's the thing I think you can learn from:
If you then pull the punches, significantly (which I do in the right situation, I'm not saying don't ease up) as happened, one player will die and the rest will live. But in this case, the IDEAL case for player(S!) to die... they didn't. Only one died and then you eased.
This begs a question - Then when SHOULD multiple players die, if NOT when one blunders in and dies on turn one, and leaves his party horribly torn? AND they want to keep fighting?
This just begged for a real fight. Think of it this way - Were the players TRYING to get run and survive and you were hunting them down like a cruel GM and killing them? Or were they STILL trying to murder their enemies... the enemies that should be murdering them?
You don't have to make yourself choose immediately between easing up and going for the wipe. You can give your PCs a turn or two to react. Make the enemies swarm and kill the companion, then regroup and square off at the party, and really make your PCs decide if they're in or out.
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Lamonita,
You shouldn't feel bad for having a player die after rolling into melee combat alone. (Riding an animal companion doesn't count.) Stepping toe to toe with a devil is a dangerous thing. When you have half the health of a front line fighter, it becomes downright suicidal.
I've been lucky and haven't killed a player yet, but I run low tier (1-5) scenarios. Some day I may roll well and make some poor player cry, but I won't feel bad if they run into a situation unprepared and alone.
I am goofy, and of course, the greatest player who has ever lived, so my recruitment ability goes beyond a pregen death.
People respect my honesty at the table, buy the t-shirt (reroll), buy the portfolio(reroll), I'll buy you cursed dice, I'm rooting for the negative con threshold and hoping that you scream "In your face DMFrank!!!" when you win. Emotional play, dramatic dice roll reactions,I'm just being more intense.
I take pictures of the 8 year olds' first Natural 20's and post them online. I think teaching Spartan style is appropriate, throw the babies off the cliff, if they make their reflex save so be it.
In a previous post someone wrote something like the threat of death and dying heightens the joy of accomplishing the gaming goals in the end, but when it's all said and done I'm not too sure about that.
I know a guy who went through two back to back TPKs fearlessly and asked me if he should play a Cleric in the future? It doesn't matter if he learned anything from dying. I immediately built a 20 con Wizard who just used the mount spell and rocked Season 4 game 1, a Samurai with a 20 con. We know the wand of cure light wounds breaks the game- and the classes that can use said wand after game one might have a better chance to live? But who hasn't been mauled unarmored by the mountain lion?
If that guy now plays 4e becuase of me, we did, as a system, lose a lot when he made that decision, but he brags about my enthusiam still the same, and he invites me to sit as he DMs everytime I visit his home gaming store.
He will return to Pathfinder,becuase of me, and he asks for advice all of the time to bring more excitement and to create the dynamic which is lethal. I do play every edition except Next, but "I'm the one to cross Chris Perkins over." Last game I called two failed will saves and a "14" on the reroll. I'm just saying new players have other gaming options, and the law of Primacy will have you reteaching the creative intinct that may or may not exist. If we let them go they need a better experience. Sink or swim, I just want the JAWs music no matter what.
The books should be free, the modules should be free, they should pay the best players and Judges, to entertain the cybercrowds. Like the UFC, if I can knock you out every game then people will cheer.
Give me everyone in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, the Paizo staff, Bigsby, Kyle Baird (any 5 star DM), Michael Jordan, it does not matter, I'll outplay, outlast, out rule, out everything anyone as modestly as possibly possible just one time, then I'll retire.
You guys think recruitment should be something forced and contrived, intelligent people will feel manipulated, and resent silliness and we WANT intelligent players. If you tell a person that the attachment factor exists, they could luckily avoid death, but if you give them the "option" of living for any reason, how is that true to the Pathfinder system?
Best post ever!
I read this theatrically out loud to my wife in my best Aziz Ansari impersonation and we were laughing hysterically. Seriously...who hasn't been mauled unarmored by the mountain lion?
Can't let this post slip to obsucurity without giving DMFrank some props for good comedy. Kudos!
-MD
A few years back, I was dropping players in a -2 CR encounter and got a earful from one of the players about how tough it was. After I showed him the details of how the encounter was set up and run, he slowly realized how bad their tactics had been and how deadly I can be with dice in my hands (First round not allowing the charging Stirges to flank the part: 10 attacks needing 15+ to hit on the weakest PC. The 19+ to get hit suffered 4 attacks randomly allotted, 3 hits with 2 crit threats, one successful. 4 of the remaining 6 also hit, 2 confirmed crits). In that game, I pulled the second wave of attackers (reduced the encounter to -3)and didn't try for confirms. 4/5 PCs were at negatives after just 3 rounds, so I hand waved the last foes when the Sorcerer shotgunned her Magic Missiles.
The group watched every roll in horror and sat in shock. Post combat, they voted me rolling behind the screen...but I had none and had to improvise.
I found out later he institutionalized the encounter in his game, think rite of passage, and had players complain of how lame it was (he even used the second wave in the first wave).
And 'YES', I know you can flank on the charge round.