Lets start by getting characters figured out.
Checking in. Won’t be able to post for a bit, but I should be able to do so in about an hour.
Alrighty!
Now that I have a chance to post, I've got a couple of character concepts in the works.
Either a missionary of Sarenrae sent forth from another nation to re-establish the church in Kelmarane, or a slave (likely of an exotic race) dead-set on earning their freedom.
Dotting in. Thanks for the pick!
I'm flexible when it comes to party role. I'm hoping I'll have a better idea once I take a look at the player's guide (though I probably won't have a chance to do that for several hours as I'm just about to head out to work), but my initial inclination is either something Int-based/very skills-y or possibly try to make my fighter tank again.
I'm fairly flexible as well, although there is a character concept I've been hoping to find the right campaign for-- something with build and story flexibility, ideally.
Essentially, she's a Picaroon Swashbuckler (ie. sword-and-pistol type) with a secretive history. Role-wise, that would put her as a close-range skirmisher type (both melee and short ranged).
That said, if that doesn't work, I'm happy to throw one of my other character archetypes at this. Got a samurai who should be good at... well, ranged and melee again, but mounted this time.
Maybe I do have a type, since Thyste was a ranged-and-mounted martial as well...
I'll add a link to the players guide at the top. That might help you all figure out what you want to play.
Your best bet is to just pick something to get the ball rolling and then let the others pick around that. Often, seeing another player's choice sparks an idea and since you are developing the team AFTER you have been picked, it allows you to build on one another characters for backstory if you want to.
In that case: Lady Vulpina the Picaroon Swash it is!
As a side note, the Picaroon archetype is a cool idea that kind of sucks in practice. Mostly this is because reloading a pistol while you have a sword in-hand is... tricky, and having six extra guns if you don't want to reload is expensive. Basically, she falls heavily under "A cool concept should not be abandoned if you really want to play it" for me. Do you want to work together to tweak the archetype, or do you want me to just present some proposed changes and you point your thumb up or down?
On thinking more about it, I'm leaning more towards the fighter character. He's basically a heavy-armor wearing, dual-wielding crit fisher. Pairs well if anybody has a large crit multiplier and wants me to grab Butterfly Sting. More focused on defense than damage.
I got real excited when I started reading Butterfly's Sting (what with a x4 Pistol), but then:
When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits that creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally to hit the target automatically confirms the attack as a critical hit.
Goshdarn melee!
In that case: Lady Vulpina the Picaroon Swash it is!
As a side note, the Picaroon archetype is a cool idea that kind of sucks in practice. Mostly this is because reloading a pistol while you have a sword in-hand is... tricky, and having six extra guns if you don't want to reload is expensive. Basically, she falls heavily under "A cool concept should not be abandoned if you really want to play it" for me. Do you want to work together to tweak the archetype, or do you want me to just present some proposed changes and you point your thumb up or down?
Propose away.
Also, consider teamwork feats since you are cooperating on team building.
All right! So, first proposal.
Melee Shooter (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action when wielding both a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon and a one-handed firearm, the picaroon can spend 1 panache point to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity with the first ranged attack made by the one-handed firearm during her turn. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
At 1st level, a picaroon with at least 1 point of panache can use a hand that is already carrying a light or one-handed piercing weapon in order to reload a one-handed firearm as if it were free. This deed replaces either opportune parry and riposte or derring-do, depending on how merciful the GM is.
(Side note: why does nearly every Swash archetype trade away opportune parry and riposte?)
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Why does nearly every Swash archetype trade away opportune parry and riposte?
I think it is because it is their best class feature and the archetypes that don't get dipped like crazy (looking you inspired blade) and it really displaces the novelty of swashbucklers at the table when the investigator does their core move better than they do.
Gm what were you thinking for point buy? I don't need full build rules but a general idea of starting stats will help in building for multiple roles or getting certain archetypes to function well. Also, what are you thinking for the final group size?
So, it looks like a front liner, a skirmisher, a possible a divine character (or a slave, which nice and open mechanically). I will have to give it some thought. I have several investigators and alchemist I have built with different backgrounds (religious detectives, gun-toting freedom fighters, one bound to the elements through a familiar), at least one wizard and one sorcerer, a two grave digging druids, some bards and skalds, a cleric of torag, and a hand full of oracles.
Alright, after giving it some thought, I decided I'd like to give the witch class a try. A slave from a distant land, bounced between masters until she was finally sold to the Pactmasters of Katapesh.
One question, though--I would like to play as an android.
I can switch races if you'd prefer, GM.
I was thinking more along the lines of picking Sylph as my other choice if Android isn't allowed.
Is anybody interested in possibly linking backstories? I was thinking my character was probably bullied a lot as a child and as a result is probably shy, somewhat leary of law enforcement due to them not really helping, and cares deeply about trying to help "the little guy" now that he's a bit older and better able to protect himself/others. As a shy character, it might be nice to make him friends with another PC, but if not, I can probably make him more "quiet" than outright "shy".
Oh, suggested addendum 2 to the Picaroon:
The Picaroon starts play with a battered gun, as the Gunslinger class feature, except she must choose either a pistol or a dragon pistol.
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I'm always up for linked backstories. It will keep it in mind as I try to narrow down a PC.
I think witches make great slaves trying to free themselves as Patrons are perfect for that.
Linked backstories are nice. :)
Yeah, I waffled on whether I wanted to play as a wizard or as a witch. In the end, I understand that wizards generally receive formal training to cast spells, whereas witches don't--and I couldn't think of a way that a slave would ever be allowed to undergo actual training as a mage in any capacity.
Love linked backstories and Big Agree: linked backstories are excellent!
I have a backstory more-or-less in mind for Vulpina and it makes it hard for her to have one with someone else, and I’m trying to figure out how much should be Player Knowledge and how much will be a secret between the GM and me.
...although Dragoncat already knows anyway. :P
All right! So, first proposal.
Melee Shooter (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action when wielding both a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon and a one-handed firearm, the picaroon can spend 1 panache point to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity with the first ranged attack made by the one-handed firearm during her turn. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.At 1st level, a picaroon with at least 1 point of panache can use a hand that is already carrying a light or one-handed piercing weapon in order to reload a one-handed firearm as if it were free. This deed replaces either opportune parry and riposte or derring-do, depending on how merciful the GM is.(Side note: why does nearly every Swash archetype trade away opportune parry and riposte?)
How about this...
At 1st level, a picaroon with at least 1 point of panache can use a hand that is already carrying a light or one-handed piercing weapon in order to reload a one-handed firearm as if it were free. When she does so she cannot use the opportune parry and riposte response until next round.
It should actually cost something, so how about losing proficiency with bucklers and pushing back one of the other abilities by one level, like charmed life or nimble or the additional feats.
And I TOTALLY agree with you on the archetype madness. They like to take away signature abilities and, worse, often replace them with substandard abilities. Ugh!
Gm what were you thinking for point buy?
Doh! I remember thinking I needed to post that and starting wealth, but it slipped my mind.
Standard 20 point buy, max wealth by class.
Alright, after giving it some thought, I decided I'd like to give the witch class a try. A slave from a distant land, bounced between masters until she was finally sold to the Pactmasters of Katapesh.
One question, though--I would like to play as an android.
I can switch races if you'd prefer, GM.
Odd. An android witch!? I have no objection to the race and the back story is almost guaranteed to be interesting, but you do realize it will cost 32 build points for that, leaving you a paltry 8 points for traits and feats.
Alrighty then. Going by Build Point rules, would I still be allowed 1 feat and 2 traits?
Oh, suggested addendum 2 to the Picaroon:
The Picaroon starts play with a battered gun, as the Gunslinger class feature, except she must choose either a pistol or a dragon pistol.
What would they normally start with? Nothing?
What would they normally start with? Nothing?Oh, suggested addendum 2 to the Picaroon:
The Picaroon starts play with a battered gun, as the Gunslinger class feature, except she must choose either a pistol or a dragon pistol.
Going by RAW, it appears they don't start with a battered gun the way a Gunslinger (or, really, just about any other gun-focused archetype) does.
Alrighty then. Going by Build Point rules, would I still be allowed 1 feat and 2 traits?
If they were dirt cheap (i.e. mostly fluff) feats and or traits. Basically you have 40 build points which allows a 10 point race, a 10 point feat, and two 5 point traits. Keep in mind that each race point costs two build points so those advanced races are wicked expensive and that android basically cost you one top tier feat and a little more. I would allow you to drop one of the android abilities to save a few RP though. So, for example, you could drop the nanite surge ability and earn back 3 RP which equates to 6 build points. The 'constructed' racial ability is too integral to the concept though, so that would not make sense to drop.
Going by RAW, it appears they don't start with a battered gun the way a Gunslinger (or, really, just about any other gun-focused archetype) does.What would they normally start with? Nothing?Oh, suggested addendum 2 to the Picaroon:
The Picaroon starts play with a battered gun, as the Gunslinger class feature, except she must choose either a pistol or a dragon pistol.
That does seem silly to me. Guns are not all that powerful, but they sure as heck are expensive. So I give that a thumbs up.
Ayup—there’s a few gun archetypes that don’t, but the majority do, to the point that it’s commonly believed to be a mistake!
I’m good with “no opportune party&riposte if you reload during the round” with one question; does that persist even if I get my reloading down to a Free Action?
Okay then. I'm fine with the dirt-cheap feats and stuff.
I'm looking to take the Earning Your Freedom campaign trait (kinda integral to my character's backstory) and one other trait.
How many build points would you say one of the skill-boosting feats (Acrobatic, Deceitful, Persuasive, Magical Aptitude, and the like) would cost?
Ayup—there’s a few gun archetypes that don’t, but the majority do, to the point that it’s commonly believed to be a mistake!
I’m good with “no opportune party&riposte if you reload during the round” with one question; does that persist even if I get my reloading down to a Free Action?
Yes, it would. However, I would allow you to overcome this penalty by buying a custom feat. Depending on how much you are willing to spend on the feat and how we wrote it up, it might come with a penalty to the parry roll or not.
Okay then. I'm fine with the dirt-cheap feats and stuff.
I'm looking to take the Earning Your Freedom campaign trait (kinda integral to my character's backstory) and one other trait.
How many build points would you say one of the skill-boosting feats (Acrobatic, Deceitful, Persuasive, Magical Aptitude, and the like) would cost?
There are also other things you can give up such as Exceptional senses, but does sound like you want the whole package!
So, now we get down to the cost of a trait. The skill boosting feats usually add 4 to the skill roll which is one of the better trait bonuses. If you take one that gives you the class bonus and a +1 for a total of +4, I think it should cost 5, but I could be talked down to 4 if the players think that more appropriate. If the skill is already a class skill and gives you a +1, then I'm thinking 1 or 2 build points. I hesitate to say 1 BP since I do not want it spammed. It really belongs somewhere between the two. If you take the trait for a non-essential skill and it gives you +4 then I would price it at 2.
And remember to reskin the trait to suit your character if you take it.
Feel free to chime in guys. This is a pretty basic trait and you all might have a vested interest in this discussion.
I hesitate to say 1 BP since I do not want it spammed.
Can you talk more about this point build thing? Or is there a page describing it? I'm not really sure where the fear of it getting "spammed" comes from unless we can take as many feats/traits as we can pay for with build points. But even then, there are typically limits on traits (namely that you can't take more than 1 in a given category).
Also, humans get a bonus feat. How does that work? Do I get that feat for free or do I also have to somehow pay for it?
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I'm always up for linked backstories. It will keep it in mind as I try to narrow down a PC.
I think witches make great slaves trying to free themselves as Patrons are perfect for that.
Linked backstories are nice. :)
Yeah, I waffled on whether I wanted to play as a wizard or as a witch. In the end, I understand that wizards generally receive formal training to cast spells, whereas witches don't--and I couldn't think of a way that a slave would ever be allowed to undergo actual training as a mage in any capacity.
There are archetypes for that if you want to be an untrained wizard, one actually has a patron.
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I hesitate to say 1 BP since I do not want it spammed.Can you talk more about this point build thing? Or is there a page describing it? I'm not really sure where the fear of it getting "spammed" comes from unless we can take as many feats/traits as we can pay for with build points. But even then, there are typically limits on traits (namely that you can't take more than 1 in a given category).
Also, humans get a bonus feat. How does that work? Do I get that feat for free or do I also have to somehow pay for it?
I'm guessing but I would assume the core races counts as standard races for the point buy so 10pt would get you the feat, and skilled of a normal human.
Derp, should have just re-read the google doc. ^^;; I think the build point thing makes sense now. As long as humans count as 10RP races, I'm probably just going to assume all of my feats/traits/whatever are top dollar and build from there, haha.
I hesitate to say 1 BP since I do not want it spammed.Can you talk more about this point build thing? Or is there a page describing it? I'm not really sure where the fear of it getting "spammed" comes from unless we can take as many feats/traits as we can pay for with build points. But even then, there are typically limits on traits (namely that you can't take more than 1 in a given category).
Also, humans get a bonus feat. How does that work? Do I get that feat for free or do I also have to somehow pay for it?
Good point. The trait limits already take care of that. Then a trait that gives you a +1 should only cost 1.
I put the link to the house rules in the header for the campaign. The human feat bonus basically gives you 10 build points. In general whenever you would get a feat you get 10 build points. For 10 build points you can get one top notch feat or you can get two additional top notch traits or you can get a bunch of sucky feats. Like you said, just buy what you want and if you pick a feat or trait that I would consider as suboptimal, I'll let you know and refund you some points. And it's OK if you do not spend all of your points as long as there are not a lot of leftovers.
@DM: Can I sell you on making Linguistics one of the Lore-like skills? I suppose it's somewhat game-specific, but I don't often see it come up as a skill roll. I also don't often see language really being a huge barrier in games, and when it is, typically the best way around that is via magic rather than linguistics. That being said, for some reason I like having a long list of languages that my characters know.
I've started putting together a background in my head, but I'll probably hold off on writing it down until I've actually come up with names for my character and at least one NPC (naming is hard :-x).
I also have the broad-strokes plans for the crunch, but I'll need to figure out if I'm going to get Butterfly Sting (and therefore need to have an Int of 13) or if I'm going to eventually want Cut from the Air/Spellcut (and need a Str of 13) or if I'm going to be busy trying to get a million other feats.
I'm in favor of that for Linguistics-- essentially picking up one language per level? Given there are like 40 languages and magic is almost always the better way to go about it...
Also, it occurs to me that for Opportune Parry and Riposte, there's nothing saying you can't choose to make a ranged attack against whoever you're parrying. Neat!
You might take an AoO though.
Anyway, my choices so far:
-Kitsune
-Picaroon Swashbuckler
Things I'm considering, point-dependent:
-Rapid Reload
-Dodge
-Mobility (eventually aiming for Deft Shootist)
-EWP (Wakizashi)
-Rich Parents trait
Also: what are your thoughts on "feats that apply to Scatter weapon damage"?
A weapon with the scatter weapon quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. When a scatter weapon attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature within the cone. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil a scatter attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. A firearm that makes a scatter shot misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.
Copied the whole thing (aside from the siege engine rules) for full context, but the bolded is where I want to put the emphasis.
There's been some debate as to what "damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike" means-- whether it means all damage-increasing feats, or just ones that fall under a certain category. People point out how weird it would be for Point-Blank Shot not to work with a shotgun, for example.
Happy to go with either way, but it'll probably sway whether I'm using a pistol or a dragon pistol!
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Opportune Parry and Riposte, there's nothing saying you can't choose to make a ranged attack against whoever you're parrying. Neat!
The parry has to be melee until you have snap shot because it is 'as an attack of opportunity' but it opens up after you get snap shot. Then again it is an attack roll so you could get an aoo back if you don't have point blank master.
What I was envisioning was a "parry their blade away and then shoot them in the gut" scenario-- I should have specified that it's the riposte that doesn't specify melee or ranged.
That's why I'm aiming for Deft Shootist, actually! No AoO's for reloading OR firing in melee so long as I have 1 grit/panache.
The skill boosting feats usually add 4 to the skill roll which is one of the better trait bonuses. If you take one that gives you the class bonus and a +1 for a total of +4, I think it should cost 5, but I could be talked down to 4 if the players think that more appropriate.
Thing is, the skill-boosting feats I was referring to only grant a +4 bonus to whatever skill rolls they apply to after the character who took them already has at least 10 skill ranks invested into them. Before then, they only grant a +2 bonus to the skills they apply to.
@Anon
Linguistics is a useful skill in that it allows you to save money on comprehend languages castings or being able to contribute to a conversation in an odd language. I was leaning towards not making it a limited use skill, but since VixieMoondew chimed in in favor, I'll slide in the other direction and count it as a limited use skill.
@VixieMoon
BP costs:
-Rapid Reload: 7 points
-Dodge: 9 points
-Mobility: 5 points
-EWP: 10 points
-Rich Parents trait: 5 points
@Dragoncat
Are you talking about the feats that give a +2 to two skills and then a +4 at 10th level? Those are feats and not traits and I was just talking traits. These feats would cost 6 BP, and the ones that provide +3/+6 would cost 5. And, furthermore, you could pick any two skills and reskin it for the two skill combo feats.
@group
Do those valuations work for you?
I think I'm generally good with that!
Although, something of a question that might be getting too nitty-gritty:
Would we want to look at Exotic Weapon Proficiency as weapon-by-weapon? For example, something like the Doru (1d8, x3, Brace) might be worth less BP than, say, the Fauchard (1d10 18-20x2 with Reach and Trip).
Alrighty.
Now, I have a question about how much the Earning Your Freedom trait will cost me. I understand that the bonus it offers can be applied to Fortitude, Reflex or Will saves. Will that have an effect on its BP cost?
I think I'm generally good with that!
Although, something of a question that might be getting too nitty-gritty:
Would we want to look at Exotic Weapon Proficiency as weapon-by-weapon? For example, something like the Doru (1d8, x3, Brace) might be worth less BP than, say, the Fauchard (1d10 18-20x2 with Reach and Trip).
I'd rather not complicate it to that extent though I do get your point. Most of the time, though, the feat is taken to get a much better weapon than normally allowed, particularly if the class is limited to simple weapons.
Alrighty.
Now, I have a question about how much the Earning Your Freedom trait will cost me. I understand that the bonus it offers can be applied to Fortitude, Reflex or Will saves. Will that have an effect on its BP cost?
A +1 trait bonus to a ST is worth 5 and is a popular choice for a trait. The way I read it, though, is that you have to pick which one it applies to when you take the trait. You do not get to change it up. So it is really a reskinned standard trait.