Rogue Class Preview

Monday, March 26, 2018

Are you plagued by a friend and coworker who peppers his blogs with puns and ridiculous word plays, often dessert-based? Does it bother you so much that you fantasize about stabbing him in the back, but federal and local statutes (along with those pesky pangs of morality) stop you? Well, I have good news! You can play a rogue and take out your frustrations on your friend's monsters!

Last week, Jason presented a preview of the Pathfinder Second Edition fighter class, giving you a peek into our process when designing classes for the new game. This week, I am happy to present the fighter's favorite combat companion—the rogue!

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

The design goals for the rogue were simple: she had to be nimble, skillful, and able to take full advantage when enemies are unaware. The new class design achieves this through a mix of classic and new mechanics.

Rogue Features

I'm sure it will surprise no one that the first class feature the rogue gets is sneak attack. It works much like you would expect, granting extra d6s of precision damage when she strikes a flat-footed foe. Flanking a foe is the easiest way for the rogue to make her foe flat-footed, but at 1st level, she also gets the surprise attack feature. Thanks to surprise attack, during the first round of combat, the rogue treats any creature that has not taken its turn yet as if it were flat-footed.

But wait, there's more! In addition to dealing extra damage when attacking flat-footed foes, at 9th level the rogue also applies debilitating strikes to such attacks, allowing her to entangle or enfeeble her foes on top of the normal punishment. As her level rises, she has the opportunity to expand the conditions applied with debilitating strikes and increase the number of conditions applied, leading up to a potential instant kill with her Master Strike at 19th level.

So, the rogue is a ruthless combatant bringing pain and misery to her foes, but that's only half of the story. She is also a master of skills. Not only does she gain training and proficiency increases in more skills than other classes, but she gains skill feats at an accelerated rate (one per level instead of one every other level). And while Deception, Stealth, and Thievery and all of the skill feats attached to those iconic rogue skills may seem like obvious choices, the rogue's mastery of a wide variety of skills makes her one of the most versatile classes in the game—her breadth of knowledge and abilities means she's extremely useful in every mode of play.

If you want to play a dungeon-delving rogue, stock up on skill feats expanding on Acrobatics, Athletics, Stealth, and Deception to gain skill feats that let you do things like kip up from prone for free, jump from wall to wall, and move stealthily at full speed. If you want to be a savvy con artist bilking the rich and vain, focus on Deception, Diplomacy, Performance, and Society. If you want to play a fence or burglar with a semblance of respectability, focus on Crafting, Intimidation, and the like. Your options are so rich that you can easily create a mix of these types of rogues and many further variations.

Rogue Feats

Bridging the gap between the murderous and the skillful are the various class feats available to the rogue. The few of you lucky enough to playtest the rogue at Gary Con X or the GAMA Trade Show became acquainted with Nimble Dodge, a reaction that increases the rogue's Armor Class by 2 at a whim. And that's pretty cool, but the rogue's tricks don't stop there. At 2nd level, a rogue could take Mobility, allowing her to move at half her speed and ignore all sorts of reactions triggered by movement, such as attacks of opportunity. And at 4th level, there's a rogue feat called Reactive Pursuit, which allows the rogue—as a reaction—to chase after foes trying to disengage from her constant stabbings.

Avoiding attacks and getting into position are all fine and dandy, but occasionally rogues have a hard time lining up flanking. The 4th-level feat Dread Striker allows you to treat frightened creatures as flat-footed, which is pretty good, but if you want even greater flexibility for positioning, check out Gang Up at 6th level. That feat allows you to treat an enemy as flat-footed when it's within the melee reach of you and one of your allies, no matter your positioning. If that's not good enough, wait until 14th level, when you can take Instant Opening—with a few choice words or a rude gesture, you can make a single creature within 30 feet flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

Rogues are slippery characters, both physically and mentally. Cognitive Loophole lets the rogue ignore a mental effect for a round before it fully takes hold. At 16th level, a rogue can parlay her proficiency in Deception to become a Blank Slate, which makes her immune to detection, revelation, and scrying effects.

Of course, many of the rogue's class feats also increase her fighting potential. One of my favorites is the 6th-level feat Twist the Knife. With this feat, as long as you have just hit a foe and applied your sneak attack damage, you can apply persistent bleed damage equal to half your current sneak attack dice. That's sure going to leave a mark.

All this has only scratched the surface of the rogue. In the end, this class is a toolbox of tricks, cunning, and mayhem, adaptable to a variety of situations in and out of combat. Its design allows you to focus on the kind of rogue you want to play, from a ruthless slayer who infiltrates dungeons to a swindler charming away coin from gullible townsfolk, or even a hard-boiled hunter of fugitives. It's up to you!

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Designer

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Tags: Merisiel Pathfinder Playtest Rogues Wayne Reynolds
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I'm good with Thievery, Skulduggery, or Legerdemain.

Personally I'd like the adventuring skill to have a nefarious connotation for flavor reasons and leave more legitimate uses of manual dexterity to the professional/performance skills. Legerdemain is a very good word though and if I can't get a proper fantasy tradecraft name I'd be happy with that one.

Silver Crusade

BretI wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
For those who object to "thievery" being a skill, what other name would you suggest? Purloin? Pilfer? Filching? Larceny? None of those are particularly more appropriate than "thievery," since the end result of taking something from someone forcefully, is all the same.
I always liked Security Systems representing trap skills. Legerdemain or Trickery might work depending on exactly what is part of the skill.

Security? That’s what the Elder Scrolls calls this skill set.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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I'm the opposite. I like "Thievery" way more than "Legerdemain" or "Skulduggery".


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To those lamenting the move of Debilitating Injury to level 9, keep in mind that debuffs are much more powerful in PF2 than they were in PF1 because of the >10< crit system. The type of "-2 to AC" debuffs that the PF1 uRogue got would probably be OP on a 4th-level PF2 rogue (especially if they're using a weapon with the "deadly" quality to get more bonus damage on crits.)

That's not to say that they couldn't get some kind of debuff ability at lower level, but "-2 to AC" or "-2 to attack" are very deadly abilities with the >10< crit rules.


Rysky wrote:
Security? That’s what the Elder Scrolls calls this skill set.

Indeed. That's the obvious choice if people are opposed to Thievery. :)

Sovereign Court

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Deception and Intimidate are skills, and rogues are good at skills. The ability to debuff and attack at the same time might have to wait until 9th level, but you still have three actions to split between debuffing and attacking until then.

*faints*


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Rysky wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Leedwashere wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
For those who object to "thievery" being a skill, what other name would you suggest? Purloin? Pilfer? Filching? Larceny? None of those are particularly more appropriate than "thievery," since the end result of taking something from someone forcefully, is all the same.

A bunch of us have suggested "Legerdemain"

It doesn't have the same linguistic baggage as any of those other words. The point is that the skill isn't just for taking something from people forcefully. There are more uses than that for picking locks, disabling traps and sleight of hand than just stealing stuff, and calling the whole skill set by the name "thievery" gives the impression that's all it's for, rather than just one application of the skill set.

Since it covers all that Finesse or something similar might work better, though I’m partial to Skulduggery even though it’s as negative as Thievery.

I just like saying it :3

Skulduggery.


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Leedwashere wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
For those who object to "thievery" being a skill, what other name would you suggest? Purloin? Pilfer? Filching? Larceny? None of those are particularly more appropriate than "thievery," since the end result of taking something from someone forcefully, is all the same.

A bunch of us have suggested "Legerdemain"

It doesn't have the same linguistic baggage as any of those other words. The point is that the skill isn't just for taking something from people forcefully. There are more uses than that for picking locks, disabling traps and sleight of hand than just stealing stuff, and calling the whole skill set by the name "thievery" gives the impression that's all it's for, rather than just one application of the skill set.

EDIT: heck, even the way you phrased the question shows the problem with the word "thievery" as a choice perfectly.

I've never heard of that term, nor do I know what it means. It sounds more like a very bad spelling of the word "Legendary," which may perhaps lead to tongue-twister confusion if we have Rogues that employ Legendary Legerdemain. I can picture it now: "Larry the Larcenous Letch lent his Legendary Legerdemain to loosen Lord Lucius's lockbox." That not only sounds corny, but I also don't even understand what Larry the Larcenous Letch is doing when Legerdemain is a very obscure (and therefore unrecognizable) word. Is he shaking the box, or is he actually using a lockpick to jury-rig it open?

In my opinion, this is just a Shakespeare's Rose situation. A skill by any other name functions just as well if it were named anything else. It doesn't particularly matter if the skill is "Thievery," "Purloining," or even "Dick Move Time," if the situation calls for it. As long as it functions properly and as intended, they could even call it "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," and I wouldn't particularly care.


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Legerdemain is a perfectly crumulent word.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Leedwashere wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
For those who object to "thievery" being a skill, what other name would you suggest? Purloin? Pilfer? Filching? Larceny? None of those are particularly more appropriate than "thievery," since the end result of taking something from someone forcefully, is all the same.

A bunch of us have suggested "Legerdemain"

It doesn't have the same linguistic baggage as any of those other words. The point is that the skill isn't just for taking something from people forcefully. There are more uses than that for picking locks, disabling traps and sleight of hand than just stealing stuff, and calling the whole skill set by the name "thievery" gives the impression that's all it's for, rather than just one application of the skill set.

EDIT: heck, even the way you phrased the question shows the problem with the word "thievery" as a choice perfectly.

I've never heard of that term, nor do I know what it means. It sounds more like a very bad spelling of the word "Legendary," which may perhaps lead to tongue-twister confusion if we have Rogues that employ Legendary Legerdemain. I can picture it now: "Larry the Larcenous Letch lent his Legendary Legerdemain to loosen Lord Lucius's lockbox." That not only sounds corny, but I also don't even understand what Larry the Larcenous Letch is doing when Legerdemain is a very obscure (and therefore unrecognizable) word. Is he shaking the box, or is he actually using a lockpick to jury-rig it open?

In my opinion, this is just a Shakespeare's Rose situation. A skill by any other name functions just as well if it were named anything else. It doesn't particularly matter if the skill is "Thievery," "Purloining," or even "Dick Move Time," if the situation calls for it. As long as it functions properly and as intended, they could even call it "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," and I wouldn't particularly care.

Personally I'm all for calling it "Dick Move Time"


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
In my opinion, this is just a Shakespeare's Rose situation. A skill by any other name functions just as well if it were named anything else. It doesn't particularly matter if the skill is "Thievery," "Purloining," or even "Dick Move Time," if the situation calls for it. As long as it functions properly and as intended, they could even call it "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," and I wouldn't particularly care.

I have to disagree with your assessment here, because words don't exist in a vacuum where their strict definition is the only thing about them that matters. They have connotations and associations. In this case thievery, and every other synonym you've listed so far, is inextricably associated with unlawful and nefarious pursuits. This can put a cognitive limiter on interpretation. In this case the implication is that the purpose and goal of investing in this skill set is to steal stuff, which means that there will likely be people that ignore the skill entirely because they don't want to be a thief. Even though there are other uses for these fine motor skills besides theft. Calling it something else without that baggage removes the issue in its entirety.

If all you care about is the mechanical function of the skill, then I don't understand your reason for arguing against a change in the name to make it less conceptually limiting.


Well, they're not changing one word in the whole book right now. Maybe the full release will have another name for it, but for now, we all need to just deal with the skill being called Thievery.


I could see "coming up with polite euphemisms for 'thievery'" to be a fun game-within-a-game to play at the table- refer to the skill without ever saying the name of the skill ('thievery' being the only skill that is not referred to directly by name during the course of play.)


That's actually a good name for the Skill

"euphemism for stuff a thief usually does", or EFSATUD.


Leedwashere wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
In my opinion, this is just a Shakespeare's Rose situation. A skill by any other name functions just as well if it were named anything else. It doesn't particularly matter if the skill is "Thievery," "Purloining," or even "Dick Move Time," if the situation calls for it. As long as it functions properly and as intended, they could even call it "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," and I wouldn't particularly care.

I have to disagree with your assessment here, because words don't exist in a vacuum where their strict definition is the only thing about them that matters. They have connotations and associations. In this case thievery, and every other synonym you've listed so far, is inextricably associated with unlawful and nefarious pursuits. This can put a cognitive limiter on interpretation. In this case the implication is that the purpose and goal of investing in this skill set is to steal stuff, which means that there will likely be people that ignore the skill entirely because they don't want to be a thief. Even though there are other uses for these fine motor skills besides theft. Calling it something else without that baggage removes the issue in its entirety.

If all you care about is the mechanical function of the skill, then I don't understand your reason for arguing against a change in the name to make it less conceptually limiting.

Thing is, a Paladin goes and picks a lock, you're gonna give them a funny look because such talents naturally have far more negative connotations. Hell, you'll give the ROGUE a funny look when they pick a lock. Until you realize they're a Rogue and that's just what they do.


I've got a pretty wide vocabulary and didn't know Legerdemain. I did know Skulduggery but am pretty sure I've never used it in conversation and see it pretty rarely in text. I'd prefer the words chosen to be accessible. I have no issue with Thievery, though I'm not opposed to any change so long as the word both makes sense and isn't obscure.

Note that I also like Thievery because I think it can be more generally defined. Planning a heist? Roll an Intelligence based Thievery check (who says it only has to be Dexterity?)

These *are* talents typically had by thieves, even if you're not using them for nefarious purposes.


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I'm looking forward to saying "Roll for Shenanigans" to a rogue player.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm not sure why people are claiming 'legerdemain' is too obscure a word for Paizo. The word legerdemain is in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

I prefer to keep Thievery as the term for thieves' skills and move the less suspect aspects of Sleight of Hand and Disable Device to other skills.


I agree with the issues using the term Thievery. I'd prefer a different name for the skill, though what -at this time- is unclear. However, I am familiar with both Legerdemain and Skulduggery, though I associate Legerdemain more with stage magic.

:::Wanders off to play with Thesaurus.com:::


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"Thievery?!?"
"How dare you suggest that I engage in such nefarious actions!"
"Nay, I only do heroic and noble pursuits, such as killing my enemies slowly after I've debilitated them with my precise strikes and a Twist of the Knife. Moving nimbly around them as they hobble after me, hamstrung and dazed, while waiting for the perfect opportunity to Gang Up on the disadvantaged creature with my fine and upstanding fellow companions!"
"Besides, you can't prove that I was ever in the Governor's mansion! Neither by magic or other means."

No, your trained killer and looter PCs would never debase themselves by using a skill called Thievery...


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Just gonna put this out there, but I'm pretty sure the reason rogues became rogues in 3.0 instead of thieves as they had been to that point, was that WotC wanted to make the point that you could be this class without it being assumed that you were a criminal. It would therefore make logical sense to me that we not take a skill which can be used for legitimate purposes, and slap a "crime" label on it.
Now I do rather like Legerdemain (I've seen it used in other stuff before, I think both video games and tabletop), but I'll grant it may not be the most immediately accessible name.


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If the breaking and entering skill gets named "Security" I hope that the quotation marks get left on the character sheet.


OK, here are some options:
subterfuge, chicanery, artifice, machination, trickery, ruse, intrigue

I have to admit, though, I do kinda prefer Legerdemain.


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"not-thievery" is the right name.

Paladin: hey, what are you doing?
Rogue: I'm doing not-thievery things. Totally not-thievery.


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"Legerdemain" doesn't seem to be inclusive of Disable Device at all, so yeah, hard no for me there. Similarly for most of the other terms suggested here, they don't apply to either one or the other skill.

Except for Shenanigans. Did I hear someone say Shenanigans?


Stone Dog wrote:
If the breaking and entering skill gets named "Security" I hope that the quotation marks get left on the character sheet.

If not that, maybe it's called "Security (or the sudden lack thereof)?"


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tivadar27 wrote:

"Legerdemain" doesn't seem to be inclusive of Disable Device at all, so yeah, hard no for me there. Similarly for most of the other terms suggested here, they don't apply to either one or the other skill.

Except for Shenanigans. Did I hear someone say Shenanigans?

Disable Device and Sleight of Hand have basically nothing in common and shouldn't be part of the same skill. Likewise, Escape Artist has nothing to do with Acrobatics and shouldn't be part of that skill. What I'd like is for Legerdemain or Finesse (covering Sleight of Hand, Escape Artist, Use Rope, and "tricksy" combat maneuvers) and Mechanical (covering Disable Device, Craft: Traps / Clockwork, Ride: Vehicles, Knowledge: Engineering, and siege/ship weapons) to be separate skills.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

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Spiral_Ninja wrote:

OK, here are some options:

subterfuge, chicanery, artifice, machination, trickery, ruse, intrigue

I have to admit, though, I do kinda prefer Legerdemain.

A lot of those are closer in concept to "Deception" than to Sleight of Hand/Disable Device.

And Artifice is already a cleric domain in PF1 (though that may not be true in PF2).


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like Shenanigans.

It has a properly roguish feel to it and lacks the negative connotations of thievery and some of the other ideas. I would rather not have my Lawful Good rogue (yes, I currently have one) roll for thievery.

Security or Security Systems is used in multiple other games. The one problem that some people have is it has too modern a feel for many.


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Or, you know, just keep Thievery as the name and not make a silly fuss about a name like that in a game that includes blood, violence and how best to kill living, sentient creatures. Yes, that includes your holier than thou Lawful Good character, who does just that and then loots the dead bodies afterwards.
"Negative connotations", really? A skill name that you won't even use in in-character talk. If you object to it so fiercely then just change it in your home game.


Wild Spirit wrote:
Quote:
..that increases the rogue's Armor Class by 2 at a whim

It's either 'at whim' or 'on a whim'. Please read a book before attempting to write one.

...that's it, I am done with Paizo.

I'm 95% certain this post is in jest, but even if it's not it's hilarious!


Wild Spirit wrote:
Quote:
..that increases the rogue's Armor Class by 2 at a whim

It's either 'at whim' or 'on a whim'. Please read a book before attempting to write one.

...that's it, I am done with Paizo.

Blog posts aren't held to the same standard as a finished, proofread, edited, published work. Besides, it's not like they used an entirely incorrect metaphor and got the intended meaning wrong. Chill.


Stone Dog wrote:
Legerdemain is a perfectly crumulent word.

Only if you embiggen it first. ;)

As to thievery... Larceny? Pilferage? Thievishness? Filch? Purloin? Plunder? Looting? Pillage? Stealage? Roguery? Swindle? Robbery? Finagle? Trickery?...

What was wrong with thievery again?


graystone wrote:
Stone Dog wrote:
Legerdemain is a perfectly crumulent word.

Only if you embiggen it first. ;)

As to thievery... Larceny? Pilferage? Thievishness? Filch? Purloin? Plunder? Looting? Pillage? Stealage? Roguery? Swindle? Robbery? Finagle? Trickery?...

What was wrong with thievery again?

If "Looting" were a skill it would become the new Perception. Max ranks for everyone!


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Wild Spirit wrote:
Quote:
..that increases the rogue's Armor Class by 2 at a whim

It's either 'at whim' or 'on a whim'. Please read a book before attempting to write one.

...that's it, I am done with Paizo.

Blog posts aren't held to the same standard as a finished, proofread, edited, published work. Besides, it's not like they used an entirely incorrect metaphor and got the intended meaning wrong. Chill.

Pretty sure they're joking, no?

Dark Archive

RumpinRufus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Stone Dog wrote:
Legerdemain is a perfectly crumulent word.

Only if you embiggen it first. ;)

As to thievery... Larceny? Pilferage? Thievishness? Filch? Purloin? Plunder? Looting? Pillage? Stealage? Roguery? Swindle? Robbery? Finagle? Trickery?...

What was wrong with thievery again?

If "Looting" were a skill it would become the new Perception. Max ranks for everyone!

Just to add a different perspective on the good ol' dungeon crawl

Personally, I'd like to see looting of enemies take a bit of a back seat myself. It's not terribly heroic... and in most cases not something you see in most fantasy novels either.


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graystone wrote:

As to thievery... Larceny? Pilferage? Thievishness? Filch? Purloin? Plunder? Looting? Pillage? Stealage? Roguery? Swindle? Robbery? Finagle? Trickery?...

What was wrong with thievery again?

Isn't the traditional euphemism "Treasure-Hunting"?


I've always felt that rogues were a weaker class. This notwithstanding, my favourite past characters were all rogues.

Hopefully the update will keep the general flavour of the class but give us roguish types some more kick than a situational damage boost.


CharlieIAm wrote:
graystone wrote:

As to thievery... Larceny? Pilferage? Thievishness? Filch? Purloin? Plunder? Looting? Pillage? Stealage? Roguery? Swindle? Robbery? Finagle? Trickery?...

What was wrong with thievery again?

Isn't the traditional euphemism "Treasure-Hunting"?

or archaeologist.


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Archeology! That's it. Perfect!. But with quotes.

"archeology"

Rogue: ehh... while the Paladin is away, I'm going to practice... "archeology" with this treasure chest.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
For those who object to "thievery" being a skill, what other name would you suggest? Purloin? Pilfer? Filching? Larceny? None of those are particularly more appropriate than "thievery," since the end result of taking something from someone forcefully, is all the same.

Finesse.


I'm definitely putting ranks in Yoink.

Silver Crusade

My main hangup with Thievery isn’t so much the negative connotations, but the fact that it also covers disarming traps. I mean I guess it factors in alongside picking locks but I dunno. *scratches head*


OK, so there's also this from Unchained:

Consolidated Skills:
Finesse - Disable Device, Sleight of Hand

or

Grouped Skills:
Thieving - Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Of the two, I prefer Finesse.

Liberty's Edge

Spiral_Ninja wrote:

OK, so there's also this from Unchained:

Consolidated Skills:
Finesse - Disable Device, Sleight of Hand

or

Grouped Skills:
Thieving - Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Use Magic Device

Of the two, I prefer Finesse.

Well, name aside, we know it's not actually the second one because Stealth is still a separate skill.


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Leedwashere wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
In my opinion, this is just a Shakespeare's Rose situation. A skill by any other name functions just as well if it were named anything else. It doesn't particularly matter if the skill is "Thievery," "Purloining," or even "Dick Move Time," if the situation calls for it. As long as it functions properly and as intended, they could even call it "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious," and I wouldn't particularly care.

I have to disagree with your assessment here, because words don't exist in a vacuum where their strict definition is the only thing about them that matters. They have connotations and associations. In this case thievery, and every other synonym you've listed so far, is inextricably associated with unlawful and nefarious pursuits. This can put a cognitive limiter on interpretation. In this case the implication is that the purpose and goal of investing in this skill set is to steal stuff, which means that there will likely be people that ignore the skill entirely because they don't want to be a thief. Even though there are other uses for these fine motor skills besides theft. Calling it something else without that baggage removes the issue in its entirety.

If all you care about is the mechanical function of the skill, then I don't understand your reason for arguing against a change in the name to make it less conceptually limiting.

The point of the skill is to take something from someone by sleight of hand. There's nothing really honorable or legal about it, even if just because you put a Lawful or Good sticker on your character sheet's alignment. The actions of the character define the alignment of the character, not just because the player wants to.

If there were legal and appropriate means, there would be procedures followed, and warrants of authority to confiscate potential contraband or items involved in ongoing investigations, negating the need to make skill checks of this nature for it. The fact that you can just take people's stuff, as well as plant it on others to make them appear guilty instead of someone else, without some sort of authority, is a prime example of what people skilled in typical Thievery are capable of.

What I care about is people making a big deal over nothing. The skill being called "thievery" isn't a big deal, and yet it's apparently the worst thing to happen in this game just because it has a name that apparently has negative connotations, even though Legerdemain, assuming it has an identical definition, would similarly fall under those "negative connotations" to those who actually know what the word means.

Using outlandish words in an attempt to justify what ultimately boils down to illegal and dishonorable acts is equally as silly as saying the more common word leaves a bad taste in your mouth and therefore it should be changed. The nature of the skill is what matters. Playing word games to cheese the alignment system doesn't, and therefore any connotations associated with Thievery are equally applied to Legerdemain, which as I stated prior, boils down to my Shakespeare's Rose argument.


Mark Seifter wrote:


Compared to '3 or 4' class feats, the fighter alone has more than 10 times that number (not going to be more specific because, as Jason has said, we aren't through with copyfitting, so we don't know how many are going to fit).

That number includes proficiencies right? So its 5 "slots" from the propably-maybe around 35 to get a legendary proficiency in sth?

By the way I mentioned it elsewhere but the thing that I was really afraid in this edition was that we wouldn't have clearly superhuman heroes after level 15, like it is the case with 5e (with the excepetion fo spellcasting).


D@rK-SePHiRoTH- wrote:


my guess:

stealth: people forget you're there and cannot notice you (unless they beat an appropriate check, or direct interaction occurs) usable at will and countered by legendary perception (possessed by dragons, powerful outsiders etc)

thievery: as long as you win the check you can interact with literally anything (except creatures bodies, held items are fine) for one round without anyone realizing it's happening.
If for example you have a bag of holding and enough actions you can move close to the king, use an action to place his crown into the bag, and leave with your third action, and noone knows it happened

deception: 2+2=5 big brother shenanigans - "I am flying" says the rogue. He is not, but people believe he is flying.
You basically compel people to create illusions in their own mind.

No being able to use stealth against scent, blindsense or divination?

Maybe a bit out there as an idea but being able to make yourself totally undetectable by any means as long as you don't excert yourself any more than slow walking?

Thievery is hard. Propably stuff like basically "lockpicking" doors that only open with magic. Maybe even with time passing through walls (though that's a bit out there). Reaction that steals sth when your attacked by it.

Deception. Creating Illusions is kinda problematic if your enemy can't resist. I guess everyone will have +20+wisdom modifier perception in level 20 so maybe its not that big of a deal.
Being able to trick mind reading divination would be pretty normal for that level though.

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