Rogue Class Preview

Sounds pretty solid, and some of the effects sound really interesting. That being said, I've gotten no preview on how Dexterity helps the rogue in combat. I think playtests have shown the party rogue applying Dexterity to their attack rolls, but how is that done? Just via Agile Weapons by default (as in 5e), with a Feat? I'd like to hear more about this, given that this is pretty much *the* iconic ability that almost every rogue swears by!

Okay, it doesn't seem problematic, at a first glance...

Edit: Huh, Master Strike is now a 19th level ability? I wonder what will the capstone be this time...

Okay. Gang Up is the Feat that Rogues needed in 1st Edition, so they can be more effective in combat without having to be behind a foe (or have a Summon behind a foe). It's good to see they are being given that ability.

I wonder if there will be any sort of Feats that will let Rogues get sneak attacks at range....

I found the rogue!

Seems like they fixed rogues. Hurrah!

Debilitating strike moves from 4th level to 9th? That seems strange.

I was hoping for a little more details, such as examples of a few skill feats.

A little worried about having to wait for high levels for functionality. Those levels often don't see play.

So my favorite rogue in PF1 was far and away the Phantom Thief, which was also the only rogue archetype to trade away Sneak Attack entirely. So I don't love the implication that "Sneak attack is the defining characteristic of rogues" and I hope that there's an archetype I can take to trade it away for something that makes the trade worth it.

I hope a large percentage of monsters aren't immune to percision damage like they were in 1e.

Debilitating strike moves from 4th level to 9th? That seems strange.

I was hoping for a little more details, such as examples of a few skill feats.

I thought that move was a little surprising too. Who knows, maybe it's not as vital an acquisition to a 2e rogue? /guessing

I'm uncertain as to how Dread Striker would hold up. PF1 Shatter defences allowed for flat-footed on any fear status with not unreasonable investment, but most importantly, the rogue (via the rake and scout archetypes) had a reasonably reliable way of inflicting said status on the first round. Dread Striker currently seems like half of a good option, without the part that actually gets it to work.

Huh. It's... cool, I guess? It doesn't really feel all that earth-shattering, and, like with the fighter, I guess it just leaves me with a 'meh' feeling. Not that it's not cool or anything, it's just that nothing in here leaves me particularly excited or terribly interested in trying a rogue in this new system. At the same time, though, I can't say I spot any big red flags, so... good job at making something that doesn't sound bad?

I'll just have to keep waiting for the wizard preview, I guess. But the blogs keep being pretty bare-bones, so I'm not sure if that will excite me either. All the blogs just keep either not revealing anything particularly interesting or framing something in such a way that it makes the final product seem as though it won't work out.

I'm also a little concerned that some of these abilities sound like they kick in at too-high levels (in part because where will spellcasters be at those levels? probably getting class options that leave the poor Rogue in the dust if it's anything like PF1)

But I guess we'll have to wait and see whether this all feels well balanced in playtesting

I'm uncertain as to how Dread Striker would hold up. PF1 Shatter defences allowed for flat-footed on any fear status with not unreasonable investment, but most importantly, the rogue (via the rake and scout archetypes) had a reasonably reliable way of inflicting said status on the first round. Dread Striker currently seems like half of a good option, without the part that actually gets it to work.

Brawler has a free intimidate linked one their strikes maybe rogues will have something similiar.

BretI wrote:

Debilitating strike moves from 4th level to 9th? That seems strange.

I was hoping for a little more details, such as examples of a few skill feats.

I thought that move was a little surprising too. Who knows, maybe it's not as vital an acquisition to a 2e rogue? /guessing

I expect that to be a feature of the inevitable nlog post of skills, since skill feats aren't unique to any class in particular.

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Everything in here sounds pretty good. I like that they get lots of skill feats to play with, and it's also nice to get some additional confirmation that there are class features in addition to all the feats that everyone is getting.

I notice that surprise attack is a class feature rather than just an element of the way the rules work. In PF1 any character that hadn't acted yet was flat-footed until their turn. I guess that element is going away? I'm not sure I'm happy to see it go overall, but it does kind of simplify things somewhat.

I like that there are options for expanding the conditions where sneak attack is applied. I also like that they have abilities to make them slippery on the battlefield. Overall, I'm pretty excited by what I see here!

Debilitating strike moves from 4th level to 9th? That seems strange.

This is a serious concern for me; I was hoping that the Rogue would maintain her Unchained role as a hybrid damage dealer/debuffer, but that is obviously not going to be the case if you have to wait so long to do any debuffing.

The revelation that Rogues get more proficiencies and skill feats than anyone else is a good one, though. Hopefully a Rogue>Other Martials>3/4 casters>Full Casters paradigm is used to determine who gets how many skills.

So, everyone doesn't start out flat-footed until they've acted the first time. That's new too.
Also, remember that flat-footed is a condition that gives the affected person/creature a -2 to AC (first revealed in the GlassCannon podcast I believe) - instead of a separate AC value.

Awesome!

Especially like the doubled skill feats. Now the rogue really *will* be the master of skills!

Sadly, between this and the Fighter, I'm getting a distinct impression 2e won't be a game for me...

Everyone not starting out flatfooted is a good thing. That was a nonsensical rule to begin with.

The 14th level abilities from this and the fighter blog seem very... restrained. Hope they didn't tone down things too much.

I am still a bit worried about the rogue. The dependency on sneak attack to deal competitive damage is one of the main weaknesses of the class in PF1. I was really hoping to see a change here (something like trick attack in starfinder).
So rogues are still forced to jump through loops to get the same damage output as other melees.
I am also not happy that abilities like Gang Up are class feats and not class abilities. So every rogue is forced to take them at the earliest level to stay viable. That is bad design to give players a false choice of "here you can decide between x abilities, but you have to take this one or you will regret it".
And let's not even start with all the immune to flank, immune to sneak attack monsters that totally neuter their abilities.
I am also not happy that nothing is done to cover the rogues other weakness: Being forced forced into melee with far weaker defenses (AC, hit points) than other melees.

Seems like the needs for either a swashbuckler class or a vigilante class will likely be invalidated thanks to the new rogue build.

Nothing in here seems to me ill design, but then again the skills that we've been exposed to also seem to be the best aspect of the new system.

In RAE it became much easier to build functioning rogue characters because Improved Feint reduced the time to a single act, meaning a rogue could feint and still get in their two main attacks, or move, feint, and get in a single act for attacks (granted in RAE, two-weapon fighting became the de facto rogue strategy) and we can see a similar form of that with Dread Striker, but is there also a method for using Deception in its place? Instant Opening seems to fill this requirement of mine, but gating it at 14th level would mean that having a functional rogue as early as 1st level with Improved Feint is not an option. Seems even more odd considering that Dread Strike is available at 4th level and by virtue of what's written is parallel in function as far as combat goes. It takes 10 levels to substitute which skill I'm using?

Testing may prove that the level gating these things in such a way is problematic for the game, methinks.

I'm also curious about Unchained Rogue's built in Weapon Finesse and Dex/Damage mechanics. This blog would most likely have been the most appropriate place to discuss whether or not Weapon Finesse is still a feat or if DEX is being taken out of attack and damage completely, partially, or if it is integrated into the system. I would like to know that.

Everyone not starting out flatfooted is a good thing. That was a nonsensical rule to begin with.

Relevant Order of the Stick, since an OotS reference is always fun!

Sounds like the rogue is going to be the adaptable class in the game. Nifty!

I'm curious: what can a rogue do to contribute to combat on turns where it is unable to arrange for an enemy to be flat-footed? And how frequently would that be an issue?

Not a fan of the class as described or the new art for the rogue (Really dont like the footware which is unfortunate cause the old rogue was my second favorite looking Iconic). Seems like changing the look for the sake of changing the look

I am still a bit worried about the rogue. The dependency on sneak attack to deal competitive damage is one of the main weaknesses of the class in PF1. I was really hoping to see a change here (something like trick attack in starfinder).

So rogues are still forced to jump through loops to get the same damage output as other melees.
I am also not happy that abilities like Gang Up are class feats and not class abilities. So every rogue is forced to take them at the earliest level to stay viable. That is bad design to give players a false choice of "here you can decide between x abilities, but you have to take this one or you will regret it".
And let's not even start with all the immune to flank, immune to sneak attack monsters that totally neuter their abilities.
I am also not happy that nothing is done to cover the rogues other weakness: Being forced forced into melee with far weaker defenses (AC, hit points) than other melees.

So you want them to be equal to the martial classes (fighter, barbarian etc.) AND have all the skill stuff on top of that?

This does feel like the rogue lost some debuffing power to more effortlessly be super mobile and dodgy.

Sounds ok to me, but it does suck losong debilitating strike which was the main thing that makes rogues worth playing.

And for like the third time I really need to object to the name Thievery for rogue skills. Just call it something else.

The 14th level abilities from this and the fighter blog seem very... restrained. Hope they didn't tone down things too much.

Instant Opening might not seem as cool as it actually is because it might be easy to assume that it requires some kind of check (or a failed save, or a roll of some kind) in order to work. But it actually works automatically. So one action from you equals two rounds of AC debuffs and all your sneak attack-related favorites. And it's not flanking, so all-around vision-type abilities won't help them.

Please tell me sneak attack doesn't work umpteen times a round anymore... although maybe with the new action economy, two-weapon-fighting-tail-slapping-biting-horned rogues won't be so common.

Not a fan of the class as described or the new art for the rogue (Really dont like the footware which is unfortunate cause the old rogue was my second favorite looking Iconic). Seems like changing the look for the sake of changing the look

Reminds me of Etrian Odyssey's "drawing feet is too hard" art style.

I don’t know if this will take effect or not, but one of the ways to make higher levels work is to expand the feel of lower levels across more levels. In this case, it seems the devs added new options at lower and mid levels, then moved some of the mid level options higher to maintain the lower level feel.

Personally, I think this is good for the game and it would likely allow groups to routinely reach higher levels before ending the campaign.

Seems interesting.

Im really wondering what each skill can or cant exactly do in this system, cause it seems to be heavily built upon skills being very strong.

I'm uncertain as to how Dread Striker would hold up. PF1 Shatter defences allowed for flat-footed on any fear status with not unreasonable investment, but most importantly, the rogue (via the rake and scout archetypes) had a reasonably reliable way of inflicting said status on the first round. Dread Striker currently seems like half of a good option, without the part that actually gets it to work.

Ah, but thats when allies come in handy. Work together, have the barbarian or fighter intimidate the foe so you get the sneak attack. One-Two punch. I was going to point out Intimidating Strike, but that actually also makes you flat-footed.

And for like the third time I really need to object to the name Thievery for rogue skills. Just call it something else.

Yes. Please. Thievery has too much of a negative connotation. Those skills have perfectly legitimate uses, too. I don't want a black cloud hanging over the whole skill set unnecesarily.

BretI wrote:

Debilitating strike moves from 4th level to 9th? That seems strange.

This is a serious concern for me; I was hoping that the Rogue would maintain her Unchained role as a hybrid damage dealer/debuffer, but that is obviously not going to be the case if you have to wait so long to do any debuffing.

The revelation that Rogues get more proficiencies and skill feats than anyone else is a good one, though. Hopefully a Rogue>Other Martials>3/4 casters>Full Casters paradigm is used to determine who gets how many skills.

I was a little sad that Debilitations got moved to 9th too. Hopefully if enough folks say something during the playtest, we can get that moved up a few levels, if it needs it, of course.

eddv wrote:

And for like the third time I really need to object to the name Thievery for rogue skills. Just call it something else.

Yes. Please. Thievery has too much of a negative connotation. Those skills have perfectly legitimate uses, too. I don't want a black cloud hanging over the whole skill set unnecesarily.

Yes, we can't have your PCs, who have just killed 50+ people and robbed their dead bodies, accused of something as demeaning as... thievery!

Leedwashere wrote:

eddv wrote:

And for like the third time I really need to object to the name Thievery for rogue skills. Just call it something else.

Yes. Please. Thievery has too much of a negative connotation. Those skills have perfectly legitimate uses, too. I don't want a black cloud hanging over the whole skill set unnecesarily.

Yes, we can't have your PCs, who have just killed 50+ people and robbed their dead bodies, accused of something as demeaning as... thievery!

Silly Giant, goblins aren't people.

I wrote my response before reading the comments and it's hilarious to see I'm quite happy and positive about the rogue while most people seem quite upset by it.

Things I got from the blog:
* People are no longer flat footed for the first round of combat before they act.
* Debilitating effects from Pathfinder Unchained (or a variation) are now core (makes sense. I'm all for it).
* Skill monkey: I approve!
* Bluff has been renamed to deception.
* Skill feats (at least some of them) will resemble what we're accustomed to with rogue talents. Hooray!
* Class feats: Despite some very 4th-edish names, it looks like for the rogue at least we're getting class feats that are very much grounded in Pathfinder 1st edition.
* Action economy: I'm starting to see the benefit of iteratives at all levels with the -5/-10 penalty. It makes the "sacrifice an attack" abilities very competitive instead of in PF 1st edition which cost a lot to use.
* I like that they're finding ways to offer similar (yet grounded in reality) effects when it comes to spells (blank slate being an example).

Overall I'm much more happy with how things are looking for the rogue. However I am concerned we perhaps didn't get any examples of "legendary" skill feats for rogues. If they're over the top and break the "aesthetic" of the rogue, I continue to hope they'll remain highly optional and viable characters can be made by topping off at mastery for many skills (vs legendary for a few skills).

I am also happy to see no dex to damage. I hope Paizo can be creative in keeping the rogue credible without going "all classes get 1[W]+Primary ability score mod" for all attacks (no bards using charisma to attack people with weapons please. Let's have ability scores mean something).

I'm mostly liking what I'm seeing, but debilitating strike moving to 9th level is a big disappointment to me. Debilitating strike is to me what made the Unchained Rogue not just playable but legitimately enjoyable.

Having to wait until 9th level (which could take a year or two of real-time to reach depending on your gaming schedule), is just very disappointing.

That said, I'm looking forward even more to how skills and skill feats work in the game to see where Rogues can really shine.

I have a player who is a multiclass Rogue 4/Alchemist 2 in my weekly campaign and when she converts over to 2e in our weekly game, I'll have to see if she feels a qualitative difference in her character.

I'm really excited to hear that the Rogue (from what we know so far) is the de facto skill monkey of the system, and that a lot of cues from the Unchained Rogue are being taken into P2e core! Although, speaking of the Unchained Rogue, will P2e Rogues get dexterity to damage as a class feature?

I have no qualms about any parts of this. A Skill Feat at each level is spectacular. Though I am hoping Reactive Pursuit is also available to Barbarians and perhaps Monks.

The blog said nothing about Dex to damage, so suggesting that that means it definitely won't happen seems rather premature.

Hmm...

Yes. Everything still seems to be in order here.

Traditionally, rogues have been the poison masters of the game. Is this still true? Or will it be opened up to all classes?

Of course, many of the rogue's class feats also increase her fighting potential. One of my favorites is the 6th-level feat Twist the Knife. With this feat, as long as you have just hit a foe and applied your sneak attack damage, you can apply persistent bleed damage equal to half your current sneak attack dice. That's sure going to leave a mark.

Is the math being changed to make bleed attacks do anything? If you're hitting someone for 4d6 twice a round, doing an extra 2d6 each round is nice, I guess, but hardly worth a feat. If bleed stacked with itself and wasn't trivial to fix, then that might be worthwhile.

GreyYeti wrote:

I am still a bit worried about the rogue. The dependency on sneak attack to deal competitive damage is one of the main weaknesses of the class in PF1. I was really hoping to see a change here (something like trick attack in starfinder).

So rogues are still forced to jump through loops to get the same damage output as other melees.
I am also not happy that abilities like Gang Up are class feats and not class abilities. So every rogue is forced to take them at the earliest level to stay viable. That is bad design to give players a false choice of "here you can decide between x abilities, but you have to take this one or you will regret it".
And let's not even start with all the immune to flank, immune to sneak attack monsters that totally neuter their abilities.
I am also not happy that nothing is done to cover the rogues other weakness: Being forced forced into melee with far weaker defenses (AC, hit points) than other melees.

So you want them to be equal to the martial classes (fighter, barbarian etc.) AND have all the skill stuff on top of that?

Why play a martial character then?

Based on my PF1 experience rogues are not the skill monkeys they are supposed to be. Investigators and other int-based classes far outskilled them, while their niche of the nimble fighter was taken by the swashbuckler and the slayer.

The whelmingness of this, like a lot else, feels like depends on the "animal call":"immunity to scrying" quotient of skill feats. Certainly curious to see what those look like in practice.

And i don't really see the idea of a class that is only good in skills, especially if PF2 is like PF1 where in most cases only the best roll matters and being second best in everything only means you get beaten everytime by the class that is specialized in a smaller field or made obsolete by a mid-level.

From what they've said, skills are going to be a much more impactful part of the game in P2e than P1e. Not only can skills be used for initiative rolls, they've also indicated that they can, in certain cases, be substituted for attack rolls or saves. I'm not sure how that's going to work out in-game, but it sounds intriguing.