The Sword Emperor's page

I like a lot of what I'm seeing here.

…Except, should we really keep the term "exotic" when it doesn't really describe the purpose of that category of weapons?

Agreed. I'd prefer something like...

That aside, this article made me excited about weapons. I like how the new action economy adds more to what you can do with weapons.

...for some spells, you won't be able to apply metamagic because they already require 3 actions I assume?

I imagine each metamagic feast will specify which component it adds. If your spell already includes that component as an option, the metamagic would not apply.

Do we have any idea what being Trained/Expert/Legendary will mean for spellcasting?

The Sword Emperor wrote:

Thank you for the feedback.

Help me understand the comparison between my recommendation and D&D 4e.

The problem isn't a direct correlation between 4e and your proposal. It isn't a case of "they used this mechanic in 4e and so your idea is bad". The problem is "you're turning martial abilities to directly mimic spells" which is exactly what 4e did (martial abilities in 4e behaved exactly the same as spells) and it resulted in all the classes feeling very samey.

I can see that being a concern. I ran D&D 4e from level 1-30, and boy, how well do I recall that sensation. ("This attack hits everyone in a 3x3 square around you for 2d8 damage." Is it a wizard lightning burst? or a fighter making a massive frenzied swing? It could be either!)

I definitely don't want Feats to just feel like another form of magic renamed, but I do want to capture that same kind of compact expression that magic gets. I love the example of how Heal scales depending on which slot you put it in. It saves the time of coming up with more spells that are basically Heal+, Heal++, Heal+++. I would love to see that same principle applied to Feats. I would love it if somebody could just pick up a single Trip Feat which can, in some way, improve as the adventurer improves. As opposed to filling slots with Feats that become outdated and having to search through large lists of Feats.

While I still like the idea I suggested as a way to handle that, I think Fuzzypaws' idea below also sounds like a good one.

I'd rather most feats just scale with level or proficiency. So your Iron Will feat does more and more as you become Trained, Expert, Master and Legend in Will saves. Your Power Attack feat does more extra dice of damage as your level or weapon proficiency improves. Your racial feat granting you a cantrip or spell allows that cantrip or spell to scale as if you were a caster of your character level. Etc

Some feats of course have an effect that is naturally independent of level and always useful, like feats that manipulate how you use your actions, and so don't have to scale.

Thank you for the feedback.

Help me understand the comparison between my recommendation and D&D 4e.

Maybe an example would help. Imagine, in this idea, that Improved Trip is a Feat you could fit into a Level 1 Feat Slot. You could "heighten" it by putting it in higher Feat slots over time, which would improve the Feat (removing a penalty, adding a bonus, letting you trip larger creatures, etc.), and then fit a different Feat into the lower-level slot that you freed up. During a Downtime, you could shuffle your Feats.

Does that make more sense?

And if it still sounds like it's a problem, could you unpack how it is a problem? And whether you feel spells in PF2 have the same problem?

I would love it if Feats were treated the same way as Spells. Here is how it could work.

Each Class has a certain number of Feat spots available per level. You can put a Feat in a higher level slot for a greater effect.

Thoughts?

This is amazing.

And gives me an idea.

I'd love it if Feats were treated the same way: each Class has a certain number of Feat spots available per level. You can pt a Feat in a higher level slot for a greater effect.

Thoughts?

A divination specialist should get scry before the rogue can avoid it sure but an illusionist probably shouldn't.

I think this is a great subject for a topic of its own (because I can see this getting super-detailed), but I like that idea. Rather than playing a caster who has access to dozens of spells at every level, you play a specialist who has access to a list of iconic options that depend on what you do. You could use the existing schools as the basis for that. As it relates to the topic at hand, that would certainly go a long way toward helping niche protection for non-caster classes.

But that's just because I got used to Spheres of Power and that level of specialization for casters so now traditional vancian seems crazy OP.

What are "Spheres of Power"?

Very much agree. If spellcasters get to direct the narrative with hard coded spells, the non-spellcasters must have firm abilities to shrug off and fight back whatever hell gets thrown at them.

I like your way of putting this. Casters do have a variety of abilities that introduce new aspects into the narrative of the campaign (scrying, resurrection, teleportation, etc.), so it behooves Paizo to consider how the other classes in the campaign have “evolved” to account for a world with these abilities.

It sounds like Blank Slate is about on par with Mind Blank, which, in PF1, is an 8th level spell. And thus available right around 15th-16th level, the same level Rogues get this. Assuming that remains the case I'm pretty much on board.

Having feat based abilities on par with spells of the same level but usable at-will is pretty much what I want from my Martial Feats/Spells dichotomy. Spellcasters retain the advantage of having more individual tricks, but can only use them limited times per day, while Martials get fewer tricks that they can use at will. Seems a solid paradigm.

We already know that some feats scale, like Power Attack and that druid Thunder reaction, doing more damage at higher levels. I don't see why Blank Slate couldn't be made available at a lower level and scale itself. So say at Deception of Expert it blocks one of the scry / detection / revelation trio (whatever that means in 2E), at Master it blocks two of them and at Legendary it's all three.

Taking these two comments together: I respect the idea that epic powers should become available at epic levels, and I also think that non-casters need cool toys to play at with low levels. I think we all want wizards with cool tricks for finding slippery thieves, and rogues with clever tricks for outwitting meddlesome mages. So I’d be happy with some type of scaling anti-detection ability for rogues: at lower levels, maybe it just increases the difficulty to target them with detection abilities, or lets them shrug off detection abilities early, and higher levels eventually lead to the “nope” power. I’m not against other classes – even casters – getting an anti-detection ability, but I’d like it to always feel like the rogue is “the best” at it, in a meaningful fashion.

The classes we have had previewed so far have some cool abilities, like the Rogue's ability to just ignore magical effects that detect their location (such as scrying).

However, spellcasters in Pathfinder 1e have a lot of magic spells that can accomplish something similar, and sometimes broader, and frequently at lower levels than the non-caster classes obtain them.

This taints experiences I have with these otherwise-cool abilities that the non-casters get. I appreciate that a Rogue can shut down abilities to detect her, but I wish I got to play with that ability by the time a wizard is learning how to scry (and detect scrying).

What are your guys' thoughts?

I'm curious: what can a rogue do to contribute to combat on turns where it is unable to arrange for an enemy to be flat-footed? And how frequently would that be an issue?

This thread's really taken off. I love the enthusiasm everybody's had for this, and I'm glad I could be of some help.

Now, I've got an announcement: my group and I decided to move onto a different game.

I feel like I should explain this decision, as it might help others who are, or are considering, running the Emerald Spire.

1. The Emerald Spire is very combat heavy. If you're especially excited about running interest combat encounters, you'll find a lot in the Emerald Spire to whet your appetite. Unfortunately, I'm burned out on combat-oriented games. I had enough of that for a while after running 30 levels of D&D 4th Edition. ... Now, I'm not saying that I went into the Spire thinking there wouldn't be combat. Just that I hoped it would feel more like a dungeon crawl, or an adventure, instead of a series of combat encounters. I could have run a better game of it if I had dedicated more time to doing things like preparing battle mats and thrown myself into the combat encounters, but I lacked enthusiasm. On a related note, it's a general contention of the group that the combat encounters are too easy.

2. Players who are expecting a strong thematic connection will be disappointed. Yes, many of the dungeon levels are connected to each other in one way or another, but it usually feels like the connections were designed after the fact. My players didn't feel a great compulsion to keep going, in part because they felt like every level of the dungeon could be played out without reference to the others.

So, we've moved onto other things (Orpheus, of classic World of Darkness, if you're curious).

I might still chime in from time to time on this thread.

Complaints about Floor 6: The Drowned Level
I could not decipher the Drowned Level's layout. I couldn't keep track of the relationship between the rooms, the flow dynamics, how high each room was compared to the next, and in one instance I couldn't tell you whether one room connected to another. I couldn't even tell you which rooms had murky water and which had clear.

There doesn't seem to be a way around E7, which is a very long tunnel filled to the brim with water.

The level punishes characters who wear anything but light armor. The party tank had to walk around bare-chested, which was neat for five minutes, and then wore out its amusement.

It's surprisingly easy to toss the PCs into an awkward dilemma. Jorqual's family has claimed this floor of the dungeon. He's not evil; he's Chaotic Neutral. It's not intuitively clear why he would bar the PCs' passage, nor do the PCs have an easy way of bypassing him should he tell them to not go through. I decided that he was afraid of Klarkosh killing him and his siblings if they let anyone through, even though the PCs by this point have obviously proven themselves to be dangerous opponents. He threatened the PCs, saying he was ready to defend his home, and didn't want to let them through because, well, he lives here. The party paladin was actually the one who decided "we'll just force our way through and, if he gives us problems, we'll take him out."

For getting around, the party could use the Spire Transport Tokens, but the players at this point don't know whether the tokens are expendable, nor what happens if they teleport to the next floor. Overall, the encounter just left a bad taste in the players' mouths.

Most of the battles can be summed up as "The party enters a room with one monster. It punches them. They punch it. Repeat. Then find another monster, and repeat again." There may be better tactics, meant to account for the fact that entire room is made of water, but they don't explain it well enough to say one way or another. It's a struggle for someone like myself who isn't accustomed to running water-based battles. It's especially challenging because these are three-dimensional battles.

I actually had to scrap the level and come up with an alternative (involving a trip to the Plane of Elemental Water).

Fantastic! That stat block for Klarkosh is exactly what I needed! :D I felt the same way about Klarkosh. I'm so glad you took the initiative on this one and built the definitive version of the wizard. I look forward to using it two or three sessions from now.

Difficulty (using the Third Floor: Splinterden, as an example)
The Emerald Spire is, thus far, not a difficult dungeon. Here's how things went in Splinterden.

The party noticed the Splinters on sentry duty. The thief couldn't pick the lock to their door, even taking 20 (hooray for cat folk climb speed). He retreated; the bard used Ghost Sound to make it sound like somebody had inexplicably gotten through the gate to the fourth floor. The guards panicked, pulled the rope. The party waited a couple rounds. Then most of them charged the door, chopping it to splinters in a couple rounds while keeping clear of the arrow slits. The bard had stayed behind, unaware that more splinters were about to come out of a hidden door literally five feet in front of him. They did, swept past him, provoking an attack of opportunity: he dropped his net on one of them, and proceeded to begin stabbing them to death. The party divided its time between the two groups, quickly killing them, and forcing one to retreat.

That Splinter informed the rest of the Splinters that they had intruders. Every remaining Splinter got together while the party waited, formed a barricade at the main hallway, and set up some scouts on the other route in case the party tried breaking in through the other gate.

The party discovered the synesthesia trap, put on the Splinters' masks, and marched out to meet the enemy. They dodged a flaming barrel, rushed a large group of splinters who had set up crossbows, and handily tackled enemies who came rushing in from a door they didn't check.

The enemy alchemist tried retreating from the wizard (who had built himself as a melee combatant with defensive stats equal to the paladin for now), but ran into the jail. This, of course, caught the attention of the Gibbering Mouther.

The Gibbering Mouther devoured the alchemist, then slipped through the door and joined in the fight just as the party was finishing off the main body of the Splinters. About three rounds later, the party finished off the Gibbering Mouther.

At which point Tarrin Dars decided it was time to make her move. She rushed into the hallway with her automaton and a couple other scouts (the ones at the other gate had fled to find Hastenfar). She and her remaining forces fell in short order.

The party cleared practically the entire third floor in one long running mad dash, and this was after fighting Gorloth on the second floor without resting afterwards. And with only four party members present that session (which means they were down a man and lagging behind in experience points).

So... challenging? No, not really.

Incidentally, Hastenfar showed up eight hours later, seeking vengeance, and marched in with about 12 scouts at his back. The fight was entertaining, but they murdered him quickly.

I will say that the party enjoyed the level. It was one horror show after another. The gibbering mouther, Jareth's unattended animal experiments, a small explosion in Jareth's lab after his alembics were left unattended, and Tarrin Dars' library of blackmail (she had tried running back and hiding herself there when the final battle turned south for her).

They really hated the Splinters because I gave them a flashback where the bard (at the time a gentleman highwayman) saw the Splinters mercilessly rob, torture and kill a caravan; Hastenfar had a thing for eyeballs and melon ballers (to the point that part of the party's treasure was finding a set of three different-sized melon ballers - plated with precious metals - on Hastenfar's corpse). Tarrin Dars' philosophical take on Norgerber was summed up as "we are as locusts, stealing everything - physical or intangible - and destroying it utterly"; stealing was a means to an end. So, the party was happy to be done with them.

Also, when they discovered the wight, they gathered around its sarcophagus, and more or less whacked it back into its casket as soon as it popped out. Good times.

Re: The Hellknights' Tax
1. Give the players the option to station themselves in Thornkeep. It's equidistant from the Emerald Spire, has its own dungeon related to the Emerald Spire, and is generally lawless.

2. The Hellknights can only tax adventurers in their domain. I decided that their domain does not extend to the Emerald Spire. They really do not have control over that location. It's six miles into the woods and just as easily "claimed" by Thornkeep.

3. Yes, the tax itself is a bother. Just make it clear that it really applies only to the Mosswater Road and the route south to Lambreth.

Flipping through the adventure, it looks easy with such low CRs in the first 3 levels.

I'm glad to hear that you GMs had to soft ball the game. My plan is to run the adventure faithfully and see what happens, with dice in the open, killing PCs if the dice fall that way.

I was afraid this thing was a walk in the park.

The only thing I altered was the moon spiders and the pit trap: the former because the party had already just come off of dealing with "we can't see anything"; I didn't want to repeat myself with a gimmick they already didn't enjoy. The latter because nothing slows down gameplay like players actively checking every innocuous square of a dungeon level for traps.

Travel Time around the Echo Woods
This is for those of you whose parties are ranging around the Echo Woods; and who care to keep track of the time of day and travel time.

I'll provide the following information with "#/#" format to represent parties whose slowest member moves at 20 and 30 feet respectively.

You can walk 2/3 miles per hour; or hustle 4/6 miles per hour . For every hour (or fraction thereof) past the first, hustling inflicts 1 point of nonlethal damage to you. Each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling.If you take any nonlethal damage from hustling, you become fatigued.

When you travel through the echo woods, your movement speed is reduced by half. Therefore, you can walk 1/1.5 MPH; or hustle 2/3 MPH.

Traveling on the roads through the hilly region around the Echo Woods (such as the road that connects Fort Inevitable with Thornkeep) reduces movement speed to 3/4. Therefore, you can walk 1.5/2 MPH; hustle 3/4 MPH.

Fort Inevitable and Thornkeep are equidistant to the Emerald Spire. You need to travel 6 miles, through forest. Therefore, walk: 6/4 hours; hustle: 3/2 hours.

If you want to take a road from Fort Inevitable to Thornkeep (and thereby avoid random encounters in the Echo Woods), you're looking at a 15 mile trek through hills. Walk: 10/7.5 hours; hustle; 5/3.75 hours.

Be sure to ask your players whether their group intends to walk or hustle.

I believe that the PCs should not gain XP from the troglodytes, whether they fight them or bypass them. The troglodytes are friendly and well-meaning; not a meaningful threat; easily bypassed in an obvious and morally unambiguous manner; and have good reason to attack the PCs (justified moral outrage and self-preservation).

Giving the PCs XP for killing the troglodytes is like giving XP for slaying villagers.

I believe that the PCs should not gain XP from the troglodytes, whether they fight them or bypass them. The troglodytes are friendly and well-meaning; helpful even. You're more likely to get mugged by a shopkeeper in Thornkeep.

There's the obstacle of the Godbox itself, and the threat of being attacked by the trogs if the PCs don't play along. But think about it for a moment and you'll see that's not a meaningful threat: first, the PCs just need to give up two pounds of metal, each. I'm sure they could find plenty of that on the higher floors of the dungeon.

Second, the godbox is apparently benevolent. The only reasons to destroy it are either racism, greed (for all the treasure attached to it), or paranoia (it must have some secret evil plan).

Third, the trogs have good reason to attack: the PCs are literally cutting off the trogs' food and water supply.

Giving the PCs XP for killing the troglodytes is like giving XP for slaying villagers.

I am currently running The Emerald Spire; a super dungeon.

In running the dungeon, I have come across a few issues.

I have a question regarding XP gains on Level 4: Godhome.

Obviously the party gains XP if they kill the troglodytes and deactivate the godbox.

However, if the party is totally friendly with the troglodytes, then it appears they do not gain any XP. Is this correct?

I do not know which assumption corresponds with the expected party level for moving onto the next floor.

Notes from Level 2: The Crypts
Switching out the traps for cobwebbed floors, and hinting that it got a bit patchy in one area, proved prudent.

Once the party discovered that the spiders had these pit traps, they began setting fire to all the webs they found; and closing the doors on the spiders. Keep in mind, I'd replaced the spiders' gaseous form ability, so they couldn't just float through the doors.

Because I granted the spiders a hypnosis effect, the bard used countersong; to great effect.

The group did not discover the key beneath the bucket of blood, despite repeated hints that it had been moved recently (in fact, moved again in one instance, as they had left and returned).

Through a combination of Disable Device and Perception, the group found all of the secret doors and wandered back and forth between the walls.

The party didn't fall for any of the traps, although we came to a modestly inconclusive argument about whether the zombie in the armoire should count as a trap, technically (I thought it should).

They were fascinated by the hidey-hole that had been carved out by magic.

Gorloth heard tell from the spiders about the party entering his domain. They can't speak, but they could communicate the point well enough. When the party arrived, he entered dialogue with them, demanding that they present "the singing wizard" (the bard, because of his countersong). The party tricked Gorloth into believing that they were all spellcasters (the rogue was an "arcane trickster"). They conspired with him to kill Klarkosh (I didn't know that Command Undead meant that Gorloth would actually see Klarkosh in a favorable light).

Incidentally, its not explained whether Klarkosh visits Gorloth, or vice-versa. I assume it's vice-versa. Klarkosh can't be bothered to go visit the crypts. However, do this: after the players first enter the crypts, roll 1d6. In that number of days, Gorloth goes to visit Klarkosh (to get Command Undead renewed). If Gorloth is destroyed, then 1 day after that deadline, Klarkosh himself goes to visit. Klarkosh, in his arrogance, is dismissive of Gorloth's defeat. From Karkosh's perspective, so what if a band of adventurers manages to slay the bone priest? Hell, Klarkosh defeated Gorloth handily enough. He won't bother informing the other residents of the tower; except the undine - and only if he sees evidence that these adventurers are a real threat or of great interest.

Anyway, they tricked Gorloth; agreed to not bring the paladin with them (well, they deceived him on that point too). Then they came back with the paladin and engaged in a quick battle. Gorloth didn't stand a chance.

After that, they busted into the moon spider nursery and torched everything in there.

I had to come up with an explanation for why only six of the eight sarcophagi in the crypts had animated skeletons, and one of the remaining had a magic item that hadn't been taken. I decided that Klarkosh had done the honors, but he left two undisturbed - because they were done up in Numerian style, and he has some bizarre kind of respect for the dead from that era.

My group is a well-balanced party of four, not particularly min-maxed, and while they were challenged by this level, they made it through. Two of the moon spiders ran away and joined the fight at the end with the skellies and the bone priest and they got through that as well (although they did make their saves against every single spell the bone priest cast).

Did they fall into any of the pit traps? How did they react once they found out there were pit traps in the hallway? Did they take out the ol' ten foot pole and begin tapping five feet in front of them?

Thornkeep

As promised, here is my write-up for the Horn of Zog, which I created to replace Skizzert's Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

The Horn of Zog
This horn is shaped like a megaphone, except the mouth is sculpted to look like the fanged, shaggy face of a barghest, and it trails a "fur" pattern all the way back down it's "neck". Imagine what the guys in Metalocalypse would use for a megaphone, and there you have it. The Horn of Zog may be used once per day to cast Clarion Call simply by speaking through it. Doing so has a side-effect: an underscore to the message that every local goblinoid intuitively recognizes. This doesn't compel goblinoids to do anything about it, but curious ones may investigate; and the stupid and bloodthirsty ones may come running.

Here's a quick primer on the history of Zog. It's common local knowledge that, five hundred years ago, goblinoid armies - under the sway of three barghests - seized control over the Echo Woods, and its ruins. The half-elven hero, Tarwynna, led an army against the Kingdom of Zog; and became a local legend.

This next bit's a bit more obscure, but anybody with a bit of knowledge about the local goblinoid culture and Echo Woods history would know it: there have been countless attempts to recreate the Kingdom of Zog in one form or another. It's not uncommon for a goblinoid to arise now and then claiming to be the inheritor of its legacy; but no attempt has come even remotely close to recapturing the "grandeur" of the Kingdom of Zog.

I started the emerald spire this past weekend and managed to introduce the players to the town and get through the Tower Ruins Level.

To help the players move around the town and keep track of memorable events i printed out Fort Inevitable & Emerald Spire Location cards

At this stage I've only noted major NPC the players have met but as events unfold they'll be recorded too as will the NPCs attitude towards the players (From Hostile to Friendly).

In the folder is an editable open office version and a ready to print pdf

What is the meaning of all the abbreviations beneath each of the cards?

I'm toying with the idea of running a 5E campaign and using war-game style measurements (tape measures instead of a grid). I'm just waiting to get my hands on the PHB before I decide anything for sure.

Personally, I'm holding off on 5th Edition until they release their second tier material. That's where the game should get interesting.

We need round up John and get together for a meal. :)

Of course. Just send me an e-mail to let me know whenabouts you're free; we can set-up something.

I'd be extremely reluctant to remove healing wands from the game, since lack of reasonably priced healing consumables means you're then forced to rely on having "the healer" in your party - a concept I feel 3.x has been moving away from for some time.

I believe you will find that potions and scrolls are reasonably priced. In fact, the first two dungeon levels of the Emerald Spire contain several potions of cure moderate wounds.

If you're really hard up for character survivability, consider instituting Hero Points; it's a nifty optional system that gives the PCs some extra kick, and actually lets them cheat death.

First, a response to bugleyman; and then onto new comments!

The Sword Emperor wrote:

Tons of useful stuff about Thorn keep and Emerald Spire

First: Wow. Second: Thanks for the info. :)

P.S. Are you the Tempe, AZ living, used-to-play 4E with Aaron Sword Emperor? :)

Hey! :D There you go; that's me! How's it going, Aaron?

And now onto other news
A few words of caution for anybody who intends to run this game as a traditional dungeon delve, i.e. a game of resource management and logistics. That's how I run it; and that's the model to which I believe this conceptually aspires; but this module does not deliver that - for several reasons.

I've discovered that the Emerald Spire Superdungeon has certain features that I consider problematic for a megadungeon.
1) The Emerald Spire is only six miles away from civilization. In fact, it is equidistant between two towns.

2) The nearest settlements are small towns, which means they can easily provide the party with equipment.

3) Each floor of the Emerald Spire needs to fit on a flip mat, which means that the floors are not sprawling.

4) Although the distance between floors is occasionally significant (hundreds or thousands of feet), most floors are a quick jaunt between them of 100 feet or less.

5) The dungeon has an elevator on each floor, enabling the party to quickly return to any floor of the dungeon (including the top floor), thus bypassing random encounters, etc. They can use this elevator as often as they want once they find a key (which they should by level 2).

Here is why those features are problematic. In a well-made dungeon delve, players shoot themselves in the foot if they go nova (i.e. quickly expend their resources). After the PCs go nova, they still need to exit the dungeon, which means facing random encounters - and risking death. Furthermore: whenever the PCs leave the dungeon, that gives the local monsters a change to reset traps, bolster their forces, fortify their location, move their treasure, and plan new strategies for the PCs. The shorter the expedition, the less likely the PCs are to actually gain anything; the more likely they are overall to expend resources; and the more likely they are to make things actually more difficult for themselves when they return to the dungeon. Therefore, the players need to make a better accounting of their resources in order to get deeper into the dungeon: and this includes managing their hit points.

One of the problems with the Emerald Spire, then, is that the dungeon levels are easily completed; and it's quick and easy for the PCs to get back to town. In effect, there is little penalty for going nova.

Also, the PCs have access to a decent shopping list back in town. This isn't really a problem per se, but it does mean the party has a 75% chance of finding a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

The problem with the Wand of Cure Light Wounds is discussed at length in this thread. But the short version is that it makes resource management too easy, in some ways.

The sum of all these issues is that the Emerald Spire isn't well put together to serve as a traditional dungeon delve. I mean no disrespect to the individual levels, or the concept of the adventure; just that you have your work cut out for you if you want to run it as a dungeon delve, which is what you might expect from looking at it.

Here's a few things you could do that might make it work better as a dungeon delve.

1) Limit the elevator in some fashion. I'm personally toying with the idea that the Spire Tokens are expendable; after a single use, they crack. The tokens are fairly rare, so you might want to expand the use of the tokens to say that they can affect more than three people at once. Or that certain levels have a more permanent connection to them. Or that certain tokens work better with certain floors. At the very least, you'd want to do something like that to explain how Gorloth stays in contact so easily with Klarkosh.

2) Put the towns further away, or make them smaller, or otherwise transplant the Emerald Spire to a different place. The problem, of course, is that there's a lot of flavor tied up in the settlements near the Emerald Spire. If you mess with that, you risk screwing up the story, and creating a lot more work for yourself.

3) Just as a general matter: prohibit any wand of "Conjuration (Healing)", or at the very least: Cure Light Wounds. You'll need to replace at least one bit of dungeon treasure - Skizzert carries a wand of Cure Light Wounds with 20 charges. I replaced it with the Horn of Zog, a goblin relic containing a peculiar variation of Clarion Call. Which I will detail in a later post.

Several posters have made the point that - at least generally speaking - investing in consumables is an interesting decision; and may even be a bad idea on the players' part. If the party wants a Wand of Fireball, that's fine: they won't be able to really afford it until level 9, by which point it's the equivalent of a holdout pistol. If they want a Wand of Haste, that means they are gaining a consumable buff in exchange for giving up +3 equipment. Therefore, I am dropping the contention that - generally speaking - consumables, even wands, should be restricted or prohibited.

Instead, I am focusing on certain wands: in particular, the Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

I want the decision about whether to press on to be an interesting choice for the players; and if they choose to, then I want it to be a challenge. Managing your hit points are one of those challenges. You can tackle that challenge in a variety of ways: consumables are one of the ways to manage that challenge. However, consumables cost gold, which means managing gold as a resource. The issue is that I believe the investing in Wands of Cure Light Wounds draws on an inconsiderable amount of gold, which means that the players overcome the hit point management challenge without making an interesting choice.

Re: Nova. In a dungeon delve, players shoot themselves in the foot if they go nova. After the PCs go nova, they still need to exit the dungeon, which means facing random encounters - and risking death. Furthermore: whenever the PCs leave the dungeon, that gives the local monsters a change to reset traps, bolster their forces, fortify their location, move their treasure, and plan new strategies for the PCs. The shorter the expedition, the less likely the PCs are to actually gain anything; the more likely they are overall to expend resources; and the more likely they are to make things actually more difficult for themselves when they return to the dungeon. Therefore, the players need to make a better accounting of their resources in order to get deeper into the dungeon: and this includes managing their hit points.

Several posters have expressed frustration with the idea of characters needing several days to rest in town. I hope the above point addresses your question. For the sake of completion, I will add this: I don't expect players will be bored during the time their characters are in town. I can skip over 15 days of resting as quickly as I can skip over one day. The difference is this: the longer the PCs need to recuperate, the more time the dungeon has to change.

As I've stated it's your game and I understand where you are coming from but I have a few questions:

What do the players think?

Opinions include "neutral"; "it's fine, and sounds like it fits the style of game that you want to run"; and "good idea".

I mean are they having fun?

So far the group's having a blast. No complaints about a lack of healing, and they'd made adequate preparations before the adventure (one paladin; one bard).

Have you asked them if they think that the wands are impacting their play style or the decisions that they make in significant ways?

The paladin's player just doesn't want to be relegated to heal b*&$#; and the group is respectful of that. There's been no contention in the matter.

What does the party look like? Is there a cleric?

In addition to the aforementioned bard and paladin; the group also contains a rogue, summoner, and wizard.

If you continue to seek problems, you are certain to find them.

Next thing it will be the healing hex....or channeling positive energy or lay on hands......

Slippery slope argument. The players' choice to use those characters means they are giving up other resources - it's an interesting decision. And, sometimes, acquiring or expending those methods of healing means giving up on other opportunities (the paladin, for example, once used lay on hands to damage a zombie). My point is that investing in Wands of CLW isn't an interesting decision; and is actually bad for a dungeon delve.

Here is where I am currently at in regards to consumable magic items, based on your guys' feedback.

Consumables are an expensive investment because they are exhaustible. Players who invest heavily in consumables will usually short-change themselves in the long-run because they will struggle to put together the GP necessary to purchase better equipment. This paradigm will hold true if I enforce random treasure drops (or, presumably, go with the treasure found in the module), instead of going for wealthy by level. The PCs will simply not have enough gold to stockpile consumables and purchase other equipment.

Usefulness isn't a bad thing - and players shouldn't be punished just because they found a good deal; that's the whole point of wands, really. However, certain wands may be too useful. Wands are the cheapest of the three consumables: potions are prohibitively expensive to stockpile; scrolls are questionable; but buying a wand is like getting a discount for buying in bulk. If you know you're going to use every charge, you're getting a deal. If a wand has a save DC, chances are the PCs will scale out of it before they can burn through all of the charges. However, some wands are always useful: those which simply provide buffs (Darkvision; Haste), or "conjuration (healing)" effects, tend to get a lot of use.

A Wand of Cure Light Wounds is an inexpensive means of healing up the characters after every fight; by around level 5, a wand of CLW is a minor investment for characters; and stockpiling them becomes increasingly easy and attractive. This is a problem in a dungeon delve game because part of the challenge is resource management. Hit points are a resource. A wand of CLW removes hit points as a resource (out of combat) because the wand of CLW is cost-efficient. Players can expect to face each confrontation at full hit points, and delving deeper into the dungeon requires less creative thinking because direct confrontation and battles of attrition against a series of dungeon obstacles become too attractive.

Resource management - and logistics - arguments can be put forth for certain other wands: for example, wands of Darkvision remove the need for torches or light spells.

I am on the fence about "boring" wands, and I admit this might just be a personal bias: carrying around wands that provide buffs (Haste, etc.) just mean that the party starts every battle with a bunch of extra buffs. But that's not really a problem, I think: after all, buying that wand of Haste means giving up something that grants a permanent bonus - probably a fair trade. Though, again, there is the issue at later levels: when PCs are running around with so much gold that a Level 1, 2, or even 3 wand is a triviality: and so of course they buy a Wand of Haste then; it's an inexpensive way of getting a nice buff ("who wants an extra standard action? Everybody? Thought so").

The big hamper on the wand issue is Availability. If I follow the rules in the Dungeon Master section of the rulebook, then random items will be randomly generated. The players may want a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, but they cannot expect to find one in a treasure horde or even in a town; it's all randomized.

There are a few problems with that position, however. First, any settlement that is a small town or larger will probably have any Level 1 Wand that the PCs are looking for. Every settlement has a 75% chance of possessing any magic item below its base value; small towns have a base value of 1300 GP, which means they have a 75% chance of having any Level 1 Wand. If the PCs cannot find the wand at one settlement, chances are good they will find it at the next. You can address this by changing the 75% rule, but it's still a patch (and are you really going to say a metropolis doesn't have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds? You might as well just prohibit the wand anyway).

Also, depending on the campaign, the players may be able to craft the wands they want; or find somebody to do the crafting for them. If you're running a high fantasy setting, and have access to a city, you're bound to find somebody who has the financial resources and expertise to craft magic items (and, really, somebody is going to fill that market; and probably several people - imagine the bank you could make being the only person in a city who is crafting wands). Even if your game takes place in the middle of nowhere (and really, where is "nowhere" once the players are higher level?), somebody can take the relevant crafting feat: and at that point, you need to decide whether that is enough of a sacrifice for the benefit - my intuition is that it is not a fair trade, at least in the context of dungeon delve breakers.

Finally, rolling for wands actually isn't entirely random. Rolling for whether there is a wand is random, but the DM must still decide which wand it actually is. You as the DM cannot help but make an active choice on how you want your party

I won't prohibit potions or scrolls. I won't outright ban wands; but I will prohibit wands of "conjuration (healing)" spells; and perhaps several other wands.

Several posters discussed wands as though they were something which the DM rolls randomly. However, that is only half-true. Yes, you roll randomly to determine whether a wand is present: however, the tables do not tell you what kind of wand it is. The DM needs to decide for himself. Therefore, players never actually receive a wand of cure light wounds or pilfering hand by chance. On a related issue that's tangentially related to the scope of this thread: I realize that some spells would never be put in wands, and some spells everybody would put in wands, but I often struggle to figure out which make good sense as wands.

Reading this over I see where you are coming from OP. However, I think that in this particular case you might want to just restrict access to CLW wands. As you said there are two small towns near the dungeon. These small towns will have access to ~75% of items below 1300 gp. That however does not mean that they will have an infinite number of these items. Most likely the villages are getting these items delivered once or twice every couple of months. They could very easily sell out. Especially, if other adventurers are rolling through town on occasion.

I think I'll have an "annual restock" rule. Players have a 75% chance of finding an item; until they fail the roll. In that case, they cannot check again until next Spring.

Also, I don't like the 75% figure. I think availability would depend on the gold piece value of the item in question - but the other side of me says that this is too nit-picky.

If the PCs can get out of the dungeon any time they want it sounds like denying them between combat healing capabilities might just result in the party leaving the dungeon to go rest more often. That seems like less resource management instead of more. Making it tougher to get out of the dungeon once you're in would probably do a lot to make it a more harrowing experience.

It's normal for PCs to be able to leave a dungeon in a dungeon delve. The issue is that they often need to spend significant time backtracking. You do remind me, though, that the Emerald Spire has a shortcut: basically, on every level there is an "elevator" the PCs can use to instantly teleport to any level of the dungeon (usually only ones to which they have already been). That's bad game design from a dungeon delve perspective. Unfortunately, it's also an inherent aspect of the module; several parts would need to be rewritten if the elevator were removed. Still, I'll take it under advisement: think about ways to make the trek difficult.

OP here. My apologies for the late reply. I needed time to digest everything.

First, I will make some general comments that address recurring themes I have seen in several posts. Then I will go down the list with my responses to more specific replies. If you think I missed your reply; my apologies, please restate the observation or question.

This will be a lengthy post; I will probably write a follow-up post later on.

Most of the advice I am seeking is preparatory: we've only had three sessions of the game so far; the party is only level 2.

The Emerald Spire Superdungeon is an official Pathfinder module. Every level of the dungeon is mapped out; every room detailed; and all treasure and gold already placed. The only random elements are random encounters that characters might encounter on the six mile trek to and from the dungeon; and on the occasionally lengthy walks between floors (a teleporter allows them to easily return to the top of the dungeon after they get a few levels down, and the big walks aren't until later in the dungeon).

There are two small towns within reasonable travel distance of the Emerald Spire. I am using the random magic item rules to generate the items the players might find there; which did end up creating a few wands (although I picked what kind of wands they are). The items are scattered around town, so the players will need to know who to ask to acquire them.

That said, keep in mind that, by the rules, the PCs have a 75% chance of finding anything below the base value of the town: in this case, 1300 gold.

I honestly have no idea how much gold the PCs will have to toss around. They're level 2, and could probably rack up somewhere between 2000 and 4000 gold if they'd bothered to kill everything they came across instead of using diplomacy; as it stands, they would have maybe 1250 gold if they liquidated their magic items, and they have not found any actual gold yet.

This is my first time running Pathfinder; and I have not even played in a campaign in three years. All of my DM intuitions about the PCs gold economy comes from Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition, where treasure troves of gold and magic items are mandatory in order to keep up with the game's constantly increasing power level. I understand that Pathfinder is stingier, but I do not yet have an intuition of how much the PCs will be able to afford. From your guys' posts, I'm getting the impression they won't be buying six different wands by level 4 to cast with, while all the lightly armored members chug potions of Mage Armor before every combat, and the wizard runs around with three copies of every spell in his spellbook written down in scroll form, while the party is debating what to spend their excess gold on.

That said, my understanding is that there will come a point at which the players simply do have enough gold to stock up on Wands of Cure Light Wounds. Maybe it's level 5; maybe 7; maybe higher. The point is that, whenever they have the wand, it breaks part of the game's resource management; and when they become able to afford an endless supply of them, it's permanently broken.

The problem with Wands of Cure Light Wounds (and arguably Scrolls; but likely not Potions) is that they effectively remove hit points as a dungeon delving resource, by replacing it with gold. This isn't a big deal with potions - apparently - because potions are incredibly cost-inefficient (so I'm told). If the PCs have easy access to CLW wand, then hit points are one less thing the players need to worry about in planning out the logistics of their dungeon delve. This, in turn, rubs against the point of running a dungeon delve (if you adhere to the philosophy mentioned in my first post): the ability to proceed deeper into the dungeon should be dependent on the players' ability to manage their various resources. Gold apparently scales quickly enough that eventually the cost of a wand of cure light wounds is beneficial in light of the party's total hit point count.

You see problems like this with other spells. I'm fortunate that I don't have to worry about players checking the local stores for Wands of Knock, Invisibility or Find Traps - they're Level 2 spells, which puts them above the base value of the local towns - but in a game set near a major city, the rogue very well might wonder what his purpose is other than stabbing people in the back once the party effectively finds a "Rogue in a Box" in a metropolis. Those are examples of spells where save DCs aren't a big issue, they have a lot of utility, and the players aren't likely to burn through them quickly. In any case, "I'm sorry, but the metropolis does not have a Wand of Cure Light Wounds" will ring false to players. "They have +3 armor, but no wands of cure light wounds? Really?"

Several posters suggested disallowing divine magic, but I'm not sure how that would make a difference: bards can cast Cure Light Wounds as an arcane spell, so it would still exist. What I think you mean is prohibit "conjuration (healing)" spells.

I would highly suggest you house rule natural healing per night if you do limit healing consumables. 1 HP per level per day with 8 hours of rest. Especially in a lower level game, that is simply not going to cut it. The party will be stuck in bed rest for many days at a time after 1 good roll from a monster. They would almost autofail time-sensitive missions at that point.

I am comfortable with characters being "in bed" for several days. It's a dungeon in the classic sense; there isn't much about it - if anything - that is time-sensitive. Even if there were time-sensitive missions, part of the dungeon experience is resource management: learning to be creative in handling monsters to minimize the occasions when they need to return to town, and for how long.

This depends on what kind of game you want.

The Sword Emperor wrote:

By around level 5, they become a cost-efficient method for the PCs to heal themselves back to full health after every fight, which diminishes the endurance run aspect of dungeon delving.

Not every fight: the wand "only" have 50 charges. To heal an entire group after challenging fights it would only last 5-10 fights. And if they, without any problem, can get a new one: why are you handing out magic items?

These are easily replaceable, and easy to stockpile; see below.

Sleep can only be effective the first levels, after that the HD limit is'nt enough. And why would you hand your lvl1-4 players a wand of Sleep?

How does your players get their items? Crafting? Buying? Finding? There are restrictions to all methods: It takes time to craft. It costs to buy AND you may not always find what you want.

75% chance of finding anything below the base value of the two nearest towns: which is 1300 gold. Wands of Sleep and Cure Light Wounds are only 750 gold. Therefore, they have a good chance of getting either. If one town doesn't have it, the other might; unless I wanted to restrict it to 75% chance of finding it in the whole region, which helps, but it's still 75%.

And if they prepair by scribing scrolls, they're doing it right, it's not a problem.

It would be a problem if the ability to obtain scrolls broke the resource management of the game.

As for the Horn of Fog, what's so overpowered with fog? I know what it does, but it won't break anything unless you let it happen.

One: It's a found item that is perhaps found too early. Spell Level 1 x Caster Level 3 x 2,000 GP = 6000 GP just to create. Should have a purchase value, therefore, of 12,000 GP. Instead, it costs 2,000 GP, and my Level 2 players just got a hold of it as an easy preplaced find in the dungeon. It's simply too inexpensive and obtained too early for an item that has infinite usage.

Two: The utility may be overwhelming. This is perfect for any encounter in which the PCs are outnumbered (as the blinding effect is mathematically worse for whichever side is making more attacks per round); and the ability is endless, and travels out continuously for so long as you blow into it. Depending on how you interpret this (such as if you put a limit based on Constitution), the PCs could arguably sow mass confusion by holing up in a safe spot, sending out mist to blind everything in the dungeon level, and then hunting down groups of enemies - after which they retreat to their safe spot.

Some posters mentioned "the 15 minute adventuring day". I don't consider that a problem in a dungeon delve because the philosophy has risks: whenever the PCs leave the dungeon, that is an opportunity for the monsters to change their strategies, new monsters to join in the dungeon, and random encounters to pop up. If characters keep brute-forcing the situation, they won't get far. Mind you, I'm basing that off the way things worked in OD&D; Pathfinder gives PCs more hit points, more options, and full XP for every monster killed (even random encounters); plus the Emerald Spire isn't that big, all things considered. So, maybe it just doesn't work in 3.x games; but it sounds like that's a contentious issue, instead of a settled one.

I have not played or run Emerald Spire so I do not know the specifics. Is the place a sealed biosphere or an adventurer hotel california (you can check out anytime you like but you can never leave...)? Reading the general description implies it is a super (possibly killer) dungeon.

The PCs can enter and leave the Emerald Spire whenever they want; nothing about the dungeon itself forces them to remain inside. In fact, there are actually several ways in and out of the dungeon (as monsters from the Darklands and other planes find their way into the lower levels).

Advisement: Read the Thornkeep Supplement
People running the Emerald Spire Superdungeon would be well-advised to also purchase Thornkeep. If you want to know anything about the Echo Woods, more details about the Kingdom of Zog, other information about Nhur Athemon, or even just see what Iliara Starcloak looks like, then you need Thornkeep.

The Emerald Spire Superdungeon and Thornkeep are two products that need to be read together to get the full picture. Unfortunately, you wouldn't realize that just by reading The Emerald Spire Superdungeon; you might wonder whether there is more information on the local area, and look for a book called The Crusader Road, but that just pulls up the name of a novel. Discovering that Thornkeep contains the information you need requires a little more digging. You might realize you should go straight to Thornkeep, but only if you've read about the random encounter tables in the Emerald Spire superdungeon, which recommend using the encounter tables from Thornkeep for the Echo Woods.

Ironically, the random encounter tables from Thornkeep's book, re: the Echo Woods has a curious omission. No Moon Spiders, despite the fact that moon spiders are one of the creatures that populates the Echo Woods (and presumably with at least as great a frequency as young green dragons, which are on the table). If you want moon spiders, you have to fit them on the table; and then if you want to actually run them, you need to go to the bestiary of the Emerald Spire Superdungeon.

Then there's an issue with Fort Inevitable itself: it sits directly on the Crusader Road, but if you want an idea of what that looks like, you'll need to go to Thornkeep; the Emerald Spire Superdungeon does not have a map of the Crusader Road region. Incidentally, this means that when you read The Emerald Spire Superdungeon, you as the DM may be initially confused as to where exactly Fort Inevitable is, and where the Emerald Spire is in relation to it. Putting that together from the module itself takes a lot of cross-referencing; whereas if you have access to the Thornkeep supplement, you immediately know the location of the Emerald Spire.

This is a problem because DMs are likely to pick up the Emerald Spire module without context: there isn't anything on the cover - nor in the introduction - that suggests the reader should consider picking up Thornkeep too. This is especially problematic on the business end because the Emerald Spire superdungeon is meant to be a major product: a kind of archetypical dungeon.

A preferable way to have gone about this would be as follows: release a supplement called The Crusader Road, which describes the eponymous region: information on Fort Inevitable, Thornkeep, and Fort Riverwatch; the Echo Woods; a brief history lesson on the region, including what the Kingdom of Zog was like (because many of the ruins date back to that era); a discussion of local personalities throughout the region; and so forth.

Although both supplements have their own dungeons, you could definitely separate the Emerald Spire from Fort Inevitable. There's several quests from that town which take people to the Emerald Spire; but it feels tacked on: the module doesn't explain why Iliara Starcloak has gone to Fort Inevitable to recruit people to get back her apprentices, when she could probably find locals in Thornkeep. Also, I would think there would be several quest lines connecting the Emerald Spire to Thornkeep as well; if for no other reason than Thornkeep and Fort Inevitable are equidistant from the Emerald Spire.

The game might have been better served by putting the Emerald Spire and the Accursed Halls in the same supplement. There's already connections between the two, and having them in the same book means that DMs could easily switch between the two, and start planning out early whether or how they want to make connections. The book could have spent time balancing the two, and creating this unusual kind of dungeon, where the players are switching between these two locations as the core of solving the greater mystery of the Crusader Road. And that's actually a missed opportunity: the Crusader Road is a prime area for Azlanti Ruins, and you could conjecture that a lot of the later ruins are built upon technology and speculation about these ruins. You could build several smaller dungeons and event locations in the area, with everything tying itself back to the central mystery; for example, maybe the Kingdom of Zog got started when the barghests were summoned by the Emerald Spire's power - or maybe somebody found one of Nhur Athemon's artifacts. Eventually the players will have completed the Accursed Halls beneath Thornkeep, and gotten an impression of the kind of bad-ass terror that is Nhur Athemon; and then they'll continue down into the Emerald Spire, confront the terror himself; and learn that things go a little deeper than that (literally and figuratively). By the time the players have exhausted the Emerald Spire, they could have plumbed the various mysteries of the Crusader Road and gained a newfound appreciation for the richness of this locale.

I'm not sure how long the book would be if you included all of the above information: some parts would be smaller because you wouldn't need to explain twice certain points. Also, presumably such a book would not have included the Pathfinder Online appendix in Thornkeep (which dedicates about 20 pages of that supplement to the MMO). Even so, I realize that this would probably make the supplement over 250 pages (and I'm being conservative); which probably does not fit Paizo's publishing scheme; this conceptual Crusader Road book could be prohibitively expensive. You could get around that by separating it into two books: one regarding the local culture, and the other regarding adventure sites - but I don't think that would really fix the problem. I suspect most DMs would still want both; and then they'd be back to flipping between a couple books.

What is your wisdom re: prohibiting the ability to use magic items as a method of spamming spells? The classic example is the Wand of Cure Light Wounds. By around level 5, they become a cost-efficient method for the PCs to heal themselves back to full health after every fight, which diminishes the endurance run aspect of dungeon delving.

Other examples include:
A wand of fireballs, which - if acquired at a reasonably low level - can turn many encounters into "I cast fireball; everything dies". The same goes for Sleep. And yes, creatures will eventually regularly meet the DCs; and there are creatures that are immune to Sleep; and situations where casting Fireball is bad - but they do put a cramp on the concept of the spell budget, which seems important to the balance of classes (and the resource management of dungeon delves).

Carrying wands that just have stat buffs: they don't really add anything interesting to the adventure. They just let the party run around with extra buffs to their Attributes and/or Saving Throws for several encounters; or, in the case of Haste, give everybody an extra action and several other benefits beside (and, say what you will about other buffs, Haste is the sort that most classes would want on a regular basis).

Although wands are the "worst offenders", you might get a similar effect if players carry scrolls with several castings of the same spell (or even just scribe a large collection of scrolls, particularly those where DCs or duration aren't important); or a large number of potions (with the extras carried in an extradimensional space, once that becomes reasonable). Also, I have learned that some wondrous items apparently have infinite castings of spells: for example, the Horn of Fog, which produces both Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud, an infinite number of times per day - has recently fallen into the possession of my players, who are actually concerned that its infinite usage makes it overpowered.

This issue has come up because I am running a dungeon delve: the Emerald Spire Superdungeon. Dungeon delves are (in part) a matter of endurance, logistics, and resource management: I find consumables to be a problem in that regard because they run against that, and some of them can seriously throw off one or more of those themes.

I would like your opinion on whether my concerns are well-founded. If you need clarification of my concerns, I'll be happy to expound. If my concerns are well-founded, what would you suggest to remedy the issue?

I have considered several possibilities...
One: Prohibiting certain wands (or certain consumables in general), such as any wand that provides healing.
Two: Make consumables "single use only"; or introduce other complications (such as the classic "potion miscibility")
Three: Remove consumables entirely, and instead make them all Wondrous Items, which have a certain number of charges that may be used per day.

Race you to the bottom ;-D

Chris, how would you alter the Crypts?
I'm thinking of making the hallway traps obvious (no dust; or extra cobwebs around them), if not removing them entirely. Also, just completely removing the "obscuring mist" power of the moon spiders; maybe even the gaseous form. I know that leaves them as just big spiders that can poison you, but that seems like enough given the area. Alternatively, giving them a different power - something more reminiscent of the moon. Maybe a one-shot sleep spell (or targeted sleep), to make it easier to capture people; or a natural darkness effect that lowers the effect of all light near them by one rank (still, similar to the floor above).

The effect is a special kind of magical darkness; it doesn't matter what time of day it is - the interior of the tower is always dark. The flavor text shows that light stops abruptly at the tower's entrance.

Incidentally, the premise for the magical darkness effect is questionable. "The Azlanti builders created this magical effect to activate once night had fallen, but it is permanently stuck in its night setting." It raises questions.
Why did the Azlanti create a night effect on the top floor of the tower? What purpose does it serve? Wouldn't you want a "light" effect at night, so people can see? Why would you want to make it so dark that you literally cannot see (recalling that the Azlanti are humans)? If it has something to do with defense, then it should read "The Azlanti builders created this magical effect to activate in case of attack, but it is permanently stuck in its night setting."

Here's my concern for the second level of the Spire: more darkness effects. Granted, much of the floor is easy to see with a torch. However, there's one big problem.

The moon spiders.

I'm afraid the moon spiders are going to be an exercise in frustration for a Level 1 party. They have a lot of tactical advantages.
1. They have strength-draining poisonous bites
2. They have a climb speed, and a massive bonus to climb checks
3. There are seven of them, and it's not hard for at least three of them to gang up on the party
4. They cover at least one chamber with webs
5. They can use obscuring mist three times per day. This is really the worst of it, because the players leave one floor of inescapable darkness to find... another floor of inescapable darkness. That's effectively what this does, but it's worse because they're far more dangerous than goblins are. There's really no reason for the spiders to not flood the entire dungeon with obscuring mist (they have tremorsense), and there's not much the characters can do about it other than leave the floor and wait out the mist.
6. If they get badly injured, they can just use gaseous form to escape, floating over pit traps and through the cold gates.

Speaking of pit traps, there's four of them; and three of them are in the hallways. These are basically instant death traps. At least by the default description, there's literally nothing to indicate to the players that there's a trap in these hallways - which means they can't make an active Perception test to notice the traps. Which means falling into the traps half the time.

The character falls down a ten foot pit, onto spikes, and then gets trapped in there with a moon spider (whom, I remind you, can use obscuring mist and also block the only escape route; it'd also get cover from the trap door against anyone above it).

My gut tells me that all of this is bad dungeon design. The gimmick is too similar to the first level's, just cranked up a few notches; there's no way to counteract the spiders' threat other than to out-wait them; the enemies have tremorsense, so sneaking past them isn't an option; and the place is littered with "gotcha" pit traps (including the "gotcha" of the spider opening up the trap if the PCs walk past it, and blocking them in a hallway). I think it'll frustrate everyone; but I don't know what to do about it other than remove some of the pit traps and/or weaken or remove several of the moon spiders.

Having run Floor 1: The Tower Ruins, here are the results of my players' foray through that area.

Results of Floor 1: The Tower Ruins
The characters spent a little time admiring the green stone in the glen around the Spire. I ran with the idea that wandering portals shaved off the top of the glass, but it was otherwise undamaged.

The characters discovered the secret back entrance immediately. There's a painfully obvious pathway leading up to where, by all rights, there ought to be a door. And it's not clear how the goblins could create a fake door against the green glass; so I just said they piled together some glass and hoped for the best. Because the PCs didn't check the front, the players assumed this was the front entrance.

The group announced themselves loudly because they intended to negotiate with the goblins. This caught the attention of Skizzert, who marched Clanky out in front of him. He began negotiations with the party, intending to turn them against Grulk. However, the paladin asked the cleric to swear he would not betray them. So when Skizzert swore by Lamashtu, things took a turn for the worst - chaotic evil goddess, mother of demons - paladin attacked. They killed Clanky before he could explode; Skizzert, having cast his failed Bless on Clanky, did break down and cry. The party convinced him to renounce his faith, and he followed them like a beaten animal for the rest of the time on that floor.

The following encounters basically involved the PCs slaying other goblins that attacked them. The goblins made lots of mistakes, to humorous effect; food fight humor played a part twice.

Once the party got into a stand-off with the rangers, they made a point of it that they just wanted to talk things out, and see their leader. The goblins, who knew things were going poorly, accepted this; and the silver-tongued human moved them from Suspicious to Helpful, with an impressive Diplomacy check.

Grulk was frustrated, but realized that further confrontation would probably result in his death, or at least abandoning the Emerald Spire. He negotiated a truce, with the understanding that the party would kill Klarkosh if the wizard turned out to be as evil as Grulk suggested.

Here was the major frustration of the level: the darkness effect. It was useful tactically for the goblins, but it meant that over half the party just stood around not knowing what to do. If they had stood in the darkness while the rangers attacked, they would have lost their Dexterity bonus to AC, and been murdered quickly. This could easily have turned into a bloodbath if I'd played the goblins smarter; and in any case, trying to deal with the smothering darkness was frustrating for the players, instead of exciting.

Having now run two sessions, I can share some initial thoughts. This post contains my initial thoughts on Fort Inevitable.

Fort Inevitable: Initial Thoughts
The players have taken moderate interest in the town. One of the players is running a bard with a background as a highwayman (who operates in a different area); because he has six ranks in Knowledge: Local, I found it easier to just C+P the information from Fort Inevitable, subtracting information on material like the Secret Societies, characters' personal opinions of others about which they aren't outspoken, and secret information like the existence of the Skulks.

One of the PCs is Kellish, from the Land of the Mammoth Lords. He's taken an interest in the written word, practically as a sacred matter. Because of this, he was fascinated with the Chancery.

One of the players converted to the faith of Mephistopheles. It's the player of the Kellish character. Signifier Hast took an interest in the PC because he's a daemon-blooded tiefling; had him sign a contract giving him free access to the library in exchange for attending regular monthly services and making reports about the Emerald Spire.

I must note the party contains a paladin. He refused to enter the chancery; fair enough - I dressed it up as having a gigantic pentagram on it, with the assumption that it doubles as a temple of Mephistopheles (and other gods, but to a lesser extent).

Its never addressed whether the local Hellknights themselves use slaves. I decided they don't; they have plenty of armigers and local servants who are willing to do the work for them.

Stopping the PCs at the gate is a great way to get them some early roleplaying and define their character. I have a set of questions the Hellknights ask.
What's your name? (they will have you write it down)
What's your purpose here?
How long will you be staying?
(If the character seems like a paladin, priest of a merciful god, or idealist) We permit slavery in this town; is that going to be a problem?
I also have them unmask any hooded characters and pat them down for weapons if they look suspicious.
And when PCs leave the town, the Hellknights compare their stated names with the names written down in their books.
It's especially fun because the players have taken notice of it. It's not that it particularly bothers them, but Hellknights' acceptance of slavery has earned them a mild distaste with most of the PCs.

I recommend setting the campaign in early Spring. It's the time that I expect most people would be heading up the Crusader Road to get to the Worldwound, and so many people are likely to pass through Fort Inevitable. This includes potential hirelings and rival adventure groups. It's also a nice analogy for the PCs' careers.

Re: Clanky, from Level 1: The Tower Ruins
In Clanky's artwork, the automaton is depicted as holding a spear in its right hand. However, its stat block includes only a standard "slam" attack.

For those who want to create excerpts from Chaid DiViri's journal's first two volumes, here you go.

...

The Journal of Chaid DiViri, Hellknight Signifier of the Order of the Gate, leader of the expedition to tame the Emerald Spire.

The initial foray was uneventful until reaching the cellars. Although some magical gloom blocks light inside the tower itself, it was uninhabited; and unremarkable. There are no clues in the upper floors to whatever secret lays below.

The cellars beneath the tower are a haven for undead. Our conflict with them was a disheartening loss, but unavoidable. They were led by some kind of skeletal priest. We slew him and carried on. Honestly, the spiked pit traps in the hallways were a bigger threat than skeletons and zombies. Decided against pursuing those that fled; can't risk losing more men.

I've spent a few days trying to figure out a pattern to the arcane marks I keep finding, but we've been stymied. Maybe I just need more data. If not, I've consigned myself to doing this the hard way.

These staircases are getting longer...

Did I make the right decision? I am loathe to let such a fantastic device remain in the hands of those foul-smelling creatures, but its mysteries are not what brought me here. At least it serves as a convenient valve. Perhaps on a further expedition, when I do not have more pressing matters. Still... god in a box...

A clockwork maze...

Once we claim the power of the Spire for ourselves, we must clear out everything; on one hand, I'm excited by the opportunity to completely tame this place. On the other hand, I have already lost so many. Things pass here from the Darklands; how long have they been coming here? How many more civilizations will we find? I don't know... maybe I'm shaken up. Everything before now seemed... not easy, but manageable. Our losses this time were staggering. The Lord Commander won't continue supplying me with troops much longer; not unless I find results. I know this. And I don't know how deep this place goes, but I've invested too much to give up now.

Filth. Everywhere.

The Mistress of Thorns was unexpected, but good, company. I'm happy to have met somebody with some understanding of how this place works. She confirmed my theory about the portals.

The passageway below seems to continue on for eternity. I shall return to Fort Inevitable, and see what I can muster for the next leg of my journey.

Here's a fascinating question: where did Chaid DiViri leave the first two volumes of her foray into the Emerald Spire? The beginning of the third volume mentions that the first two volumes are safely enshrined with her order on her expedition's return trips to the surface. Given that she makes regular trips to the surface, and continues delving, it's fair to say that she actually has them saved at the Chancery in Fort Inevitable. It's the headquarters for the Order of the Gate (her order), and possesses the largest library in Fort Inevitable. Furthermore, the signifiers there are the ones who requested aid in examining the depths of the Emerald Spire in the first place. Even if she actually sent the volumes back to Citadel Enferac, it's likely the local signifiers made copies or notation of the most important parts of the text. Certainly Signifier Hast would have at least heard of them, and requested to review the documents. He takes an immediate interest in the Emerald Spire.

In other words, if the adventurers want to know a little bit about the first ten levels of the spire, they should visit the library in the Chancery. You might argue that the Chancery keeps such volumes off-limits, but they actively recruit into their order, and already require an expensive fee to join (which I set at 50 GP).

So, here's the trick: if you're going to allow the players to have this information, you need to do two things:
1. Present the journals in a clever manner; and
2. Remember what Chaid would and wouldn't know. It's fair to assume she went in before Klarkosh, or even the goblins; and before the thieves' den moved in. She's probably met the troglodytes, the undine, and the Mistress of Thorns. She's seen the Clockwork Maze, and understands how spire tokens work.

If you don't mind some telling instead of showing, this can be a good opportunity to whet the players' appetite for what's to come. Or be a problem that drops too many spoilers.

Thoughts?
I'm working up some excerpts from Chaid DiViri's journal.

My big question is what is the best way to to have the civil war at fort inevitable? With my players this is pretty much going to happen. I dont think they will take the adventuring tax past level 6.

The adventuring tax likely doesn't apply to the Emerald Spire. It's a common tourist attraction for folks from both Fort Inevitable and Thornkeep. In fact, obvious monsters are fair game. The problem is with killing "villains" and seizing their belongings; the Hellknights view that as common banditry.

You could argue that it extends to any type of adventuring in the area, even out to the Emerald Spire, but I'd be reluctant to stretch it that far. The initial investment is painfully expensive, and 30% of the take is a significant portion.

However, Logan, the emerald automatons have construct traits. That makes them immune to mind-affecting effects, including compulsions; Bless is a mind-affecting compulsion. Therefore, Bless will not work on Clanky.

They were created by the derros. I'm not sure how rules-legit this is, but the idea is that Klarkosh just found the clockwork automatons and repaired them, instead of building them himself.

Quoting from page 63 of the Emerald Spire Superdungeon...
"The Clockwork Maze was originally fashioned by a clan of derros over 100 years ago. They intended to use the halls as a workshop for the creation of golems, homunculi, and other magical constructs. However, the mad derros eventually lost interest and abandoned their efforts. Klarkosh stumbled across the derros' ruins in his first explorations of the Spire, and decided to establish his own lab here. The Numerian started by repairing the clockwork mechanisms the derros had left behind, then began to build automaton servants, using the Emerald Spire's potent magic as a power source."

Klarklosh has a Caster Level of 7. The Emerald Automatons require a Caster Level of only 6.

He could have brought the spare parts with him from Numeria... though I suspect he created them from parts he found in Nhur Athemon's laboratories; or perhaps the derros are responsible for the parts.

Incidentally, the emerald automatons require a fist-sized shard of crystal from the Emerald Spire in order to function. Really does raise the question of why the Emerald Spire hasn't been mined out. I'd go with the suggestion that the outer "shell" of the Spire is weaker in places, even though it's still stronger than stone there. However, the core is much harder - I'd call it a major artifact. There just aren't anything like it.

I'm having a small editing problem with the PDF version - I can't select or extract the images on p. 33 (trapped chest) or p. 37 (Gorloth). Near as I can tell I can select and copy all other artwork in the book, but these two pictures are being elusive.

I'm using Adobe Reader XI (11.0.07.79), I've also tried using Nuance reader and Foxit reader with no success.

For what it's worth, I cannot select any of the drawings with PDF XChange Viewer.

Level 2: The Cellars
At least by the base description, there's nothing to hint that there are traps in those locations. The problem is that most of them are placed in hallways, and the traps are deadly. There's nothing there to suggest to the players that they could make an active Perception roll; and if players fall for it, then they'll start poking around with sticks in every hallway.

The same goes for the various pressure plate traps (less bothersome, as they're in actual rooms; but still). I suggest tossing in something, like pointing out that there's an area where the cobwebs give way; or putting a shiny bauble over a space (which doesn't make sense for the hallway traps; makes them too obvious).

A couple questions from Level 1: The Tower Ruins
Clanky has a Weakness, called "Magic Dependent". What does that mean?

Grulk has a Special Quality called "Stalker". What does that mean?

While I'm at it, I'm just going to put the Emerald Spire timeline in this thread; efficiency!

Although the book has a timeline, it is less than a page long and omits some details that GMs may want to know before beginning the adventure.

What follows is my attempt to create a proper timeline. I have given estimates of dates where possible; events within date sections are arranged in roughly chronological order. If you have any additions or corrections, please chime in. I also intend to create a separate thread to discuss some of the adventure's logic.

Those who intend to play in the Emerald Spire Superdungeon should not read the following, as it contains spoilers.

Timeline Begins
Date: Unknown
Events
The Xiomorns, a primeval race of explorers and scientists from the Plane of Earth, lose a battle against the aboleths, and retreat from Golarion.

The Vault Keeper, Iluchtewhar, chooses to remain and attempts to create his own Vault. He is unable to control the power of a Vault Seed, and instead creates the Emerald Spire, which rises up through the earth and penetrates the surface. Iluchtewhar is imprisoned within the spire.

The inhabitants of the Eternal City of Axis, sensing the creation of the Emerald Spire, arrive on Floor 15. They seal off the deepest chambers.

Date: circa 5286
Events
Nhur Athemon, an Azlanti wizard-prince, flees justice. He arrives in Avistan. There, he learns about the Emerald Spire from the natives. He is fascinated by its magical (and in particular, planar) properties. Nhur Athemon erects a green glass tower over the Spire's uppermost point; and dungeons below to access different points of the Spire and experiment on its structure. He begins attempting to turn the Spire into an arcane weapon.

Nhur Athemon becomes a lich.

The Azlanti authorities discover Nhur Athemon's location. They raid his tower and its dungeons, laying them to ruin and destroying Nhur Athemon's body. Nhur Athemon survives thanks to his phylactery. He goes into dormancy, with occasional fits of wakefulness.

Date: pre-2714 AR
Events
Various people, creatures, and organizations begin visiting the Emerald Spire. Those with an interest in culture and history mistakenly believe the Spire itself to be of Azlanti construction.

The Mistress of Thorns takes control of Level 9, the Spire Axis.

Serpentfolk scholars travel through the Darklands and discover the Emerald Spire's subterranean levels. Over the next several thousand years, they intermittently occupy various levels.

The Godbox lands in Level 4.

2,000+ years ago: The evil high priestess Yarrix establishes a lair on Level 11. She is confronted by Carsolis, a champion of Sarenrae, who slays her and seals her in a tomb.

Date: 4214 AR
Events
The goblins of Zog occupy the Emerald Spire's ruins and the surrounding Echo Wood. They execute people by forcing them to brave the Emerald Spire's depths.

Date: Pre-4514 AR
Events
The serpentfolk turned Levels 7 and 8 into a temple, which remains occupied to the present day.

Humans establish various towns near the Emerald Spire, including Thornkeep, Southwood, and Mosswater.

An evil noble takes over Level 3, turning the natural caves into his lair. He studies necromancy until his own demise.

Derros, morlocks, troglodytes, and other creatures begin visiting the Emerald Spire's lower reaches by invading from the Darklands.

Derros enter on floor 8 and move to occupy floors 5 and 6.

Date: 4514 AR
Events
The derros' experiments on floor 5's affinity for water cause it to flood. Sometime thereafter, aquatic animals and undine spellcasters moved in. The serpentfolk of Vissk-Thar eventually turn the undine against their enemies.

Date: Pre-4614 AR
Events
The derros create the Clockwork Maze on Floor 6.

Troglodytes move in from the Darklands and form clans that worship the Godbox.

The morlocks move into Floor 9, where the Mistress of Thorns takes control of them.

Date: post-4684 AR
Events
Chaid DiViri makes expeditions into the Emerald Spire. After several successful expeditions, she finally dies on Level 10, the Magma Vault.

Gorloth, the bone priest, takes over rulership of the Crypt.

Date: 4709 AR
Events
The bugbear Grulk explores the ruins and establishes his own domain.

Date: post-4709 AR
Events
Klarkosh the Numerian Wizard explores the Emerald Spire. He makes a truce with Grulk to protect the entrance to the lower levels for Klarkosh; and similar negotiations with other inhabitants. Klarkosh establishes a lair on Floor 6.

Klarkosh begins experimenting on the Emerald Spire. He discovers a method by which he may harvest shards from the Spire, and inadvertently awakens Iluchtewhar.

Iluchtewhar pulls in creatures from other Vaults and learns how things have changed since his imprisonment.

Nhur Athemon awakens once more, and begins gathering his strength while observing levels near his own lair. He becomes aware of the serpentfolk and Klarkosh. Begins experimenting with methods to revive the dead (and undead) using the shards. Breaks the seal on floor 15, by using proteans. Axis shows up and a pitched battle begins, which becomes a stalemate.

The high priest of Ydersius - Ziszkaa - breeds hatchlings, including Uzar-Kus, who eventually takes over.

Pech, the earth fey, winds up on Level 6, and enters Klarkosh's service.

Date: 4713 AR
Events
Klarkosh begins actively defending his new home against all intruders, including parties of adventurers pursuing their own investigations of the Spire.

Date: 4714 AR
Events
The cleric Tarrin Dars establishes a stronghold on Level 3 of the Emerald Spire.

Sartoss the serpentfolk cleric breaks with his fellows on religious grounds; civil war ensues between levels 7 and 8.

The goblin cleric Skizzertz discovers a discarded automaton, which he begins repairing.

Klarkosh gives a sigil to Skizzertz, instructing him to bring any transport tokens he finds down.

New forms of undead monsters begin plaguing both Thornkeep and Fort Inevitable. Spellcasters report scrying effects from an unknown source brushing aside their normal screens and defenses. Something takes conscious control over the mysterious portals of the Spire Glen, disgorging monsters and capturing travelers far from the Emerald Spire. High Mother Sarise Dremagne of Fort Inevitable divines something about the emblem of a crown above a skull. Lady Commander Drovust seeks adventurers to destroy the "crowned skull".

Several Weeks Ago: Tiawask and Jharun visit the Emerald Spire. They are imprisoned by Klarkosh. Tiawask escapes.

Several days ago: Some intruders make it past the Crypts.

Three days ago (at least): Tiawask dies on Level 14.

Yesterday: Yoc, the xorn, finds the magma chamber, Level 10.

Concurrent: The PCs begin exploring. Iluchtewhar becomes somewhat distracted because of them.

I'm unclear on whether quest XP is meant to be divided amongst the players, or whether that is per player. I imagine it's the former.

How in the heck to the Echo Wood brigands get in and out of the 3rd level of the Spire? Through the second and the first? Seems like a long dangerous way for them to travel.

I may get to your other questions later, but there is an actual answer to this one.

If you look at the map of the Emerald Spire, you'll notice there's a tunnel connecting the third floor directly to the outside world. The same passageway is also mentioned in C17. It's a passage that climbs 1,500 feet to the surface.

Which is an impressive walk, I'll admit.

The dungeon levels themselves do not provide recommended levels. You could add up the XP that players should expect to have received by the time they reach a dungeon level - and go from there.

I'll be starting up my version of the Superdungeon this Tuesday, July 1.

Q: In 'tactics' section for Grulk you can read 'Once combat begins, Grulk uses the arrow slit to give himself improved cover'. But I cannot see such a slit in the room description... any clue?

Grulk's room has a wooden door with a shuttered arrow slit in its middle. It's mentioned in A13. Ascending Stairs.

If he hears the PCs coming, he stands in front of the door, at the arrow slit.

Of course; so far as I'm concerned, you can use any of my material from this thread.