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Lynos wrote:

Hi all

So in our last session, during a heated combat, the bad guys threw the artifact the PC's were after through an opening and planned to close the door to prevent the PC's from grabbing it.

The ranger, on her initiative, decided to send her wolf, using Fetch, to grab the artifact and bring it back to her, all in the same round. A debate ensued.

The description is:
Fetch (DC 15): The animal goes and gets something. If you do not point out a specific item, the animal fetches a random object.

The dry interpretation would be that yes, this is exactly what happens. The player argued that this is the point of the trick. I resisted because I felt a bit disappointed that my plan to make the fight more interesting was derailed so easily... by a simple Handle Animal trick. It felt too powerful to me. But by the end I had to concede to the player because I couldn't find any evidence to the contrary.

But I want to be clear about this, and about Handle Animal in general, going forward:

- With Fetch, can an animal companion run, grab an object, and come back (while sticking to the speed limitation, of course), all in the same turn?
- does the animal act on the ranger's initiative because the ranger gives the command?
- what then happens to the initiative of the animal companion? Does it get to act again in the same round? We cancelled its turn during the round once it was commanded to fetch. But this was just on instinct.
- when an animal grabs an object, is it a free action? (it's a move action for any other PC). That's how we played it, anyway.


Animal companions have their own initiative, but many GMs hand-wave this and have the companion act on the PC's initiative to simplify things.

Picking up an item is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity as per the CRB.

The wording of the command is pretty ambiguous, but I think we all know what fetch means. I'd argue that the item is dropped at the PC's feet, personally (which would require a move action on the PC's part to pick up the item), but it's pretty open to interpretation.

My opinion on how it should've gone:
- PC commands the animal companion to fetch the item and rolls a handle animal check.
- If the handle animal check was successful, the animal companion moves towards the item on its initiative using a move, a double move, or a run depending on how far away the item is and the environment.
- Once the animal companion arrives at the item, it would have to spend a move action to pick it up.
- Once the animal companion has the item in its possession, it would return to the PC and drop the item in the PC's square
- The PC picks the item up as a move action that provokes.

Prepared casters really don't need any boosts. There's a reason why they're already considered the top tier classes.

JiaYou wrote:
GM Rednal wrote:


At Level 6, +13 to hit is perfectly appropriate. It might be an issue if they were +17 or higher, but as it stands, +13/+8 is a fairly reasonable number for a martial character. They should be doing between 17.5 and 35 damage per round (average). Anywhere above 35 and they're basically min-maxed - below that and they're reasonable.

Hijacking the thread a bit, but can you give me a sample build that would be achieving this at level 6?

If you assume a fighter with 18 STR to start, a +2 belt of giant strength (4000 gp), a +2 weapon (83xx gp, say greatsword), weapon training +1, weapon focus, and weapon specialization. Would still have 5-6 more feats to spend.

+6 BAB
+5 STR
+2 Weapon
+1 Weapon Training
+1 Weapon Focus
-2 Power Attack

+13/+8 2d6+16 19-20/x2

River Rat trait gives you +1 to swim, +1 to damage with daggers, and makes swim a class skill.

Negates the damage advantage of the short sword on top of the bonus to swim.

Dagger also does piercing or slashing (as opposed to just piercing of short sword), has a throwing range, and has a bonus to sleight of hand checks.

Some Oracles can get CHA to AC as well.

Whenever I GM, I get the players to give me a list of situational bonuses/penalties so I can apply them, but I think as long as everyone is aware what the expectations are, it's fine whatever way the group wants to handle it.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

The thing I'm not sure about how to work into DPR calculations is "things that are much better in a specific context."

For example, any striker is going to do more damage if they're in position to full attack than if they have to move and attack. Some combat strategies (e.g. Archery, or "I have pounce") are going to be able to full attack much more than "fighter with a greatsword" and so probably should do more damage. Even more contextually, rogues (or anybody with sneak attack) can do a whole lot of damage if they're able to full attack and their opponent is flanked, denied dex to AC, etc. There's no guarantee this will happen regularly, after all.

So how do we calculate DPR for an archer fighter vs. a monk without pummeling charge, since the former will be full attacking constantly and the latter must close the distance to be effective?

Like this seems like a meaningful consideration. The reason archery is so good is that you can full attack all the time, after all.

Archers/Ranged attackers also have to deal with cover and concealment (at least until certain feats/abilities are obtained), which can cause variations as well.

Nefreet wrote:
There's a feat, Fleet, that adds +5 feet to your movement speed. If you're a small-sized Paladin that essentially does the same thing.

Fleet only works with light (or no) armor and a light load.

Won't work with full plate.

I was DMing a one-shot campaign that I hastily threw together on short notice with encounters from d20pfsrd, CRB, etc. and the first encounter was against half-orc Barbarians wielding greataxes who were making lots of noise (easy to avoid or ambush), but naturally, the face decided to greet them by offering a goat (silent image, which they disbelieved) in exchange for the human women they had captive, proceeds to roll a 1 on his diplomacy, and then the muscle rolls a 1 on his intimidate check.

Battle ensues, face gets critted on the first attack with a greataxe where I rolled two 12s and a 9 IIRC. Muscle misses with his attack, takes two hits and goes down, rest of party runs away.

Probably shouldn't have used greataxe wielding barbs at 1st level and I wish we didn't roll in the open so I could've fudged some rolls ... but c'est la vie.

Ring of Protection grants a deflection bonus up to +5 (won't stack w/ magic circle)

Almost all of our adventures start at level 1, but some of them start us off as Young Characters using the rules from Ultimate Campaign (+2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con, only NPC classes, only 1 trait. At adulthood, retrain into PC class, select 2nd-3rd traits and drawback.)

Definitely feels more organic starting off as an untrained young adult who is thrust into the life of an adventurer through whatever circumstances.

Didn't play the original, new one looks pretty good. Anyone here playing it? Anyone doing a custom campaign using GM mode?

Sounds like he's more of a roll player and you're more of a role player.

Neither one is inherently bad, but obviously can cause problems like this when mixed.

Given no divine caster in the party, I'd look at throwing some ranks into Use Magic Device so you stand a chance of activating a Wand of Cure Light Wounds between battles.

You can do Dex to damage with a Starknife and the feat Starry Grace (prerequisites are DEX 13, Weapon Finesse, and Weapon Focus (Starknife) or with a Rapier and the feat Fencing Grace (same prerequisites except weapon focus would be for a rapier) or Slashing Grace (same prerequisites except weapon focus would be with a light or one-handed slashing weapon of your choosing). However, none of them work when fighting with two weapons.

What's your character's race?

We use the Paizo Critical Hit and Critical Fumble decks and we enjoy them.

Your GM is doing it wrong, though.

Loved NPC Codex, #2 would be an automatic buy for me.

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- 15 foot wall
- Climbed 15 feet
- You say starting point is the ground

I'm not seeing why he wouldn't be at the top already. Even by your standard, his feet moved from 0 ft (ground) to 15 ft (top of wall).

necromental wrote:
n00bxqb wrote:

Quick Draw and Improved Initiative (+ Reactionary or similar trait)

Sometimes you get stuck in situations where you can't have your weapon drawn; quick draw allows you to make a charge during a surprise round or a full-attack in the first round. Improved initiative allows you to go at or near the top of the order more often.

Improved Initiative is certainly not underrated, it is one of the most used feat especially for caster builds. Quick Draw isn't that useful unless you're using a throwing build, since you can draw a weapon as a part of a move if you have BAB +1.

It very specifically says under the charging rules that you can't draw a weapon on a charge if you can only take a standard action (i.e. surprise round) unless you have the Quick Draw feat. So if you don't have your weapon drawn on the surprise round, you're out of luck.

"If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn."

It's also useful if you're in melee combat and you are disarmed. Picking up your weapon provokes an attack of opportunity and costs a move action, so no full attack. Drawing a new weapon is ordinarily a move action, so no full attack. Quick drawing a weapon allows you to make a full attack with your backup weapon.

Quick Draw and Improved Initiative (+ Reactionary or similar trait)

Sometimes you get stuck in situations where you can't have your weapon drawn; quick draw allows you to make a charge during a surprise round or a full-attack in the first round. Improved initiative allows you to go at or near the top of the order more often.

You still only get two traits (three if you take a drawback) using the standard rules. The race trait gives you an "extra" one, but it's more like in place of the adopted trait.

Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race.

Can't take a combat trait with a race requirement; must be a race trait.

Dastis wrote:
I dislike low point buys or the equivalent because of MAD characters. Many classes need at least 3 decent stats to function properly(decent con + 2 combat stats). Low stat games favor already powerful classes like wizard

With a +2, +2, -2 race:

15 > 17 w/ racial
13 > 15 w/ racial
8 > 6 w/ racial

A +3 and two +2s

With a +2 race:

13 > 15 w/ racial

Three +2s

Reach Weapon + Lunge + Vital Strike chain + Death or Glory?

Obviously, only works against large creatures, but strikes me as a Come And Get Me style approach with decent damage if paired with a 1d10/2d4 reach weapon.

Is my assumption correct that the 10' reach creature wouldn't be able to strike back with its immediate action?


Death or Glory (Combat)

Even when facing a larger foe, you aren't afraid to take great risks in order to finish the fight.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Against a creature of size Large or larger, you can make a single melee attack as a full-round action, gaining a +4 bonus on the attack roll, damage roll, and critical confirmation roll. You gain an additional +1 on this bonus at base attack bonus +11, +16, and +20 (for a maximum of +7 at base attack +20). After you resolve your attack, the opponent you attack can spend an immediate action to make a single melee attack against you with the same bonuses.
Special: You can combine the full-round action attack this feat allows with the benefit of Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike.


Lunge (Combat)

You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.

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I once played with someone who made a mancatcher-specialized fighter.

nicholas storm wrote:
The best solution is probably to just make em play with the unleveled character. Eventually they will get the hint that they have to do it out of session if they want to level up.

I agree with this.

Also, hours? How? And they still get it wrong? [/mind blown]

I mean, I could see 15-30 minutes for a spellcaster, 10-20 for a martial. But hours? Plural? Just ... what?

$375 is highly misleading as that includes all the hardcovers and all the softcovers that Paizo has released up until the end of 2016. I wouldn't say owning most of that content is necessary and, certainly, it's not remotely comparable to PCGen at that price (assuming their sourcebook list is up-to-date).

Don't get me wrong, HeroLab isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, but most players are probably going to be in it for less than half of that.

HeroLab itself is $35 and includes content from the Core Rulebook and a handful of other free content (traits, bonus bestiary, AP player's guides, etc.)

Add Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Advanced Class Guide, Occult Adventures, and Ultimate Intrigue for an additional $62 ($97 total).

Add Advanced Race Guide, Ultimate Equipment, Ultimate Campaign, Mythic Adventures, Pathfinder Unchained, and Horror Adventures for an additional $62 ($159 total).

Add in the Summoner's Sidekick for $10 ($169 total).

I can't say I've used PCGen lately, but I used to use it up until a couple of years ago when I bought HeroLab and I liked HeroLab a lot more and I haven't had any urge to go back to PCGen.

I usually use it when the PCs go to sell their items. They can choose to roll for each or as a collective (generally it's as a collective). With a successful DC20 appraise check they get 50% of the listed price and, if unsuccessful, they get 40% of the listed price.

Makes it quick and easy.

Stephen Ede wrote:

It depends on how you read the text.

I read the rule as saying you threaten any square you can make a melee attack into when it's not your turn. i.e. you have to be able to make theorectical AOO's into the square.
Which would mean that when grappled you don't threaten.

Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Note if it only required the ability to make a melee attack in your turn then even unarmed characters without IUS would still threaten.
If you can threaten when grappled it would be the only situation I know of where you can't make AOOs but still threaten.

I'm inclined to agree with this reasoning. The key is the "even when it is not your turn" portion. Also, the definition is found under the Attacks of Opportunity headline.

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I don't mind playing unoptimized characters or playing with others who have unoptimized characters, but it's super frustrating when a player plays a weak PC like he's supposed to be a superhero and then throws a tantrum when things inevitably go south.

Know your PC's limitations and, if you choose to ignore them, accept the risk.

The tax man cometh

The Core Rulebook doesn't have the 3000gp part in there; looks like they added it in UE.

I doubt they added it to prevent party members from being raised/resurrected. Likely to do with some other high level spell(s) that was being exploited.

LucyG92 wrote:

Scroll of Freedom of Movement assuming decent UMD or a Cleric cohort.

I like this idea, but I don't think he could make the checks. UMD is +13, it would be DC27 to use the scroll and he'd also need to make a check to emulate a Wisdom score of 14. However, am I right in thinking he could have a potion of the same spell?

Potions only go up to 3rd level; Freedom of Movement is a 4th level spell.

If the wizard has even a 1st level Cleric cohort with at least 14 Wisdom, it's a DC 8 caster level check to activate the scroll (7 or higher on the roll; 70% chance of success). +5% probability per caster level (natural 1 always fails, though).

Without a special ability (like Polearm Master's Pole Fighting extraordinary ability), you can't attack normally with it. I think you can use it as an improvised weapon at that range (someone correct me if that's incorrect).

Normally, with a reach weapon, you need to be 10' away to use it to attack normally.

How does the wizard only have a CMD of 13? +4 from BAB alone and, with magic items, I'd expect it to be at least into the mid-to-high teens (which still isn't great, but better than 13)

Scroll of Freedom of Movement assuming decent UMD or a Cleric cohort.

Fine with both.

Got some good ideas from some of the past point buy vs. rolling threads.

+1 skill point per hit die

Serious question, what kind of circumstance penalties should be applied assuming handle animal can be used on a hostile or unfriendly animal?

The animal companion gains hit dice at a different rate than the player character. Starting at level 7, it starts to fall behind.

The rate is 1.5+0.75*[effective_druid_level] rounded down to the nearest integer.

Modify the feat so only the first ranged attack in a round doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Not really.

Chaotic Stupid/Lawful Stupid/Stupid Evil are the victims of people taking alignments to their extremes due to convoluted and skewed perceptions of those alignments.

Of course, these made-up alignments are likewise variant due to the perceptions of the players and GMs involved, and sometimes a player wants to (or has to) conform to that alignment to maintain their character.

The most common example of this is Paladins and GMs with the Lawful Stupid alignment. In some cases, a Paladin PC doesn't want to commit to an action that he claims is really stupid, but he has to, because if he doesn't, the GM will make that Paladin PC fall. Or, inversely, the Paladin PC wants to commit an action that the GM claims is really stupid (such as using Smite Evil on every enemy he fights), but the Paladin PC feels like that he has to because his alignment (Lawful "Stupid") dictates it so, and thus the GM makes the Paladin PC fall for his misconception about his alignment (which most certainly isn't Lawful Stupid).

Other examples of poor alignments include Stupid Good (falling for an obvious trick set by the GM and his evil creatures because the purest of heart shouldn't doubt the darkest of souls), Neutral Stupid (not doing anything because he doesn't care/has no interest in it himself), and True Stupid (he doesn't care about anything, as long as he gets to do his one thing, akin to how most GMs would run animals. Bonus points if you actually dropped your Intelligence down to help roleplay the alignment).

In practically all of these cases, as Wraithguard pointed out, it's really only useful (and entertaining) in the aspect of the GM to employ for his NPCs. In other cases, not so much.

**EDIT** Grammar and phrasing is hard...

Ugh, I hate GMs like that.

GM: Your Paladin has fallen.
Me: Why?
GM: You killed those children.
Me: They were evil demons who had just killed several civilians and lit their houses on fire plus half our party was incapacitated by them.
GM: Still children.

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Also can be disruptive to the rest of the gaming group especially if playing with players who have unoptimized PCs.

Most GMs generally allow 2-3 free actions per turn, so it should be fine.

Wield bow with both hands (free action)
Take one hand off bow (free action)

End turn


However, you would be unable to use abilities that require you to be wielding the bow (such as the aforementioned improved snap shot feat).

Same thing with a great sword, you'd be able to deflect arrows, but unable to make a 2-handed attack of opportunity.

Be an Elf, don't be an adventurer.

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No, you don't have to move in a straight line.

The only restrictions are that you must move at least 10', you cannot move more than your speed, and you cannot use Spring Attack to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the beginning of your turn.

Snowblind wrote:

Can I ask a serious question?

Does it even make much of a difference if the players suspect something is up, just because they got bad rolls?

I'm primarily a player, occassionally a GM, and it bothers me a lot in both cases.

If your character is aware that he's, for example, hard of hearing with fuzzy vision (i.e. poor perception), maybe he stays on guard all/most of the time when in a circumstance that one would believe to be dangerous.

But the guy with +15 perception who rolled a 1 who, after the GM says he noticed nothing, then proclaims to the party, "everyone be on alert, there's something wrong here."

Instant sense motive from my PC to see if his character is lying.

HyperMissingno wrote:
Create Mr. Pitt wrote:
Stop assuming binary outcomes. Unless someone with a very high sense motive score is not going to believe the exact opposite of the truth unless the bluff blows them out of the water. I player could have an awesome sense motive, roll a 20 and still get out bluffed; that's even more surprising.
Okay, what do you mean by binary outcomes? Are we talking about where a roll is either a success or failure? Because if we are then they're a reasonable assumption as only knowledge rolls and attack rolls have non-binary outcomes without houserules.

Who's to say those aren't the players that trigger the trap and/or are targeted by the enemies in the surprise round?

For saves rolled by the DM, how does a player take advantage of feats like Improved Iron Will?

If you can't see the roll, how will you be able to make a judgment call as to whether or not you want to use your re-roll attempt?

Charging is a full-round action (except during surprise rounds). You can't ready a full-round action.

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

0 > -1
0 > -2
0 > -3

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I don't think you have it right as you're giving a 15% chance of any result (except -3, which only has 10% because there is no 0 on a d20). As I understand fudge dice, you're most likely to get around average (i.e a bell curve).

Maybe something like ...
Terrible (-3): 1
Poor (-2): 2-4
Mediocre (-1): 5-8
Fair (0): 9-12
Good (+1): 13-16
Great (+2): 17-19
Superb (+3): 20

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