Guns & Gears Playtest Analysis

Monday, February 22, 2021

Hey everyone! Michael Sayre here, ready to discuss the Pathfinder Guns & Gears playtest that just wrapped up! We’ve had some time to go over the survey results and contextualize all of the amazing posts, videos, and playtest reports you all shared during the course of the playtest. Now that we’ve had a chance to go over that data ourselves and make some decisions, we’re here to talk to you a bit about the direction we’d like to take. Keep in mind, while we’re going to talk about some broad points here, there are likely to be dozens of little changes throughout both classes—covering everything from adding more feats and class options to minor tweaks in the way existing abilities or options function. Just because we don’t mention something here doesn’t mean it won’t get some kind of love and attention during development. We’re just hitting the highlight reel! Also, feel free to stick around to the end of the blog to check out a preview of one of the cool new options that’ll be included in the final release of Guns & Gears!

Gunslinger

pathfinder guns and gears second edition playtest gunslinger iconic with a large rifle over her shoulder

Not surprisingly, a lot of the feedback on the gunslinger focused on the execution of firearms and the Reload mechanic. We also collected some really remarkable data related to the gunslinger ways, so I want to be sure to spend some time exploring what that data could mean for us going forward. Finally, I’m going to talk a bit about the types of gear that weren’t present in the playtest, but that should have a significant impact thanks to inclusion in the final release.

Firearms: Firearms remain a divisive subject when it comes to fantasy roleplaying games, and this particular iteration was no exception, though we did learn some interesting information. The first and most relevant data point suggests that the version of guns we have in the playtest are far and away the most popular choice for how people want to see firearms executed in this edition, so we’re going to stick pretty close to that model. That being said, there are opportunities for improvement here.

The first thing I’ll note is that the final version of Guns & Gears is going to have more than double the number of firearms than the playtest had. This is going to include things like one-handed scatter weapons and guns that fire big, relatively slow-moving rounds that have a higher base damage die but no fatal property. We also plan to incorporate quite a few other variations on the theme that you’ll have to wait to see more of in the final book!

We also embraced a conservative approach to firearm design going into this playtest, keeping the ranges very tight to represent the relative inaccuracy of these kinds of smooth bore weapons and using primarily preexisting weapon traits that people already know how to use. As we go through and develop all of the firearms, we’ll consider opportunities to explore these options: such as extending the range of a few different weapons, potentially introducing new traits that do a better job of telling the story of a firearm, and addressing small oversights in the playtest options. For example, the penalty and action cost for unsteady probably shouldn’t apply to a prone character, so adding that clarification should enhance the usability of unsteady weapons while also adding interesting new dynamics to feats like Hit the Dirt!

Reload: Reload times inspired a lot of constructive debate during the playtest. Many people found that they were an important part of the story of firearms and greatly preferred the tone and era of weapons we used in the playtest, feeling that they were a more natural fit for a fantasy world than things like revolvers and cartridge-loaded rifles. Others felt like the action cost of reloading was a real stumbling block that got in the way a player making the character they wanted. Running Reload was an incredibly popular feat choice for really helping people maximize the value of that action. Consequently, we’re looking at granting each of the gunslinger ways their own unique Reload action. For example, gunslingers who choose the way of the sniper could receive a built-in action to Reload and Hide or Take Cover. We’ll also likely use some of the additional feats that will appear in the final version of the class to expand your options for more robust Reload activities even more, giving gunslingers a highly efficient action economy with lots of ways to interact with the battlefield.

Gunslinger Ways: So, normally in any playtest for a class that has multiple “subpath” options, there’s a clear first-place choice that selected significantly more often by players. That was not the case with the gunslinger ways. While there were small variations between the number of people choosing a given way, they were each so close to a third of the total respondents that it was clear that each of these concepts has just as much draw and appeal as the others. As a result, it’s pretty likely that each of these ways will be present in the final release, though with some changes informed by the experiences from this playtest. A lot of the feedback we received also suggested some possibilities for new ways that weren’t featured in the playtest, so we’ll be looking into those as well. Expect these concepts to stick around but their execution to evolve in multiple ways (pun intended) going forward.

Gear: This is one area where I wish we’d just had a little more time before the playtest to show you what we’ve got lined up, as I think that would have had a really positive impact on some playtesters’ experiences. That said, I think this is as good a place to give you a sneak peek at what’s ahead as any. First, let me just say this. Yes, we plan to include bayonets in the final release.

More than that, we’re looking at an entire section of the book that explores black powder and the things you can do with it (like leaving a trail of powder you can light on fire to blow up a powder keg) and the things you can’t (like igniting it underwater). We are going to include cool options and accessories you can use to customize your gun, though, and that’ll feature options for using your preferred weapon in just about any environment, including underwater. We’re looking at all kinds of choices for accessories, from scopes to holsters, bandoliers to weaponized bipod/tripods, and just about anything else you can think of to customize your gunslinger. There’s always going to be more cool ideas for a product than you can fit into the page count, but we’ll continue to provide players as much variety and as many unique avenues for their character builds as we can.

And that’s about all I’ve got for you at the moment. I’ll pass this over to Mark so he can talk about the inventor!

Inventor

pathfinder guns and gears second edition playtest inventor iconic with with a small construct

Hi everyone! Mark Seifter here for a post-playtest report for the inventor class. I want to start off by thanking you all so much for your feedback, and especially for the way you've given it to us. At the start of the playtest, I mentioned that since we had two playtests so close to each other, we needed the community's help to avoid too many circular arguments and focus on new data and analyses on various topics. And boy did you deliver! So thank you for giving us great data, ideas, and feedback. This helps make it easy for us to follow along and incorporate your ideas. In terms of the ratio of insights to arguments, this playtest has one of the best I've ever seen, and that starts with you.

Overall people really liked the inventor, almost as much as the swashbuckler with a big gap before the summoner, gunslinger, and a few others that are clustered below. But that doesn't mean that there aren't things about the class that need to change. Brigh knows, I even announced in the “Welcome to the Inventor” thread that unstable had to change after we accidentally didn't use the version asked about in the survey! Thank you for bearing with me on this journey and also at looking past the roughness with unstable to really dig deep on every other aspect of the class, which needed a close eye too.

Unstable: The unstable trait will change. My goal is to make the trait present a gamble that weighs risk versus reward. Unlike the playtest version, you'll always get to perform the action when you take the risk. The gamble will be whether something goes wrong, causing something bad to happen in addition to the action succeeding. I have one very exciting idea for this that I can't share yet until I'm sure it works. In the meantime, if you want to keep playing your inventor in your home game, you can just roll the flat check after you use the unstable ability (including the first time) to see if you can use it again. I'm hoping the final version will be more exciting than that, but that should work okay for now.

Gadgets: We will be adding a fun gadgets feat path for the inventor to make special gadgets each day! It won't be mandatory, as most playtesters expressed that they didn’t want it to be. It will be nice to include it as an option so a player can opt in to the complexity that comes with having to read through a big gadget section.

Innovations: Playtesters asked for more options for modifications and feats for innovations, and the final version will add more of them. All of you inventor playtesters really captured the weird science vibe and had some great ideas, and I took careful and extensive notes. For example, giving the construct companion with a ranged attack a "turret mode" option sounds like a lot of fun, and playtesters had some great ideas for ways to increase the construct's abilities at the expense of the inventor's actions. This helps lend support the playstyle of inventors who want to hang back and let the construct do the work. In that vein, I'm strongly considering giving the construct innovation inventor the baked in ability to spend two actions to give the construct three. This will allow the construct to move and Explode, for example, and helps avoid friendly fire.

Overdrive: While the inventor's special powers are dispersed throughout several abilities, playtesters were interested in consolidating a little more of them into Overdrive, and that's something I'm definitely looking into. If that occurs, expect to see Overdrive scale a bit more than it does now, especially on a success. Hopefully, I’ll be able to do so just enough to make a big difference.

These are just a few of the ways in which I'm tinkering and tweaking my invention thanks to your notes and efforts. In the end, expect the class to look extremely similar to the way it does right now, except with several little improvements in almost every area that will really add up in the long run.

Thanks for reading! For sticking to the end, we’re throwing in an advance treat from the book, an intelligent weapon! The final version is very likely to be one of the new types of gun in the book, but this version for the blog uses the basic pistol so you can throw it into your game right away and have it start mouthing off at enemies.

Sunken Pistol — Item 8

Rare, CN, Arcane, Enchantment, Intelligent

Usage held in 1 hand; Bulk 1
Perception +12; precise vision 30 feet, imprecise hearing 30 feet
Communication speech (Common)
Skills Intimidation +19, Navigation Lore +14, Sailing Lore +14
Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4
Will +16

A sunken pistol is imbued with the unfulfilled desires and insatiable greed of its previous wielder, a notorious pirate drowned at sea. Once a beautiful and artistically wrought weapon, a sunken pistol is coated in a fine layer of dried salt and is encrusted with barnacles. Each shot fired from this +1 striking flintlock pistol is coated in a layer of salty ectoplasm, and has the effects of a ghost touch rune. You can shoot the sunken pistol underwater, even when using black powder ammunition.

A sunken pistol urges you to amass a horde of treasure even a dragon would be proud of. The methods used to acquire these riches matter not to the greedy pirate pistol, so long as you amass and hoard excessive wealth. Above all else, a sunken pistol desires the return of its own treasure, which might rest in the wreck of its sunken ship’s hold or be hidden on a dangerous island.

In pursuit of treasure, a sunken pistol offers nautical and navigation advice to you, though it refuses such aid during less lucrative ventures. If you prove a profitable partner, the sunken pistol aids you in combat by Demoralizing your opponents (see the first Activation below). If you prove charitable or unwilling to retrieve its treasure, the sunken pistol turns its ire on you, Demoralizing you during combat until you relent. If you repeatedly refuse the sunken pistol, it would be wise to not accept water breathing from it, as it might attempt to drown you to allow a more suitable wielder to acquire it from your corpse. The sunken pistol can use the following activations.

Activate [one-action] command; Frequency once per minute; Effect The sunken pistol curses and insults a creature it can see, attempting an Intimidation check to Demoralize that creature.

Activate [three-actions] command; Frequency once per day; Effect The sunken pistol casts water breathing on you as a 3rd-level arcane spell. The sunken pistol can Dismiss this spell, so be sure to keep the gun happy if you’re relying on its good graces to breathe!

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Pathfinder Second Edition
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Grand Archive

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Huzzah!

blog wrote:
For example, gunslingers who choose the way of the sniper could receive a built-in action to Reload and Hide or Take Cover.

Nice! I gave that exact feedback on my open survey! :3

Seems like I was not the only one thinking that. :3

Dataphiles

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Nice, having non fatal big irons and reload+x actions fixes most of my issues with the gunslinger.

Fingers crossed for Reload Ace as a level 1 class feature and the ability to reload with both hands full.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Unique reload actions. Nuff' said.


I'm a definite fan of ways to make reloading feel like less of a tax. Although I have another question about the survey, if that's possible?

One of the survey questions asked about Legendary Weapon prof on the gunslinger (as opposed to some other feature). Was their any consensus in the surveys on that questions?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I know that braces of firearms were also talked about in the play test. Is that being kept under wraps until the book gets published?

Dark Archive

Very cool.
I am looking forward to playing these characters, and now Black Jak Sparrow, my Tengu pirate, has a gun to work towards (yeah, I know it probably won't be PFS legal)!


Unicore wrote:
I know that braces of firearms were also talked about in the play test. Is that being kept under wraps until the book gets published?

It's possible, but I think that's a lot harder to make work with runes, etc. Reload action economy abilities are easier to add and be fairly sure they're balanced.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Sounds great! Very excited to see these final products. :)

Paizo Employee Designer

10 people marked this as a favorite.
Unicore wrote:
I know that braces of firearms were also talked about in the play test. Is that being kept under wraps until the book gets published?

That'd fall under that expanded gear category with bandoliers and what not, still very much on the table but part of the development cycle now.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I hope sword-and-gun builds get some love. I played two of them, including brace-of-guns, and it was rough.

Both classes were still rather fun. Looking forward to the book's release!


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks to inventor, I can pretend to be a character from Jojo's part 1!

Seriously, shout out the name of any weapon followed by overdrive.

LONGSPEAR OVERDRIVE
GREATCLUB OVERDRIVE
DAGGER OVERDRIVE

TELL ME HOW RIGHT I AM


5 people marked this as a favorite.
MellowDramatic wrote:

Thanks to inventor, I can pretend to be a character from Jojo's part 1!

Seriously, shout out the name of any weapon followed by overdrive.

LONGSPEAR OVERDRIVE
GREATCLUB OVERDRIVE
DAGGER OVERDRIVE

TELL ME HOW RIGHT I AM

Not to mention, "You failed to account for... this!" might as well be "Your next line is going to be..."

Then we just bring in the Summoner for Stands... Shouldn't be too hard to run a proper Bizarre Adventure.


11 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd hate to be overly pessimistic, but I'm surprised that a revolver option for the gunslinger was unpopular. I understand that we're ostensibly in a fantasy setting, but a gunslinger without a revolver sounds crazy to me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I loved the playtest inventor, and look forward to seeing the final version!


Little bummed we don't get to hear what the idea is for unstable in the final version, but I understand why it's being withheld. Very curious to what the penalty would be - something simple like taking damage, or more severe that locks the inventor out of unstable actions?


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Guns with larger damage dies without fatal seems like a good compromise. Action economy hacks to bring it in line with bow fighters will have me satisfied with gunslinger performance


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MySmoothFace wrote:
I'd hate to be overly pessimistic, but I'm surprised that a revolver option for the gunslinger was unpopular. I understand that we're ostensibly in a fantasy setting, but a gunslinger without a revolver sounds crazy to me.

Same. In 1e, we had revolvers as advanced firearms.

I figure they might end up with some revolver or revolver-like firearm as an advanced firearm. Capacity 4 to 6 with reload 2 or 3.

Maybe at least a pepperbox or double-barreled pistol.


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Zero the Nothing wrote:
MySmoothFace wrote:
I'd hate to be overly pessimistic, but I'm surprised that a revolver option for the gunslinger was unpopular. I understand that we're ostensibly in a fantasy setting, but a gunslinger without a revolver sounds crazy to me.

Same. In 1e, we had revolvers as advanced firearms.

I figure they might end up with some revolver or revolver-like firearm as an advanced firearm. Capacity 4 to 6 with reload 2 or 3.

Maybe at least a pepperbox or double-barreled pistol.

While I am not reveling in it, I am not disappointed to see revolvers go. I love steampunk stuff in my fantasy, but I always felt that revolvers were a bridge too far, unless the setting *ahem* revolves around that. But, Golarion/Lost Omens doesn't really do that, even though it does makes allowances for cannons and steampunk; even those are only in certain areas and are Uncommon at best.


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It's tricky to balance "gunslingers are viable when they spend an action after each shot to reload" with "gunslingers can get guns they don't need to reload very often."

Given the choice between "gunslingers are balanced around single shot guns" and gunslingers are balanced around belt-fed machine guns" I'd prefer the former and to just manage the latter by making advanced guns generally unavailable.

Dark Archive

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Inventor having a Gadget feat line is great and all. I just hope I don't have to eat up all my feats to make/keep them relevant.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

A little disappointed about the answers regarding Reload. Running Reload is a nice feat, but it doesn't address the problem of reload weapons falling way behind non-reload weapons and it's a fix that only helps classes that get access to that feat.

It sort of sounds like we're going to have that 1e paradigm of guns being intentionally terrible and gunslingers getting options to make them work, which really sucks and I feel like goes against what we've heard from developers in the past about how simple and martial weapons are intended to be balanced.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

honestly really glad on a few things revolves are out they're sticking to black powder era. they'll have a section on black powder & higher base damage firearms


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Note that in Earth history, revolvers go all the way back to the 1500s.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Not that it maps well to Golarion's history, being a much longer timeline.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Very disappointed in the lack of revolvers.
If a crossbow can be balanced with a longbow I am certain they can figure out a way. Even if its a rare/ unique variant I hope we get some sort of multi-shot fire-arm. I can homebrew it easily enough but it feels strange that I would have to.

Grand Lodge

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I liked the new gunslinger. I was mostly in agreement with the opinions on the forums. My only issue is that some of the basic abilities of the class were a little over the top and cartoony to me. I don't have an issue with that playstyle as a feat or feat chain but I'd rather the basic class abilities were a little more grounded.

I'm fine with the basic game being built around flintlock era weapons but I really hope we get the same spread of firearms that we got in PF 1E. I want the game to work with early, advanced and modern firearms. I think it's always a better idea to build the functionality into the foundation rather than try to bolt it on later even if there aren't any plans to have modern firearms in the game any time soon. (See class archetypes as an example of this philosophy.) Just make advanced firearms rare and modern firearms unique and we get the best of all worlds.

I liked the Inventor class a lot! I've been wanting a class like that since 3E! I would like to see an option for a less "mad scientist" inventor though. I want to play a highly skilled inventor who knows exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it. It would also be cool to have specific fields or areas of expertise that an inventor could specialize in to add more flavor.

Overall I'm really happy with the overall classes and firearms. I'm excited to see the final versions.

I absolutely noticed a lot less vitriol on the forums for this playtest. Good job everybody! We should be like that for all the playtests, maybe?


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It's good to see there will be options for people who want to use firearms without dealing with the swingyness of the current ones. Making Gunslinger into the dedicated reload class is pretty interesting too, although I hope other classes will get some more support for Reload too.
It's kinda sad the Inventor playtest was marred by the Unstable misprint.
Glad to see gadgets are an optional part of Inventor too. There are plenty of character concepts that don't really mesh well with it, so their being opt-in is great. Didn't really trading away proficiencies for them either. One Alchemist is more than enough.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Great news, can't wait for the final product.

One question, though. We already have extant Paizo artwork depicting revolvers, and have for some time. It would seem counterproductive not to include rules for such weapons with the final release, even if the baseline is single-shot muzzle-loading cartridge-based firearms.

Pepperbox pistols, with multiple barrels, are also a thing, and could fill an intermediate role between single-shot guns and true revolvers, either cap and ball muzzle-loaders or more advanced rear-loading metal cartridges.

Lastly, given the popularity of pirate-themed adventures, we really need rules for artillery like ship's cannons - even if they are assumed to be rare in the current Golarion setting. Historically, cannons were contemporary with hand-held firearms, or even pre-dated them, and were present in limited numbers as early as the 14th century, primarily as anti-personnel weapons. By the 16th century, some navies were sporting heavier cannon on lower decks that could actually damage enemy vessels. Given this historical precedent, if relatively advanced hand-held firearms are in play, some provisions ought to be made for gunpowder artillery.

Great work so far, Paizo. Can't wait to see the final release.


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I kinda hope they adress the problem of damage for the gunslinger, since they dont really adress that under firearms. While i generally like how the firearms work i also feel like they are way way too behind bows. They might be balanced against Crossbows but crossbows famously suck. Would be sad if you play a unslinger and use something that is objectively worse than a bow.

And while damage isnt everything obviously it seems like the gunslingers niche. The classes defenses are worse than a fighters and they need something to compensate here. As it is i think an archer fighter blows gunslinger out of the water in both the damage and the defense department and honestly probably even utility whise. The damage feats that gunslinger got where really unimpressive compare to double or tripple shot that fighter has.

I do like giving the gunslinger ways specific reloads! I also suggested that and really like the idea. On the matter of that i also hope they adress reloading weapons with full hands. The playtest seems to advertise dualwielding weapons so much but then give very little support to it.


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As a note, they don't say in the blog that they aren't going to include revolvers in G&G, just that that's not the direction Gunslinger will be focused on, which is pretty expected given that was how they functioned before, and it's easier to play up to revolver-style firearms rather than convince people to trade down to barrel-loaded ones.

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Candlejake wrote:
I kinda hope they adress the problem of damage for the gunslinger, since they dont really adress that under firearms. While i generally like how the firearms work i also feel like they are way way too behind bows. They might be balanced against Crossbows but crossbows famously suck. Would be sad if you play a unslinger and use something that is objectively worse than a bow.

Firearms in the playtest deal less damage as a downside to having the fatal trait, but the feedback about this paradigm was mixed.

Sounds like we're going to get an array of higher damage guns without fatal? I hope we did a good selection. I'm all for stronger single-shot damage, but relying on crit-fishing doesn't really feel good in a weapon that needs reloaded.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Interesting thoughts, I'm still eager to see how they will handle needing a free hand to reload but weilding weapons in both hands, the unintutiveness of them saying that the pistolero ISN'T the best way for someone weilding two pistols, and the fact ath people who want ot use the blunderbuss gotta choose sniper becasue that's the only one that deals with weilding a two-handed weapon, that just don't make sense.


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I do hope there will be some modern style guns. the range of late 1800 to 1920s. while many people don't like guns, please consider those of us that want to rock a tommy gun that we acquired by visiting earth. and if I recall, earth should be in the early 1920s now...wow the thompson is 100 years old.


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Glad to hear about reload improvements and non fatal firearms. I have very high hopes for the future of this class.

It bugs me a little bit the omision of the Firearm Ace and mandatory feat picks topic. Hope they address it in some way.

I also have great expectations in how the final iteration of the Inventor will end up being. It had its rough edges but the same is true for uncut diamonds.

I'm really hyped for this book.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Cyrad wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
I kinda hope they adress the problem of damage for the gunslinger, since they dont really adress that under firearms. While i generally like how the firearms work i also feel like they are way way too behind bows. They might be balanced against Crossbows but crossbows famously suck. Would be sad if you play a unslinger and use something that is objectively worse than a bow.

Firearms in the playtest deal less damage as a downside to having the fatal trait, but the feedback about this paradigm was mixed.

Sounds like we're going to get an array of higher damage guns without fatal? I hope we did a good selection. I'm all for stronger single-shot damage, but relying on crit-fishing doesn't really feel good in a weapon that needs reloaded.

The problem is that mathematically the improved DPR from Fatal on a crit doesn't come anywhere near offsetting the reduced DPR from Reload 1, even against enemies that are significantly lower level than the Gunslinger.

Combined with the low range, and the fact that bows have Deadly d10 which ends up mostly outdamaging Fatal on crits from 12th level onwards (which I really don't like from a design perspective), the entire baseline that guns were balanced at is significantly below bows. The fact that this wasn't even mentioned in the analysis is worrying to those for whom this was THE issue with Gunslingers as a class.

Furthermore, there was an Advanced crossbow released in the Lost Omens Ancestry Guide which repeats many of the problems of crossbows with regard to damage (though it has a bit of versatility with Modular, I don't think it makes up for being generally worse than a Longbow while being Advanced). Because of this, it may be the case that this is truly the intended power level of reload weapons, which would be very disappointing.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Candlejake wrote:

I kinda hope they adress the problem of damage for the gunslinger, since they dont really adress that under firearms. While i generally like how the firearms work i also feel like they are way way too behind bows. They might be balanced against Crossbows but crossbows famously suck. Would be sad if you play a unslinger and use something that is objectively worse than a bow.

And while damage isnt everything obviously it seems like the gunslingers niche. The classes defenses are worse than a fighters and they need something to compensate here. As it is i think an archer fighter blows gunslinger out of the water in both the damage and the defense department and honestly probably even utility whise. The damage feats that gunslinger got where really unimpressive compare to double or tripple shot that fighter has.

I do like giving the gunslinger ways specific reloads! I also suggested that and really like the idea. On the matter of that i also hope they adress reloading weapons with full hands. The playtest seems to advertise dualwielding weapons so much but then give very little support to it.

the description for the book mentions siege engines were are definitely going to see canon's & the like


Perpdepog wrote:
As a note, they don't say in the blog that they aren't going to include revolvers in G&G, just that that's not the direction Gunslinger will be focused on...

That's what I'm saying. I'd expect them to have revolvers & rifles, but they'll probably be Rare rarity instead of just Uncommon. Don't expect them to be easy to get, if you can get them at all.

Now if you're in a game where those rarer, higher capacity guns are more commonplace, just don't take a whole bunch of reload feats.


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Cool- I'm happy to see that firearms are being kept to a bit more of a fantasy feel than in PF1. While they're not really my jam, the flavor here is nicer to play alongside than the rapid-swap alchemical cartridge free-action shenanigans. The fixes to the gunslinger ways are very welcome, and it sounds like the class will be taking its spot as the reload specialist. (If I always want to go Ranger for crossbows, something's probably off.)

I was hoping for Inventor to get gadgets baked into the class, but having some more interesting feats available regardless of innovation is nice too. Very glad to hear about the construct innovation Inventor being able to hang back more! Still concerned about its accuracy, but if I'm providing more utility with gadgets it's less of a concern. And, of course, we knew about unstable actions getting fixed.

Liberty's Edge

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Djinn71 wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
I kinda hope they adress the problem of damage for the gunslinger, since they dont really adress that under firearms. While i generally like how the firearms work i also feel like they are way way too behind bows. They might be balanced against Crossbows but crossbows famously suck. Would be sad if you play a unslinger and use something that is objectively worse than a bow.

Firearms in the playtest deal less damage as a downside to having the fatal trait, but the feedback about this paradigm was mixed.

Sounds like we're going to get an array of higher damage guns without fatal? I hope we did a good selection. I'm all for stronger single-shot damage, but relying on crit-fishing doesn't really feel good in a weapon that needs reloaded.

The problem is that mathematically the improved DPR from Fatal on a crit doesn't come anywhere near offsetting the reduced DPR from Reload 1, even against enemies that are significantly lower level than the Gunslinger.

Combined with the low range, and the fact that bows have Deadly d10 which ends up mostly outdamaging Fatal on crits from 12th level onwards (which I really don't like from a design perspective), the entire baseline that guns were balanced at is significantly below bows. The fact that this wasn't even mentioned in the analysis is worrying to those for whom this was THE issue with Gunslingers as a class.

I feel this is the issue with reload weapons vs bows. Not with the Gunslinger class itself.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Djinn71 wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Candlejake wrote:
I kinda hope they adress the problem of damage for the gunslinger, since they dont really adress that under firearms. While i generally like how the firearms work i also feel like they are way way too behind bows. They might be balanced against Crossbows but crossbows famously suck. Would be sad if you play a unslinger and use something that is objectively worse than a bow.

Firearms in the playtest deal less damage as a downside to having the fatal trait, but the feedback about this paradigm was mixed.

Sounds like we're going to get an array of higher damage guns without fatal? I hope we did a good selection. I'm all for stronger single-shot damage, but relying on crit-fishing doesn't really feel good in a weapon that needs reloaded.

The problem is that mathematically the improved DPR from Fatal on a crit doesn't come anywhere near offsetting the reduced DPR from Reload 1, even against enemies that are significantly lower level than the Gunslinger.

Combined with the low range, and the fact that bows have Deadly d10 which ends up mostly outdamaging Fatal on crits from 12th level onwards (which I really don't like from a design perspective), the entire baseline that guns were balanced at is significantly below bows. The fact that this wasn't even mentioned in the analysis is worrying to those for whom this was THE issue with Gunslingers as a class.

I feel this is the issue with reload weapons vs bows. Not with the Gunslinger class itself.

It is. Reload 1 isn't priced appropriately as a drawback.

Scarab Sages

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So only gunslingers are going to get ways to make Reload not be such a burden? man, that's a lot of stuff to write for one class.


Its interesting to see how this one turned out. I never would have guessed that the current iteration of guns was particularly popular. To be fair, it is fairly accurate in how many lower caliber firearms tend to work - hit something vital or you are not doing much. It doesn't translate too well to something like a military musket, but close enough. And since we are also getting non-fatal firearms to fill the latter spot, I think we are on the right track. As long as we get to the point that guns are actually a viable option for some classes/archetypes - so the ranged category isn't "bows and the all the bad stuff" anymore - I'm totally down for everything. I'm especially excited about potential new traits, can't wait to hear more about that ^^.

Totally called in on the reload part ;)

The weapon customization part is rather intriguing as well. Duelling pistol with bi-pod, bayonet and scope is a go! But seriously, that is going to be one of the best parts. I wouldn't mind seeing more weapon customization in general!

Overall, while I still have some concerns, you guys have managed to turn up a good and working product every time with 2e, so I'm very optimistic. Cheers :D

PS: Btw, are you still planning with equality of crossbows and firearms in mind? And will other classes also get some related love in the book?


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Note that in Earth history, revolvers go all the way back to the 1500s.

Since Golarion is largely pre-industrial, a lot of firearm technologies are possible, but will mostly exist as "one gunsmith's masterpiece" and not "a thing that is mass produced".

Liberty's Edge

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Angel Hunter D wrote:
So only gunslingers are going to get ways to make Reload not be such a burden? man, that's a lot of stuff to write for one class.

I'm sure the book will also have other Firearm-focused feats and probably whole Archetypes that non-gunslingers can pick up that will help with this, not to mention the gunslinger MCA.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think the popular incarnation of firearms is guns existing as simple and martial weapons with an Uncommon rarity. So, basically accessible to any class and not only to Gunslingers.

Scarab Sages

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Themetricsystem wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
So only gunslingers are going to get ways to make Reload not be such a burden? man, that's a lot of stuff to write for one class.
I'm sure the book will also have other Firearm-focused feats and probably whole Archetypes that non-gunslingers can pick up that will help with this, not to mention the gunslinger MCA.

So, basically feat locked. 1E all over again.

The Raven Black wrote:
I think the popular incarnation of firearms is guns existing as simple and martial weapons with an Uncommon rarity. So, basically accessible to any class and not only to Gunslingers.

Accessible but not worth the gold.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
I think the popular incarnation of firearms is guns existing as simple and martial weapons with an Uncommon rarity. So, basically accessible to any class and not only to Gunslingers.

Making them advance shows more to the Rarity of making them work. Trust when we can point out the number of ways that it can be done to get your hands on one a little, but the fact is that the uncommon or rare fits some.

Then again, I played an Inventor with an Clockwork Owl Bear for a Companion. Really want to indulge in that one more.

Liberty's Edge

Angel Hunter D wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
So only gunslingers are going to get ways to make Reload not be such a burden? man, that's a lot of stuff to write for one class.
I'm sure the book will also have other Firearm-focused feats and probably whole Archetypes that non-gunslingers can pick up that will help with this, not to mention the gunslinger MCA.

So, basically feat locked. 1E all over again.

The Raven Black wrote:
I think the popular incarnation of firearms is guns existing as simple and martial weapons with an Uncommon rarity. So, basically accessible to any class and not only to Gunslingers.
Accessible but not worth the gold.

I will wait for the final version to make my opinion on this.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
The Raven Black wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
So only gunslingers are going to get ways to make Reload not be such a burden? man, that's a lot of stuff to write for one class.
I'm sure the book will also have other Firearm-focused feats and probably whole Archetypes that non-gunslingers can pick up that will help with this, not to mention the gunslinger MCA.

So, basically feat locked. 1E all over again.

The Raven Black wrote:
I think the popular incarnation of firearms is guns existing as simple and martial weapons with an Uncommon rarity. So, basically accessible to any class and not only to Gunslingers.
Accessible but not worth the gold.
I will wait for the final version to make my opinion on this.

sure, wait for it to be published and past the point of repair.

Grand Lodge

12 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

It’s already past that point.

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