I'm not misunderstanding the rules in Pathfinder, they have constructed illusions as a weak alternative to previous incarnations of Other Systems, primarily because the Extremely Creative used them too well to either make a one save die or live situation, where the party of adventurers disbelieves everything as a matter of course from that point on if the GM uses them, or breaks an encounter if used by the PCs. This aggravates the GM as it slows the game down to a crawl when every situation is disbelieved first. The other option is to have the entire party make individual will saves, with the odds on half making, half missing, and the high level illusion serving at most two rounds duty as a distraction. Why waste a spell slot on a Mirage Arcana when you can use a Baleful Polymorph at the same level? And almost every GM I have ever had ruled (mostly negatively) on illusions.
Our best GM who supported Illusions took this tack on them: If you dont disbelieve them, they are real. The character fills in the reality in their own minds to accommodate the illusion into their reality. Example: two braziers with fires lit, side by side, one illusory, one not. Both are generating light, heat, smoke, and smell. If the PC puts his hand into either, he gets burned. Why? He knows the nature of fire in his mind, and even though putting his hand in the illusory fire did not actually burn his hand, his mind accepts that as true, and he acts accordingly. He would imagine the burns, treat the hand as if burned (hitpoint damage) and until he accepts the fact that was an illusion (medic checks him out and says, "Dude, I cant see any burns") He might still accept the fire damage as real, again, imagining it as a close call. Remember, hit points are an abstract, and you could rule the damage was lethal, nonlethal, or maybe even a third type, mental. So, an image of a dragon breathing fire might seem real, and if it killed someone, our GM would have them make a save vs Death Magic (1st ed D&D) or they believed it to the point it gave them a heart attack and they died.
Illusions are an area of effect mind spell, and unless there is some wise or smart person to point out the inconsistencies in the illusion, all would be affected similarly. The illusion class sadly needs someone creating the rules system to love the class, its been the forgotten puppy of the game since first edition D&D.
You cannot ride a mount that is your size without the feat "Undersized Mount" (Advanced Class Guide) or a similar ability.
This is not written in RAI (mounted combat) but implied by a feat, therefore not a rule. The feat says "Typically..."The inverse of this is also contested by lack of mount rules for small characters on large mounts or variations on the sizes involved. Obviously, an ogre on his hummingbird mount is going to defy the Laws of Gamemastery Intelligence, so common sense is the house rule here.
We would wrap the rope around a tree, grounded spear/flag, or inside a 10' bamboo tube stuck in the ground, or run it between two trees as a clothesline and hang underwear on it. Nobody, even a monster, messes with dirty granny panties. It doesnt say it has to REMAIN vertical, it can end up angled or coiled, just 5'-30' long. It can also be longer than this, so you can run rope all over the place. You can run a grapple up a tree higher than the bottom of the rope trick and the bottom of the rope becomes the top of the Trick. Also makes a handy spot to tie off the horses, prisoners, or fish for big sharks.
A GM may rule the Alertness and Assist bonus are from the same source and you must take the better of the two, but a counter would be different methods of assistance, ie, vision versus smell on perception checks, or you use the familiar as a footstool to reach the keyhole.
Greater feint is best for the rogue when he can create or assist in a AOO against the target.
I think the key misunderstanding is related to the inclusion of the words "You" and "Your" in the description. As singular pronouns, they SEEM to indicate beneficial application to the owner of the feat, and not the world at large.
I would rule it as a GM as the poor feinted bugger is hosed to the world.
I always wondered how this would work with an area you cannot scry into because of building materials, ie, if a wizard built a lead lined library or warded space. I have always run it that it was a "bounce" or they breach the ward as if it were activated. Other game systems have fun mishap tables, like Elric of Melnibone where you get "re-assembled" incorrectly.
"You can attempt to hinder a foe in melee as a standard action. This maneuver covers any sort of situational attack that imposes a penalty on a foe for a short period of time..."
Again, not specifically worded as an attack yet definitively refers to "attack" twice in the text. If it looks like a fish, and smells like a fish, its a fish. Thusly, a dirty trick is an attack that requires a standard attack action. If I can somehow via feats/classes/magic acquire a second standard action, I can layer DT.
Removing dirty tricks is again unwritten other than the text referring to removal via a move action, however, I could also read between the lines and infer that it takes multiple move actions to remove multiple rounds of Dirty Trickery.
Actions often provoke, not every action can be ascribed due to the sheer quantity and variety in a game. That's why they put "Usually/Maybe" in the tables. As this is a later version, not every table gets updated or considered.
I know it does not clearly state if the move action to clear the condition of a Dirty Trick provokes an attack of opportunity. Many move actions do provoke. Within the text of the feat it does not clarify either for or against. I am not seeking a "its overpowered" or "its a waste of pre-req feat for Greater Improved Dirty Trick". Is this then a home rules condition I need to cover with my GM?
My example: I "Improved Dirty Trick:Blind" my opponent. I get a 3 extra successes over his CMD, so he is blind for 4 rounds in theory. He attempts to clear the blindness on his action with a move action. He does(with no saving throw, provocation, or other hindrance) OR He provokes again, and I again apply Dirty Trick as my AOO, and re-blind him/stack another Dirty Trick/normal attack, etc...
This appears broken. Why have the additional rounds apply to the CMD check at all if a simple move action clears it with no consequences? I can see it being overpowered as well for obvious reasons, as chaining blindness is as debilitating as the spell. I also could with the provocation apply a different trick, and this would require a single move action to clear all Tricks, or each one in turn?
I have played in a couple. The first was a one nighter defined PvP rogue vs rogue survival of the sneakiest. I cut the rope holding three party members on the cliff face after I faked my own death and "won".
One of the others was a miniatures space marines rpg where after you killed X aliens you became an alien and vice versa. Also planning a similar setup in Aces & Eights for a train fight, train robbers and natives versus cowboys and passengers, if you die you join the other side, basically it boils down to a draw.
One of my GMs also ran a game where he was hosting two games a day. He had each group run across the other group periodically with some conflict. Lots easier to hate Those Guys.
Better to have a short duration on the Pvp as some people get mad when favorites die.
Just to clarify further, my GM has house rules that jack up the value of metamagic feats for casters by making each feat usable (X) times per day versus (+levels) to the spells. This is just bookkeeping but reflects on the spell cast, all is allowed there.
I targeted a lich and dracolich (homebrew) standing within range, and first used accursed hex/split hex Misfortune which worked, then cast quickened piercing bouncing Mythic Sunbeam (3-4 other liches and dracoliches about) Again, 2 failed REFLEX saves. I said then they are Dazed for 7 rounds, and 13d8 damage to each. He has been hitting us with 32 SR/400hp monsters so we go armed for bear. I asked him prior to the game to review the spell, the metamagic, and condition but he chose to bog for lawyering. I get that Daze is awesome even on stuff thats not immune, but I could have metagamed (we knew we were facing an undead army) and took consecrate/maximize instead.
Before I restate this post exactly as Grayfeather, how does this work?, hopefully in the form of a FAQ response, I will blatantly Necro this thread.
I have Dazing metamagic, a spell that does damage, and use it on a Lich.
My GM said, "its a minor form of stun, undead are immune to stun. Besides that, its a magic spell effect causing it, so its the same as the Daze spell." (Wrong and extra Wrong)
My futility in rules lawyering was overruled regardless of pointing out Daze is a CONDITION versus a spell effect per the CRB. Somewhere in the rules it needs to be stated that how metamagic feats are resisted and alter spells of this kind.
Also the side argument of whether liches can be Blinded, if a Blindness effect will negate lifesense.
Please list any book references or existing FAQ/Dev responses so I have ammo, thanks!
Also, you can resist Danzig with a dose of Rammstein.
In fairness to the original OP, how do people handle this combination of rules lawyering and overpowering magical coolness in relation to the creative & clever player? Sounds like Punishment is the choice so far.
Since I think I am the creative player (sometimes), I would take offense to a GM making an arbitrary POST-spell casting change to his world like other posters have suggested. The "well, the magic fails/is altered/doesnt work like that in my world" reasoning to keep it fair simply isn't in the ruleset. If I can be countered on other aspects of the rulebook, that's fine, but I am trusting in the playtesting strength of the PF Nation for published rules and material and therein "Working as Intended."
Sioul thats a quick way to lose your spellcasters in your game. Why play a Mage if I can't oneshot something? Almost every damage or control spell over 4th level can be a "miss or die" save against NPCs OR PLAYERS. Intensified maximized fireball, piercing/dazing suffocation, dazing anything really.
Your homerules are wierd. So, if one of the players in your game dies elsewhere, they trundle him back to town, and a Resurrection spell isnt going to work in the Church of Holyness because its simply too much a drain on the citys magic reserves? Do we need to have a vote? But out in a dark cave, that same spell works GREAT. Ridonkulous.
Colfenor! You rock! I'm going to improve your arsenal however.
If you do this from 200 feet up (approximately) you can cast the feather fall as an immediate action, then when they hit at least the 151' mark say the command word to enlarge them. They build Velocity, our favorite word! and hit with each item doing 10d6 damage - see falling damage rules for stuff dropped. 500d6 plus fire, acid, cold iron, entangling, etc...in addition to your 9000 plus or minus. That's another 2000-3000 damage you're missing out on.
Concerned you might miss your target? Truestrike potion FTW!
Don't short yourself here, you're an Archmage and nukes are just a way of saying Hi!
Oh, and a mention to the immunities, sure you may not have the perfect answer to everything, but mix in some adamantite, silver, etc...or finally a use for Magic Stone so DR gets bypassed. Technically the Shrunk Item IS a magic Item.
On item one, I had the same issue, and I made up different spell lists prior if I knew in advance where I was going to be, either adventuring or downtime. In downtime I would select crafting spells like Make Whole and Permanency vs utility spells.
Chosen Ones always work better as NPCs, as PCs they either die or disrupt the life cycle of your other players. I stuck my NPC "Prince" in as a recurring plot hook, but gave him his own minor guardians so he wasnt a hindrance to the PCs but had resources and influence enough to get them stronger.
This would have been a whole different story if the Orc mothers killed their own children before the barbarian could get to them, instead of leaving them to him to kill or pervert with his wholesome goodness. It might be a horror story orc women tell their children. "Behave, or the Paladins will take you away to an orphanage and make you wear clothes and bathe."
Stop humanizing the orcs, they are fabricated evil monsters. Maybe in orc culture its survival of the fittest, and the children are off and running from birth like sharks.
My original point about pit bulls was to bring a current day monster to the comparison of orcs. Pit bulls were selectively BRED for combat. Wikipedia: "They were imported primarily, but not exclusively, for pit fighting". 200 plus years of selective breeding for a dog to enhance its aggression, durability, and deadly intent. Selective breeding means they culled the inferior members of the species. They made fighting dogs, and people kept the culls as family pets.
Don't try to put a shine on pit bulls, I'm sure you know one personally that never ate a baby, but I have dealt with dozens of them that were aggressive beyond defense of an area or person. They are the inner city version of a loaded handgun. Ask a pit bull owner if they think the dog will defend them if the owner is attacked. People want a dog that will kill for them. Also, they are put down in shelters because they are simply too numerous, abused, and unadoptable due to laws to protect the public. Want to see how fast you need new homeowners insurance? Tell them you got a pit bull. Ask a cop what he thinks of pit bulls, I bet it involves drawing his sidearm.
Just because they also have positive traits does not make them any less a land piranha.
Who knows, maybe orcs have 4-5 traits that make them decent creatures, but its that whole raping/killing/arson thing that keeps folks shooting them on sight. Remember, in LOTR the orcs were selectively bred as well.
See, and thejeff makes my point about pit bulls (orcs), you can either be soft and fuzzy or realistic. "It depends on how they were raised and socialized."
Reality says: Pit Bulls will kill some of the people who piss them off including their own family/children, there really doesn't need to be a good reason, it's just Homicide Tuesday. "And he never bit anyone before he killed little Junior, he was such a good dog."
S&F says: We should just hug it out with them and everything will turn out ok. And forgive them. And let them play with the other children.
Nature is a cruel Mother.
I will agree that pit bulls are dogs, however the true test is to go to any animal shelter in America and adopt one that you trust out of the 40 killers awaiting execution. Its very sad, they dominate the kennels in population.
Nice try Roger, you arent escaping that easy.
Not to murderhobo this any more, but turn "orc" into "trained killer psycho pit bull" and "orc toddler" into "untrained killer psycho pit bull puppies". The game dehumanizes them by their nature so we dont have to live with all that sadness.
They are MONSTERS, why deny them their nature? If a twenty seat wagon with eighteen orcs went over a cliff, I am sad there were two empty seats, and am gonna miss those horses.
Sure, they are cute when they are little, but look what they grow up to be...
This was a huge discussion before it was a discussion here, relating to the ROTRL initial scenario where goblin babies are found as part of the crawl. Goblins, Orcs, same difference.
IN EVERY INSTANCE, Paizo has flavor text of the innate violence of the goblins as a race, including their cannabilism and infanticide on their own race. They certainly have no qualms sacrificing their own, and expect the strongest to survive. Goblin high comedy involves pain and fire.
You can play the game two ways. Soft and fuzzy or hard and realistic.
Soft and fuzzy sends all evil progeny off to a mystical orphanage where they become soft and fuzzy. Lots of S&F roleplaying. Thats ok, too.
Hard and realistic means a hard choice, do you leave toddlers to the caprice of nature or a sword of mercy? Will your social blinders fix the problem or cause that particular goblin to become a larger force of destruction? Will that goblin grow up to throw the torch that burns down grandma's house? Are hard-bitten fighters capable or delicate enough to become babysitters? What would Conan do?
Again, people equate modern day morales to fantasy. Look at how early Americans treated the native tribes, "Here's a nice soft blanket full of small pox, make sure you keep your children warm with that." Fire and disease have been weapons of war for centuries, I think it hypocritical to play a combat game and not accept spilled blood.
Have an illusion of your BBEG standing in the middle of a Teleport circle trap(s) to an area made with Create Greater demi-plane. He taunts them with "HAHAHA fools, now I have drained your power and am a Demi-gawd! Run the pcs around until they all get teleported. Create a Demiplane negative/dead magic with a locked gateway to the negative plane that is connected to a river/pool/ocean of unholy/acid/undead oozes, and then fill the rest of the room with 250000 undead shadow swarm flying ghost hamsters. Each hamster has a tiny necklace with a tiny key, but only One of the 250000 that unlocks the gate, and they are made of something melty that the acid pools eat.
He didn't fall back into Hold Person, was more pushed harshly into it :)
I guess this will mean more strategic planning of initiative jumping, using a Delay to allow my friends to get in their smacks. This seems counter productive from a players perspective, and will probably generate more irritation from the GM than the oddly timed spell did.
I know it exists, but we didnt rules lawyer it mid-game this evening.
Our situation: My initiative 15, bad guys initiative 18. The rest of the party is scattered higher, between, and lower on the initiative track. I cast a spell (Chains of Light) that paralyzes the bad guy that allows a save every round to become un-paralyzed, which he fails on Round 1 after my standard action to cast it. We run through the initiative into the next round and the GM announces the bad guy is making his save check on initiative 18. I said, he cant, he has to make that save on my 15 initiative for a full round effect, the three PCs who go between 15 & 18 agree, and we have a minor issue.
My problem is that I cant find this anywhere stated directly in the combat/spell rules for when the NPC makes the save within the sequence.
My GMs point is that regardless, his guy acts on 18 (even though he has a dex of 0/paralyzed condition/helpless) and that's when he "acts" to make his save. The bad guy has no other way to create an immediate action to make the save or remove the magic. It became moot when the bad guy failed his save again and got coupe de grace'd.
Even if you can't take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter."
Any reference within the Core? In this case the stat change because of dex loss would have immediately dropped his initiative by 5 but next time we might have a wider spread. My only thought is that Hold Person/Monster, which states the victim makes its save on ITS turn, wasnt translated to Chains of Light. Otherwise, it isnt fair to the people who act within the spread on initiative, as they can never react to the spells benefit.
Again, the checks and balances in the game are not written in stone, and every monster can be reformatted by the GM. I find it particularly amusing to see people post about rules-lawyering how to GameMaster, like that ever works. I agree it would be unfair to "Evolve" to suit the parties strengths and weaknesses. As a pre-pathfinder GM I find that most higher level encounters are not "Epic". They tend to last 4-5 rounds at most, require extensive dice rolling and rules lawyering, and are not designed within the ruleset to be typically challenging especially in a Party vs Single BBEG challenge rating fight. The CR is usually set at reducing the parties daily output by 25-30%, so they can have multiple fights throughout the day.
For example, in our recent game we faced a CR25 BBEG with 1 CR20 lieutenant & 6 CR17 helpers against a CR15 party of 6. Five rounds of combat and the fight is down to the enemy lieutenant alive and one temporary party casualty due to a crit. Our GM certainly didn't pull any punches and he had a custom made BBEG. Everyone in the group could have gone another 5 rounds of similar combat.
I think the people who say "quit the game" are living in a paradise of plentiful players, not a longterm group of friends. It can tough to manage a write up weekly to amuse for 4-6 hours, and if your GM likes a particular theme, suck it up buttercup.
Edit: I do think your GM is a %^$#% for taking away dragon loot, thats cheap. My GM motto is "Crunch all you want, I'll make more..."
The problem in higher level pathfinder games is two-fold.
To defend the GM: A PC one-shotting his monster with a failed save/sr in round one = no fun for a BBEG fight. He should have kept his mouth shut and plotted quietly. Don't forget that monsters of Dragon CR can also buff before a fight.
To the player: Don't make up an optimized one shot Fireballer and be surprised when things are immune at level 12+ to fire, its the most common immunity and common choice for a cheap item/spell resist. Now, if you make an optimized chain lightning (elemental acid) caster, thats wacky good fun.
Wow, you are so hosed. Class IV Girlfiends have killed more games than dragons.
My post was to list and clarify glaring rules issues regarding Shamans as I've noticed them in play so far. Since I've been playing an Unsworn, my GM(And I) have had to almost entirely rewrite the archetype. Errors in game design and language within the class deserve clarification.
Just to get some attention in the FAQ on Shaman rules:
Extra/Split/Etc hexes used by Shamans?
Yes or No on Improved Familiar?
Unsworn shaman lack Hex as a class ability yet can take hexes from the witch and various spirits as they level, per the RAW. Do they ever get to select Shaman hexes?
Unsworn can technically take new spirits of the same type but of different variables every day. On Day one I can summon my Lore Armidillo with (CHA bonus wizard/sorceror) spells and the next day my Lore Hawk with a different inventory of spells. Great variety but extended bookkeeping. I can also summon as level allows multiple of the same spirit type, Minor Battle, Wandering Battle, etc.
5th level Shaman spell "Imbue Hex" allows a hex to be transferred to the touched party. If I cast Secret or Fetish Hex upon myself, is the duration forever since its technically a feat or is it a one shot nelly?
If I use this with Secret, cast Imbue Hex:Secret/Toppling on myself with an intention of someday having a need for Toppling, I could have one shot of every metamagic ability, with the only restriction being the level of spell slot used.
Within the same vein, with my Unsworn having multiple familiars I could put Imbue on them with my underused witch/shaman/spirit-wandering hexes and have them available as well.
Whuuwhu Whu is big dam boss of the PigKillazs in City. He raise pigs for feedz Goblinz under his feetdom. He big body disposal guy for Bigz. He wheeler dealer in City, they say he got Destiny. He teeches goblins we think small but big, we gets all little stuff dun in City for Big Folk so they see us as nesccary. Whuu make Rulez for Goblinz: No Fires without Boss Sez! Revenge Dish best served Everyday! Don’t Piss off De Bigz! Best Fightz is Unfair Fightz!
Whuu finds frennds, he makes Big Ogre Bouncer Champion his frennd, then goes and picks fight with other Tribez of Goblinz in City. He say, We Fight in Goblin Wayz, my champion against yourz. Whuus Pigkillerz get bigger every day, he get Famus in City. Lotsa dead Goblin Champions and Cheefs either die or gets put inna PigKillaz. Whuu say, You wuz in Gang Headsmooshaz, you still Headsmooshaz, but you Patch into PigKillaz, we all fight same, eat better. We take ovah blocks of City, own lotsa rich tenemunts. Ogre Champion live in basement with his worshippers, Holy White Goblinz.
Bad Night come in City. Old Scorez get settled, Whuu and PigKillaz win big fight with Skelemongers, guys who wanna turn dead bodies into slaves, stealin from Whuu’s pocket. PigKillaz elect Whuu Goblin King, He gets fat in butt so much good fuud all over. Skelemongers find out dey mess wit wrong Whuu, he all tough and stuff now, he got Major Magiks and Powerfool frennds, they get turnt into greezy spots so small not even enuff to feed pigs. Lotsa laffs, we set victory firez in our enemees houses and laff and laff. Bigz say, King Whuu, you 7th Level, you rich, you pay us for more frennds. Whuu count money three four times, he gots two hunnerds gold, they right, he rich. He buyz more Bigz frennds, they invite Whuu to Kleen Rich City. Whuu sick, not even scraps or poop for pigz or goblinz babeez there, How Bigz keep children fat and feisty?
Whuu almost 12 now, he feelinz old age, so he givez out wizdum Aneckdoats for udder dumm Goblinz.
I am playing an Unsworn and it gets further complicated when you can swap out your spirits AND get a whole new list per day by simply summoning a new Lore spirit. You can also technically have more than one lore spirit although this just shortens your list of Shaman spells further.
Shaman questions; aka How does the wandering spirit interact with the spirit familiar and other questions.
As I understand it, each additional spirit is just that, an additional familiar appropriately leveled. It provides its buff to the caster in addition to whatever other pets you have. There was much discussion about if you could take Improved Familiar feat for the special familiars, but no clear answer.
Any flying qualities are part of the animal stats, and thus the Beastiary. Hawk for example has a flight speed of 60 (average).
Why not on the Hex Vulnerability? Not everything has to be negative in life. Really the only thing you can do is blast repeated heals for x/rounds. Actually, this is pretty broken, as you could target yourself or a friendly and with time heal them to max with cure light/moderate as long as you keep the vulnerability on them.
Dang honeyed words looks pretty good, there are no good ways to increase hex DCs other than stat increases. Yeah, I missed the heavy armor/divine caster thing on regular shamans, I have an Unsworn with a Lore spirit casting wizard spells, so I would eat the miscast percentage. I went with improved initiative, and picked an initiative spirit animal/wandering plus traits.
Its free other than needing Excel, but sCoreforge is great and has most of the books. It gets updated frequently. Only thing it needs is a pickable spell list and the newest rulebook (ACG). Only issue I have is its a pain to change things for homerules adjustments without rehashing the whole set of macros.
This bag of worms was poorly written as a archetype.
Onyxlion: They are not intended to be hexless, as to use a Witch hex you must have Hex as a class feature, it's an catch-22 error within the text. You can't giveth and then taketh away...For correction, they should either say, "You can use all hexes" or "You may only select Witch hexes" and stop screwing around.
whew: again, I refer to the text in Extra Hex as not being terribly precise, as it doesn't say "minor" but does say "wandering". Perhaps they meant to include a section on the varying qualities of the three spirits available. As is, they are all the same physically. You are right about split hex.
Someone else posted that Unsworn also can't get Manifestation at 20th, this is in error as well, it isnt removed by archetype changes.
You got a lot of crazy stuff going on there. What is your base class for one? New ACG Shaman? Anyways, Blend is for elves only, only witches get a Hex at level 1 so Slumber will have to wait for level 2 as a Shaman. I would put the 18 in wisdom and 17 in either int/cha/dex/con and strength last I guess if you have to, you're not ever going to be great in melee. Shamans are a caster class that can be terrible in medium armor. If you have to go somewhat melee, I would go a finesse route with combat reflexes and a higher dex to both avoid attacks and hit more. Spear is a good choice for reach, better if you trust your familiar spirit to melee/aid another/flank.
Stuff I've seen done:
In general its like the old war adage, "If all things are equal between two forces, it will boil down to the army with the simplest uniform wins"
Get a big pad (3' x 4') of 1" squares paper from Staples for 15 bucks, a sharpie, and draw as you encounter.
That's your map, the players don't own it for returning or getting un-lost. And they don't know where traps, secret doors, etc. are until they find them.