Chain Mauler

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True but Avenger to me just seems like a d8 fighter with more skill points.

On the combat, the 19 (20 next lv) would give a nice boost on to hit. Add with the Dedicated Adversary feat and that gives a +7?+7 to go with the low BAB. Granted, you are really only looking at 1 HS attack but that should kinda hurt.

Vig has a talent called Sniper that pushes the HS range out past 30 feet. So combine that with obscurement and you have a pretty nasty sniper.

Dunno. Just seems that there should be more than just the normal charge in- flail wildly until nothing moves approach.

PS. This character is hopefully going the vampire route (evil game) so not sure if that tidbit will help

I really dont want to go the DW route with this one. Done that before and thinking of another concept.

This is what I have. Please critique and advise:

Lv 1 is Spiritualist. 0 BAB but decent saves. Gives access to cantrips and lv 1 spells which isnt great but not bad here and there. Phantom provides skill focus Diplomacy and Sense motive (nice for the social side of the Vigilante). Plus incorporeal phantom to check inside rooms, etc

Lv 2+ Vigilante

Feats so far:

Human: Focus Study - gives skill focus lv 1/8/16 - cannot think of a better human feat for any class
Lv 1: Amateur Swashbuckler- Dodging Panche - could be a lifesaver if caught in melee when you are wearing light armor
Lv 3: Dedicated Adversary (human) +2/+2 goes a long way with a 3/4 BAB and being 1 BAB come lv 3

Possible 1 lv dip or switch out for the Spiritualist taking Urban Ranger for the favored enemy which would free up the lv 3 feat for something else and give +1 BAB. BUT that is one more lv delay from Vigilante class if dipping. Not sure if this is worth switching out the benefits of the Spiritualist

This is my concept: Face + stealth character that takes out the softer targets like wizards, etc while the rest of the party deals with the front line. Str mod does great damage with 2h along with the precision damage when you catch these easier targets.

Guess I could take the Accomplished Sneak Attacker for addition 1d6 if Ranger takes the place of the Dedicated Adversary feat

Initially I was considering dropping feats into the Intimidation line but removed to not step on a party members toes who was going Intim build but he hasnt showed the last 2 games so this week absence is his third strike.

Still a lot up in the air. GM has been pretty flexible with what I run since we are only in the game three sessions now but I do need to get something firmed up fairly soon.

I know the basic answer is "play what you want to play"

My character is stealth oriented with Precision Damage from the Vigilante stalker class.

Current group consists of an AP, Cleric, Alchemist (non melee), and a Sorcerer.

Im at a place where I can really go two routes, melee (non dual) or ranged.

Not sure at this point what benefit the melee would be over the ranged. Little more weapon damage vs the safety distance buffer for a light armored character to not be in the middle of melee. But seems ranged appears to soak up a bit more feats to be effective. I wont be having a ton of level feats after lv 5 (long story but just assume no level feats after 5th) so most my feats will come as a result of the vigilante class talents.

Pretty high stats with str 19 and dex 16. Can flip flop if needed as the game is pretty new (3rd session)

Can someone help me with pros/cons here to work this out?

The Phantom has darkvision 60ft. It does not specifically say WHEN it has it. The Phanton and the Spiritualist maintain a link as a free action. While in the shared consciousness, would it be feasible that the spiritualist would also have darkvision too from the Phantom?

What do you think about one level dip in Spiritualist?

Phantom is incorporeal so can scout ahead, sharing info via telepathy
Give you skill focus of two skill depending on the emotional focus
Certain phantoms give a feat (Iron Will)
Once a day reflect a failed mind affecting effect to Phantom instead of you (usually not an issue undead but you never know)
Minor spellcasting: 4 cantrips and 1 lv 1 spell
2/0/2 saves (Vig doesnt have any fort but wont need going vamp anyway)

0 BAB (so at Spirit1, Vig 2, only +1 total BAB which sucks)
4+ int skill pts down from 6+int

Or just stick with lv 3 Vig?

Not really. I am going Stalker Vigilante throughout. My only thought is whether or not to take a lv 1 dip into something else that may benefit the character more than another level in Vigilante.

Being Stalker Vig, he is stealthy and roguish. Has high strength (19) over dex (16) (decent dex tho) and uses either a bastard sword 2h or Butchering Axe (if I can part with burning a feat for it).

The concept is the refined social face of the group in Social Vigilante form. Vigilante will take care of that. In Stalker form, he is more roguish with SAs and skill monkeyed.

I couldnt see rogue or ninja being beneficial as the one level dip in either of those would only benefit a finesse build.

Urban Ranger could be nice with favored enemy human for the +2/+2 and the full BAB but not sure if that is worth deviating from the Vigilante class.

Going full Vig just gets faster access to the Vig talents and the SA damage.

I dont see the guy doing alchemy. Dark Stalker ideaology.

The character is level 2. I believe he can gain the basic vampire at lv 3 if he spends the feat (again this just makes him undead, not have the abilities and powers which come with feat expenditures). Take the vanpire abilities and powers and pretty much break them up into feats rather than automatically obtained.

So I am trying to decide whether to go a lv 1 dip in some other class or stick full out Stalker Vigilante.

Not sure how high the game will go. I assume pretty high. It is a homebrewed campaign world.

Pretty much alchemist is out. Just does not work with the concept in my opinion. And I also dont want to step on the alchemist's toes either.

Any other suggestions for a level 1 dip that would be better than advancing the Vigilante class?

All good stuff. Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

A couple of things. We have an alchemist in the group so I am very careful not to step on toes there.

The ninja dip if you think about it can be accessed by the Teisatsu archetype but at cost of Vigilante feats. Basically getting Vanishing trick would cost two Vig feats. Not sure if that is worth it (one for the archetype and another for Ninja trick).

This is the way my GM and I have worked out vampire:

Vampire is way too OP by itself. One bite and all of a sudden you have all these crazy bonuses. So we have broken the abilities and attributes down into disciplines and clan bloodlines like the old World of Darkness vamps. You have to spend 1 general level feat to gain feat:Vampire, then additional general level feats (meaning class bonus feats do not apply) to gain vamp abilities.

So long story short, the general level feats are gone so the Vigilante talents are a premium. So burning 2 feats for Vanishing trick may not be such a good use.

Also keep in mind Vamp being undead, removes MOST fort save effects so that is probably not such a great priority to gain.

The character is extremely charismatic, noble and charming when in his social form. The vigilante form is a monster.

Going the route of noble son for the social aspect and vampiric assassin for the stalker aspect. What I am struggling with very much is whether to go straight vigilante or do a lv 1 dip into something else?

Not a light weapon user so rogue/ninja probably not great. Only 1 level dip so ninja wouldnt be a good option anyway. But the SA wouldnt hurt. 0 BAB would suck since Vig starts of 0 BAB.

Possibly Slayer for full BAB + studied target but is it worth a level dip? Ranger for favored enemy human? Barbarian isnt a fit.

Fighter doesnt do a whole lot except BAB + 1 free feat and has crap for skills. For that, can go Vampire Hunter and get the same with better skills.

Definitely a stealth character. Strength over finesse but has decent dex too.

Or do you think it would be wise to just go straight Vigilante?

A helpless opponent is one that has for all intents and purposes a Dex of 0. Surprised opponents are denied their dex bonus.

Technically it makes sense. Surprise round only. I would say it wouldnt work just on normal SA but out of nowhere and the guy is taking a dump or reading a book isnt much different from snoozing.


This bit of the rule always didn't seem to make sense. For example: You have vampire coming behind someone in mist (or bat) form preparing to pounce....only to see that per rules, he can move up to and shift to solid form....and then spend the rest round getting his teeth kicked in. Doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe someone can explain this better or maybe it was just a piss poor job by the game developers. Like dimension door or some kind of shadow step behind an NPC. Usage is a standard action so all you do is pop behind him and since no facing rules in pathfinder, he turns around and blasts you.

Doesnt make sense.

Maybe someone can explain how this makes sense to them or do you just house rule around this seemingly glaring error?

I would think something like coming out of mist or stepping through a shadow portal should be a swift action and at worst a move action, leaving you with the economy to do something that round when you arrive.

Okay so say you do multi-class with the AP. At 5th level AP, you get fiendish boon and the possibility of choosing a companion instead of the weapon. Now if you multi-class, it will be too weak to ever really help much out in combat other than a diversion or speed bump. However, would the Boon Companion feat help with this?

Boon Companion

Your bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.

Prerequisite: Animal companion class feature or familiar class feature.

Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you dismiss or lose an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you can apply this feat to the replacement creature.

In all intents and purposes, the AP fiendish boon is a companion and a class feature, much like the wizards familiar and rangers animal companion.

If you feel this would not apply, are there any alternatives?

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Legendary Villains Vigilante by Legendary games for example has like eight or so new vigilante archetypes. The Dread Champion for examples says:

This ability replaces vigilante specialization.

So basically it doesn't have a specialization. So in that case all the stalker AND all the avenger talents are excluded?

Ferious Thune wrote:
Avenger and Stalker aren't archetypes. They're vigilante specializations. Even if you have an archetype, you still have one of the two specializations. Hangman Vigilante, for example, must select Stalker.

Correct but there are those that replace the specialization.

In that case, what do you suggest?

Obviously the initial works were written with two specs in mind: Avenger and Stalker. However, since then, there have been multiple archetypes added and from what I can see, no change to the initial statement of "you must be an Avenger to qualify", etc in vigilante talent selection.

If you take out all the talents that say specifically Avenger or specifically Stalker, you are left with very few talents to choose from.

Does anyone know if this has been updated to reflect the additional archetypes that have been added?

Thank you in advance

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Two schools of thought:

1) Necromancy is all about animation of the dead and creation of the dead. Feats geared towards improving said creations.

2) Necromancy as in Death Magic or negative energy magic to weaken and kill. Ex: Horrid Wilting, Ray of Exhaustion, etc

When you look to optimize your Necromancer, where do you find the best bang for your buck? Only so many feats (especially if you VMC) to spread around.

What do you think?

Playing Way of the Wicked so everyone is LE. Going necromancer route but actually playing a very diabolic charismatic character instead of the typical brooding necromancer who sits in the back babbling to spirits of the damned.

So this is what I have. Tell me what you think or how I can improve please.

Using two classes. Level 1 dip in the Vigilante Warlock archtype. Then going to Death Mage afterwards.

WTH? Vigilante? What a waste and why?

Ok firstly, one level dip just puts the character on par with sorcerer for spell progression so not the end of the world.

What Vig: Warlock gives is 1d6 unlimited Mystic Bolts for when you are low level and suck. Plus decent saves +0/+2/+2. And gives access to lv 1 magus spells. Hence BLOOD MONEY. Gives a lot of class skills (equal to a rogue in class skills) that keeps you from burning traits for things to become class skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, stealth, etc. Also opens up the Vig social talent: Renown at lv 1 which influences social outlook, etc. This will give access to rumors, deals, human influence rather than just being that dark guy who plays with bones. Plus keep in mind, rocking a Cha of 19 at lv 1 makes for a devilish handsome dude.

So level two moving to death mage mage/

Death mage uses Cha as its main attribute. Spells are limited to necromancy but you get quite a boost between spell focus, GSF, and the fetish class ability. Corpse mage gets you an intelligent bodyguard at lv 8 watching your back.

Now I have been tossing around the idea of VMC. Part of me is struggling with the loss of feats but knowing can make up some with metamagic rods. But half of your feats still hurt.

However, considering going VMC wizard. Torn between Conjuration: teleportation for the dim doors (dark portal to the land of the damned) and the Air school for outright flying (although this isnt very necromancy themed but highly effective).

This also gives access to arcane bond (house ruled instead of familiar) and via a feat, improved arcane bond (this really rocks).

What are your thoughts? How can I improve this guy?

Hey guys! Wanted to run this past you tell me what you think about this.

I'm going to be running the vigilante stalker ranged attack focus as the main levels of the character. We are running The Way of the Wicked campaign. My question is regarding whether I go the first level as a Divine Hunter Ranger,a Zen Archer monk, unchained ninja, or just begin as the vigilante. The character will be ranged mostly.

The ranger adds +1 BAB, +2/+2 vs humans favored enemy, Free Bullseye feat, and +2/+2/0 saves.

The Zen Archer adds +1 feat, Perfect Strike feat, flurry of blows, +2/+2/+2 saves, 1d6 unarmed dmg, with 0 BAB

The unclaimed ninja adds +1d6 SA (vigilante is big on SA dmg and has a talent that allows you to sneak attack at any range with the ranged weapon), quickdraw feat, fitness training, 0/+2/0 saves and 0 BAB.

The vigilante just means a faster start in the main class of the build.

All are good options. All add to the character. Way of the Wicked is very human front-loaded.

I see good in all of them. What are your thoughts? Thank you in advance

One to run this past you and ask your opinion on this. Right now I'm thinking at to level of Rogue sniper going into the Marksman class from the psionic book. If I take a third level in The Sniper it would pick up an additional 1 D6 sneak attack and increase sniping sneak attack range by 10 feet. I could also take a rogue trick down the road that would give another 10 feet for sneak attack damage bring that total to 50ft sneak attack damage range. Or get started after two levels on the Marksman class which is a pretty good sniper class. Either way I'm planning on taking the feat that gives you 1D six additional sneak attack damage. Do you think the additional 1D 6 sneak attack and 10ft range is worth holding off on the Marksman class for another level?

Trying to convert Paizos Angelfire Apostle to a LE version for Way of the Wicked. Need some suggestions for SU effects under the Versatile Channel as the AA uses restorations and resurrection type spells. Any suggestions would be very welcomed.

Anyway here it is

Hellfire Apostle

Hellfire apostles use the powers of evil to spread damnation when possible and cleanse the forces of good with flames from below.

Armor Proficiency
Hellfire apostles are not proficient with medium armor.
This ability alters the cleric’s armor proficiency.

Diminished Spellcasting
A hellfire apostle is less concerned with the traditional divine magic that many religious adherents receive. The hellfire apostle receives one fewer spell slot at each spell level. When a hellfire apostle gets no spells per day at a spell level, he can cast domain spells of that level normally, but can only cast nondomain spells of that level if he gets them as bonus spells. This ability alters the cleric’s spellcasting.

Extra Channel
At 1st level, the hellfire apostle gains Extra Channel as a bonus feat.

Channel Hellfire (Su)
An hellfire apostle must be of lawful evil alignment and must choose to channel negative energy. When a hellfire apostle channels negative energy, affected nonevil creatures are dazzled for 1 round, with no saving throw for this effect, in addition to experiencing the normal effects of channel energy. This ability alters channel energy.

Versatile Channel (Sp)
At 5th level, the a hellfire apostle can spend two uses of his channel energy ability to cast cause blindness/deafness or lesser restoration (what to put here opposite LR?)
At 7th level, he can choose inflict disease or paralysis
At 9th level, he can choose poison
At 11th level, he can choose breath of life. (What to put here. 5d8+1/lv dmg is pretty weak for two channels)
At 13th level, he can choose harm
At 15th level, he can choose regenerate. (what for here?)
At 17th level, he can choose restoration. (what for here?)
At 19th level, he can choose resurrection but can affect only a target that has been dead no more than 1 round per his cleric level. (finger of death??? - seems pretty cheap for a lv 19 ability)

Damning Flames (Su)
At 9th level, the hellfire apostle becomes a direct conduit for the dark power of his deity. Whenever the hellfire apostle casts a spell that belongs to the inflict subschool that is a lower spell level than the highest spell he can cast, he can unleash a blast of hellfire as a swift action by expending one use of his channel energy ability. The flames last for 1 round and fill a contiguous area equal to one 10-foot cube per level of the inflict spell cast (at least one side of the cube must be adjacent to the hellfire apostle’s space). The flames deal 1d6 points of damage per spell level. Half of the damage is fire damage, and half is raw divine power not subject to fire resistance or immunity. Any creature in the area can halve the damage with a successful Reflex saving throw against the spell’s DC. The hellfire apostle can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Pounce wrote:

Witches and Psychics both have Intelligence-based casting, so you're not losing out on save DCs compared to a Wizard. Sorcerers are arguably better at enchanting due to certain bloodlines (Infernal, Fey), but yeah, probably isn't the best choice.

If you are aiming for mind mastery, however, I'd be inclined to give the Psychic a go - it's literally its #1 schtick.

See this was what was getting me on Psychic:

Phrenic Pool (Su) - The maximum number of points in a psychic’s phrenic pool is equal to 1/2 her psychic level + her Wisdom or Charisma modifier.

So limited there unless points dumped in Wis and or Cha.

Psion has a ton more power points and can increase things all day. Psychic at lv 10 has what... 5 + wis/cha mod? So maybe 9 pts?

Well Im stuck being a filthy elf so there goes any Cha bonus. So kinda pigeon-holed into INT classes a bit. So there ditches Witch, Psychic and Sorc.

So that leaves arcanist, psion or wiz.

I didnt see anything on a quick glance at work special about the Arcanist for mind control. What am I missing?

Would you go Wizard or Psionic Psion (Telepathy)? And why?

Still needing a little help here guys and since I have over a month until first game session, I have more time for critique of the concept.

Firstly, elven. Secondly, Kingmaker game

Was thinking no matter what to go 2 levels of Divine Marksman Ranger to get the favored enemy: human,the free Bullseye feat and free Rapid Fire feat.

From there is it either Fighter: Weaponmaster or Paladin: OoV

So lets just work on say levels 1-12.

Pros:Would gather 6 bonus feats +6 normal = 12 feats
+2/+2 for Weapon Training
+3 to CMD

Cons: Vulnerable to saves

Pros: Smite Evil 4/day (+3 with OoV) say +4 attk/+10 dmg
Lay on hands 5+/day
Cha to saves
+2 enchantment (divine bond)
6 normal feats

Cons: Three stats for attribute points a Kingmaker game, is there enough BBEGs to warrant the OOV Paly over the fighter?

Elven only playing Kingmaker

Was thinking of going Ranged (bow) Paladin

This is my idea

Pal (Divine Hunter) 2

War (Dragonheir Scion archetype) 3 or Archer 3

Pal (Divine Hunter)+

This are my thoughts:

1) Get pal 2 to get the smite and the great saves (with Divine Grace) while maintaining +1 BAB progression.

2) Either Dragonheir Scion -free Arcane Strikes in place of 1 war feat, an additional free feat, +1 in Intim, and at lv 3, +1 Nat armor and +5 energy resist. Has the Dragonheir roleplay paladin aspect for Kingmaker game.


3) Archer +1 perception, 2 free feats, ranged disarm at -4

Both archetypes lose Armor training at lv 3. Was thinking going Breastplate which is +3 mod. With a ranged paladin, is it typical to go much over a 16 with all the different stats leaching points?

Or is it that big of a deal to keep the armor training (dont see ranged needing a ton of movement due to range of now)?

Archer has the ranged disarm which is nice. The Divine Hunter wont allow heavy armor anyway so BP is the way to go it seems (mithral BP?)

Or just go 3 lvs plain Jim fighter (or chunk the whole thing and stay paladin!!!)??

What do you guys think?

Say you had the returning enchant on your bow...

Could you get just 1 arrow of (fill in the blank) and use that or does the magic have to make a full quiver full (at full enchant cost)?

I'm online over skype the rest are tabletop. I don't know a single player other than the DM that I knew in college and he plays in my every other week game online over

DM wants an Elven game which pretty much limits to Elf and 1/2 Elf. When I added the 1/2 elf option, he allowed but said would be prejudice with society. That's fair.

Kinda sucks because I'm not getting a lot of feedback on 1) the groups demeanors as players nor 2) what is the theme or goal of the game. It is supposed to start in Dec.

I'm a planner and developer so naturally, I like to cook my characters with backstory and development. Options are:

1) Two handed paladin VMC cavalier 1/2 elf. Tons of self sufficiency but I don't know the group. I see paladins as Holy Warriors not lawmen no matter how Pathfinder watered that down over time. That means fanatic faith. That means, intolerance to evil or devious actions by fellow group players. That could mean butting heads with people that I don't know. Ive played in a lot of games with players running good characters and most the time, GOOD isn't exactly consistently roleplayed.

2) Soulknife VMC Vampiric bloodline Sorcerer with 1 level dip (lv 1) in monk. Concept is demonhunter from Warcraft (but without the magic). Highly mobile. Monk lv boost to unarmored AC and the Soulblade bladeskills just take it from there. CN align. More loner, almost Raistlin Majere-ish view (we aren't together, we just happen to be walking the same road at the same time). The coolest concept of the three but just not sold it will work with a group, especially if the group rolls all CG/LG goodie goodies.

3) Kind of a homebrew sorcerer I made. Only access to necromancy (non undead) and very few spells but access to all class necromancy spells. How I have applied this to the game is the view of Elves revere nature. Nature is the circle of life. Life to death to life thing. No living without dying. True Neutral. So this guy is more of a good death type that hates undead. Pretty cool concept but man, not very self sufficient at all when you take out conjurations spells and evocation spells. Basically you debuff, death to undeath things, and higher levels do the save or die things (granted Horrid Wilting helps). And the only one that is homebrew and not pathfinder supported so not 100% sure DM will allow.

soooo...what do you think?

Yes was definitely planning on Fey Foundling at 1. Wis primary stat. After this advice, will probably dump the trip due to lack of feats. Man that is one starved feat build!

Half Elf so can get the Exotic Weap Prof as free feat if forgo the addition +2 stat at make up.

But that also means no racial feat for human. GM is calling for Elven game.

Going Paladin with VMC Cavalier Order of the Star irregardless. That will eat up another 3-4 feats?

Pros of Fauchard: Reach, trip, more overall damage due to the increased crit ranged especially if stacked with Keen or Improved Crit.

Pros of GS: No additional feats. Pretty close damage before keen or IC.
MUCH BETTER CHANCE OF UPGRADES IN TREASURE LOOT. Can go with additional +2 to stats racial.

Cons of Fauchard: Eats up racial stat + min of 1 add feat (improved trip). Much less likely to find in treasure loot

Cons of GS: Less overall damage, just not as cool

Starting lv 1 or 2 so having the clams to enchant wont be for a bit.

Thoughts? Thank you in advance!

So could you say be a rogue 3 then switch for all future levels to say master of disguise (rogue archetype) or does all your prior levels automatically convert to the archetype? And then what happens if say you get something as MoD lv 2....would you acquire it at total level 5 in this case?

I think we have a winner in the Vigilante class. Now to tweak with some ranged SA abilities/feats and we should be in. Thank you all for the suggestions.

Any ideas on the traits and social feats for this guy to make him Lebeau-ish?

Yes but have to be able to pass as human since in a human settlement setting.

Thank you very much everyone for your responses.

Sorry if I gave misinformation. The gambit demeanor was not class but just casual, gamble, womanizer type of character. I wasn't intended to make a energy card tossing character. I put that out there in the event someone would say, hey this feat is really roleplay effective for that type or this trait.

The class he is playing is shadowy ranged attack. Thank you for the Slayer suggestion...hadn't thought of that. Just not sure how it compares to the ninja for what I am trying to achieve.

Thinking of a character that stays in the shadow, does not engage melee wise and uses poisoned darts with SA damage. The effectiveness is the SA damage added. I envision not a Shuriken but not a throwing knife. Thinking maybe a two inch blade...wider than a dart but not a throwing knife. But call it a dart for all intents. 20 ft range with class abilities that goes up. SA range is base 30 but with class abilities/feats that can go up.

I did like the sniper for the halving the range penalty. The 2nd level deadly range was nice but as it is written, it is clearly intended for the bow that has well more range than 30 ft. I guess I could ask for homebrewing that rule.

Did some reading and some forums spoke of slayer being more melee and rogue being more ranged. Not sure if that is correct. Slayer has superior BAB and saves but a slower SA, which is the meat and potato of the idea I have. Accomplished SA feat helps that as well.

Thank you for all the replys and please, keep them coming

The gambler is a demeanor and flavor, not the class.

Ok I have an idea for this character. Party face. Roleplay heavy. Gambit type character very gambler type by demeanor. Owns a tavern and deals in information and black market items. Dhampir for dex/cha bump and just that statuesque handsome look that screams Remy LeBeau.

His secret life is that he is an sniper/assassin type. I envision a ninja class but ranged. And his ranged attack is dart like throwing knives that can have the added joy of poisons. Created an archtype of the ninja that is more of a ranged ninja. level perks that increase range of sneak attack and also one that decreases range penalties. Vanish gets him out of melee issues.

Im considering 1st and 2nd level start in Urban Ranger for the favored human, the bump to saves and BAB and the cheap feat at level two. but is it too much of a cost and should go straight Ninja or maybe just 1 level in the ranger?

City based campaign.

Any suggestions from you creative creatures out there?

Dave Justus wrote:


That said, I wouldn't want a character like that in my party. If you can usually be replaced by a 750 gp wand and a little time, then I would rather just have a bigger share of the loot and leave your character at home.

Obviously, groups are different, and your mileage may vary, but at the very least I would check with the other players and make sure that your flavorful, but not fully contributing character, is cool with them.

Comments like this are just 100% useless. Firstly, if you are in a tough fight, you need more than a wand of cure light wounds or there will be party bodybags needing res spells. Otherwise there would never be a need for cure serious wound spells or heal spells. The fact that you discounted the entire cure line that much tells me you either dont play over level 5 gameplay or you are just clueless. Either way, you are useless for this discussion.

Thank you for the suggestion but the concept wont work with Shaman. And I agree on the battlefield control vs damage aspect.

What do you think about the monk dip? Too costly for the 1 level loss?

The Theologian cleric gives a costless metamagic effect to one heal spell plus the healing domain gives +50% heal power on the cures so that helps a lot healing wise.

Right now I have selective channel and combat casting as my level feats (Aasimar). Any suggestion for future feat progression with a build like this? We are not doing society play.

I am planning on playing a complete non combative Theologian cleric (healing domain) for an upcoming pathfinder game. Now I realize that some of my choices are not optimal cleric wise but..

I see this cleric sans any armor. Literally in robes or actually, looks like the iconic wizard from pathfinder except in white. And maybe not so grumpy looking.

We are starting level 3. I did a level 1 dip into Sensei monk and before you fall out...I did it for the nearly complete ac bonus from Wis (wearing no armor pretty much puts me to the mercy of protection spells if not this). I have Deflect Arrows as the monk bonus feat so that helps some. It puts me progression on par with an oracle which isnt so great but...

I also do not expect to have a lot of gear. Basically most everything is turned over to the church and to furthering the faith in the land. It would be very cool if the DM would allow me an old school vow of poverty type thing but Im not holding my breath.

My goal is to basically be a healing machine without offensive spells (except for things like banish, etc at higher levels). Sanctuary is my friend as long as I can pull it off (which helps with is high starting Wis).

What do you think? What do you suggest feat progression?

That is nice as it gets but 2 levels!?!?!?! ACK the pain!

Plus I dont think I can pull off LG with this guy. CG all day long. Too much a gambler and ladies man to roll schoolboy paladin.

But love the idea.

Wish pathfinder would budge some on that strict LG paladin stuff and make it more holy paladins of a deity as opposed to law

Well it works really well with a humanoid based game. Once you start adding in dragons and large sized creatures, the Swash really dives. Very hard to parry things and just doesnt match up. But in a humanoid city, it rocks.

And I was planning the Quickdraw feat at lv 1 so that would help. But as for the enchanted daggers, honestly MW or even normal daggers would be fine for humanoid when you dont have to bypass DR.

Well the Zen Archer gets a free feat (precision shot) as well as the flurry of misses (Rapid Shot). So that would be two feats to make up for. Throw in the character is an Aasimar and he doesnt get the free bonus feat...

So basically, at what point is the 1 level dip worth it?

Also, I was under the impression that the Swash got got Ref saves but crap everything else. Did they come out with errata since the Revised Advanced Class Guide Play Test?

This is what I am thinking...

Possibly going 1 level in Zen Archer (GM will allow it for using thrown weapons)to gain the flurry of blows, some decent saves (Swashbuckler has terrible saves) and free precise shot feat.

The reason for this is to add the ability to throw daggers with pretty nice precision. Swashbuckler allows +Swash level to damage for thrown piercing weapons within 30 ft. I would like to add that little flair bit to the character.

What are your thoughts? Im doing it mostlyto get the additional throw and a little better saves. The +0 BAB sucks for sure.


Thank you so much for your post Guardianlord.

I am very heavily leaning towards the Swashbuckler but what little reservations I have left is because of the character initially written as a ninja and not necessarily utility. I havent played a rogue in a very long time but it does seem that it is a class that has to set up to be effective...something I really fail at patience wise.

While the Swashbuckler may lag behind in damage to the ninja, potential for flair and gamestyle of play may fit me more

I have the concept down just the class has me bouncing back and forth.

CG alignment either way. City based campaign. Starting level 1

What I have read on the Swashbuckler has been promising with flair but not sure it is very optimal.

Will have a paladin and mage in the group. Not sure of third character yet. Im guessing some kind of ranged.


My suggestion: Play a Tiefling Fiendish Vessel. Channel to heal and harm. Create bloody skeletons to guard you.

WIzard is good but in an Asmodean flavored campaign, you will reap more benefits by being a cleric.

How about returning calls, texts and emails? Mine wont/cant for the life of him

cartmanbeck wrote:
There's also no reason that you can't be a paladin of Gozreh, worshipping the inherent beauty and balance of nature, while still being LG.

Because it does not mix one little bit. How do you worship a deity of chaotic behavior while being strict rule abiding yourself?

While there are many Pathfinder rules that do not make a lot of sense to me, none is worse imho than the rule that all paladins have to be LG. With that said, it is impossible to be a paladin of Cayden Cailean since his alignment chart is CG, NG, CG.

The actually concept of paladin is holy warrior for a deity, not some overzealous policeman upholding the law. For that you have hellknights.

Is there a workaround for this or does PF throw its hands in the air and just say not all good aligned deities have paladins?

Yeah I dont want to take that much advantage of the craft feats. Plus, someone else in the party has craft wondrous. The Imp channel is a good idea.

I was thinking with scribe scroll, that would take the place of craft potion since CP tops at lv 3 spells.

Craft rod will basically remove the need for the metamagic feats. Three reaches a day. Three maximizes a day instead of learning the feats.

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