Sovereign Dragon

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I know that some animals in RL have at least human toddler level intellect at adulthood, such as cetaceans (whales, dolphins, etc.), primates (us humans, gorillas, monkeys, etc.), parrots, corvids, and maybe more. Shouldn't those species be the exception to the general trend of -4 or lower INT mod and officially be elevated up to, like -3? Especially for the bigger whales (not present in PF2 as of now, AFAIK) and elephants, I heard they even have primitive vocal languages of their own...

P.S. At first, before this topic I was almost going to have a discussion on Animal pecking order in the form of in-game levels, but upon closer inspection, as other than the fact that marine leviathans like the megalodon seeming a bit lower than expected the general pecking order was well thought of by the dev team, so I dropped that one...

P.P.S. And don't even mention Tyrannosaurus palm directions (hint: not facing the ground IRL, their wrist joints never support that direction). Their Deinonychus art was done right, with all the fluffy feathers...


As Witches were the sort-of equivalents of Druids to Clerics divine differences with Wizards arcane, I think Occult is the most likely, seconded by the choose-a-tradition prepared caster idea...


Finally, I can compare with the dragon stats in B1 and make my preferred vision of PF2 true dragons (Hint: movie-Smaug-esque shaped Western fire breather with no cold weakness, and an equally potent classic Eastern one with a lighning breath) come true. And I can take my time to have the suggested top-down design to match up with my preferred bottom up method to make mechanics match the fiction...

Mark Seifter wrote:
(...) That said, we like matching them up on in-house where it makes sense.

This should be good, anytime...


How about instead of only getting Illusion or Enchantment spells per tail like in PF1, each tail gets to associate with one of the 8 schools plus metamagic? The base tail will always be Transmutation or Illusion for the specific humanoid shape business, in this case, with each Ancestry Feat gaining 2 tails per increment.


I think that after watching out new rules for a while, we can recreate the Spheres of Power rule with only cantrips and focus spells, with their low power but relative spam-ability to play with. Oh, and some metamagic feats too.

That's my take on another low-magic but fun setting, so...


Were catfolk to be in this book too?


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They really ought to have ditched slots for full time spell points if the fictional dissonance was going to be this big...

Likewise, in another game (classic FF3 for the FC/NES), this exact same problem made this game unplayable for me...


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This is a cleared up version of a thread I started in this subforum:

Can a spontaneous spellcaster use a higher level spell slot in casting a lower level spell without heightening?

If impossible, situations like having to cast 4~5 times per day any spell without heightening options are rendered invalid, so I desparately require some form of official answering...


I'd go even further and give them more believable replacement options in the place of Verbal and Somatic components, such as Emotion and Thought, perhaps. If you have innate magic such things should not rely on culture/species dependent factors like a vocal language or a physical hand (just look at dragons, their front digits are no good for elaborate movements other than treading like big cats).


Just noting, I do already know the heightening will not happen, unless you either know (a) higher level version(s) or designate it as a Signature Spell in case of Sorcerers.

But is just using up higher level slots to cast an unheightened base version of a spell legal/RAW?


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I really wish that houserule some genius proposed here not long ago, with Preps getting free Downcasting and Sponts getting free Upcasting (= Heightening), was the default canon RAW. So flavorful and much more easier to manage...


The only way I can think of to counteract this tragedy is to personally craft every custom creature to have as less glaring errors as possible, however taxing such task may be. Which I definitely plan to do so, as having different standards alone is like claiming there are two gravitational constants in our world (which is blatantly false, by the way). Anyway, IMHO, all above.


Speaking of Catfolk, is their facial look permanently finalized to be more bestial than human-like? Or do both instances exist in canon?


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What's the point of martials if casters could outshine them in contribution more than 50% of the total playtime? The old free scaling for raw power and duration was a big offender in that.


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Neat! Thanks for your hard work.

Although, shouldn't this thread's title be updated to something like General Proficiency Tables or such?


While this is getting a bit repetitive, I wish Imperial Dragons made the mark and managed to tag along with the Primals in B2... If not, maybe the next one (B3).


I heard long ago that one of the 3 devs of the d20 engine other than Monte Cook (surprise) had some serious hate of Sorcerers, for reasons not clearly known. As I heard he hated Fighters too, I personally think it was some sort of an "intellectual preparation play" snobbism.

Now it seems that his poisonous grudge somehow managed to contaminate both 5E and PF2 by placing unexplainable and unnecessary nerfs to Sorcs...


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Edge93 wrote:

For my current games, I've been houseruling that Wizards have sort of Arcanist-style casting (they prepare the number of spells they normally would but then can cast spontaneously from them instead of having to pick exactly how many uses of each spell) and also allowing not spontaneous Heightening but rather Undercasting. So say they prepare Lightning Bolt at level 6, they can cast it from any slot down to 3 but can't go the other way.

To balance it spontaneous casters have been given full spontaneous Heightening. So it results in Sorcerers have by far the most options for their best spell slots while prepared casters also have pumped versatility.

And it's worked quite well in my games. Casters haven't felt like they are overshadowing Martials and the prepared caster and spontaneous casters have seemed balanced against each other.

That said, I don't know if I'll use this houserule in future games. The base system is simpler and my houserules sometimes cause things to take a little longer in combat than they need to.

Now this is why the Internet is so useful despite the normally toxic atmosphere...

I'm definitely proposing/using this house rule when I get the chance to play/run.


I think a blurb page on which domain is currently published and available for Clerics (and future divine casters) for focus spell learning would be helpful.


I personally want to test out someday if 5E prepared casters may only prepare "half level + casting mod (minimum 1)" spells, while greatly boosting # of spells known for Sorcerers and similar classes and see if that evens things out...


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It seems that Paizo handled the sketchy yet inevitable INT penalty Ancesrty well. I can't wait to see them in (any) SRD format...


I wish they put two or more types of true dragons per Bestiary this time (at least until Paizo "catches up").

...Any other Imperial Dragons fans here?


I'm cautiously sure that constant Errata will round things out for the books (too bad for the early buyers, though).
Remember, the PF1 CRB Monk could not deal cold iron/silver treated unarmed strikes until the 6th printing (my 5th printed hardcover says so).
Important rule errors can and will be patched if enough voice of reasons gather up.


Alchemist 20 (Philosopher's Stone). Yeah, I know that's endgame material, but it counts, right?

Although to be fair, the infinite money making aspect was toned down in PF2 so you actually have to spend time working that quicksilver inside...


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ChibiNyan, Helmic, Bluenose and others wrote:
The awesome yet underrepresented reality of RL full plate armor

The fact no one in the history of Big D and its derivative RPGs ever managed to fix the "Big Stupid Plate Armor Issue" is a huge disappointment...


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The stone's property of producing rare metals was curbed down, that I can generously understand, but what happened to its youth restoration property?
The production of Elixir(s) of Rejuvenation just don't make the cut; I want more options for in-game "safe" immortality back... (frankly though, I am happy that at least Druids and Monks have the option right from Core at 14th level)


Captain Morgan wrote:
Trolls are Giants but not humanoids.

Good catch! Now this is why I love the forums so much despite all things hazardous...


Using the WBL chart NOT as the absolute whole amount your players' party is destined to earn for the entire campaign life, but rather as the intended end result by the time they reach Level X in the chart might help with this issue.

That way, your character's magic item ownership potential is NOT "ruined forever" because you "wasted" potions frequently...


If so, why does the <Creatures by Type> section in the Bestiary's pg.348~349 not include them?

If not, why do their individual stat blocks include the Humanoid trait (and every single one, as of now)?

By the way, no other "creature type" Traits have this issue, they only share "subtypes", not the bigger category...


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While not the Lost Omens campaign setting, the Nasuverse of Japanese creator brand TYPE-MOON has their magical population behave roughly like the OP's description. So it does feel plausible, in a way.


Frogliacci wrote:
I actually want to see expansions on the Kitsune race. In D&D3.5 and 4e, there was a race called Hengeyokai that contained options for a variety of small fluffy animal spirit people, with kistune as one of its subraces. I'd love to see the kitsune concept expanded to include things like tanuki and badger-folk, for example. You could even make a playable aranea/jorugumo ancestry based on that concept. Shapeshifting animal spirits is a huge category of creatures in East Asian mythology in general, not just limited to the kitsune.

Seconded. With one addition, that Paizo craft (a) new descriptive OGL name(s) for those races not limited to a single real world language. For an explanation, the depictions of fox spirits differ wildly between cultures around the world (not just Japan, or East Asia for that matter), and the Japanese "kitsune" are merely a well demonstrated version of it.

...Only half related, but I do wonder how they will handle the "9 magical tails" feat this time. Probably the first 17th level Ancestry feat will show up for this case...?


The devs apparently confirmed that for the Ancient Red Dragon the Huge size is errata material (it's supposed to be Gargantuan). I think the post is on the PF2 Bestiary's product thread.

For the age category, I do think the 5E categorization of one type per size is practical (and would have liked to see gargantuan Ancients for all types). I definitely plan to make my own variants as such once the promised monster math is revealed...


Saint Bernard de Clairveaux wrote:
about Option 2

I do generally agree on buffing up non-spellcasters to be superheroic, but I think that in a d20 System (and any derivative rulesets), the problem is the "number" and "exclusiveness" of problem solving "skeleton keys"; in the case of spellcasters, spells tailor made for specific problems (like from water breathing to teleport).

If those I call "magocrats (those who want strong casters to overlord over non-casters in both power and versatility in campaign)" won't compromise, then drastic measures were necessary to fix balance necessary for a RPG... (yes, Pathfinder is not only some sort of freeform drama activity, but a GAME foremost!)


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Bandw2 wrote:
(...) although my GM also doesn't like martials doing extraordinary things, so eventually it's just funner to play a caster anyway.

Oh, that's so horrible... Is there any chance of improving said situation by yourself?


Bumping this in more than 1 week with no answers... (Is this legal here?)


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On a related note, I would have liked all major outsiders to have their old CR 2 and CR 20 variants in the first Bestiary. The ship has sailed though... (and Proteans never had the 20th variant at all)


On that thread about non-martials having a rough time getting new weapon proficiencies which scales past Trained, had me thinking of the ①titular question, and the following derivative:

Is having multiple martial classes with strict niche protections on the availability of individual fighting styles worth it for the game?

The fact that when another game, the often ill-spoken 4th Edition of Big D, divided classes into power sources, had a single Martial source manage to cover all classes that weren't Arcane, Divine, Primal, Psionic (4E's probably-equivalent to PF2's Occult), and Shadow, also cements this personal suspicion that weapon based fighting as a whole being divided among classes might be harmful to both the martials themselves and spellcasters.

----

P.S. Just in case, while the question may seem adversarial against martials, I actually prefer them to spellcasters (due to underdogma, I admit though).


1. Probably because Wizards have spells that (while no longer that severe) can bypass a respectable number of skill usages, the now non-magical Alchemists had to have something to be compensated.

2. Well, it's Paizo's decision to make Rogues as THE skill class so there's that. I do wonder when the Investigator goes online next year fans of those two classes get to scuffle a lot...

3. The most likely in-universe justification is that they spent all intellectual time studying wizardry while other smarties picked up skills during the same time.

4. While not a tryout for explanations, if I readjusted PF1 classes' skill points, I'd use the following principle;

(1) All playable races w/ class levels start with 2+INT skill points.
(2) If the class' main AS is not INT, gain 2 more.
(3) If the class has 1/3 or no spell slot progression, gain 2 more.
(4) If the class is often treated as a "skill monkey", gain 2 more.


Bestiary

* p.112: The Ancient Red Dragon is Huge, not Gargantuan as it's supposed to be.

I'm quite sure one of the dev team already confirmed it as a real error in an another thread, but I want to make sure that it will be fixed ASAP in he 2nd printing, hence the reprisal here.


Seems solid, upon first glance.


Both deal with Mind affecting spells. Meanwhile, whereas Arcane magic also deals with Material (Energy + Matter) spells, Occult magic deals with Spirit (soul) related spells.

At least, that's what the old dev team blog and the CRB's page 300 tells me.


It may also have to do with your total HP scaling across the entire 20 level progress. While in PF1 your HP multiplies roughly 20 times higher than at startup, in PF2 this drastically lowers to 10.5 times, nearly half the slope; probably to be closer to damage scaling (which is roughly 4 times at the highest for weapons, if you have major striking runes ready).


As the title, I'll ask right away.

1. Is a +3 major resilient orichalcum armor legal to give out as treasure?
2. If so, what is its Item Level and price (or general worth for WBL) treated as?
3. Is there no legal way as of now for gaining a 4th property rune for magical explorer's clothing?

Bonus. Do you treat the free gauntlets included in a magical full/half plate as magical too?


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This part piqued my interest.

N N 959 wrote:
I'm not aware of Monks being immune to poison as a trope either.

Said trope is actually common in most mid(and higher)-tier wuxia characters. Usually it's automatically gained as you train your body with qi/chi/ki (or whatever pronounciation depending on the country writing the story) required martial arts.

Actually, I was quite astonished that WotC managed to research very well (for a presumably non-East Asian staff) on the kinds of common wuxia superpowers when making the Monk class' static benefits (tongues of the sun and moon, timeless body, perfect self, etc.), and managed to mess those up blasphemously in a heartbreaking manner...


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Personally the old wands felt more like drug syringes visually wise...

Yeah, it's the Big-D-ism, but still...


Probably common only for the adventurers, literally wise. But I think it's just for setting up the Recall Knowledge DC adjustments.


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Ashborne wrote:

*** Caution - - - - Rant Ahead ***

Extreme Magocracism

Wuxia heroes will want a long talk with this person...

No, seriously, in wuxia stories, it's the warriors who have a way easier (and safer) path for ascending to a higher plane of existence, not the caster equivalents. Quite the striking opposite of European chivalric stories, really.


Niche protection? Which I think is perfectly fine in a class based game, but only such games. Especially since PF2 did away with Lego brick multiclassing (which I have mixed feelings on).


Thanks for the data!

Do you have further plans for like adding the average DPR for each level for the first 3 rounds?


I need the rules too, so I can quickly create a version of true dragons that better suits my taste of their in-world positions. Plus NPCs that also work well numerically in a simulationist manner...

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