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I posted this a week ago, but botched the link. Let's try again.
Owl's Guide to Witches
There are very good witch guides already (which I link to), and I only made this one to broaden their coverage. My aim here is to cover the material online at:
d20pfsrd
That is, I'm covering more hexes, patrons & spells. To keep the length manageable I limit much of this to "only the good stuff". E.g., the motivation to take a given patron lies in the good-to-excellent spells it offers, so let's just skip the chaff.
If you think I've overlooked something of note, maybe a spell that's not an everyday choice but that has particularly nice uses, please let me know.
Cheers,
Owl
One tiny thing - an arcane trickster wannabe can use the accomplished sneak attacker feat to cut down on the number of non-spellcasting levels in the build. Witch 3 / rogue or roguish class 1 / arcane trickster X can cast spells a full spell level ahead of the witch 3 / rogue 3 / arcane trickster X in your sample builds.
When you rate Hex Channeler ((www.d20pfsrd.com), Archives of Nethys):
Hex Channeler wrote: {. . .} Every time the hex channeler is able to learn a new hex (including major or grand hexes, but not hexes gained through the Extra Hex feat), she can instead increase her channel energy amount by 1d6. {. . .} So you can't get more than (Level/2) * d6. And using all your even-level Hexes on boosting the damage is a semi-waste, since you are giving up what makes Witches great. What Hex Channeler IS good for is for channeling with rider effects that don't depend on Channeling dice, since just taking the archetype gives you full Cleric level for Channel DC, etc. So if you want it for Command/Turn Undead or one of the rider effects that some types of Variant Channeling have (assuming you worship the right deity), then it's good for that.
For rating Ley Line Guardian, trading out your familiar can in some respects be considered a feature, not a bug, since this means you don't have to worry about your Familiar getting taken out to prevent you from preparing spells. The Hex Substitute ability Conduit Surge is rather lackluster for 2 Hexes, though.
Scarred Witch Doctor -- I really miss the pre-Errata version . . . after the Errata, it's no longer good for Gish builds, but makes otherwise conventional Half-Orc Witches overpowered (somebody must have forgotten that Half-Orcs can put their +2 anywhere). Now if you want a Witch who can't spell, you're stuck with Seducer . . . .
When you rate Winter Witch: I think that if you are playing very defensively instead of offensively -- for instance if your job is not to be an Irriseni Ice Witch but instead to keep your party (including yourself) alive under the noses of the Irriseni Ice Witches -- taking the archetype without the prestige class could actually be better than taking the prestige class.
For rating Arcane Trickster, I wouldn't rate this as being good for a Witch. Not only do you not gain more Hexes, but you also don't progress the ones you have, many of which get stronger as you level up (in Save DC if nothing else). (In contrast, Stargazer does progress your Hexes.) In addition, the Witch spell list doesn't natively have Mage Hand, so you have to invest in getting that (like the Two World Magic trait in your Ashiftah Trickster example -- and that's at the same time as you also have to invest in Magical Knack and possibly also a Campaign Trait). If you want to go Arcane Tricskter anyway, at least concentrate on Hexes that are not strongly level-dependent, and consider Vivisectionist Alchemist as a way of getting one of your d6 of Sneak Attack. It does have the disadvantage relative to Rogue of not giving you free Weapon Finesse, but it gives you free Brew Potion and Throw Anything (the latter being better than the feat version), as well as the 1st level Extracts being useful for utility, and the limited Mutagen even being potentially useful. Of the Alchemist archetypes that stack with Vivisectionist and actually change something at 1st level, Sacrament Alchemist (trades out Mutagen) could be useful even with only 1 level, if you worship the right deity (needs to offer a Domain that has a 1st level power that doesn't depend upon effective Cleric level); if you didn't want Brew Potion but want a martial weapon proficiency (especially if {your race} treats {your race name} weapons as martial weapons), Grenadier might be for you. Having said all of that, if you want an effective Arcane Tricskter (and you aren't the GM building something weird like a Divine Arcane Tricskter), Wizard is the way to go, not Witch or Sorcerer (hard to get enough skill ranks per level), and not even Arcanist (like Witch, loses too much in the way of juicy class features other than spellcasting).
Also, you should add Evangelist (www.d20pfsrd.com, Archives of Nethys). In all but the first level, this progresses all Witch class features: spellcasting, Hexes (and/or Hex Substitutes), and Familiar (or Familiar subsitute). Rules As Written, I don't think Prestigious Spellcaster works to mitigate the delay at 1st level, since it doesn't have the text "+1 level of existing spellcasting class", but some GMs might let you off the hook for that. Evangelist gives you come class features of its own, including accelerated progression of the Deific Obedience feat that you need to enter it, better hit dice, better BAB, and more skill ranks per level (6 + IntMod instead of 2 + IntMod). This means that for a Seducer Witch who wants to have enough skill ranks to do their job (since they are Charisma-based but still stuck with 2 + IntMod skill ranks per level), this prestige class is almost a must-have. It does trade out good Will Save progression for good Reflex Save progression, which is an unfavorable trade (and it sticks with bad Fortitude Save progression). It also forces you to maintain your Obedience each day or temporarily lose your powers, which depending upon the requirements of the Obedience, could be logistically challenging. So I would rate this Green to Blue for Seducer Witches, and Orange to Green for other Witches (the rating ranges take into account difficulty of meeting Obedience obligations but assume you didn't take one that is a total bomb).
avr wrote: One tiny thing - an arcane trickster wannabe can use the accomplished sneak attacker feat to cut down on the number of non-spellcasting levels in the build. Witch 3 / rogue or roguish class 1 / arcane trickster X can cast spells a full spell level ahead of the witch 3 / rogue 3 / arcane trickster X in your sample builds. Updated, thanks. Taking the additional feat to gain 2 levels of witch is certainly worthwhile.
I also changed to unchained rogue from a vanilla rogue because it grants finesse training.
UnArcaneElection,
Hex Channeler -- Thanks for the "extra hex" catch. I downgraded this to orange. Note that a witch doesn't get channeling via a deity, and so does not have access to variant channeling (without a dispensation from your DM).
Ley Line Guardian -- I downgraded this to red. Where a sorcerer gets bloodline features that are generally benefits, you lose 2 hexes for a marginal ability.
Scarred Witch Doctor -- Agreed. It's blue because it's a flat-out strong witch.
Winter Witch -- I agree. And considering the archetype by itself I rate it green.
Arcane Trickster -- Even considering your points I think I still rate it green. I agree that wizard is a stronger base arcane class, but I think the hex-strike/vanish combo makes this good if not great. That said, the BAB for any arcane trickster just hurts.
Evangelist -- I was already considering this prestige class, but just wasn't convinced that it's ... good. I'll give it a 2nd look though.
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Northern Spotted Owl wrote: UnArcaneElection,
Hex Channeler -- Thanks for the "extra hex" catch. I downgraded this to orange. Note that a witch doesn't get channeling via a deity, and so does not have access to variant channeling (without a dispensation from your DM).
In general you'd be right, but your Patron could be divine, even in 1st Edition.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Ley Line Guardian -- I downgraded this to red. Where a sorcerer gets bloodline features that are generally benefits, you lose 2 hexes for a marginal ability. I wouldn't downgrade it all the way to Red -- after all, you do get to have a Sorcerer's spells per day and not be dependent on a Familiar, while still having 9 of 11 Hexes if you get all the way to Level 20, and while still having a decent number of skill ranks per level (unlike all Sorcerers other than Sage Sorcerer). Note: For Ley Line Guardians, the normally semi-trap Human Favored Class Bonus becomes a must-have (with the possible exception of the 1st 3 levels, where it would only get you more Cantrips).
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: {. . .}
Winter Witch -- I agree. And considering the archetype by itself I rate it green.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Arcane Trickster -- Even considering your points I think I still rate it green. I agree that wizard is a stronger base arcane class, but I think the hex-strike/vanish combo makes this good if not great. That said, the BAB for any arcane trickster just hurts. Yes, and note that Hex Strike requires you to make an actual Unarmed Strike (and you need Improved Unarmed Strike), rather than just a Touch Attack. Arcane Trickster is more suited to doing Sneak Attack damage by way of Ranged Touch Attacks and Touch Attacks, for which 1/2 BAB can be good enough, whereas 1/2 BAB with Unarmed Strikes really suffers. Hex Strike would be better on a Hexcrafter Magus(*) or a Shaman, but even then, it only works for one Hex for each instances of Hex Strike you have taken, making it mercilessly feat-intensive.
(*)Who can get a Magus Arcana at 9th level that makes ALL melee attacks resolve as Touch Attacks. Then again, Arcane Trickster and the great majority of other prestige classes (except Evangelist) are bad choices for a Magus or any other 6/9 caster.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Evangelist -- I was already considering this prestige class, but just wasn't convinced that it's ... good. I'll give it a 2nd look though. Very much going to depend upon which particular Deific Obedience you have to keep up. I'll even go a step further and amend my rating above to a spread of 3 steps: Red to Green for most Witch Evangelists, and Orange to Blue for Seducer Witch Evangelists. Gets a bit better if your GM will let you use Prestigious Spellcaster with it, even though Rules As Written the text doesn't match up.
An arcane trickster making a single attack each round while invisible is going to have accuracy enough even with half BAB. If in a game with a lot of way-over CR enemies then the strength patron for the divine favor spell is an option (BTW: orange not red for that patron for the cost-effective personal buffs). Whether 1d3+(1/2 level)d6+bonuses on that single attack is enough damage is another matter. Rogues usually want to make multiple attacks for good reason. Throwing an evil eye on the target hit for a 1-round penalty even if the target makes their save is the saving grace there.
Evangelist never really impressed me. Adding a point or two to a witches BAB by late levels isn't going to do a lot, and a witch already is a full caster so the boons add breadth rather than strength. Mystery cultist could be interesting for a seducer witch perhaps.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Northern Spotted Owl wrote: UnArcaneElection,
Hex Channeler -- Thanks for the "extra hex" catch. I downgraded this to orange. Note that a witch doesn't get channeling via a deity, and so does not have access to variant channeling (without a dispensation from your DM).
In general you'd be right, but your Patron could be divine, even in 1st Edition. I get where you're going here, but witches are also described as unaware, at least initially, of who their patron even is. I'll add a note though. Thanks.
Depending how you read the Season Witch archetype, you get an extra hex, not lock in your first hex. If your DM says extra hex, it's blue.
UnArcane,
Thanks for pointing out that a hex strike must be an unarmed attack, not a touch attack. I think that leaves Arcane Trickster barely green, with a modified write-up.
As for the Evangelist, I may dig through all of those details at some later point, but for now I'm going to have to stay with: here are a couple guides.
Cheers.
avr wrote: An arcane trickster making a single attack each round while invisible is going to have accuracy enough even with half BAB. If in a game with a lot of way-over CR enemies then the strength patron for the divine favor spell is an option (BTW: orange not red for that patron for the cost-effective personal buffs). Whether 1d3+(1/2 level)d6+bonuses on that single attack is enough damage is another matter. Rogues usually want to make multiple attacks for good reason. Throwing an evil eye on the target hit for a 1-round penalty even if the target makes their save is the saving grace there.
Evangelist never really impressed me. Adding a point or two to a witches BAB by late levels isn't going to do a lot, and a witch already is a full caster so the boons add breadth rather than strength. Mystery cultist could be interesting for a seducer witch perhaps.
I think we're broadly in agreement. Let me know if there's anything you think I should tighten up in my write-up.
Cheers.
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pad300 wrote: Depending how you read the Season Witch archetype, you get an extra hex, not lock in your first hex. If your DM says extra hex, it's blue. I hadn't considered that reading. You are right that the wording is entirely open to the interpretation that this is an additional "bonus hex".
This Paizo designer nixes the idea though,
Mark Seifter
Cheers.
avr wrote: An arcane trickster making a single attack each round while invisible is going to have accuracy enough even with half BAB. If in a game with a lot of way-over CR enemies then the strength patron for the divine favor spell is an option (BTW: orange not red for that patron for the cost-effective personal buffs). {. . .} Devotion Patron gets this as well; it doesn't get the upgraded version (Divine Power), but some of the other higher level spells it gets may fit together better with an Arcane Trickster's abilities than the higher-level spells of Strength (until you get all the way to 9th level spells, and then Shapechange tilts the balance back in favor of Strength). Both of these are in the guide, and while I'd prefer Devotion, I think Strength deserves a rating better than Red, and its list of good spells is incomplete anyway, including Divine Favor.
UnArcaneElection wrote: avr wrote: An arcane trickster making a single attack each round while invisible is going to have accuracy enough even with half BAB. If in a game with a lot of way-over CR enemies then the strength patron for the divine favor spell is an option (BTW: orange not red for that patron for the cost-effective personal buffs). {. . .} Devotion Patron gets this as well; it doesn't get the upgraded version (Divine Power), but some of the other higher level spells it gets may fit together better with an Arcane Trickster's abilities than the higher-level spells of Strength (until you get all the way to 9th level spells, and then Shapechange tilts the balance back in favor of Strength). Both of these are in the guide, and while I'd prefer Devotion, I think Strength deserves a rating better than Red, and its list of good spells is incomplete anyway, including Divine Favor.
I upgraded it and added spells that I'd otherwise skipped because they're poor choices for most witches: giant form, etc. I also added a note that "personal" spells can be cast on your familiar, which is fun.
Races:
Ratfolk are missing, their FCB to increase the range of hexes is quite useful, especially for witches that like to keep out of range of melee foes. Samsaran is also good for MPL.
Feats:
Missing Ability Focus for upping DCs of hexes, key for things like slumber. Share spells isn't that useful for you, Improved Share Spells is the feat you're looking for here (that's the one that lets you split duration between you and your familiar). Also <Insert rest of crafting feats> <Insert metamagic feats> baam, done.
Familiars:
You should add Rhamphorhynchus as it's a tiny flying familiar that adds +4 to initiative. Rabbits, Arctic Hares, and Dodos also provide a +4 to initiative. Ioun Wyrds are more unique in that they give a natural armor bonus, but are also a construct, meaning it's a nice base familiar to slap a template on with improved familiar.
Hexes:
Gift of consumption is also nice in that you can use it as a sort of better share spells for buffs that target fortitude (bestow planar infusion, deathless, delay poison, etc).
Healing is oj a best, because it's 1/day, which means it only heals a significant amount for your party between combats at levels 1-3 and if your GM doesn't use retraining, or you lack the necessary downtime to do so, you're stuck with a underwhelming hex.
Evil eye and slumber fall off hard at higher levels and against certain types of enemies who are immune to mind-affecting effects.
Leshy summoning gives alright summons, but what makes it nice is that it gives you a discount on growing leshies, and lets you always succeed at doing so.
Patrons:
Thorns should be green, solely for having wall of thorns.
Transformation is far better when its spells are utilized via share spells on your familiar, but even then it's not that good for a witch. You're much better off hanging in the backline and casting spells than trying to be a worse druid. Also the 18th level spell is shapechange, not transformation (which would be a terrible spell for it to grant).
Spells:
Mudball is a great level 1 spell that stays useful throughout your career, as long as you hit the enemy it blinds them, causing for great synergy with your party members as long as they go before the enemy shakes it off.
Trap the Soul and Parasitic Soul are always nice. Demand is overrated.
Archetypes:
With Invoker, you may want to pick up a singular instance of extra hex, but it's not really necessary, I'll note that your guide doesn't even rate 10 hexes as blue.
I would blue Protective Luck Hex. On its own, it doesn’t do much, but it is cackleable, which is a big boost, and soothsayerable, at which point you are more likely to find it banned than insufficiently effective.
The Shadowbound Patron is underplayed in my opionion. Dazzled is not important for a full caster, and a Witch does not have enough offensive spells to make use of it.
A bonus for all the Special Patrons is that it gives you a Hex at level 1, very useful if your archetype trades it away and you wanted to take Extra Hex
willuwontu wrote: Archetypes:
With Invoker, you may want to pick up a singular instance of extra hex, but it's not really necessary, I'll note that your guide doesn't even rate 10 hexes as blue.
The strength of the Invoker class is that it stacks with Ashiftah. I have a scary Gnome (+1/6 Hex) Witch that uses that combination.
@ Northern Spotted Owl on the topic of the Ashiftah, Ghostwalk also applies to Cackle if you step up cackle to a standard action
^I wonder how Shadowbound interacts with White-Haired Witch? Would this really enable putting a few Hexes back in usefully, or would they all be stuck at 1st level?
willuwontu wrote: Races:
Ratfolk are missing, their FCB to increase the range of hexes is quite useful, especially for witches that like to keep out of range of melee foes. Samsaran is also good for MPL.
Feats:
Missing Ability Focus for upping DCs of hexes, key for things like slumber. Share spells isn't that useful for you, Improved Share Spells is the feat you're looking for here (that's the one that lets you split duration between you and your familiar). Also <Insert rest of crafting feats> <Insert metamagic feats> baam, done.
Familiars:
You should add Rhamphorhynchus as it's a tiny flying familiar that adds +4 to initiative. Rabbits, Arctic Hares, and Dodos also provide a +4 to initiative. Ioun Wyrds are more unique in that they give a natural armor bonus, but are also a construct, meaning it's a nice base familiar to slap a template on with improved familiar.
Hexes:
Gift of consumption is also nice in that you can use it as a sort of better share spells for buffs that target fortitude (bestow planar infusion, deathless, delay poison, etc).
Healing is oj a best, because it's 1/day, which means it only heals a significant amount for your party between combats at levels 1-3 and if your GM doesn't use retraining, or you lack the necessary downtime to do so, you're stuck with a underwhelming hex.
Evil eye and slumber fall off hard at higher levels and against certain types of enemies who are immune to mind-affecting effects.
Leshy summoning gives alright summons, but what makes it nice is that it gives you a discount on growing leshies, and lets you always succeed at doing so.
Patrons:
Thorns should be green, solely for having wall of
...
I agree with a number of your comments, thanks for some thoughtful feedback.
Races
Ratfolk -- added
Goblins too since you mention mudball.
Feats
I'm leaving off ability focus, since it's a GM house rule to allow that for player characters. And I removed share spells, thanks.
I'm on the fence wrt crafting, since there's really nothing witch-specific there, apart from scrolls.
And I'll likely add meta-magic before too long here. It's on my list.
Familiars
I added rabbits/arctic hares, but skipped the lil' pterodactyl & dodo since their bonuses aren't listed online (but please call out if you have a source...).
Hexes
Gift of consumption -- The text reads, "an effect that requires her to attempt a Fortitude save," and I don't see how that applies to beneficial spells.
Leshy summoning -- I'm not familiar enough with growing leshies to have a useful rating here. I'll set that aside as a possible future investigation.
Patrons
And I upgraded the thorns patron, purely because a good wall spell is a solid addition to the witch's list.
Lelomenia wrote: I would blue Protective Luck Hex. On its own, it doesn’t do much, but it is cackleable, which is a big boost, and soothsayerable, at which point you are more likely to find it banned than insufficiently effective. I get what you're saying about protective luck, but I'm not sure it's quite top-tier. I did add it to the writeup for soothsayer.
Minigiant wrote: The Shadowbound Patron is underplayed in my opionion. Dazzled is not important for a full caster, and a Witch does not have enough offensive spells to make use of it.
A bonus for all the Special Patrons is that it gives you a Hex at level 1, very useful if your archetype trades it away and you wanted to take Extra Hex
willuwontu wrote: Archetypes:
With Invoker, you may want to pick up a singular instance of extra hex, but it's not really necessary, I'll note that your guide doesn't even rate 10 hexes as blue.
The strength of the Invoker class is that it stacks with Ashiftah. I have a scary Gnome (+1/6 Hex) Witch that uses that combination.
@ Northern Spotted Owl on the topic of the Ashiftah, Ghostwalk also applies to Cackle if you step up cackle to a standard action
Shadowbound -- I get what you're saying, but I think the ongoing hassle of light-blindness isn't worth the disguise hex. Most players are better off with the shadow patron.
Invoker/Ashiftah -- Tell me more about how they stack. I'm missing something here...
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^I wonder how Shadowbound interacts with White-Haired Witch? Would this really enable putting a few Hexes back in usefully, or would they all be stuck at 1st level?
That's an interesting thought. I like the idea of the white-haired witch enough that I'm certainly on board with anything that makes her more playable.
What would it take to make her playable? Full int-as-str, as we have with prehensile hair? Access to the feat extra hex? Better touch spells?
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: ^I wonder how Shadowbound interacts with White-Haired Witch? Would this really enable putting a few Hexes back in usefully, or would they all be stuck at 1st level?
That's an interesting thought. I like the idea of the white-haired witch enough that I'm certainly on board with anything that makes her more playable.
What would it take to make her playable? Full int-as-str, as we have with prehensile hair? Access to the feat extra hex? Better touch spells? Reading through the White-Haired Witch, the key line is "This ability replaces hex." And the class feature "hex" is the one that allows them to gain hexes at specified levels.
Looking at the feat Extra Hex, we see, "Prerequisites: Hex class feature."
Taken together, I read these to mean that you would: 1. have this one specific hex from your special patron, 2. however you still do not have the class feature hex and so do not qualify for the feat extra hex. In other words, it seems that while you have a particular hex, you do not have the class feature "hex".
That said, the hexes specify increased function at particular witch levels. So I would certainly give the charm hex a boost when our white-haired witch gains 8th level.
^That's what I was afraid of, but unfortunately I have to say it sounds reasonable. Although that means that it's impossible to make White-Haired Witch playable beyond the early levels . . . but you could make a hypothetical White-Haired Magus archetype playable.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Familiars
I added rabbits/arctic hares, but skipped the lil' pterodactyl & dodo since their bonuses aren't listed online (but please call out if you have a source...).
Hexes
Gift of consumption -- The text reads, "an effect that requires her to attempt a Fortitude save," and I don't see how that applies to beneficial spells.
Re: Familiars
Page 191 of ultimate wilderness for the familiar bonuses (or this page on AoN).
Re: Hexes
Gift of Consumption (Su): The witch curses a creature to share any effects that target her vitality. Whenever the witch is exposed to an effect that requires her to attempt a Fortitude save, as an immediate action she can curse a creature within 30 feet to share the effect. The hexed creature must also attempt a Fortitude save at the same DC as the witch’s, and on a failure it is subject to the same effects as the witch. Regardless of the outcome of the saving throw, the creature can’t be targeted by this hex again for 1 day. This hex does not function with effects that require additional types of saves, such as phantasmal killer. Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless) Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless) etc.
Since they're spells that have a fort saving throw, you can use gift of consumption when you cast them on yourself to also pass the spell onto an ally as well, thereby saving yourself a spell slot while doing buffs.
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^That's what I was afraid of, but unfortunately I have to say it sounds reasonable. Although that means that it's impossible to make White-Haired Witch playable beyond the early levels . . . but you could make a hypothetical White-Haired Magus archetype playable.
Google for the White-Haired Witch 2/Hexcrafter N build called "the defiler".
willuwontu wrote: Re: Familiars
Page 191 of ultimate wilderness for the familiar bonuses (or this page on AoN).
Thanks, I added a few more familiars that grant an initiative bonus.
In terms of Gift of Consumption, the distinction I'm thinking of hinges on the word "requires".
Quote: Whenever the witch is exposed to an effect that requires her to attempt a Fortitude save,... And then I consider that in light of the description of "harmless" effects.
Quote: The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires. Since the witch "can attempt a saving throw if it desires" I just don't consider this the same as "an effect that requires her to attempt a fortitude save." But you or your DM may of course disagree. Cheers.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: ^That's what I was afraid of, but unfortunately I have to say it sounds reasonable. Although that means that it's impossible to make White-Haired Witch playable beyond the early levels . . . but you could make a hypothetical White-Haired Magus archetype playable.
Google for the White-Haired Witch 2/Hexcrafter N build called "the defiler". Found it in this guide. Definitely worth another look, although the Prehensile Hair Hex seems mostly redundant with the White Hair class feature (apart from adding a bit of extra Reach). Of course, this is only using the 1st 2 levels of White-Haired Witch, and all the rest Magus, which backs up my point that White-Haired Witch should have actually been a Magus archetype.
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Found it in this guide. Definitely worth another look, although the Prehensile Hair Hex seems mostly redundant with the White Hair class feature (apart from adding a bit of extra Reach). Of course, this is only using the 1st 2 levels of White-Haired Witch, and all the rest Magus, which backs up my point that White-Haired Witch should have actually been a Magus archetype.
That sounds right to me. Having 9th level spells & reach-range grappling is just an odd combination. You simply don't want to be that close with your mediocre HP & AC.
The only other seemingly viable white-haired witch option I've seen is martial 1/witch 5/eldritch knight 10/witch 4
Where the martial options I've run across are: fighter, sohei monk, and salamander bloodrager. But I haven't investigated this very closely at all.
^Interesting thought -- I haven't looked closely either at that either, but I do know these 4 considerations off the bat: •You need to get Mage Hand onto your spell list (it isn't on the Witch Spell list);
•If you're going to go 5 levels of Witch before starting Eldritch Knight, you might as well go 6, which gets you Pull, and doesn't hurt your Base Attack Bonus (since 5 levels of Witch rounds down to +2 BAB, adding 1 more gets you to +3 BAB, stacking with whatever else you have), and only very slightly hurts your hit points;
•Unless you invest in the rather bad Arcane Armor Training/Mastery, self-defense will be painful;
•Until you get to Witch 8, your Reach will be only 10 feet; better make sure your GM is onboard with letting that grow like a Reach weapon would grow if you Enlarge yourself or Polymorph to a Large (or larger) form.
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^Interesting thought -- I haven't looked closely either at that either, but I do know these 4 considerations off the bat:•You need to get Mage Hand onto your spell list (it isn't on the Witch Spell list);
•If you're going to go 5 levels of Witch before starting Eldritch Knight, you might as well go 6, which gets you Pull, and doesn't hurt your Base Attack Bonus (since 5 levels of Witch rounds down to +2 BAB, adding 1 more gets you to +3 BAB, stacking with whatever else you have), and only very slightly hurts your hit points;
•Unless you invest in the rather bad Arcane Armor Training/Mastery, self-defense will be painful;
•Until you get to Witch 8, your Reach will be only 10 feet; better make sure your GM is onboard with letting that grow like a Reach weapon would grow if you Enlarge yourself or Polymorph to a Large (or larger) form.
Yup. You'd need the trait magical talent for mage hand. And good call on witch 6 rather than 5.
Like I said, I haven't investigated this properly, but it is a build I ran across and filed away as "not obviously terrible." Personally, I'd probably just play a goliath druid and call it a day.
. . . Or play a Hexcrafter Magus (the Hexcrafter part of this 2-in-1 build), and eventually use Monstrous Physique to get your Reach, but maybe also replace one of the multitude of early debuffing Hexes with Prehensile Hair, although that's semi-redundant with the Whip (on the other hand, then you could bag the Whip feats and proficiency in favor of a weapon with a better Critical range).
appears to be missing the Mirror Witch archetype
zook1shoe wrote: appears to be missing the Mirror Witch archetype I had been going through the material listed on d20PFSRC.com.
But this is sufficient. I'll give it a look & think it through.
aonprd
Are there any particularly interesting interactions or such I should pay attention to?
Nah, the mirror witch isn't especially interesting if you're not into Golarion lore. Tho' a mirror witch at late levels has some neat tricks with scrying, and if they're willing to spend weeks trying they can even cast some offensive spells remotely.
I've had this character concept for a Mirror Witch who is actually from modern Earth(*), and whose cell phone gets hacked by a mysterious entity . . . .
(*)In turn inspired by Poldaran's campaign journals.
UnArcaneElection wrote: I've had this character concept for a Mirror Witch who is actually from modern Earth(*), and whose cell phone gets hacked by a mysterious entity . . . .
(*)In turn inspired by Poldaran's campaign journals.
I added the mirror witch.
She doesn't look particularly over-powered, but I do think the archetype is generally a positive. Cryptic omen/greater omens gives you +2 to a key saving throw per day per odd level. By 7th level, with 4 uses/day this is nearly as good as having +2 to each of your saving throws. And that would take 3 feats (iron will, etc).
Add in augury, clairvoyance, scrying & mirror magic and you don't have much to complain about. The biggest drawback here is that you lose access to improved familiar.
Scarred Witch Doctor shouldn't say Half-Orc only in the description -- it's actually Orc, which means Half-Orcs can also use it if you don't have some rule preventing Half-{whatever} from accessing the classes/etc. of {whatever} (I think 1st Edition PFS at least used to have this rule). After the errata where Paizo decided you couldn't have a Witch who can't spell (before they came out with Seducer), it became only okay for Orc, although that's still something since the Int penalty otherwise makes Orc essentially unusable for Witch (but before the errata it was great, while the errata made Half-Orc Witches even more powerful).
UnArcaneElection wrote: Scarred Witch Doctor shouldn't say Half-Orc only in the description -- it's actually Orc, which means Half-Orcs can also use it if you don't have some rule preventing Half-{whatever} from accessing the classes/etc. of {whatever} (I think 1st Edition PFS at least used to have this rule). After the errata where Paizo decided you couldn't have a Witch who can't spell (before they came out with Seducer), it became only okay for Orc, although that's still something since the Int penalty otherwise makes Orc essentially unusable for Witch (but before the errata it was great, while the errata made Half-Orc Witches even more powerful).
Thanks, I'll clarify that. After a bit of searching I found the FAQ where Paizo indicates:
"Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements)."
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qf9
Cheers.
^PFS 1st Edition didn't use all the same FAQs/Errata that 1st Edition in general did, and had some of its own. The above rule was one of the differences, if I recall correctly (I didn't actually play PFS, but tried to keep up with some of its more prominent rules to be able to make PFS-legal versions of builds).
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^PFS 1st Edition didn't use all the same FAQs/Errata that 1st Edition in general did, and had some of its own. The above rule was one of the differences, if I recall correctly (I didn't actually play PFS, but tried to keep up with some of its more prominent rules to be able to make PFS-legal versions of builds).
Thanks. I don't know enough about these distinctions to properly note any non-PFS options. Though it looks to me (i.e. I googled it a bit, and don't really know what I'm talking about) as though PFS is all on 2nd edition now. If so I suppose I won't worry too much about the PFS rule differences.
^That's probably right. But still worth noting the history, since we note (and grieve about) the Scarred Witch Doctor Errata.
willuwontu wrote: Races:
Feats:
Also <Insert rest of crafting feats> <Insert metamagic feats> baam, done.
I added metamagic feats. No surprises: bouncing, quicken, reach, and perhaps persistent are the winners.
Metamagic Feats: If you want to get some battlefield control out of your blasts, Dazing Spell is good to have. Works better if you have the Elements Patron to get more of the right spells to do this with.
Other Feats: Split Major Hex -- for the same reasons you want Split Hex, but on more powerful Hexes.
i'm surprised that the Samsaran and Changeling are not on the race list.
^You reminded me to look again at Races.
Races: Hafling: Aside from the already-mentioned Jinx and associated feats (which can end up taking more feat investment than you can really afford), the Creepy Doll alternate racial trait lets you Intimidate any size of creature without penalty. If you invest in Intimidate (potentially including the Bruising Intellect trait) to debuff enemies prior to Hexing (or enspelling) them, the Shaken debuff could more than make up for not having an Intelligence bonus. Even with the Witchborn alternate racial trait or the Winter-Born heritage, Changelings unfortunately are just okay Witches (even with the Dreamweaver archetype).
UnArcaneElection wrote: Metamagic Feats: If you want to get some battlefield control out of your blasts, Dazing Spell is good to have. Works better if you have the Elements Patron to get more of the right spells to do this with.
Other Feats: Split Major Hex -- for the same reasons you want Split Hex, but on more powerful Hexes.
I had dazing & elements patron on the list, but then looked at 6th level dazing fireballs (the only good direct-damage area effect) and thought -- is this really where a witch is going to spend a feat? But I suppose that if you take the elements patron it's not exactly a bad choice. I'll add it back.
And I'd missed Split Major Hex completely. Looking now. Thanks.
Update -- In the dazing spell write-up I note the attractive cost of a lesser dazing rod. Consider a 13th level witch, one who 6th level spell slots for a dazing fireball. I think a 14,000 gp investment to get that spell slot back for an actual 6th level spell is pretty attractive.
Also consider Widen Spell. This is normally considered bad due to its cost, but if you are going to be fighting armies of things like Giants out in the open (think Giantslayer or parts of Rise of the Runelords), you might be glad to have it. It isn't just for blasts, but also for battlefield control staples like Black Tentacles; if you do use it for a blast but don't want to specialize in blasting, spells like Cone of Cold (which is on the Witch spell list regardless of Patron) actually start to get a decent range and area with it.
A caution about Bouncing Spell: Be careful of your Swift Action economy when using this.
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^You reminded me to look again at Races.
Races: Hafling: Aside from the already-mentioned Jinx and associated feats (which can end up taking more feat investment than you can really afford), the Creepy Doll alternate racial trait lets you Intimidate any size of creature without penalty. If you invest in Intimidate (potentially including the Bruising Intellect trait) to debuff enemies prior to Hexing (or enspelling) them, the Shaken debuff could more than make up for not having an Intelligence bonus. Even with the Witchborn alternate racial trait or the Winter-Born heritage, Changelings unfortunately are just okay Witches (even with the Dreamweaver archetype).
Re: halflings. I feel like each of these options requires a feat that you'd rather spend on extra hex, at least early on.
Compare: halfling jinx, evil eye & malicious eye
With: (another trait...), evil eye & misfortune
Or compare: creepy doll & bruising intellect
With: (another trait) & extra hex
These halfling witches somewhat sub-optimal, and must be chosen because you want to play that character.
zook1shoe wrote: i'm surprised that the Samsaran and Changeling are not on the race list. I added ...
changelings -- only okay
samsarans -- pretty terrific with mystic past life, except I'd disallow those shenanigans. Adding haste, wall of stone, permanency, etc undermines the basic balance of the witch: You get hexes, but a more limited spell list.
Edit -- Actually I'd allow permanency, that adds interesting utility without overpowering the witch. For me I suppose it depends on which spells you're adding and whether you're just making a pure play for raw power.
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