So a hot-NERF?
Yes, it is a nerf, but a deserved one. That feat as it was would make tiny animals better damage dealers than tigers and dinosaurs.
With the nerf it's still powerful and allows you to make use of strength boosts from forms and gear. It's also useful for the composite longbow switch hitter build I'm working on.
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What is wrong with tiny animals actually being a threat;)
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A songbird and a rabid fox ruined it for everyone.
Bestial Rags are a relatively cheap (8000 GP) body slot magic item that greatly expands the variety of forms available to a Shifter.I'm a bit conflicted by the price. You're looking around 6th before you can realistically afford one [you need an amulet to bypass DR magic too, along with other basics], and the price is large enough where you'll have to be fairly high level to get a fair selection on forms with them. So with the games I play tending to end @ 12th level, I'm unlikely to see anywhere close to a full collection.
But that 8000 GP is a fixed price (the same price as for a Ring of Protection +2), so even though getting the first set of Rags is tough, you do eventually reach a point where the cost of buying another set is trivial. Unfortunately for many campaigns, that point is around 12th level.
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Will probably buy the PDF anyway in spite of having a subscription. It's been 14 days of nothing.
That seems more like something you should contact customer service about.
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Well considering that the druid's wild shape grants size bonuses to stats and the shifter has wild shape...basically... I don't see a reason why they wouldn't get those bonuses as well.
I want to be... cautious... Even if we go with things tagged size bonuses, neither the stat penalties or the natural armor are marked with 'size'. I don't recall 'size dependant abilities' being used before: Maybe I'm overthinking it.
these sort of nasty forum arguments are the very reason why we may never see another playtest, lol.
It's been downright civil around here compared to other forums. The shifter has NOT gone over well at all. IMO, even if there hadn't been an actual playtest, 'testing the waters' with a preview of proposed abilities could have gone a long way in managing expectations: it's not that the shifter is awful/unplayable, it's that it's not what people wanted/expected so a little heads up might have 'let people down' easier.
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Can I say that I REALLY enjoy Green Knight archetype and I hope to make a character out of it. :)
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Improvised weapon green knight that can batter people with his own limbs?
My biggest question would be....given the level of disappointment in the Shifter....what are the current thoughts of the Dev's ? What's the current plan ?
Are they going to relook at things ?
Or is it an "is what it is" scenerio ?
I thought we agreed, no comments on shifters?
Skol,
I was thinking more like pole arms and vorpal battle axes...but okay!
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My biggest question would be....given the level of disappointment in the Shifter....what are the current thoughts of the Dev's ? What's the current plan ?
I'm pretty sure they have to let more people do more than kick the tires before they have any usable data.
The shifter was designed for casual players..ie, not the ones that got a subscription already have the shifter and either stayed up all night with an excel spread sheet. I don't think they've seen the shifter yet, much less tried to use it.
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I thought we agreed, no comments on shifters?
Skol,
I was thinking more like pole arms and vorpal battle axes...but okay!
??? why would you think that ? No one said anything of the kind ?
This is a product discussion....the primary part of this product that many people were looking foreword to is the Shifter class.
As long as people can remain civil and adult in their discussion....that's going to be a big part of the discussion for this product.
I would VERY much like Dev's that were actually involved with the development of this class to actually chime in. It could be very useful to understand why/what design directions they chose to go in....and why the class ended up the way it did.
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I think it sounds like a great book!
They had me at large bears.
And I for one welcome our new shifter overlords!
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Captain,
You welcome the overlords from Papa Johns if they gave you free food. ;)
Nighttree,
Okay but I still think it's a bad idea since the internet proves there are very few adults on...
Meanwhile I'll wait and see about feat trees.
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I hate Papa Johns.
And Domino's.
Even if it's free.
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Nighttree,
Okay but I still think it's a bad idea since the internet proves there are very few adults on...
Meanwhile I'll wait and see about feat trees.
Oh believe me I hear you.....at the same time, there is a bunch of legitimate disappointment.....and so far no actual response to it.
People need to hear the "why" their expectation was totally ignored. They want to know why what they thought was going to happen didn't.....and thus far....no Dev's involved with the class have chimed in.
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Why? Because the fact is the last time they had an open playtest, all the developers got back was "Viligant isn't awesome enough" or "It's doing too much too soon!" Without trying it out for themselves. Look I appreciate that Shifter isn't what people expected...but if they wanted something they expect, THEY should be writing it.
Anyways,
Back to things that matter, SPELLS! Oh the glory of the spells. :)
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Thomas,
It's hard to get excited about the spells when it has been the SOP for the Organized Play team to pretty much disallow/reserve a bunch of the nifty ones and leave only some for use.
It also ties back to the fact that folks who only really have the option of Organized play can't just 'write something' to use.
I imagine at least a little bit of the back-and-forth on Shifter will abate when the book goes 'live' in two days, and several threads grow out of highly recommended fixes for the class with requests to the developers to take them seriously.
...I think I'll try to aim my bar a little bit lower and keep my fingers crossed that Organized Play is going to release Vine Leshy boons for GMs this quarter.
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What kind of animals are in it.
Besides big fuzzy bears.
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How easy would it be to convert Vine Leshies to Starfinder.
Skittermanders need some competition.
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What kind of animals are in it.
Besides big fuzzy bears.
I'm assuming Dire Raccoons that might have rocket launchers. ;)
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Why? Because the fact is the last time they had an open playtest, all the developers got back was "Viligant isn't awesome enough" or "It's doing too much too soon!" Without trying it out for themselves. Look I appreciate that Shifter isn't what people expected...but if they wanted something they expect, THEY should be writing it.
Anyways,
Back to things that matter, SPELLS! Oh the glory of the spells. :)
I hear you.....I'm not actually interested in an open play test....that's a side issue to me.
What's an issue to me is that I can do what the Shifter is meant to do better with the Feral HUnter.......
And what people are getting up in arms about is that they are attacked when expressing their disappointment...
I'm assuming Dire Raccoons that might have rocket launchers. ;)What kind of animals are in it.
Besides big fuzzy bears.
Ysoki mechanics aren't in this game.
I see someone finally rolled a high enough disable device to unlock the thread. ;)
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I saw somewhere that someone wanted comparison builds between classes. Challenge accepted. I'll compare the shifter to the druid, the class people have been comparing it too, at a few different levels where abilities come online. This is a quick throw together and I'm giving them the same feats, stats, magic items, and favored class bonus.
25 point buy
Race: Half-orc
Base: Str 16(+3), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 12(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 7(-2)
Damage (min/avg/max)
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw)
Magic Items: Belt of Giant's Strength
Druid (Deinonychus form, Cat's Grace, Barkskin)
HP 37
Str 21(+5), Dex 20(+5), BAB +3
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (+5 dex, +4 natural armor)
Melee 2 talons +8 (1d8+5), bite +8 (1d6+5), foreclaws +3 (1d4+2) (21/32/43)
Shifter (Dire Tiger form, tiger aspect)
HP 42
Str 23(+6), BAB +4
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+3 dex, +4 natural armor, -1 size, +1 Defensive Instinct)
Melee 2 claws +10 (2d4+6 plus grab), bite +9 (2d6+6/19-20 plus grab) (24/35/46)
Yeah the Shifter is impressive with pounce right now but the druid is not far behind especially with his spellcasting and animal companion. Lets continue on to the next level.
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw), Weapon Focus (Bite)
Magic Items: Belt of Giant's Strength, Amulet of Might Fists +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Ring of Protection +1
Druid (Dire Tiger form, Cat's Grace, Barkskin)
HP 54
Str 23(+6), Dex 18(+4), BAB +4
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+4 dex, +7 natural armor, +1 deflection, -1 size)
Melee 2 claws +11 (2d4+7 plus grab), bite +11 (2d6+7/19-20 plus grab) (27/38/49)
Shifter (Dire Tiger form, tiger aspect)
HP 61
Str 23(+6), BAB +6
AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+3 dex, +4 natural armor, +1 deflection, -1 size, +1 Defensive Instinct)
Melee 2 claws +13 (2d4+7 plus grab), bite +13 (2d6+7/19-20 plus grab) (27/38/49)
Well this is interesting. They're about neck and neck now and the druid still spells and a animal companion while the shifter has one new aspect and form (probably mouse just for evasion, some of the other minor aspects are pretty good but not really amazing). The druid is not limited in forms however and can pick what he wants to be on the fly.
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw), Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Magic Items: Belt of Physical Might(Str, Con) +2, Amulet of Might Fists +1, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Ring of Protection +2
Druid (Allosaurus form, Cat's Grace, Barkskin)
HP 79
Str 26(+8), Dex 16(+3), Con 18(+4), Wis 14(+2) BAB +6
AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+3 dex, +9 natural armor, +2 deflection, -2 size)
Bite +14 (3d6+9/19-20 plus grab), 2 claws +14 (1d8+9), rake (2 talons +13, 1d8+9) (52/73/95)
Shifter (Dire Tiger form, tiger aspect)
HP 88
Str 24(+7), Dex 18(+4), Con 18(+4), Wis 14(+2) BAB +8
AC 22, touch 18, flat-footed 19 (+3 dex, +2 wis, +4 natural armor, +2 deflection, -1 size, +2 Defensive Instinct)
Melee 2 claws +15 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +15 (3d6+8/19-20 plus grab) (31/44/58)
Well alright...the druid not only has rake but higher damage, reach, spells, and a animal companion. To rub it in further the shifter still doesn't have rake. He has to wait until 15th level to get rake. He can go deinonychus and get foreclaw attacks and take advantage of Shifter's Claws at higher levels but he's still lagging behind a druid. The later levels are not kind to him. For every improvement you get for the shifter the druid gets 2 to 4.
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What kind of animals are in it.
Besides big fuzzy bears.
You name it they might have it. All told there are 107 animal companions and familiars described beyond those found in the CRB.
What kind of animals are in it.
Besides big fuzzy bears.
You name it they might have it. All told there are 107 animal companions and familiars described beyond those found in the CRB.
Including dire raccoons with rocket launchers? ;)
My biggest question would be....given the level of disappointment in the Shifter....what are the current thoughts of the Dev's ? What's the current plan ?
I'm pretty sure they have to let more people do more than kick the tires before they have any usable data.
The shifter was designed for casual players..ie, not the ones that got a subscription already have the shifter and either stayed up all night with an excel spread sheet. I don't think they've seen the shifter yet, much less tried to use it.
I think it'd have been nice for it to have been outlined as a class for casual players, honestly. I think that could have gone a long way towards making people less dissapointed if they'd known not to expect much.
I'm not particularly happy with how it came out as a class, but I've been able to at least salvage one or two ideas from it. The only thing that came to mind was making some form of hit-and-run build with the Owl form (building through Vital Strike, utilizing the built-in Flyby Attack, and Furious Focus/Power Attack). Granted, you'd need to multiclass to get it online more reasonably, since it's pretty feat-starved. It'd be kind of gimmicky, but it'd probably be fun, and you'd at least have Dire Tiger to back it up a tad.Alternatively, you could try something like Dire Tiger, but I left that idea out since, honestly, Druid does that one an awful lot better.
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How easy would it be to convert Vine Leshies to Starfinder.
Skittermanders need some competition.
About as easy as it is with any race, so it should take all of five minutes. When I have a moment tomorrow I might do it on another thread.
I saw somewhere that someone wanted comparison builds between classes. Challenge accepted. I'll compare the shifter to the druid, the class people have been comparing it too, at a few different levels where abilities come online. This is a quick throw together and I'm giving them the same feats, stats, magic items, and favored class bonus.
25 point buy
Race: Half-orc
Base: Str 16(+3), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 12(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 7(-2)
Damage (min/avg/max)** spoiler omitted **
Yeah the Shifter is impressive with pounce right now but the druid is not far behind especially with his spellcasting and animal companion. Lets continue on to the next level.
** spoiler omitted **
Well this is interesting. They're about neck and neck...
Hey, I saw this one just a bit ago. It's really surprising how static the Shifter ends up looking. I got the idea it'd be like that from a once-over, but seeing it compared really hits the point home.
I saw somewhere that someone wanted comparison builds between classes. Challenge accepted. I'll compare the shifter to the druid, the class people have been comparing it too, at a few different levels where abilities come online. This is a quick throw together and I'm giving them the same feats, stats, magic items, and favored class bonus.
so you could have had the druid cast greater magic fang for the +1 and have the amulet be like holy. You'll have -1 on attacks for 2d6 damage, which with your 5 attacks should be more damage.
Hey, I saw this one just a bit ago. It's really surprising how static the Shifter ends up looking. I got the idea it'd be like that from a once-over, but seeing it compared really hits the point home.
I know where you saw it too! ;)
Some issues I found when doing a comparison is that although the Shifter's Claws scale it absolutely doesn't matter for many forms until around 13 level and that usually results in a change of damage from 2d4 or 1d8 to 1d10 while the improved natural attack feat gives you a bigger boost of damage much earlier. Combine the two and you get 2d8 with attacks that normally did 1d8. Honestly though that feels like a waste of a feat slot especially with how empty the class feels. Bypassing cold iron and silver and then nothing for 10 levels. Also the staggering of abilities gained in Major Forms is really rough and at many times feels unfairly far away especially if you see a Druid get much of the same stuff you get 7 levels earlier in a combat form he just randomly choose so to feel safe (or a fighter with UMD using a scroll of Beast Shape III).
Edit:
so you could have had the druid cast greater magic fang for the +1 and have the amulet be like holy. You'll have -1 on attacks for 2d6 damage, which with your 5 attacks should be more damage.
Well I wasn't trying to optimize but it honestly looks worst for the shifter when you do.
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Look I appreciate that Shifter isn't what people expected...but if they wanted something they expect, THEY should be writing it.
Extreme example time XD
Product Hype: You get a free limousine!
Actual Product: Here's the car from Monopoly.
Customers: This isn't what we were told we were getting at all!
Reply: Make your own limousine.
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Eh. I think it was more like ..
Hype: You get a car!
Expectation: It's going to be a great sports car with all the perks!
Actual Product: It's a Ford Focus.
Customers: #%@%^#^#%$&
Reply: We said it'd be a car, we never promised what type.
Painful bugger any reason why you didn't pump wisdom a bit more to qualify for the mutated form (Or something like that) feat at 7 giving you an extra scaling attack?
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Eh. I think it was more like ..
Hype: You get a car!
Expectation: It's going to be a great sports car with all the perks!
Actual Product: It's a Ford Focus.
Customers: #%@%^#^#%$&
Reply: We said it'd be a car, we never promised what type.
I think that's a bit of an over simplification and not entirely accurate. I don't think it's necessarily wrong for paying customers to expect quality content, in fact it should be the standard. When I read a customer's grievances with the class, I see people who were genuinely let down by the quality of the content provided. The Shifter was seen as the main appeal of the entire book, and it was marketed as such. Remember that new classes don't come out nearly as often as the other features presented in the book, so this was a big deal for many loyal fans.
If a company made a product that did not meet the standards of the general consumers, then they did something wrong. I'm not saying to go after them with torches and pitch forks, no far from it, but it should be entirely within our rights as consumers to talk, discuss, debate, and review content like this so that people coming in get a good idea of what they are buying.
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Painful bugger any reason why you didn't pump wisdom a bit more to qualify for the mutated form (Or something like that) feat at 7 giving you an extra scaling attack?
Looking at the feat again myself, I can imagine why not. The feat has a Wisdom requirement of 19. That seems like a great option for a Feral Hunter or a Druid, but a terrible one for a Shifter.
Except that he's going off a 25 point buy. starting with a 16, putting the +1 in it at four and grabbing a +2 headband for a few thousand gold seems a steal for more AC/Will saves/+ a full Bab scaling damage attack.
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Painful bugger any reason why you didn't pump wisdom a bit more to qualify for the mutated form (Or something like that) feat at 7 giving you an extra scaling attack?Looking at the feat again myself, I can imagine why not. The feat has a Wisdom requirement of 19. That seems like a great option for a Feral Hunter or a Druid, but a terrible one for a Shifter.
Oh I just was throwing something together and didn't give much thoughts to feats. I just thought of some stats a Shifter that's focuses on melee would choose and gave them to the druid.
BTW someone asked me to compare to Feral Hunter. Same stats and magic items up until 8th level.
25 point buy
Race: Half-orc
Base: Str 16(+3), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 12(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 7(-2)
Damage (min/avg/max)
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw)
Magic Items: Belt of Giant's Strength
Feral Hunter (Deinonychus form, tiger focus, bear focus, Barkskin)
HP 41
Str 21(+5), Dex 18(+4), Con 18(+4) BAB +3
AC 19, touch 15, flat-footed 14 (+4 dex, +4 natural armor)
Melee 2 talons +8 (1d8+5), bite +8 (1d6+5), foreclaws +3 (1d4+2) (21/32/43)
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw), Weapon Focus (Bite)
Magic Items: Belt of Giant's Strength, Amulet of Might Fists +1, Cloak of Resistance +2, Ring of Protection +1
Feral Hunter (Dire Tiger form, tiger focus, bear focus, Barkskin)
HP 60
Str 23(+6), Dex 16(+3), Con 18(+4) BAB +4
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+4 dex, +7 natural armor, +1 deflection, -1 size)
Melee 2 claws +11 (2d4+7 plus grab), bite +11 (2d6+7/19-20 plus grab) (27/38/49)
Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus (Claw), Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Magic Items: Headband of Mental Prowess (Int, Wis) +2, Amulet of Might Fists +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Ring of Protection +1
Feral Hunter (Allosaurus form, tiger focus, bear focus, bull focus, Barkskin)
HP 89
Str 28(+9), Con 20(+5), Int 14 (+2) Wis 14(+2) BAB +6
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+3 dex, +9 natural armor, +1 deflection, -2 size)
Bite +15 (3d6+10/19-20 plus grab), 2 claws +15 (1d8+10), rake (2 talons +14, 1d8+10) (57/78/100)
The Feral Hunter just straights up does more damage, has better stats, gets 6+int modifier for skills, 6th level spells, and has the same or more HP then the Shifter at times. I know this class is for new players but I also know that feeling as a new player when I see someone just absolutely out do everything I did. It's a incredibly frustrating feeling and all I can see happening out of this class is the more experienced players desperately trying not to outshine the poor guy foolish enough to play this trap of a class.
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Eh. I think it was more like ..
Hype: You get a car!
Expectation: It's going to be a great sports car with all the perks!
Actual Product: It's a Ford Focus.
Customers: #%@%^#^#%$&
Reply: We said it'd be a car, we never promised what type.
I think that's a bit of an over simplification and not entirely accurate. I don't think it's necessarily wrong for paying customers to expect quality content, in fact it should be the standard. When I read a customer's grievances with the class, I see people who were genuinely let down by the quality of the content provided. The Shifter was seen as the main appeal of the entire book, and it was marketed as such. Remember that new classes don't come out nearly as often as the other features presented in the book, so this was a big deal for many loyal fans.
If a company made a product that did not meet the standards of the general consumers, then they did something wrong. I'm not saying to go after them with torches and pitch forks, no far from it, but it should be entirely within our rights as consumers to talk, discuss, debate, and review content like this so that people coming in get a good idea of what they are buying.
A bit of an oversimplification sure, but a little more accurate than comparing it to a Monopoly car. After all, it is a real car, it works and it gets you where you are going, it just doesn't have the umph and the perks that you were hoping for.
That seems to equal some of the comments I've seen.
I understand that there were a number of people that were excited about the shifter class for this book. I cannot say that it was my top pick for the book, however, nor did I expect anything from it. I was far more interested in the other mechanics, spells, races and so on. And the fact that there are large bears AND a ton of animals? That's icing on the cake.
So yeah, a Ford Focus isn't everyone's cup of tea. With a little modding, a little work on the engine and some after market changes (3PP, further expansions by Paizo) who knows. It might be far better than folks think.
Yeah ignoring feats, and abilities like rage sure make things look like trap classes. By that standard barbarians and Fighters are utterly useless too...
Painful bugger any reason why you didn't pump wisdom a bit more to qualify for the mutated form (Or something like that) feat at 7 giving you an extra scaling attack?Looking at the feat again myself, I can imagine why not. The feat has a Wisdom requirement of 19. That seems like a great option for a Feral Hunter or a Druid, but a terrible one for a Shifter.Oh I just was throwing something together and didn't give much thoughts to feats. I just thought of some stats a Shifter that's focuses on melee would choose and gave them to the druid.
BTW someone asked me to compare to Feral Hunter. Same stats and magic items up until 8th level.
25 point buy
Race: Half-orc
Base: Str 16(+3), Dex 16(+3), Con 16(+3), Int 12(+1), Wis 12(+1), Cha 7(-2)
Damage (min/avg/max)** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Yikes. Well, at least I know where to turn for a Martial Shapeshifter from now on. I initially wrote off Feral Hunter for all the summoning-related stuff, so I feel pretty dumb now.
Except that he's going off a 25 point buy. starting with a 16, putting the +1 in it at four and grabbing a +2 headband for a few thousand gold seems a steal for more AC/Will saves/+ a full Bab scaling damage attack.
Yeah, it'd probably end up being pretty worthwhile. Shifter could grab it earlier, but I think the most it'd to is help them keep up with a Druid or a Shifter a little better. Once they got to level 9 (and grabbed it themselves) it'd fall back to the same gap as it is in his, I'd wager.
Has anyone compared the Shifter to the Unchained Monk? That would probably be the most comparable previously existing class.