Danse Macabre

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Mr. James Jacobs,

I have a question regarding the Wizard's Arcane Discovery Alchemical Affinity. Does it allow a Wizard to copy the Cure spells available in the Alchemist' Formula list to the Wizard's spell book?

Thanks for your time,

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Rub-Eta wrote:

Sorecerer needs to stay away from combat. Why? Because she's squishy. Stay away and it won't be a problem. And it makes no sense for a level 1 caster in a higher level party to not have "stay away" as priority #1.

Monk and Fighter needs to make sure the Sorcerer doesn't get into combat. They should occupy the battle field and prevent the enemies from getting to the Sorcerer. If you want any kind of "agro pulling", there is this feat.

And btw, I find the terms "tank"/"agro"/"DPS" to be very offensive (at least use DPR, if at all).

I can think of much more offensive things to say mate. The fact that he/she labels it as it is is fine simply for the fact that it is a term(s) that we all can easily grasp the idea of.

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Admittedly i have not read the entire thread so i apologize if the following is not entirely relevant or if it has already been addressed.

In D&D there is a ways to "Tank" but it is not one would depict as the norm definition. The ways to "Tank" is primarily through CC and positioning via spells, feats, and the environment it self.

My fighter, level 12, is an archer with the Snap Shot feat chain, Point Blank Master, Pin Down, and the normal slue of archery feats and my friend's Sorcerer, focuses on battle field control spells primarily, have "Tanked" for the party on multiple occasions. 1 of the best examples of this actually happened 2 weeks ago. The party was ambushed in a forest environment scattered with large thick trees on each side of a path used to connect two villages. My friend used a couple casting of wall of stone to funnel the enemies towards a 15ft gap in front of the party. I stood in the dead center of the gap doing what an archer does best being firing upon the enemy as my allies waited with ready actions at each side of me forcing the enemy to close distance to deal with a pesky archer. This also gave my allies an option to retreat behind the wall for cover. The feat choice mentioned above though made it were i have a threat range of 10ft around me while using a bow and provoking no attacks of opportunity when firing a bow with me in melee range along with the ability to stop enemies from taking 5ft steps and withdraw actions. In short sorcerer spells forced enemies to go after a certain target while cutting them off. While the fighter feats forced the enemies to stay in combat with the fighter.

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Human Weapon Master Fighter with the Longbow that picks up the Snap Shot feat chain with Point Blank Master. The character will be able to be viable in both the back and front line of combat.

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Index cards is what i have used for years. A card for each spell i have acquired and a card for each monster i summon.

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Solid choice only concern is that u might get bogged down by the paperwork of a caster and controlling not only ur combat actions but ur pet as well. I always suggest to new players to pick a combat heavy class, like fighter, and ready up on that class and the combat section and not to worry about the rest. The game has a lot of information to learn and it can be discouraging trying to learn it all at once, especially when going a caster.

Other than that tidbit of advice the answering to Deadmanwalking's questions are pretty key for us to help u.

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As some1 that has played an alchemist i would like to note that bombs are only good for burst dpr not sustained since you only have ur lv + in mod uses. Personally i would have the gnome be an elf instead with point blank shot using a long bow with bombs for when they get to close. For the dwarf play off the dwarf's strong point being its con. Use the mutagen for its innate natural armor, since alchemist get shafted on ac, and con for added health or dex for added ac. The enlarge person will take care of the dpr fine enough.

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As long as you dont make some thing that will over shadow his character you should be good. When DMPCing a character you have to make sure that u dont act on information u know but on info that ur character would know. Good luck.

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I would like to point out that say you fought a target with 16 dex and str at level 1 there defense to it is only 16 meaning that you would only need to roll a 11 or better to trip them. I dont know about you though but when i was playing my sorcerer using that combo i was tripping every thing i encountered that was a biped. After a While though i did stop using it because of what we were fighting but that did not kick in until around level 7. But once i hit around 13th level i invested in Improved and Greater Trip wich not only gave those missiles a +4 to tripping but also made those i tripped provoke for my allies, and on that character its summoned minions. I will admit a simple Shield spell negates the spell but if you have a good DM and kill off all the targets post haste enemies should not be finding out your battle strategies so easily.

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PSusac wrote:

Agreed, Summoned monsters can bog down play, but they don't need to.

I'm an experienced GM, so I can run a monster well enough. I've also got all my monsters statted out on index cards (at least out to 4th level).

the theme I'm working on here is maximum adaptability. This means that getting many actions in a round is good (so summoning helps with this).

As does the improved familiar and the fast study feat.

But I've never played fast study before, so I don't know if it's worth it.

I have a very reasonable GM, so pulling out my book between encounters and learning a new spell seems pretty do-able, but regular 15 min. breaks doesn't.

So, if you've had some experience with this, that would be great.

I have had some experience with it but it was with a DM i dont play with any more. The reason i got it because he was fond of dungeon crawls and attacks at night in said dungeon were escaping the way you came from was not an option. You still need the 8 hours rest so sleep is needed be it that your studding for 1 hour or 15 mins. The gold of that Arcane Discovery is the 1 min study for spells on the fly with empty slots.

In the dungeon crawl scenario it is great because there can be options of finding rooms that only have 1 entrance/exit to barricade ur self for quick preparation. I mainly used it for getting the party across hazards like chasms, underwater paths, so on and so forth.

In short its a good thing to get but only with games you know were you dont have much time to prep and face many situational hazards.

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Personally with ur build id change race to Teifling with the type that gives bonuses to str and cha. That way u can take the Teifling favored class bonus for Teifling and be a godly self healer with your LoH. Keep Fey Fondling and drop Fast Learner for Power Attack at 3rd and Furious Focus at 5th level. This way you can just charge in with a 2hander and do your thing with smexy Swift cast LoH when needed.

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williamoak wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:
PSusac wrote:
Fast study also lets you fill empty spell slots in 1 minute - so while the party is looting after one slot, you can re-choose a few spells, without slowing down the group.

true, fast study does have it's strong points. I guess, it's just I've never run in a dungeon where the 15 mins was a problem. If you find that happening frequently it might well be worth it for you.

I tend to love summons though. they're good GM therapy. It gives them something to beat the bejezzus out of and not fret at a dead PC.

Summons have always seemed to be more of a GM neurosis to me. The most common complaint I've heard is that they slow down combat to a crawl and drive GMs insane.

The reason for that is because those people dont come prepared with the notes of the monsters stats for easy access. I played a Summoner Focused Sorcerer before and brought the notes of all the monsters i would be summoning and the game went fine, group btw consisted of 6 people including my self. Preparation is key to playing caster, more so for summoner focused ones.

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I know its not part of your build plan but a toppling spell build adds a lot of CC if you can afford it. Personally i would trade out Metamagic Master (Fireball) for Magic Missile and grab Toppling Spell metamagic feat at level 1. This combo will give you great early to mid game CC since magic missile is a non save and non to hit spell that can target multiple enemies when you start getting your CL higher. Admittedly you would have to wait 2 more levels to perform Rime Fireballs but until then you will be hella useful to your team, especially if thee are fighter and rogues in group, at level 1 onward.

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Jeeves or Bob.

Jeeves, being his wish to serve his master to the very end, decided to become a Lich.

Bob, tired of people not noticing him because of his absolute plainness, vowed to make all look upon him, or at least glance over his way, and became a Lich.

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Alchemist, Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Bard, Rogue, Druid, Summoner, Sorcerer/Wizard, and Ranger would all be good options, some are more dependent on the setting.

Alchemist make great ranged bomb throwers as well as melee brutes. I thing that most over look though is they also make for great healers if going for the Infusions and Healing Bomb discoveries along with potion making.

Fighter can cover melee and ranged.

Paladins are great melee champs with self heals. Also great for a setting were the players are of the same church.

Cleric is like fighter but subs out some physical damage for spells.

Bard is also like cleric.

Rogue is great because of the Gang Up feat and flanking making sure that in all fights there gonna get there SA off, those immune to SA obviously excluded. Also can make for a great stealthy game.

Druid is Druid. Great at range or in melee and any class with a pet is a plus.

Summoner for them metric s*** ton of meat shields. Can and will slow down the game almost to a halt though.

Sorcerer/Wizard for the massive versatility of summons, combat control, boom boom spells, ext.

Ranger because its a fighter with a pet and spells.

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Vinila Druid win a single level of Sorcerer with the Draconic and Orc bloodlines via Crossblooded archetype. Pick up a wild shape that gives you fly speed, primarily Air Elemental when you get access, and just enjoy the power of a blaster druid. This also works with Draconic and Elemental bloodline. You loose out on +1 damage per dice but gain the ability to make any energy damaging spell into the energy type of you chosen Element.

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Now a Master Summoner is nice but i prefer the Sorcerer for my summonings because of its many spell slots and things one can do as a full caster.

A Sylvan Wildblood Sorcerer ,imo, is the way to go. What makes this option amazing is that you can go full caster focusing on summonings while having an animal companion. Now imagine for a second you as a sorcerer being invisible casting summon monster and buffing your animal with spells like Form of the Dragon, normal a personal spell only but thanks to share spell animal can benefit from it. Now if you were to go this wrought i strongly suggest a single level of Druid so you qualify for the Summon feats that give your summon monsters the ability to bypass magic, silver, and cold iron damage reduction.

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Here is an example i always give of a Synthesis Summoner when they ask about them being op or not and how to build one, a creation of mine a while back.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1

-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34

-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40

AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28

-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34

-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44

AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58

-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)

-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20

Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)

High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.

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I played in a low to no magic game and the DM allowed me to play an Alchemist. If allowed to play it play it and dont look back. Explosive Missile + Explosive Bomb made things extremely fun and well managed. True you wont be carpet bombing things with you bombs as the typical bomber alchemist, which you DM will love you for, and you wont be doing full attacks that round but it allows you to stretch your bomb usage through the day and be able to hit targets with a bomb that you normally would not be able to do to distance. Also the Grenadier archetype with those arrows will allow you to double alchemy an item for good burst.

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I agree with Helaman. If your dealing with some one as childish as that, and obviously a few screws loose, expect the worst. If he is gonna cause trouble in a game be sure to expect trouble in real life.

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Say F*** the story line and make the next few games RP of you and the party selling the equipment. Did this to a DM of mine that wanted us to RP getting/selling equipment. Took it to the next level and turned it into bartering for food and water and obtaining farmland with livestock. Ate up 6 games of this with all the players in on it, and enjoying it to some extent. Needless to say he is no longer as strict when it comes to equipment management.

On terms of him giving monsters abilities they dont have. Well you either suck it up or refuse. Refusal can be leaving or derailing. You have to remind your DM its a 2 way street. You cant have a game with out a DM and the DM cant have a game with out players. Either the DM sticks to the rules or the DM is gonna have some trouble with angry players. Its one thing to die to a monster through hard written rules and unlucky die, its another to die from some thing that should not of existed in the 1stt place.

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Cha rogues are nice but with 2 simple traits, Clever Wordplay and Pragmatic Activator, your using your Int for the 2 Cha skills that mater allowing you to not bother with Cha to an extent. Pragmatic Activator allows one to use Int instead of Cha for UMD checks and Clever Wordplay allows for Int instead of Cha for one other skill, Diplomacy is highly recommended.

Now here is the beauty of using Clever Wordplay for Diplomacy. Other than Int governing the number of skill you know Int also governs the amount of Languages one can start off with. So a high Int Rogue is gonna have grand number of Languages (s)he knows and one needs to obviously understand you to be effected by your Diplomacy.

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Paladin 2 / Oracle Lore Mystery 1 / Summoner Synthesis x. It allows for one to drop there physical stats and use the edilons. The charisma score now maxed because of this with out worry will govern there AC, Lore Oracle ability, and be added on to all there saves. This combo gives a very defensive character to both physical damage and save or suck spells.

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Personally i enjoy an Aasimar Sorcerer 1 / Paladin 2 / EK x because of how well they mesh along with no need for a spell book.

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Grizzly the Archer wrote:
TWF and rapid shot I believe is another combo used for throwing builds to generate enough attacks. So this would also ruin those kinds of builds as well if I remember right.

It is.

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Losing out on Rapid shot is a nerf because that is 1 less attack. Or in the case of a well built healing Alchemist one less heal they can do with a Healing Bomb.

Also to hit is kinda meaningless for Gunslingers and Alchemist because they target Touch AC in there optimal range were they will position them selves as often as they can.

In concerns to damage lets say your using a d6 gun. That is 1d6 + Dex + Weapon Enhancement Bonus + Weapon Enhancement Effects + Msc party Bonuses from Bard/Wiz/Sorc/ext. Same goes for Alchemist except you replace the 1d6 and Weapon Enhancements for Bomb Damage and Dex is replaced with Int.

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If going for a weapon the goblin feat Goblin Gunslinger lets one use a Gun of medium size with out penalty.

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Hmm in my opinion you should focus more on buffs and summons. Later on you will be able to get spells like Form of the Dragon which can be placed on you animal companion thanks to the companion's shared spell ability. This is actually how i played my Sylvan Sorcerer and it worked flawlessly, especially when using invisibility when casting them summons. I did take a level of Druid though to get access to 3 summoning feats to grant the summoned creature's natural attacks to bypass magic, silver, and cold iron dr.

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1 of those 2 traits will get your disguise running off your Int so your not taking a penalty and int is your main stat for alchemist so its all good.

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It would wreck Alchemist Bomber builds a tad.

The house Rule we came up with in our games to keep firearms relevant but not over shadow its other ranged weapon allies is to view them all pretty much like real life early age flint lock pistols. We got rid of misfire completely but made it were the quickest one can reload the gun is a swift action, no free action reloads. This alone made it were a gunslinger cant get 2 shots off with his main gun and that is it. He could be a smart mother and carry a butt load of guns and drop them after use but that gets expensive really fast.

Even with this supposed nerf to firearms my friend though still was a beast of a gunslinger. Once he was able to afford to have Reloading Hands permanently enchanted on both his guns and a pouch with Abundant Ammunition permanently enchanted he became a power house being able to shoot 5x a round at touch ac.

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@ Taku Ooka Nin best part is you only need a single level of Sorcerer with those bloodlines.

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when it comes to combat heals i have to say there the best if not one of. For the simple fact of Healing Bomb discovery. Can you say 6 ranged cure wounds a round. I know i can with great happiness.

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Id vote a Paladin if the Oracle is not going undead minions. If Oracle is going undead minions then id vote either Alchemist or Druid 1 / Sorcerer X minion summoner with some aoe spells and 1st level spell Infernal Healing.

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Build is incorrect for 2 reasons. Build with the 8 on int is 21 points he needs to subtract a point from one of his 10-12 stats. 2nd flaw is his skills. Skills for ninja is 8 + int + 1 from human. Since he has an 8 in int that is 8-1+1 = 8 not 9. The character is gonna be mediokur in out of combat situations because of his stat allocation. Also will have no damage until he gets an agile weapon. Also the fact that he not wearing armor is a concern he can easily gain 1-2 more points of ac with out cutting into the dex.

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Tarrasque. All levels. If your gonna be a man and go fisty cuffs on some thing, then be a true man and go Tarrasque tipping.

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RaizielDragon wrote:

Is there a way for a Paladin to get access to a Domain, so that I can instead choose the True Death Inquisition?

Also, how would a Paladin/Gray Warden work? Would it be better as just a regular Paladin? I want the armor and BAB of a Paladin, but I like the True Death Inquisition.

Lastly, the Gray Guard seems pretty cool. How well does it meld with Pathfinder? Will it work ok to use, as-is, or would I need to change part of it?

In terms of 3e/3.5 PrCs conversion is simple. Primarily all one has to do is get its saves, bab, hd, and skills to follow the pathfinder format. Example is there is no concentration skill any more so that is removed and skills like spot and listen are covered now by perception. Id also like to not when converting a d4 class/PrC it becomes d6, i find it amusing when people find the wizards health is so low when back in my day we were capped with d4s and a low amount of those. Also when converting feats that require x amount of skill to use you subtract 2.

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Joex The Pale wrote:
Psion-Psycho wrote:
...A defiled blade for a defiling master.

Dark, and a tad too descriptive, IMO. Don't be surprised if your post gets edited.

Other then that, an excellent descriptive text for an evil magic item. I might just steal that. I enjoy making such items and the evil creatures that create them for my PCs to defeat. Nothing makes a group to a fist-pump like destroying TRUE evil and not just a another batch of raiding orcs.

Ya probably was a bit to descriptive. Thing is i really censored my self a lot. There were some really terrible things going on in that game part of it being an evil game for one and as an Antipaladin you have to literally be the opposite of paladin in almost all regards including its extremes.

I too fall under the fist-pump players when it comes to that. Best part is after all was said and done the same DM had us play a new game were we had our previous evil characters be the bad guys. I played, with this knowledge of course, a female paladin that was part of the same order as the one used in the ritual. That was a most fun fight and even though i killed off a character i made we all knew that it was gonna happen the DM even told us so in the beginning of the evil campaign.

Also a little added note if wondering about the sword. We had the order create and seal a room under the deepest part of the citadel the order resided in just to keeps it out of harms way.

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Have you come about how the coin is to be made yet? I enjoyed what my DM did a while back. I was playing in a group of 6 in an evil campaign were the party is grouped together for there own ends. My character, an Antipaladin, made quite the name for its self as a one who enjoyed means a bit to vulgar to mention here. So the DM sent a group of 5 female Paladins at us on the backs of Unicorns. WE killed all but one Paladin and her mount. The 2 wizards and i had quite the idea amongst us that the DM allowed. Using rituals involving summoned and enslaved Succubi and a whole lot of wizard power. We defiled the virgin paladin with the horn of her own mount and use the blood to temper the blade. The steal was forged out of the paladins bones and celestial armor with the hilt being the Unicorn's horn. A defiled blade for a defiling master.

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Hmm sadly i cant really think of a feasible way to be a blaster with out going full caster. If he wants all those nifty things of paladin and oracle as stated he would be better off as a high def bruiser. Which in that case i would give the Synthesis Summoner a look over and just have the Ediolon flavored as a wingless dragon at 1st or one with very immature wings that is impeding his ability to fly until he qualifies for the flight evolution. Either way sadly the player at hand is gonna have to trade some thing. Sadly we cant have every thing we want.

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Dr Hiram Temple wrote:

As others have noted, The FMA style of alchemists doesn't quite have enough in common with the alchemist class in Pathfinder. Pathfinder's Alchemist is more directly derived from the traditional western image: mixing potions and the like. while most other aspects of these two alchemists line up pretty well(emphasis on self experimentation/harm, for instance), the Pathfinder alchemist simply lacks the ability to tranform the world around them in the way that the FMA Alchemist quintisentially does.

Mechanics-wise, a reflavored wizard or sorcerer, with a specialization in transmutaions (or, for mustang's case, fire spells) would probably fit the design of the FMA alchemist much better.


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The run down of the character is some what simple.

Your Formula list is you "spell book" and the extracts are your spells. Like Wizards an Alchemist can obtain new formulas off other Alchemist and must prepare them ahead of time. Unlike the casters though the Alchemist extracts are vials of liquid similar to that of a potion except only you can use them.

The Discoveries can be viewed much like the Rogue's Talents. At ever even Alchemist level he acquires a new discovery. These discoveries might have requirements though like being x level Alchemist and/or having a different discovery to qualify. The discoveries that are meant for bombs some times has an asterisk (*) near them. Those that have that symbol can not be used with other discoveries that have that symbol.

Bombs are ranged thrown weapons and follow the ranged thrown weapon rules. Unlike most ranged thrown weapons though they damage in an area of effect, similar to a Wizard's fireball. The target struck by the bomb takes bomb damage and those around the target take splash damage.

The Mutagen is pretty much a Dr. Jekyll concoction that decreases your mental scores in favor for a boast to your physical scores for x period of time. Also i would like o mention is that the mutagen has no x times per day so you can have multiple mutagens but only one mutagen can be created stored, and used at any given time. So if you make one mutagen and make another right after it with out using the 1st mutagen the 1st will become inactive and unusable.

I hope that helps and clarifies the class for you. Im sure i have missed some thing and if i did mention it and i will do my best to explain it. If you have any questions and im on i will be more that happy to answer it to the best of my capabilities.

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Well 1st off the alchemist from that anime and the alchemist class are far different from each other. The alchemist class is designed to lob bombs for the most part and create specialty potions known as mutagens and extracts that only he can consume. The discoveries he comes upon through his advancement further alter his mutagen and body if obtained, give new abilities to his bombs or sub out the bombs for different damage types, make his extracts more effective, and so on.

There are multiple ways to play the alchemist. The most common is a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide style with natural attacks and a high burst bomber. Some though, like my self, play them a tad bit more differently like using them as party healers and tankish bruisers with some field control.

There are many threads on these forums of alchemist im sure you can find one and get a feel on how to create one.

Btw the following is the only site i really use and the best go to for all your paizo needs. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/home

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My vote is still for alchemist as a healer. True it is not as optimal as an oracle or as armored as a cleric. I will say though what it lacks in those regards it makes up for in skill points, lack of need to be up close, and versatility of style when it comes to healing. The ability to perform an AoE heal be it in a cone, line, or circle radius is a very useful option to have. Mind you there form of ranged healing also does damage to undead instead of needing to chose one or the other like a cleric.

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Personally id play a Teifling Paladin or a Monk / Druid or a fighter that can actually get all the feats needed for both archery and melee instead of having to rely chose between one or the other.

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MDCityNIGHT wrote:
This is a rules question. In my mind a damage roll is every time you roll a dice for damage. Say you have a Great sword compared to a Great axe. You have a STR mod of +4 and Overhand Chop. The Greatsword deals 2d6+8 and the Great axe deals 1d12+8 but would the Greatsword deal that +8 damage twice because two damage dice are being rolled?


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Have you considered Arcane Duelist Bard? They make for great DDs with a 2 level dip of Ranger.

If set on the Sorcerer / Paladin comb, a very good combo, i would advise the Orc Bloodline if you decide to go Crossblooded. Otherwise every thing above is quite spot on for a DD.

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Also i failed to mention some beefy casters. A monk 1-2 / druid x is amazing adding wis, the druid's caster stat, to ac which does work in druid forms. A 1-2 level fighter / Sorcerer x / EK 10 also makes for an amazing melee crit caster were every time you crit you can perform a swift cast spell that does not up the level or time of the spell. An Arcane Duelist Bard x / Fighter 1 / EK 10 is also quite powerful especially when you get your Greater Bladed Dash Spell that you can use a a standard action and highly likely to be able to use it again as a swift depending on how lucky you were.

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Beemer wrote:

my thoughts on vital strike was to use it with come and get me b/c you only get one attack for AoO

And I took both quick reflexes AND combat reflexes

Not sure if im reading it correctly, your post that is, but one can not use vital strike with an AoO.

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The Following is a list of all, if not most, of the builds i have posted in on these forms and a lot of them are fighters. Enjoy.


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There are ways btw to make a beefy caster that dont involve DD. But if he is set on it id say base classes should be 1 level fighter, 1 level oracle, rest sorcerer. PrC classes being 4 DD and as many levels of EK he can get away with.

Class Lay Out Ex

That lay out, at 20, will get you 15 bab and a cl 16. Obviously this is without feats and traits atm.

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