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I've never really liked the "spell slots" approach. It seems too contrived*. The most elegant system, to me, is something like Harnmaster's: every spell is a skill, your mastery of that skill (a number between roughly 0 and something a bit over 100) defines how good you are at casting the spell; casting a spell makes you tired; when you get too tired, your spells start to misfire; misfire is bad.
* this is especially true with the two classes in this book, where you only have slots in your two highest spell levels, any you used to have in lower levels disappear when you gain levels. That's almost as bad as "once you cast a spell you forget how to cast it until you get a good night's sleep", which is just plain silly IMO.
Really, anyone who thinks spell slots are too contrived really should just go read (hopefully re-read) "The Dying Earth" by Jack Vance. This magic system has specific literary roots (some classic D&D spell names like 'Prismatic Spray' are lifted directly from that book) and makes perfect sense within that literary context.
Vancian magic is awesome, reflecting one of the most well-developed and thoroughly documented magic systems found in early (pre-video-game) fantasy literature and is core to the roots of Pathfinder (and all D&D versions or D&D clones).
(tiny excerpt) "Mazirian stroked his chin... Later, when black night lay across the forest, he would seek through his books for spells to guard him through the unpredictable glades. They would be poignant corrosive spells, of such a nature that one would daunt the brain of an ordinary man. Mazirian, by dint of stringent exercise, could encompass four of the most formidable, or six of the lesser spells."
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I probably read The Dying Earth before most of the posters here were born. :-)
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Sidenote, despite having "vancian casting", does pathfinder actually use the "you remember spell and forget it" lore D&D has?
Like I've always imagined "spell preparation" to mean "you do whatever prayers/rituals/material gathering you need to cast a spell". Like when wizard casts fireball, they expend that magically prepared guano they had in their pouch and that is why they have only limited amount of fireballs per day
Well, the spell slot disappears, or becomes inactive, once you cast the spell associated with it (or any spell that might be associated with it, for spontaneous casters). Doesn't matter whether you have the materials to cast it again or not. Also, if you only have enough materials for one cast of the spell, then preparation or not, you're going to have to replenish that pouch, which means hunting down the materials you need, before you can cast the spell. Unless the required materials are literally everywhere that's going to take some time.
Most RPGs, including Pathfinder, hand wave a lot of the rationale behind magic. Generally, I expect that's probably because most players don't care, they just want to blast out fireballs until the cows come home.
Some abilities do notably allow you to restore the spell slot, like Arcane Bond. It'll probably be covered in the lore section of Secrets of Magic, but I get the sense that you don't 'forget' the spell, but instead there are pockets inside of you (your soul?) that need to be invested with magic in a particular way to cast the spell and that investment process is also part of the spell's entry in a Wizard's in universe spellbook or by however Druids and Clerics and such actually prepare their spells.
Some features let you recharge that pocket on the fly (Arcane Bond, for instance) while spontaneous magic users have very flexible pockets and just need to rest to recharge them.
The magic lore for my setting works like this anyway, and it was pretty much written around the way the rules are designed.
I agree with Sword there. There is clearly some kind of special investment from the caster, in addition to whatever preparation is needed.
If you look into classic esotericism (namely Indian traditions), there is a lot of "levels of existence". There is clear striation in mystical ability and I think that maps to spell levels pretty well. I hope they go into what spell levels and spells per day actually represent. I think it is very doable.
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If I were to write up a mechanic for spell casting from the ground up it would be some form of casting points, like Sorcerers have spell slots. They are consumables, and I don't think I would do it by level.
I think, for example, at level 1 you start with 5 magic points and each level 1 spell cost 1 point for example. At level 2 you have 7 points and each level 2 spell cost 2 points. You have full access to your spells either it be a book or repertoire.
Create a formula/table to keep magic in check, but still powerful. This would represent how much energy a person could tap into. Feats and what not could increase/decrease the amount you have or required.
I like pathfinder's prepared spells and slots mechanics though. Thematically I have no problem working it in my head that the spells aren't magically forgotten, you just lose access to them after you use them because it is drained from your pool of magic.
And like Albatoonoe says, there are ways to replenish some of the casting ability built into the system too.
Honestly I can't wait to get this book in hand to see what goodies it has for us.
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In developing a magic system for an RPG, you need a way to limit the power of spell-casters, or they'll take over the world. :-)
There are a lot of different ways to do that, "spell slots" is just one way. I know of two others that just seem more elegant to me. <shrug>
Do we know about how long it will take Herolab to get this information up and running>?
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Do we know about how long it will take Herolab to get this information up and running>?
They are targeting launch day.
Do we know more or less when authorization and shipping for the later July products, like this, will be?
Do we know about how long it will take Herolab to get this information up and running>?And they would be?
Sorry, August 25, the last Wednesday in August.
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Do we know more or less when authorization and shipping for the later July products, like this, will be?
This is an August release now. Auth: 8/5; Subs: 8/9-8/20-ish.
Will late July and early August shipments be doubled up then, or is everything being pushed back a month, or is it just this one product?
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Will late July and early August shipments be doubled up then, or is everything being pushed back a month, or is it just this one product?
My understanding, today, is that we are targeting July 7, (no late July), August 4, and August 25 release dates. I think it is likely that our Store is challenged in keeping up with the changes, so look to the Customer Service Forum thread for exact product details. SoM is targeted for 8/25 in PDF, hardcover. Pocket, and Special Edition.
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Do we know more or less when authorization and shipping for the later July products, like this, will be?This is an August release now. Auth: 8/5; Subs: 8/9-8/20-ish.
oooh, thank you very much for this info.
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Sidenote, despite having "vancian casting", does pathfinder actually use the "you remember spell and forget it" lore D&D has?
Like I've always imagined "spell preparation" to mean "you do whatever prayers/rituals/material gathering you need to cast a spell". Like when wizard casts fireball, they expend that magically prepared guano they had in their pouch and that is why they have only limited amount of fireballs per day
That's kind of how I saw it, back in the day. At the beginning of the day, the prepared spellcaster actually casts 90% or so of each spell, and they are sort of hanging around him invisibly, like loaded guns, waiting for him to utter those last few syllables and complete the precast spell.
Like a computer program pre-written and just waiting for him to bang that enter key.
Sidenote, despite having "vancian casting", does pathfinder actually use the "you remember spell and forget it" lore D&D has?
Like I've always imagined "spell preparation" to mean "you do whatever prayers/rituals/material gathering you need to cast a spell". Like when wizard casts fireball, they expend that magically prepared guano they had in their pouch and that is why they have only limited amount of fireballs per day
That's kind of how I saw it, back in the day. At the beginning of the day, the prepared spellcaster actually casts 90% or so of each spell, and they are sort of hanging around him invisibly, like loaded guns, waiting for him to utter those last few syllables and complete the precast spell.
Like a computer program pre-written and just waiting for him to bang that enter key.
I think of preparing spells as loading a very complex gun and casting it is akin to pulling the trigger.
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Wait, this PDF was pushed beyond paizocon europe? D: I could swear it was early august earlier
I was planning to give all three intro scenario chronicles to level 2 character I might want to pick options for from this book... Now I can't do that unless I subscribe or something or use acp for retraining
Wait, this PDF was pushed beyond paizocon europe? D: I could swear it was early august earlier
I was planning to give all three intro scenario chronicles to level 2 character I might want to pick options for from this book... Now I can't do that unless I subscribe or something or use acp for retraining
Even if you subscribed, the options won't be legal until after the con most likely. Soo, a couple of ways around this, 1 you could GM the scenarios instead and earn GM chronicles. 2, play with a pregen and apply the chronicles but don't finalize the character until the book releases. (I think that works, the free rebuild is until the character is played at 12 xp or higher, right, pregens don't count for that right?)
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Once a character is played, I believe. Otherwise people would never be able to rebuild after their third scenario.
EDIT:
"Until you play a game in which your character starts with 12 or more XP, you can freely rebuild your character completely."
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A shame it got delayed, but well it is necessary. I'll just gnaw my break a while longer x)
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Do we know if a Spear Magus is possible? The Mwangi book has me thinking about playing a Matanji that way, but I don't know if any of the options fit that concept.
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Do we know if a Spear Magus is possible? The Mwangi book has me thinking about playing a Matanji that way, but I don't know if any of the options fit that concept.
Spear? Would work with the One-Hand-Free hybrid studies or the Weapon-and-Shield one. Longspear? Probably the Two-Handed-Weapon studies. Those seem to be the best bet.
Do we know if a Spear Magus is possible? The Mwangi book has me thinking about playing a Matanji that way, but I don't know if any of the options fit that concept.Spear? Would work with the One-Hand-Free hybrid studies or the Weapon-and-Shield one. Longspear? Probably the Two-Handed-Weapon studies. Those seem to be the best bet.
Do we know what the Two-Handed style does?
Do we know what the Two-Handed style does?Do we know if a Spear Magus is possible? The Mwangi book has me thinking about playing a Matanji that way, but I don't know if any of the options fit that concept.Spear? Would work with the One-Hand-Free hybrid studies or the Weapon-and-Shield one. Longspear? Probably the Two-Handed-Weapon studies. Those seem to be the best bet.
You don't need a free hand to cast, so there is no reason why you can't use two-handed weapon.
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Do we know what the Two-Handed style does?Do we know if a Spear Magus is possible? The Mwangi book has me thinking about playing a Matanji that way, but I don't know if any of the options fit that concept.Spear? Would work with the One-Hand-Free hybrid studies or the Weapon-and-Shield one. Longspear? Probably the Two-Handed-Weapon studies. Those seem to be the best bet.
I believe they said your character gains temp HP in their stance every round, so you'd have more overall HP to tank hits.
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I believe they said your character gains temp HP in their stance every round, so you'd have more overall HP to tank hits.Do we know what the Two-Handed style does?Do we know if a Spear Magus is possible? The Mwangi book has me thinking about playing a Matanji that way, but I don't know if any of the options fit that concept.Spear? Would work with the One-Hand-Free hybrid studies or the Weapon-and-Shield one. Longspear? Probably the Two-Handed-Weapon studies. Those seem to be the best bet.
A review of my notes from that presentation reflects that you are correct. The two handed weapon hybrid style in question is called, "Inexorable Iron".
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Just so I've got the timing straight.
I ordered both SoM and G&S back in Janurary.
Street date for SoM is now Aug 25th, so my physical copy will be with me then. Since PDF access is tied to shipping and my shipping is international, does that mean I shouldn't really expect PDF access until mid-late August either?
August 25? :(
Any word on the cover? Is it going to be the stock core rulebook line tan on the sides? Or is this alternate art where the side is blue and there is cool metal-colored filligree on the edges of the cover going to be what it actually looks like?
They broke from the norm for The Mwangi Expanse book--it would be cool to see a similar experiment here. I love consistency, but when you've already broken the precedent...
Any word on the cover? Is it going to be the stock core rulebook line tan on the sides? Or is this alternate art where the side is blue and there is cool metal-colored filligree on the edges of the cover going to be what it actually looks like?
They broke from the norm for The Mwangi Expanse book--it would be cool to see a similar experiment here. I love consistency, but when you've already broken the precedent...
Click on the thumbnail, and you'll see the final look of the book.
Click on the thumbnail, and you'll see the final look of the book.Any word on the cover? Is it going to be the stock core rulebook line tan on the sides? Or is this alternate art where the side is blue and there is cool metal-colored filligree on the edges of the cover going to be what it actually looks like?
They broke from the norm for The Mwangi Expanse book--it would be cool to see a similar experiment here. I love consistency, but when you've already broken the precedent...
I don't think the thumbnail is accurate. I'm pretty sure the spine will be navy or something? I don't have the image from Paizocon, just a vague memory. I could be way off though.
I don't think the thumbnail is accurate. I'm pretty sure the spine will be navy or something? I don't have the image from Paizocon, just a vague memory. I could be way off though.Click on the thumbnail, and you'll see the final look of the book.Any word on the cover? Is it going to be the stock core rulebook line tan on the sides? Or is this alternate art where the side is blue and there is cool metal-colored filligree on the edges of the cover going to be what it actually looks like?
They broke from the norm for The Mwangi Expanse book--it would be cool to see a similar experiment here. I love consistency, but when you've already broken the precedent...
I addressed this up-thread. Our Store Manager is juggling many duties including updating images. Thanks for your enthusiasm and patience.
Do we know more or less when authorization and shipping for the later July products, like this, will be?This is an August release now. Auth: 8/5; Subs: 8/9-8/20-ish.
Thank you.
I am wondering if the variant spellcasting and other rules are going to be PFS legal?
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I am wondering if the variant spellcasting and other rules are going to be PFS legal?
I understand there is a committee to review products and make those kinds of calls. Sanctioning is targeted for release date. Please give the process time.
I'm ready for some magical secrets. Hopefully we can get some final teasers before release.
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I'm ready for some magical secrets. Hopefully we can get some final teasers before release.
I’ll host 2 more Paizo Live episodes (July & August) I expect interviews with Know Direction, Band of Badgers and Danger Club podcast, off the top of my head. Plus today’s surprise announcement.
Plus today’s surprise announcement.
WAT
Where to watch for this announcement? The blog, Paizo live?
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Plus today’s surprise announcement.WAT
Where to watch for this announcement? The blog, Paizo live?
*laughs maniacally in the distance*
*laughs maniacally in the distance*Plus today’s surprise announcement.WAT
Where to watch for this announcement? The blog, Paizo live?
EEEEEEERRRRRRRRIIIIIIICCC... AAAAARRRRON's TEASING UUUSSSSSS...!!!!!!
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EEEEEEERRRRRRRRIIIIIIICCC... AAAAARRRRON's TEASING UUUSSSSSS...!!!!!!*laughs maniacally in the distance*Plus today’s surprise announcement.WAT
Where to watch for this announcement? The blog, Paizo live?
I have no idea if this is related to Arron's surprise announcement, but it looks like Paizo has a "Pathfinder: Secrets of Magic Liveplay Trailer" on youtube going up at 4PM eastern (1 hour and 20 minutes from the time I post this)