|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
a demon create a baby, a baby demon who born in middle of forest.
however the baby prophesied to bring the end of universe. you happened to be there. tasked to kill the baby.
what are you gonna do ?
kill baby to save the world. or save the baby.
As someone alluded to, this is literally Hellboy's backstory. Like, almost exactly. So you raise the kid to be a good person.
depends, am I a paladin of Ragathiel? in that case there's not even a dilemma.
Ragathiel is half-fiend himself and in no way advocates the killing of babies.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is no problem that can't be solved by running on a beach in slow motion next to Erika Eleniak.
What was the question?.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If the prophecy can be stopped by a 1st level PC deciding to kill a baby it seems like a pretty weak prophecy.
Prophet: "Oh no, the world will end unless you kill that bunny!"
Hero: "That one over there?"
Prophet: "Yes, or any bunny you'd like really. It is you morally compromising yourself which is important here."
Hero: "It isn't immoral to kill a bunny."
Prophet: "Some vegans would disagree, but alright then, how about you kill a BABY!"
Hero: "That's morally unacceptable. Think of the children!"
Prophet: "It is a grim and gritty world. If you don't kill that baby a cosmic train will run over millions of other babies!"
Hero: "I think you're full of crap."
Prophet: "Aren't we always?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The answer is 42.
My world will end long before the baby grows up to destroy the universe.
This makes it someone else's problem...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yo this ethics is sick
with its hypothetical shtick
answer it quick
while the clock tick ticks
and you think maybe
you should save the baby
or is it kill it dead
I'm out of my head
ah screw this thread,
Imma watch Montel instead.
Montel: "The demon is...NOT the father!!!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*scuttles over moral quandaries*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The universe is the totality of all that every was, or is, or will be. Asking me to save it is a little bit like asking a mitochondria to fix your carburetor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The universe is the totality of all that every was, or is, or will be. Asking me to save it is a little bit like asking a mitochondria to fix your carburetor.
Technically it's the multiverse which is everything.
At best the baby is going to destroy this universe.
You could just travel to an adjacent universe.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Montel: "The demon is...NOT the father!!!"Yo this ethics is sick
with its hypothetical shtick
answer it quick
while the clock tick ticks
and you think maybe
you should save the baby
or is it kill it dead
I'm out of my head
ah screw this thread,
Imma watch Montel instead.
Garn! This bit woulda been a hunnerd times funnier iff'n ol' Mikdrop had said "Maury" instead o' "Montel."
Meh--we piratey types ain't up much on daytime TV! Praps Montel does some o' the same schtick anyhoo....
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Universes are collapsing into each other all the time, destroying both and creating a new hybrid universe,
Everyone of you that played in open worlds have destroyed uncounted universes.
"The Pathfinder Society, with their tracking and bringing together adventurers from different realities, many having lived through the same, exact, yet separate, experiences. Each of these meetings destroys two realities, at the very least. You want me to be worried that some madman had a hallucination about a Baby?! Gods you are an idiot. You even forgot the first rule of dealing with adventurers, if you can't point out the rogue..."
"Urk,"
"OK, check his pockets, Presto, scan the rooms for magic, Thunderhammer, do you sense any treasure nearby?"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you really want to destroy the universe, give that kid a Twitter account.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Will someone just get that durn kid off my lawn already!
Yer lawn!
Then who the hell is on my lawn!!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Man. Some funny answer.
About killing a baby
Actually it's mostly about not killing a baby.
Anyway, here's my answer (giving you the benefit of the doubt): barring an immediate and severe threat to life, I do not believe I am capable of taking actions to purposefully cause the death of any person. The baby isn't an immediate threat to anyone, therefore I could not kill it.
|
I think we're forgetting the demon "created" the baby. Demons are physical manifestations of evil energy. They don't get a moral choice whether to be good or evil. I understand there was some adventure path about an extrememly obscure case of a demon turning "good" but I question that logic. When an Angel falls from grace it is usually not by choice but through corruption / evil influence. By the same token, a demon who becomes good is through "good" corruption / good influence. Not by them choosing with their full willpower. It is against the core of a demon's existence to be "good".
So killing a demon baby in Pathfinder's world of physical manifestations of evil would not be considered an evil act. Especially one whos prophesy, in a fantasy realm where prophesy is often reality, is to destroy the world.
Smite the demon baby.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Demons are physical manifestations of evil energy. They don't get a moral choice whether to be good or evil.
It is canonical, however, that demons are capable of being redeemed.
So while they may not have a choice about whether they start good or evil, they can choose to become something else like any sapient creature.
Set the apocalypse baby up with good parents who can fend off all the apocalypse cults trying to use the child for their own ends, and hope for the best. If the Apocalypse Cults are irritating enough, as the kid becomes increasingly aware she may be sufficiently irritated with them to put her horrifying powers to opposing the people who keep harassing her parents.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, the baby ends the universe, is that it.
How convenient.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think we're forgetting the demon "created" the baby. Demons are physical manifestations of evil energy. They don't get a moral choice whether to be good or evil. I understand there was some adventure path about an extrememly obscure case of a demon turning "good" but I question that logic. When an Angel falls from grace it is usually not by choice but through corruption / evil influence. By the same token, a demon who becomes good is through "good" corruption / good influence. Not by them choosing with their full willpower. It is against the core of a demon's existence to be "good".
So killing a demon baby in Pathfinder's world of physical manifestations of evil would not be considered an evil act. Especially one whos prophesy, in a fantasy realm where prophesy is often reality, is to destroy the world.
Smite the demon baby.
Just about everything in this post is canonically wrong in Pathfinder and Golarion as presented. But even if it was right...it's a baby, you can 'corrupt' it to good really easily, making killing it unacceptable.
Also see above re: Hellboy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't kill the baby. My god. What if that baby is really Mister Spock.
|
|
It is canonical, however, that demons are capable of being redeemed.
I don't have much knowledge on the subject but am going off this article: https://wotr-pfs.obsidianportal.com/characters/arueshalae
Through divine intervention and appealing to the demon's former mortal soul. It is her memories as a mortal that Desna invokes in the dreams. It is difficult for us to comprehend the absoluteness of evil that is a demon because it doesn't exist in real life. It's not a question of being born evil they are literal evil in physical form.
In real life, I'd tend to agree that "demons" can't be redeemed, based on my religion.
I mean, after all, they chose to be that corrupt.
But that doesn't necessarily hold true for babies.
And, in PF, the evil subtype says:
This subtype is usually applied to Outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil Outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.
Those bold parts make it really clear that a creature of fundamental evil, like a demon or devil, can, in fact, become non-evil.
This is true of good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Men.
|
|
.
And, in PF, the evil subtype says:...
These rules govern what happens when an alignment is changed not how. There are plenty of ways to change alignment that don't involve choice.
Again, even the demon who turned good mentioned above didn't do so through appealing to her demonic self, it was through her mortal memories that should've been extinguished in the larvae phase. I'm assuming Desna used her divine power to counteract the process of extinguishing mortal memories. Which those memories may not even have been her "own" since a single corrupted mortal soul can be used to make multiple demons (beings of pure evil).
This excerpt from I believe ultimate magic (it's vague from what source but found on d20pfsrd here)
Demons exist for one reason-to destory.... Some carry in their frames humanoid shapes, while others are twisted beasts. Some flop on land while others flap in air or sea. Some are schemers and manipulators of emotion and politics, others are destructive engines of ruin. Yet all demons work to the same goal—pain and suffering for mortal life in all its forms.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is canonical, however, that demons are capable of being redeemed.
I don't have much knowledge on the subject but am going off this article: https://wotr-pfs.obsidianportal.com/characters/arueshalae
Through divine intervention and appealing to the demon's former mortal soul. It is her memories as a mortal that Desna invokes in the dreams. It is difficult for us to comprehend the absoluteness of evil that is a demon because it doesn't exist in real life. It's not a question of being born evil they are literal evil in physical form.
All demons have formerly mortal souls. Indeed, all Demons are formerly mortal souls. Saying that you need to appeal to their former mortal soul is the same as saying 'You need to appeal to the goodness in a person to redeem them.' It's true, but not a meaningful statement of limitation.
And all Desna did was remind her what being mortal was like and give her a few words of inspiration. Yes, it was divine intervention in the sense that a deity did it, but it wasn't actually anything that a person of less than deific stature couldn't theoretically do.
Acting like redeeming demons is impossible without a God involved is silly and does not mesh up with the way the rules or setting actually function. At all.
Besides which, demons don't have babies. Which makes this hypothetical situation so unique that the standard stuff clearly doesn't apply.
And even assuming you were right about everything...how difficult is it gonna be to get a NG deity's help in redeeming a being that will otherwise destroy the universe? That seems like an easy sell.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
what is evil ?
A miserable pile of secrets.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Desna actually did a lot more than that, and actually messed with Arushalae's soul.
Instead, she reached into Arueshalae’s soul and quickened her larval core.
Not quite sure what all that entails but I'm pretty sure it goes beyond a few words of inspiration, which Desna actually didn't give.
Most Outsiders lose their memories when they become Outsiders so what Desna did doesn't seem like something lots of people can do. Not to say only Deities can redeem fiends, Desna kinda just hit the fast forward button. (Or rather, I think, she gave Arushalae completely free will and her memories back and thus allowed her to look at and judge her own actions rather than being locked into viewing/doing them a certain way. She is CN when the AP starts, rather than any Good)
The Redemption Engine by James Sutter also has a risen Fiend in it as well. They're in-process Redemption took... much longer.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Desna actually did a lot more than that, and actually messed with Arushalae's soul.Instead, she reached into Arueshalae’s soul and quickened her larval core.Not quite sure what all that entails but I'm pretty sure it goes beyond a few words of inspiration, which Desna actually didn't give.
Well, from description, all that did was give her back memories of her mortal life. Which I mentioned.
She did also explicitly whisper in her ear 'Even demons can dream.' which is what I meant by advice.
Most Outsiders lose their memories when they become Outsiders so what Desna did doesn't seem like something lots of people can do. Not to say only Deities can redeem fiends, Desna kinda just hit the fast forward button.
I'm pretty sure there are several ways a mortal can accomplish this. I bet a Wish does it if nothing else. Which, again, is what I meant by being pretty sure a mortal can do this.
(Or rather, I think, she gave Arushalae completely free will and her memories back and thus allowed her to look at and judge her own actions rather than being locked into viewing/doing them a certain way. She is CN when the AP starts, rather than any Good)
Right. I'm not disagreeing about what Desna did, I'm noting it's not inherently necessary to redeem a fiend, and that I'm pretty sure mortals can manage to duplicate all of it.
The Redemption Engine by James Sutter also has a risen Fiend in it as well. They're in-process Redemption took... much longer.
This is true. I don't believe that one even involved a deity at all, in fact.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the point is clear that even though something can be made out of "Demon stuff" doesn't mean that it's inevitably going to be evil and there's nothing that can be done about it. We're not even discussing "redeeming the baby" just "not corrupting it."
Plus, I mean, it's not even that "evil" is necessarily all that invested in the destruction of the universe. Asmodeus could probably let Rovagug out whenever he wanted to, but he doesn't want that to happen any more than anybody else does.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
what is evil ?
Evil's just, you know, like, 'live' spelled backwards, man.
Think about it.
|
|
Desna actually did a lot more than that, and actually messed with Arushalae's soul.Instead, she reached into Arueshalae’s soul and quickened her larval core.Not quite sure what all that entails but I'm pretty sure it goes beyond a few words of inspiration, which Desna actually didn't give.Well, from description, all that did was give her back memories of her mortal life. Which I mentioned.
She did also explicitly whisper in her ear 'Even demons can dream.' which is what I meant by advice.
Most Outsiders lose their memories when they become Outsiders so what Desna did doesn't seem like something lots of people can do. Not to say only Deities can redeem fiends, Desna kinda just hit the fast forward button.I'm pretty sure there are several ways a mortal can accomplish this. I bet a Wish does it if nothing else. Which, again, is what I meant by being pretty sure a mortal can do this.
(Or rather, I think, she gave Arushalae completely free will and her memories back and thus allowed her to look at and judge her own actions rather than being locked into viewing/doing them a certain way. She is CN when the AP starts, rather than any Good)Right. I'm not disagreeing about what Desna did, I'm noting it's not inherently necessary to redeem a fiend, and that I'm pretty sure mortals can manage to duplicate all of it.
The Redemption Engine by James Sutter also has a risen Fiend in it as well. They're in-process Redemption took... much longer.This is true. I don't believe that one even involved a deity at all, in fact.
*nods*
(The whisper slipped my mind)
Though I would label the wish spell under "things not a lot of people can do" :3
As for the other Risen Fiend, no deity i believe, just thousands and thousands of years of contemplation.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(The whisper slipped my mind)
Easy enough to do.
Though I would label the wish spell under "things not a lot of people can do" :3
I never said a lot of people, just non-deities. Though personally, I'd be inclined to say you could manage with limited wish or probably a custom designed spell of level 5 or so.
As for the other Risen Fiend, no deity i believe, just thousands and thousands of years of contemplation.
That's what I'm remembering too now that I think on it.
These rules govern what happens when an alignment is changed not how. There are plenty of ways to change alignment that don't involve choice.
Again, even the demon who turned good mentioned above didn't do so through appealing to her demonic self, it was through her mortal memories that should've been extinguished in the larvae phase. I'm assuming Desna used her divine power to counteract the process of extinguishing mortal memories. Which those memories may not even have been her "own" since a single corrupted mortal soul can be used to make multiple demons (beings of pure evil).
This excerpt from I believe ultimate magic (it's vague from what source but found on d20pfsrd here)
Demons exist for one reason-to destory.... Some carry in their frames humanoid shapes, while others are twisted beasts. Some flop on land while others flap in air or sea. Some are schemers and manipulators of emotion and politics, others are destructive engines of ruin. Yet all demons work to the same goal—pain and suffering for mortal life in all its forms.
... except, of course, the already-mentioned demon, you know, up-thread, that no longer does. Hence, this is, quite clearly, a general description, not a rules-explicit text.
Yes, but if, as you assert, that all choice is invalid, than angels and azatas and archons can't fall (they do), aeons can't go rogue (they do), and anything else with an inherent alignment can't change over time.
Off the top of my head:
- multiple devils (at different points) used to be angels
- Serpent's Skull has an outsider with a changed alignment
- WotR has an outsider with a changed alignment
- that one novel has an (or some) outsider(s) with (a) changed alignment(s)
I mean, it's harder to do, but even gods' alignments can change:
- Shelyn has a changed alignment (she used to be chaotic good)
- Zon-Kuthon has a changed alignment (he used to be chaotic good; also a different person, so, a weaker argument, granted)
- Asmodeus has a changed alignment (he used to be an angel; the whole "motes" thing found in the book of the damned is confirmed as apocryphal by way confirmed backstory of others)
- Ragathiel is literally the son of an archduke and fire spirit; he's managed to become an angelic demigod
- Arazni (by way of a ticked off ghost; though she was turned undead before corruption to evil, so it's a weaker argument)
That's just off the top of my head.
Of course, if you want something that fundamentally changes alignment that literally anyone can do, how about handing them a hat? I mean, yeah, sure, it's really unlikely to work for most, but if you want even better results that almost anyone can do, you could always make them a great offer. I mean, yeah, not everyone is a bard or witch... yet... and not everyone has an 11 or higher in either intelligence or charisma, but most people can manage one of those, and things like the scarred witch doctor means you don't have to (and racial heritage opens it up to humans and anything that can possibly count as "human" - such as aasimars, tieflings, half-elves, and so on).
Of course, if you want a method that involves choice, allow me to introduce you to the diplomacy rules, plus two silver-tongued humans (see the racial variant) who are very good at what they do. Taking a quick look at the additional rules shows there are a host of ways how this can suss itself out, including casting protection from evil on it five times*.
*
It is difficult for us to comprehend the absoluteness of evil that is a demon because it doesn't exist in real life. It's not a question of being born evil they are literal evil in physical form.
It really isn't that difficult, though. They have no conscience, no empathy for any other thing, no lines that they won't cross, and nothing but their own selfishness to act upon. They have no moral compass - but that doesn't mean they are a universal monolith, either. They will literally do anything they want to, if they think they can get away with it (or they think the destructive consequences to others and/or personal delight-and/or-pleasure will outweigh whatever personal suffering they endure later).
Here's the thing - not only are they actually "born" evil and are literal evil in physical form, but they're generally evil by choice; again, check out the alignment section. And listen: I'm just going to back you up and suggest that there is literally nothing wrong with detecting a demon, then smiting first and asking questions later. Paladins generally won't fall due to that, and it's really an extremely reasonable and justifiable action. "There is an extraordinarily minute chance that I might accidentally kill one good person." - while terrible - doesn't compare to, "If I don't, there is a minute chance that they will not entirely ruin the lives of many others, turn many to evil, and kill many more."
But I'm opposed to the concept of "they can't change outside of divine interference" - this is not backed up by the language of the rules, the canon of the lore, or the inference from various other sources.
It's certainly not common - but it happens. It can and it must.
... but there's nothing really evil about scan-boop-smite.
I don't like the idea of having to kill a baby, so, you know, I don't think it'll work out like "prophecy" says.
But then again, a given individual can only do what they believe "best" (a variable definition). If I'm absolutely convinced that it is super evil and will destroy this universe, no matter what, than I'll do what I can to prevent it. (Mostly, though, this involves giving it over to various PF gods.)
But, as I am now, I'm not convinced, for a host of reasons, and it seems unlikely that I'd be convinced otherwise.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would play it safe. Based off the amount of TV shows I've seen, there is a high chance the actual demon is the one making a false prophecy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think I want to get into the nature of fate here. The baby in question is assumed to be fated to destroy the universe.
If fate is the sort of thing that cannot be avoided, then it doesn't matter whether or not I kill the baby because I can't avert fate.
If fate can't be averted, except in the case where you perform certain actions (e.g. killing the demon-baby) then who's to say there are not other actions that you could take that would also avert this fate? Like, say, raising them to believe that "destroying the universe is a bad idea".
So either free will is in play here so there are things other than murder that can prevent the apocalypse, or free will is not in play here so it doesn't matter what I do so I might as well not kill anybody.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Save the baby!!!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Kill the baby!!!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Kjeldorns are right!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
wtf is kjeldorn ?
*Steals Hellatze's coin-purse*
Hahaha!!!
The distraction worked!
*Vanishes in a puff of smoke together with Good and Evil Kjeldorn*