Noted.
To give some feedback, I think you're underrating Rags to Riches a little bit. It also increases the enhancement bonus of an object by 1, so it's frequently used to increase a weapon, armor, or shield's bonus in addition to the skill bonuses and improved object durability. I also think you should mention Battlepot Cauldron, Poisoner's Gloves and Accelerated Drinker for the Brewkeeper recommendation. Action economy is the selling point and that's a big part of how you get it. Note that you could attack yourself or allies with those first two items.
As for the prestige class recommendations, I understand Agent of the Grave being a weird one. I wasn't recommending that this turn into some kind of necromancy guide. I just felt it was pointing out on account of necromancer witch being a real theme some people may be into, and if you want to lean into that theme all the way... then the Agent of the Grave prestige class is probably of interest.
Arcane Archer is certainly an oddity. It is a working build, but I mainly mentioned that because the Arcane Trickster was also listed and it's a handy trick.
Cyphermage, however, is worth listing in my view. You only need 1 level and with the Insightful Scroll feature, once per day you can cast a spell from a scroll with basically your spell DC. It really expands what you can do with scrolls and if you use Pragmatic Activator you can use scrolls that are not even on your spell list to affect people.
Ring of Spell Storing is something your familiar can probably use. You can also use the Familiar Spell metamagic, which is kinda ban-worthy imo for being a superior Quicken Spell with a lower cost. And on the subject of feats, many GMs will also let you use the Ability Focus feat to raise the DC of a single specific hex.
And on the subject of items, Shard of Winter, Belt of Spirit Vines, Hand of Glory, and Strand of Prayer Beads are worth noting, in my view.
As for spells, Death Knell, Skinsend, Aura Sight (it's all the detect [alignment] spells rolled into one, and the Witch can't even cast any of those), Countless Eyes (immunity to flanking can be quite handy against rogue-like foes), Greater False Life, Deathless (this spell is likely to be banned, in all honesty), Phantasmal Killer, and Share Shape (if you use this with Beastspeak you can just cast spells while in the form of a monkey, for instance).
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Joynt Jezebel wrote: I recall a post on another thread, which I agree with, to the effect that the very best class features were-
1) Full casting.
2) A Summoner's Eidolon and
3) A Witch's hexes.
Agreed. I see a witch as a full caster with hexes, but overall a somewhat weaker spell list. Anything that takes away your hexes (beyond perhaps a 1 level dip) must either be very good indeed, or should nudge you toward another class. Yes.
Hexes, most of them only do 1 at a time and at short range. But if the problem can be solved that way hexes just rule.
I like to reserve my spell slots for problems your hexes won't solve e.g. area affect spells. And because you can solve so many problems with hexes, you are more likely to have room for spells like dispel magic, which you don't always need, but when you do you really need it.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: And because you can solve so many problems with hexes, you are more likely to have room for spells like dispel magic, which you don't always need, but when you do you really need it. Optimal spell allocation for a witch:
1. Vomit swarm
2. 50% area effect: web, sleet storm, confusion, etc
3. 50% utility
Very sensible.
Burning Hands is also often a good choice. It can do in swarms and do some area of effect damage.
Another area where Witches shine is when you are an overworked spellcaster, due to a small number of players or having an oddly constituted party, for example there are 6 of you, a Ninja, a Rogue and 3 melee specialists and a Witch.
Your spells last better due to hexes and if you give a Witch a wand of CLW you have a poor man's cleric.
^ . . . And if you have the Healing Patron, you're not even so poor. And the Herb Witch archetype complements this. So does the Hex Channeler archetype to a lesser degree if you concentrate on rider effects instead of d6s (but you can't take both archetypes, and in most cases Herb Witch is going to be better, the obvious exception being if you're Knee Deep in the Dead). Hedge Witch is also complementary to the Healing Patron, and is compatible with Herb Witch or Hex Channeler (again not both at once).
@UnArcaneElection Quite true. The only thing I disagree with is Hex Channeler. I dislike the archetype. If you want to channel energy you should play a cleric, not a witch when it costs you your hexes.
Tom Sampson wrote: Noted.
To give some feedback, I think you're underrating Rags to Riches a little bit. It also increases the enhancement bonus of an object by 1, so it's frequently used to increase a weapon, armor, or shield's bonus in addition to the skill bonuses and improved object durability. I also think you should mention Battlepot Cauldron, Poisoner's Gloves and Accelerated Drinker for the Brewkeeper recommendation. Action economy is the selling point and that's a big part of how you get it. Note that you could attack yourself or allies with those first two items.
As for the prestige class recommendations, I understand Agent of the Grave being a weird one. I wasn't recommending that this turn into some kind of necromancy guide. I just felt it was pointing out on account of necromancer witch being a real theme some people may be into, and if you want to lean into that theme all the way... then the Agent of the Grave prestige class is probably of interest.
Arcane Archer is certainly an oddity. It is a working build, but I mainly mentioned that because the Arcane Trickster was also listed and it's a handy trick.
Cyphermage, however, is worth listing in my view. You only need 1 level and with the Insightful Scroll feature, once per day you can cast a spell from a scroll with basically your spell DC. It really expands what you can do with scrolls and if you use Pragmatic Activator you can use scrolls that are not even on your spell...
I'll respond to your items individually. Thanks again for the time to call out these details.
Rags to Riches -- Increasing a +2 sword or armor to +3 is solid, but a bit unexciting for a 4th level spell.
Brewkeeper -- I think players will just distribute the potions to their party. The witch's 1/2 BAB doesn't work as well with the battlepot cauldron or poisoner's gloves as some other classes.
Agent of the Grave -- Added, with a brief summary.
Arcane Trickster -- Downgraded
Cyphermage -- Also added.
Ring of Spell Storing is already on the list. Most familiars can't cast magic (but I do love the faerie dragon), but I'll leave equipment for familiars off the list. Hmm. I saw a guide or write-up once. Maybe I'll try to find that and link to it.
Familiar Spell -- This is terrific metamagic for a witch. Thanks!
Ability Focus -- This isn't a PC feat, so I can't recommend it even if your DM allows PCs to take it.
Shard of Winter -- Great item for a Winter Witch.
Belt of Spirit Vines -- Added
Hand of Glory -- Already on the list
Strand of Prayer Beads -- The witch is an arcane caster, and this is for a divine caster.
Death Knell -- Hard to use reliably, but added.
Skin Send -- Wildly dangerous and has limited utility. I'm not saying it's never useful, but to me it fall under the broad swath of spells that are available but not worth calling out.
Aura Sight, Countless Eyes, Greater False Life -- Added, thanks
Deathless -- Hard to use at rounds/level, outside of using it with Spite.
Phantasmal Killer -- You need to get past a spell resistance (when relevant), a will save, and then a fort save. I think that's to inconsistent to recommend.
Share Shape -- This would be an amazing spell if it worked with an Improved Familiar. I still like it. Thanks.
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^ . . . And if you have the Healing Patron, you're not even so poor. And the Herb Witch archetype complements this. So does the Hex Channeler archetype to a lesser degree if you concentrate on rider effects instead of d6s (but you can't take both archetypes, and in most cases Herb Witch is going to be better, the obvious exception being if you're Knee Deep in the Dead). Hedge Witch is also complementary to the Healing Patron, and is compatible with Herb Witch or Hex Channeler (again not both at once).
Since I have the doc open, I added brief sections on party roles for a witch: Control, Healing, Buffing, Debuffing & Blasting. Are there others I'm neglecting? You're a full caster, with all that means (divination, teleport, lots of tools in your kit).
Mostly this is to pull together the key threads, as you mention for healing, without having them spread across the guide.
@Northern Spotted Owl
I believe I have found a [rare] error in your guide. It is from the section on roles, specifically buffing and the section bolded.
I also copied the rules for Accursed Hex, again with the relevant section highlighted. You don't get a save against Fortune, so that Hex is not one of those that can benefit from Accursed Hex.
The use of Soothsayer and Fortune Hex on a character wielding a weapon with a high crit range works fine as far as I can see, it's just the addition of Accursed Hex which I don't think works.
"Buffing
A witch must specifically choose her hexes to be effective at buffing. While you have a few good spells (heroism, etc) for buffing, the key here lies in a few hexes:
Protective Luck, Soothsayer (and Cackle) – Protective Luck is not limited to 1/day/target, and Soothsayer allows it to be applied in advance.
Fortune & Accursed Hex – Take Fortune after the above suite. A weapon with a high crit range (18-20), the feat improved critical, and the Fortune hex will get a critical success on half of its attacks. With Accursed Hex to apply it 2/day, Soothsayer to apply it in advance, and Cackle to sustain it through an encounter, this is a massive buff."
"Accursed Hex
You can make a second attempt at failed hexes.
Prerequisites: Hex class feature
Benefit: When you target a creature with a hex that cannot target the same creature more than once per day, and that creature succeeds at its saving throw against the hex’s effect, you can target the creature with the same hex a second time before the end of your next turn. If the second attempt fails, you can make no further attempts to target that creature with the same hex for 1 day.
Normal: You can only target a creature with these hexes once per day."
Joynt Jezebel wrote: @Northern Spotted Owl
I believe I have found a [rare] error in your guide. It is from the section on roles, specifically buffing and the section bolded.
I also copied the rules for Accursed Hex, again with the relevant section highlighted. You don't get a save against Fortune, so that Hex is not one of those that can benefit from Accursed Hex.
The use of Soothsayer and Fortune Hex on a character wielding a weapon with a high crit range works fine as far as I can see, it's just the addition of Accursed Hex which I don't think works.
"Buffing
A witch must specifically choose her hexes to be effective at buffing. While you have a few good spells (heroism, etc) for buffing, the key here lies in a few hexes:
Protective Luck, Soothsayer (and Cackle) – Protective Luck is not limited to 1/day/target, and Soothsayer allows it to be applied in advance.
Fortune & Accursed Hex – Take Fortune after the above suite. A weapon with a high crit range (18-20), the feat improved critical, and the Fortune hex will get a critical success on half of its attacks. With Accursed Hex to apply it 2/day, Soothsayer to apply it in advance, and Cackle to sustain it through an encounter, this is a massive buff."
"Accursed Hex
You can make a second attempt at failed hexes.
Prerequisites: Hex class feature
Benefit: When you target a creature with a hex that cannot target the same creature more than once per day, and that creature succeeds at its saving throw against the hex’s effect, you can target the creature with the same hex a second time before the end of your next turn. If the second attempt fails, you can make no further attempts to target that creature with the same hex for 1 day.
Normal: You can only target a creature with these hexes once per day."
You are correct. Thanks for catching that!
Fixed.
Just to give a quick reply to the above:
Agent of the Grave: I'd just bring up Prestigious Spellcaster here.
Cyphermage: I'm surprised you mentioned the option that uses full caster level (Enhanced Scroll) instead of the one that lets you use basically your spell DC (Insightful Scroll). If you really want, you can just scribe or purchase a scroll at a higher-than-minimum caster level. It's just more expensive.
Brewkeeper: The Battlepot Cauldron is really just an item for allies, yes. But when it comes to Poisoner's Gloves, you can already use two-weapon fighting without any feat. The feat only reduces the penalties. Since you are presumably attacking yourself (this will trigger Spite, by the way, but you can use that for another buff) or a willing ally, the attack should be an automatic success anyway and apply two draughts. If your familiar has hands, it can use it as well (and even without hands a familiar can smear a single draught on someone). Another point regarding the Brewkeeper is that your entire party can just drink a lot of draughts right before combat thanks to the fact that no one will hear you drinking the same way they would hear you casting spells.
Skin Send: This spell explicitly bestows upon you construct type, traits, and immunities (including immunity to mind-affecting effects, fortitude saves that don't apply to objects, death effects, necromancy effects, and much more). It's crazy. You shouldn't underestimate that. You can also self-heal with Infernal Healing or Celestial Healing spells (or Make Whole if someone has that).
Phantasmal Killer: It's awkward to use normally, but if you have the Shadow patron then you probably have Spell Focus (illusion), Greater Spell Focus (illusion), Persistent Spell, and possibly more, and that means Phantasmal Killer becomes much stronger.
Debilitating Pain and Mass Debilitating Pain should probably also get listed. Dazing someone for a round on a successful saving throw unless they have Stalwart is already really good and if they fail then they're really going to have it.
And I'd like to add the following:
On the subject of races, I think the Elves' Keeper of Secrets (raises the DC of enchantment spells used on humanoids by 1) and Half-Orc's Projection (spells with the fear or pain descriptor, like Debilitating Pain, Fear, or Phantasmal Killer, have their DCs raised by 1) should also be mentioned. And there are two Tiefling items I'd previously overlooked: Fiendgore Unguent gives a +1 circumstance bonus to the DC of all spells with the fear descriptor that they cast for a minute, but it's a full-round action to apply. But if you can put it on before combat or just have your familiar apply it to you, it's still handy. And the Halo of Inner Calm gives a good-aligned Tiefling a +2 sacred bonus to all saving throws and some other stuff.
Also, elves and half-elves can cast Blend, so you should probably list and mention that, and I think that's the only stealth spell a Witch normally gets, not counting Share Shape giving you the +8 size bonus to stealth and another +2 from its dex bonus, and you can even combine the two - or just cast Blend on your familiar if you want it to go scouting or hiding. It's really useful with its 10 minutes/level duration.
And I think it's worth noting that you can use Share Shape for combat if you turn into a monkey, use Beastspeak, and equip a spell component pouch after using Share Shape. You even get a +2 size bonus to armor class, another +2 AC from the size bonus to dexterity, and a +1 bonus from natural armor (if you didn't have one already), for a +5 total bonus to armor class.
Tom Sampson wrote: Just to give a quick reply to the above:
Agent of the Grave: I'd just bring up Prestigious Spellcaster here.
Cyphermage: I'm surprised you mentioned the option that uses full caster level (Enhanced Scroll) instead of the one that lets you use basically your spell DC (Insightful Scroll). If you really want, you can just scribe or purchase a scroll at a higher-than-minimum caster level. It's just more expensive.
Brewkeeper: The Battlepot Cauldron is really just an item for allies, yes. But when it comes to Poisoner's Gloves, you can already use two-weapon fighting without any feat. The feat only reduces the penalties. Since you are presumably attacking yourself (this will trigger Spite, by the way, but you can use that for another buff) or a willing ally, the attack should be an automatic success anyway and apply two draughts. If your familiar has hands, it can use it as well (and even without hands a familiar can smear a single draught on someone). Another point regarding the Brewkeeper is that your entire party can just drink a lot of draughts right before combat thanks to the fact that no one will hear you drinking the same way they would hear you casting spells.
Skin Send: This spell explicitly bestows upon you construct type, traits, and immunities (including immunity to mind-affecting effects, fortitude saves that don't apply to objects, death effects, necromancy effects, and much more). It's crazy. You shouldn't underestimate that. You can also self-heal with...
Agent of the Grave -- added
Cyphermage -- updated, thanks
Brewkeeper -- I added a note about the action efficiency here. Thanks again. I'll leave poisonser's glove shenanigans(tm) aside though.
Skin Send -- I suppose there are scenarios where having construct immunities really matters. Added.
Phantasmal Killer -- Understood, but I'll still pass. If you've boosted your spell DCs (via which ever mechanism), there are still better choices than an all or nothing single target spell. At least to me.
Debilitating Pain -- I had the Mass version, but skipped this. Added, thanks.
Blend -- added
Share Shape -- I added a monkey mention
Joynt Jezebel wrote: @UnArcaneElection Quite true. The only thing I disagree with is Hex Channeler. I dislike the archetype. If you want to channel energy you should play a cleric, not a witch when it costs you your hexes. That's why I said concentrate on rider effects instead of d6s. You just spend ONE Hex on this archetype, and you take feats like Turn (or Rebuke) Undead, which work just as well for you as for a Cleric, because the Channeling DC scales with your effective Cleric level, not your number of Channeling dice (this also works for Clerics such as Evangelist that trade out some Channeling dice). If you are a divinely connected Witch, you can get Variant Channeling, and some of the rider effects don't care how many dice of Channeling you have, just what your effective Cleric level is.
UnArcaneElection wrote: That's why I said concentrate on rider effects instead of d6s. You just spend ONE Hex on this archetype, and you take feats like Turn (or Rebuke) Undead, which work just as well for you as for a Cleric, because the Channeling DC scales with your effective Cleric level, not your number of Channeling dice (this also works for Clerics such as Evangelist that trade out some Channeling dice). If you are a divinely connected Witch, you can get Variant Channeling, and some of the rider effects don't care how many dice of Channeling you have, just what your effective Cleric level is.
I'm almost certain that I have these details in the guide thanks to you. I mean, without Turn Undead, etc. this is just an awful archetype.
I just updated the write-up. Before I said that taking additional d6 is usually not worth it. Now I specifically recommend never taking additional d6.
@UnArcaneElection I see what you mean now and I think you are right.
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"Rogue, Sylvan Trickster – An analogous build to the defiler is promising, but needs closer investigation (and ideally someone who has played it…) for a more certain rating."
A quote from your guide Northern Spotted Owl.
I have played this archetype, once previously and again now, though not very far in terms of level.
Do you want some details for your guide?
I ask because if I remember right you saying something like PF1 is in it's dying throws, sad but true, and you are moving on.
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Joynt Jezebel wrote: "Rogue, Sylvan Trickster – An analogous build to the defiler is promising, but needs closer investigation (and ideally someone who has played it…) for a more certain rating."
A quote from your guide Northern Spotted Owl.
I have played this archetype, once previously and again now, though not very far in terms of level.
Do you want some details for your guide?
I ask because if I remember right you saying something like PF1 is in it's dying throws, sad but true, and you are moving on.
I do think most players have moved to PF2, but I'll update the guide whenever there's a reason to. So yeah, I'd love to hear how that went.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Joynt Jezebel wrote: "Rogue, Sylvan Trickster – An analogous build to the defiler is promising, but needs closer investigation (and ideally someone who has played it…) for a more certain rating."
A quote from your guide Northern Spotted Owl.
I have played this archetype, once previously and again now, though not very far in terms of level.
Do you want some details for your guide?
I ask because if I remember right you saying something like PF1 is in it's dying throws, sad but true, and you are moving on.
I do think most players have moved to PF2, but I'll update the guide whenever there's a reason to. So yeah, I'd love to hear how that went. @JoyntJezebel
Just wondering how your Sylvan Trickster panned out? Any insight or feedback of note?
Cheers
OK, Baldric the Cunning is only level 4, a Svirfneblin with 3 levels of Unchained Rogue, Sylvan Trickster, and one of Witch, Ashiftah, the first of a 2 level dip intended to obtain Ghostwalk.
You will recall me singing the praises of the Ashiftah archetype partly for Ghostwalk. Ghostwalk is even better for a Rogue. In a pure Ashiftah it plays an important defensive function, in a Rogue it does that and sets up sneak attack damage in future rounds- very important indeed. You get more out of deliver touch spells as well, though if you want to extend the dip to 3 levels for this and level 2 spells is an open question.
Joynt Jezebel's recommendation is a two or maybe 3 level dip into Ashiftah is very much to be considered for any type of Rogue that is not a Ninja.
Oddly Stargazer5387 does not mention the Ashiftah in their excellent guide to the Unchained Rogue "One Thousand Years of Death". Stargazer5387 surveys hexes and points out how some hexes are great for a Witch but poor for a Rogue, notably the whole chain of hexes that you sustain with cackle. If you want to buff and debuff with cackle, play a witch. A Rogue needs all those actions to sneak attack and move. I say read this guide if you want to play an Sylvan Trickster or just an Unchained Rogue.
Prehensile Hair is good for a Witch and better for a Rogue. The Rogue want to use the hair to attack, with the Multiattack feat if allowed. The Major hex Animal Skin may also be better for a Rogue who may play a scouting role. Aside from this good hexes are good hexes.
I believe that the Sylvan Trickster is one of those archetypes that's power was never properly explored. One side effect of this is that I keep bothering my poor GM for rulings as I want to use hexes in different ways. What rulings you get can really affect the way the character plays too.
The archetype gives up Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge and Uncanny Dodge, the latter 2 hurt but can be lived with. In return you get some situational and rather underwhelming druid abilities and some nice DR starting at level 8. The real plus is the option of taking hexes, including major and grand hexes at the same level as a witch. I am near certain that of the various classes and archetypes that get hexes it is only the witch and Sylvan Trickster that get the major and grand hexes.
I started at level 3 and have only progressed one level. But hexes add a lot of power and versatility to what a Rogue can do, so the archetype must be good, blue I think.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: I believe that the Sylvan Trickster is one of those archetypes that's power was never properly explored. One side effect of this is that I keep bothering my poor GM for rulings as I want to use hexes in different ways. What rulings you get can really affect the way the character plays too. What rulings have you run into? That sounds like key info.
I like ashiftah witch 2/sylvan trickster X. If you take hex strike (evil eye) you have unlimited sneak attack while steadily debuffing your target. Alternately with hex strike (slumber) you take more of an all-or-nothing approach.
I added a preliminary write-up.
I sought rulings on how the Hexes Prehensile Hair and Flight interact with Ghostwalk. These hexes can be used for minutes/level and I would think that if the hex is on it is being used. My GM said yes "for now".
Then there is the interaction of Prehensile hair with multiattack, if that feat is allowed. My GM said yes.
Finally, there was multiweapon fighting and bladed boots.
Incidentally, I am playing the wrong race for some purposes. A race with four arms, Kasatha or Green Martian [if allowed] clears up any doubt about multiweapon fighting. You also get the benefit of never being surprised.
And a race that can have 3 natural attacks goes well with the prehensile hair.
So your GM has ruled that during the minutes duration of prehensile hair and/or flight you're just constantly vanishing?
And he allows you to take multiattack (a bit generous, but not nuts or anything). Sounds like you're stacking up as many natural attacks as you can to increase the odds that one hits, triggering ghostwalk.
I don't follow the multiweapon angle. Ghostwalk is only triggered by an unarmed attack, right? So this must be something separate.
Thanks all around!
Wall to wall technicalities.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: So your GM has ruled that during the minutes duration of prehensile hair and/or flight you're just constantly vanishing? He ruled that "for now" and Ghostwalk takes a move action. I don't have Ghostwalk yet.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: And he allows you to take multiattack (a bit generous, but not nuts or anything). Sounds like you're stacking up as many natural attacks as you can to increase the odds that one hits, triggering ghostwalk. Ghostwalk is triggered by using a hex successfully or not.Hitting with a natural attack won't trigger Ghostwalk as such. Note that trying to hit someone with Prehensile Hair must be using a hex, even if he changes his mind on just having the hex activated and using it's minutes. That triggers Ghostwalk.
I currently have 2 rapier attacks, 2 with Prehensile hair and a bite attack via the Maw trait. But to do that I need a full round action, so I have no time to use Ghostwalk.
I do have the False Attacker feat, so if I get sneak attack on the first attack I can try to make the roll to be able to use it on the 2nd attack and so on. Apart from that having 5 attacks just allows me to do more damage.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: I don't follow the multiweapon angle. Ghostwalk is only triggered by an unarmed attack, right? So this must be something separate. Ghostwalk is triggered by using a hex successfully or not.
Multiweapon was about getting 2 more attacks with my boots. I should not have mentioned it as it has nothing to do with the archetype, hexes or the Ashiftah dip.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: He ruled that "for now" and Ghostwalk takes a move action. I don't have Ghostwalk yet. That seems a rather generous ruling, but hey take what you can get. And yes, Ghostwalk definitely takes a move action.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: Hitting with a natural attack won't trigger Ghostwalk as such. I meant this in the context of using Hex Strike. 1. strike (and hopefully hit), 2. use hex strike to apply evil eye or slumber, 3. use move action to ghostwalk. Next round: repeat. With evil eye you can do this repeatedly as you debuff various rolls. While with slumber you only the 1 round/target of ghostwalk, but if they fail their save you don't even need it.
But your approach of hitting them 20 times/round probably works too. :)
I was going to provide an answer to this question from your new section on the Sylvan Trickster-
"GM question: would a conductive weapon allow you to use hex strike?"
Then I had a closer look and realised my answer was wrong. More thought and I believe the answer is no.
From the text for conductive weapon-
"A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric’s domain granted power, sorcerer’s bloodline power, oracle’s mystery revelation, or wizard’s arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon"
2 reasons relating to the 2 bolded pieces of text.
melee or ranged touch attack Hex Strike adds a hex to a normal unarmed strike not a touch attack.
expend two uses of his magical ability hexes, at least the ones you use with hex strike, are usable once a day per target, so you can't pay this cost.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: melee or ranged touch attack Hex Strike adds a hex to a normal unarmed strike not a touch attack. This sounds like a reasonable bit of GM latitude. Worth asking.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: expend two uses of his magical ability hexes, at least the ones you use with hex strike, are usable once a day per target, so you can't pay this cost. But yes, this is a bridge too far. I'll remove the note.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: expend two uses of his magical ability hexes, at least the ones you use with hex strike, are usable once a day per target, so you can't pay this cost. But yes, this is a bridge too far. I'll remove the note. Would this work if you had Accursed Hex? That feat gives you a second try on a Hex if it fails to stick the first time.
I don't think so UnArcaneElection-
1 Accursed Hex allows you to use the same hex on a target a second time in some circumstances. But a hex is still not a resource you can only use so many times a day, so you still can't pay the cost.
2 Hex Strike is still not a touch attack.
Finally, it requires so many resources to do that it is not at all worth doing even if your GM will allow it as a house rule. You need to take 2 feats, and you are rather feat starved, and get a conductive blade to set it up. The end result would need to be better, as in much much better, to make all this worth it.
What do we think about:
Witch 1/Monk X
Note that, "At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat." So you can take Hex Strike as your 1st level feat.
Which hex do you choose with Hex Strike then? With Slumber, and later Accursed Hex, you have Flurry of Nap Time. Or you could opt for Evil Eye to get Flurry of Debuffs (-2 AC, -2 attacks, -2 saves, ...). A human could take Hex Strike/Slumber, and nab Accursed Hex as their bonus feat.
The main weakness here is that your hex DC doesn't progress. But at lower levels I think you'd be a real menace.
I would certainly not rule that way. Hexes are at will abilities, meaning that they have unlimited uses. A target can only be affected once by a hex per 24 hours, but a conductive weapon only affects them once so that is no problem. It just consumes two "uses" in order to power that single attempt. That all works fine, and you can still only target a person once per 24 hours for your hexing attempt.
The problem is that most hexes are not touch attacks and the Hex Strike feat does nothing to make it so. You can only use a conductive weapon with the Blight hex, which is not worthwhile. It is really only the Seducer archetype that has an at will touch attack that you can use with a conductive weapon (and this ability is technically not a hex, as far as I can tell), which is why I pointed out the possibility of using a conductive reach weapon, such as a longspear, to try to randomly affect enemies with your single AoO. But you would want to try to improve the attack roll with spells like Heroism at the least.
Incidentally, the guide has Greater Magic Weapon in blue for the Devotion patron (where it is a 4th level spell) but in green for the Strength patron (where it is a 3rd level spell). One of these two ratings needs fixing.
Tom Sampson wrote: I would certainly not rule that way. Hexes are at will abilities, meaning that they have unlimited uses. A target can only be affected once by a hex per 24 hours, but a conductive weapon only affects them once so that is no problem. It just consumes two "uses" in order to power that single attempt. That all works fine, and you can still only target a person once per 24 hours for your hexing attempt.
The problem is that most hexes are not touch attacks and the Hex Strike feat does nothing to make it so. You can only use a conductive weapon with the Blight hex, which is not worthwhile. It is really only the Seducer archetype that has an at will touch attack that you can use with a conductive weapon (and this ability is technically not a hex, as far as I can tell), which is why I pointed out the possibility of using a conductive reach weapon, such as a longspear, to try to randomly affect enemies with your single AoO. But you would want to try to improve the attack roll with spells like Heroism at the least.
I feel like the GM has to rule in the player's favor on both the touch attack as well as the uses-per-day limitation. And that's too much for me to suggest a conductive weapon.
Tom Sampson wrote: Incidentally, the guide has Greater Magic Weapon in blue for the Devotion patron (where it is a 4th level spell) but in green for the Strength patron (where it is a 3rd level spell). One of these two ratings needs fixing. Nice catch. I downgraded greater magic weapon to green.
I did add a brief write-up for a witch 1/monk X with: slumber, hex strike & accursed hex. This is an over-powered build at lower levels, but falls off because your hex DC doesn't progress.
I do think it would be a terrifying gestalt build.
I'm a bit confused here. What do you mean by the GM having to rule on "both the touch attack as well as the uses-per-day limitation" exactly? What even is there to rule on with regards to the touch attack?
Just to be sure we're on the same page, I'm saying only the Blight hex and the Seducer's Kiss would qualify for conductive weapons, as they are the only melee touch attack abilities.
Tom- I am going to weigh in here.
First you are right that blight hex and the Seducer's Kiss are touch attacks.
This means Northern Spotted Owl's monk 1 /witch 1 build, or the related gestalt idea, won't work.
On "uses per day" here are the original posts. I disagree with your post quoted below for the reasons in my post quoted below. I have given my reasons and don't want to argue further.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: I was going to provide an answer to this question from your new section on the Sylvan Trickster-
"GM question: would a conductive weapon allow you to use hex strike?"
Then I had a closer look and realised my answer was wrong. More thought and I believe the answer is no.
From the text for conductive weapon-
"A conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric’s domain granted power, sorcerer’s bloodline power, oracle’s mystery revelation, or wizard’s arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon"
2 reasons relating to the 2 bolded pieces of text.
melee or ranged touch attack Hex Strike adds a hex to a normal unarmed strike not a touch attack.
expend two uses of his magical ability hexes, at least the ones you use with hex strike, are usable once a day per target, so you can't pay this cost.
Tom Sampson wrote: I would certainly not rule that way. Hexes are at will abilities, meaning that they have unlimited uses. A target can only be affected once by a hex per 24 hours, but a conductive weapon only affects them once so that is no problem. It just consumes two "uses" in order to power that single attempt. That all works fine, and you can still only target a person once per 24 hours for your hexing attempt.
The touch attack limitation is on a conductive weapon. A hex strike applies to an unarmed attack.
Quote: If you make a successful unarmed strike against an opponent, in addition to dealing your unarmed strike damage, you can use a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen hex to that opponent. So I think the witch 1/monk X build is okay. Well, almost so. Because the hex is delivered as a swift action you cannot do this twice in a single round via flurry of blows and accursed hex.
My mistake.
I am not so sold on hex strike however.
To hit someone with a hex you use a standard action the target gets a save.
To use hex strike, you also need to add improved unarmed strike and hex strike, 2 feats.
Then, to effect someone with hex strike you use a standard action, roll to hit. If you miss nothing happens and if you hit then the target still gets a save. And you need to take hex strike a second time to be able to use it with a second hex and so on.
I don't like the strategy especially if you have levels of the 1/2 BaB and d6 HP witch class.
Joynt Jezebel wrote: My mistake.
I am not so sold on hex strike however.
To hit someone with a hex you use a standard action the target gets a save.
To use hex strike, you also need to add improved unarmed strike and hex strike, 2 feats.
Then, to effect someone with hex strike you use a standard action, roll to hit. If you miss nothing happens and if you hit then the target still gets a save. And you need to take hex strike a second time to be able to use it with a second hex and so on.
I don't like the strategy especially if you have levels of the 1/2 BaB and d6 HP witch class.
Counterpoint :) If you're a monk, and you want to hit people with your fists anyway, then getting a "free" slumber 1/round at the cost of 1 BAB might be a pretty good bargain.
Quote: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. So you only need to take 1 feat, which isn't a huge investment.
Okay, to be clear, I would not rule that Hex Strike converts a hex into a touch attack, no. I suppose we do differ on how we would rule using conductive weapons with Seducer's Kiss, sure. But just using Hex Strike with unarmed strikes as intended should work fine.
At any rate, Northern Spotted Owl, I would sooner recommend just doing an unarmed strike build as a Hexcrafter Magus or Sylvan Trickster Unchained Rogue if you want to do a Hex Strike build. If you want to use Hex Strike multiple times in the same round, you will need Combat Stamina. And since the feat is unhelpfully worded, I will point out that a combat stamina pool is equal to your BAB plus your constitution modifier. You can recover 1 point of combat stamina with 1 minute of rest.
Tom Sampson wrote: At any rate, Northern Spotted Owl, I would sooner recommend just doing an unarmed strike build as a Hexcrafter Magus or Sylvan Trickster Unchained Rogue if you want to do a Hex Strike build. If you want to use Hex Strike multiple times in the same round, you will need Combat Stamina. And since the feat is unhelpfully worded, I will point out that a combat stamina pool is equal to your BAB plus your constitution modifier. You can recover 1 point of combat stamina with 1 minute of rest. Sadly, neither the Hexcrafter or Sylvan Trickster has the "hex class feature" that Hex Strike requires. I believe only the witch herself has that.
In terms of Combat Stamina, I don't see how it gets you past the limit of 1 quick action per round.
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That's the sort of logic that would have you rule that neither Druids or Rangers can use the Totem Beast or Boon Companion feats because neither of them have class features labeled as "animal companion" (they're labeled Nature Bond or Hunter's Bond) even though they are clearly meant to be able to use these feats.
The more common standard is that so long as you have a hex as a class feature you have a hex class feature. And the Hexcrafter's class features that grant hexes even specifically have "hex" in the name.
As for Combat Stamina, the relevant text is actually at the bottom of the Hex Strike feat, where it states you can spend 5 stamina points to use the feat as a free action.
{Responses about Accursed Hex} wrote: {. . .} Fair enough.
I think Hex Strike works for a Sylvan Trickster Rogue for the reasons that Tom Sampson said. Note that sometimes you really have to insert Rules As Intended, because (for instance) the Sylvan Trickster Rogue text about Hexes is missing wording that Hexcrafter Magus has that uses your class level as your effective Witch level; but if this is not added by implication, the archetype becomes a trap.
Tom Sampson wrote: That's the sort of logic that would have you rule that neither Druids or Rangers can use the Totem Beast or Boon Companion feats because neither of them have class features labeled as "animal companion" (they're labeled Nature Bond or Hunter's Bond) even though they are clearly meant to be able to use these feats.
The more common standard is that so long as you have a hex as a class feature you have a hex class feature. And the Hexcrafter's class features that grant hexes even specifically have "hex" in the name.
re: Hex Class Feature -- Fair points. I agree too, a Hexcrafter or Sylvan Trickster should each be able to use Hex Strike.
I'm not convinced that either of them want to go with unarmed strikes. A shame that Hexcrafter and Esoteric Magus don't stack.
I come away thinking that Witch 1/Monk X is a pretty great low level build. And that Witch/Monk is a solid gestalt build, maybe with Kirin feats to mitigate how MAD it would be.
Ordinarily it's not particularly desirable, but with Hex Strike it develops some appeal. Rogues in particular do not really care all that much about the damage dice of their attacks, have swift actions to spare, and might appreciate the ability to use an Amulet of Mighty Fists (or Greater Magic Fang) to enhance both their attacks. The Magus can still use his arcane pool with handwraps since he is only attacking with one hand anyway. Both of them can take advantage of the Brawling light armor property too, but it was errata'd very late in the Pathfinder run from a +1 cost to +3 cost after the Brawler class got released, as a stealth nerf to the class for some reason. The original Paizo PRD even still lists it as a +1 cost.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: re: Hex Class Feature -- Fair points. I agree too, a Hexcrafter or Sylvan Trickster should each be able to use Hex Strike. I 100% agree they should.
I am less convinced this is the rules as written.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: I'm not convinced that either of them want to go with unarmed strikes. Going with a race with numerous natural attacks that can be supplemented with Prehensile Hair is a fine option however.
I suspect both of you may know that.
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