Thanks! I knew I had to be missing something.
We just wrapped up the special, so I should have more time going forward. I'll be traveling again this coming weekend, though.
"Use the hand? How would we do that?" Jarrek looks down at the thing as he thinks it over.
Before parting from Umlo and Ingrahild, Haftor learned from them some family lore concerning their illustrious ancestor, Nargrym Steelhand, the Giantslayer. As is customary, he was laid to rest with his gear and other belongings--including the enchanted steel hand that earned him the name. The hand, stories say, gave him the ability to use giants' weapons himself.
So we know in-character that the Steel Hand lets you use giant-sized weapons. And we have now seen this in action with Lokmorr (Medium) using a Large longspear. We will probably need to identify the Steel Hand with Detect Magic and Spellcraft to get the full properties. It may or may not take away the oversized weapon attack roll penalty, but it at least lets a Medium character use a Large two-handed weapon which is normally impossible (except for a few archetypes). It's entirely possible that we will face giants with particularly impressive weapons down the road and the Steel Hand would let you use them.
Kronug has no need for the Steel Hand because Gorum's Thorn is Medium-sized and he is very happy using that weapon.
Kronug's level-up:
Fighter 7
HP +2 Con = +10, new total 80
BAB +1
FCB: +1 CMD vs Trip/Grapple
Feat: Iron Will
Skills (3): Acrobatics (3 ranks)
Background Skills (2): Knowledge (Engineering) (2 ranks)
Armor Training 2
Let me know when I can intro my character. =)
Soon, and thanks for your patience. I think they'll be going to discuss their findings with Ingrahild and Umlo first.
DM, if Jarrek takes the magic spear can he retrain his Weapon Focus?
Also, any chance we can recoup the money he spent on enchanting his cold iron falchion? Seems like a waste now.
I think you under-estimate how many buffs PCs get to their attack rolls (and therefore CMB checks).
And I would guess that a barbed spear grappling a giant means not grappling by wrapping your arms around it, but rather impaling it and thereby restricting its movement (like harpoons do in PF1). So weapon bonuses would count. That makes a big difference.
We could very easily have Good Hope or Heroism (+2 morale), Inspire Courage (+2 competence), and Prayer or Divine Favor (+2 luck for Jarrek) for an extra +6. With a +5 BAB, +5 Str, +3 weapon enhancement with Bane, and +1 Weapon Focus, Jarrek would then be looking at a +20. More with flanking, Enlarge, or other modifiers. That's pretty solid. The narrow crit range means it wouldn't come into play very often, but I expect it would have a good chance of succeeding.
Bronwyn, dot into the Gameplay thread, and I'll have something up for you momentarily.
I was at an SF con this weekend, and am unlikely to get something up in Gameplay before the site shuts down. Here's hoping they get it done this time.
Loot:
Steel hand - Jarrek
Heartspit (great name) - Jarrek
Nargrym's Armor - Jarrek
masterwork breastplate (? not sure where this came from - sell)
elaborately braided dwarven beard decorated with three gold rings
intricately engraved platinum beard clasp in the shape of a castle sitting atop a cloud
DM C - can we detect magic on the beard with the rings and the beard clasp? Haftor would want to return the beard to the family, or re-inter it, whichever they preferred, unless it had some powerful ju-ju.
Haftor is interested in claiming the beard clasp.
Haftor Level 7 coming up soon.
Lokmorr was wearing the masterwork breastplate.
Umlo and Ingrahild would like the beard clasp, and also request that Nargrym's beard be reinterred with his body. None of it is magic.
I was about to do my level up but I see that I'm already at 7. I think that when I joined you had me join as level 7 in anticipation of the level up.
So I guess that means I'm ready to continue.
DM C, with respect to the Steel Hand's compulsion to attack giants, it says "as the Suggestion spell." Does that mean if attacking a giant would be obviously harmful (like the giant would obviously kill him or he has to leap over a hundred foot chasm or something) he can automatically resist the compulsion?
That would seem to make the curse just make him hate giants rather than goad him into unwinnable fights.
We saw in the troll fight that giants are going to come for Jarrek due to the fingernail armor. Should we try to plan around that, if they're going to come charging in and leave themselves open to AoOs and flanks from Kronug and Haftor?
I think based on the item description the GM posted, and how the troll acted, that it rolled a 20 on its save and became enraged. We can't count on that happening every time.
If it makes the save but not on a nat 20, that would be the most dangerous. It could be more tactical and also not penalized.
Yeah, I think that armor will shape tactics. It means that Kronug will generally want to let giants get within 30' of Jarrek first, then close quickly and finish them while they are taking the -4 penalty (or more from Demoralize/Dazzling Display, but those too are limited to 30' range). If Kronug has to risk an AOO to close with a giant, much better if it is taking that -4.
Once we start getting to the point where all the giants are making their saves against it, it might not matter as much, but for now it's a pretty major penalty at a relatively good DC. It's cool that it fits in so well with Jarrek's Intimidation build.
Haftor has a low move base and is often near the bottom of the initiative list, so it would be tricky for him to get into proper position in a timely manner.
Jarrek could try to delay and not get too far out ahead of Haftor, but if the baddies act before Haftor there isn't much he can do.
Perhaps Jarrek could try to tactically retreat between Kronug and Haftor and see if the baddies run the gauntlet? It could work, or it could backfire.
Yeah I can see Jarrek taunting and retreating, classic draw aggro tactic to let the party swarm the bad guy. With 15' Reach Jarrek could even try to kite so nobody ever gets a full attack.
But him backing up and hitting with the spear over Haftor/Kronug's heads is going be tough on the front-liners when we fight multiple party-level CR opponents.
Like you said, I don't think we can count on giants always getting sickened by the armor effect but Jarrek has a really good chance to be successful on his Demoralize checks. Between him insulting/threatening them and him wearing toenail armor I think we can count on him getting charged just out of RP. What's going to really be bad is when the giants can see him but not close to melee and start throwing rocks- Jarrek is pretty squishy against a boulder thrower with a high BAB.
I do like the idea of Kronug and Haftor in a front line, Jarrek behind them, and generally letting giants come to us or at least to within 30'.
Against rock throwers, I could take Smash from the Air to protect adjacent allies, but that's a 2-feat investment (3 to add Combat Reflexes). Giants tend to be much better at melee than at range (Str>>Dex), so I imagine most would try to close for melee. Cutting boulders out of the air with Gorum's Thorn would be pretty epic, though.
I am glad we are brainstorming here. What teamwork feat should Kronug build towards for Greater Tactician at Ftr9?
If he takes Dodge, he could get Tandem Evasion. The Players' Guide notes that dragons are a good Favored Enemy choice, so there will be a few.
If he dips a full-BAB class for 1 level, he could take Coordinated Charge at Ftr9. That is a very strong feat. Now, we've already encountered "Difficult Terrain for Medium but not for Large" which hinders charging, so I'd look to rely on Feather Step spells from the casters.
Shield Wall is +3 AC for Kronug and +2 AC for Haftor as long as they are adjacent.
Coordinated Defense would help against things like Awesome Blow, Trip, or Disarm (giants generally have better CMB than attack rolls due to the way size modifiers work).
Escape Route can let the melee types advance or let the squishy types escape. Probably the most all-around useful teamwork feat for this AP.
Broken Wing Gambit can be good but risky.
Coordinated Maneuvers or Tandem Trip can help the "trip-on-a-crit" aspect of Gorum's Thorn.
Outflank is strong, but risky again. I have seen pincer maneuvers backfire badly many times in 3.X/PF (most often on rogues circling around for SA damage). We also don't have the wide-crit-range weapons to trigger the AOOs often.
Thoughts? Leaning towards either Escape Route or Coordinated Charge.
Kronug can always take teamwork feats on his own and benefit via Fighter's Tactics; the question is which shareable one should he take next. What would benefit the party the most?
I'm leaning towards Shield Wall but Escape route looks good as well. Haftor isn't particularly effective in a charge. Does Haftor have to take a Teamwork feat to get the benefit? I'm working towards Giant Killer, but that isn't until BAB +11.
These are the shareable feats that Kronug can hand out through his archetype (like what a cavalier can do). Haftor wouldn't have to take it. But he could, to have the benefit all the time.
Right now Kronug can share out Shake it Off to the whole party as a standard action (2/day, 6 rounds). At Ftr9 it becomes a swift action and he gets another feat to share. And he gets more uses and it lasts longer as he levels up.
Anybody could take Shake it Off or Lastwall Phalanx (the two teamwork feats he has now) to get constant benefits from being adjacent to Kronug, and he grants an extra +1 to those bonuses. So right now a single PC with those feats would gain a +2 untyped bonus to all saves, and a +2 sacred bonus to saves and AC vs evil foes - as long as they were adjacent to Kronug. The more PCs had the feats, the higher the bonuses would go.
Coordinated Charge and Escape Route both look pretty good. We could advance as a 3 man team with Jarrek behind Haftor and Kronug and hitting with Heartspit. And letting us move around without taking AoOs from giants would be really useful.
Super behind in reading the thread. I will catch up tonight (roughly 12-14 hours from now). Really sorry for not keeping up.
I'm on leave and won't be posting now through New Year's Day. If you need to bot me, Haftor will help form the front line and hit baddies with his hammer. It has Acid Strike (+1d4 damage) for 1 minute.
See you in the new year, Haftor!
I've got one more day of work before we close until January 5th, and have also been dealing with holiday prep. I'll try to get a post up before Christmas, but we'll see. If not, I hope you all have wonderful holidays!
I'm back! Happy New Year all!
DM, can we make Called Shots? And if so, can True Strike be combined with one?
Thinking of taking out the cyclops's eye with such a combo...
SRD says such a called shot usually turns TS into a regular attack and negates any called shot effects... but the rule can be ignored.
Uh, are we even using that rule system?
Seems a whole different game. I have never used anything like it in 25 years of 3.X/PF1.
It's an optional system, which is why I asked. :)
Folks I gamed with did called shots in AD&D/3.x all the time.
I'm going to say no.
Alright, thanks for the confirmation.