[Insert your Deity here] is dead. How do you react?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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So, it's April 16th. The day Paizo killed your favorite PC's god. Or your favorite god.

How will you proceed, and what does the death of this deity mean for your character (true believer or cleric etc) and your Golarion campaign?

How do you think it will affect Golarion?

What should Paizo "do" for characters that have lost their god?

I don't really know a lot about the Core 20 gods - I can name: Gozreh, Abadar, Iomedae, Sarenrae, Torag, Norgorber, Rovagug, Pharasma, Zon-Kuthon, Shelyn, Calistria off the top of my head, but that's about it, and I know what about half odf them are about/up to. So I'd like to know what makes your deity's loss a big deal to you, and how you would like Paizo to...I dunno...make the loss...palatable?

My pick for who dies: Iomedae. I actually know a little bit about her, and I really like how she got to where she is. Having said that, she's kinda boring, looks like a PC and probably has enough meaning in the campaign world that her loss would bite enough to be...a wrench. But maybe she's just boring enough that she's safe.


Unless the story is masterfull and the consequences are very interesting, I'd start doubting the storytelling ability of Paizo if one of my favorite gods is killed, as I feel like they are all gods that create far more opportunity for good story if they still exist than through their demise.

Groetus, Ghlaunder, Grandmother Spider and Achaekek all feel like gods that either still have a few story to say about them, or that just make the setting more interesting by existing in it, in a way that their death would be a net loss. Fortunately none of them are from the core 20, and as I said, I'm pretty sure that they are safe simply because they are making the setting more interesting and their death wouldn't cause an interesting enough upheaval to justify their permanent removal.

Now from the core 20, Lamashtu feel pretty safe, but unlike the others, it would be much easier to weave an interesting story out of her demise. The demons would all rush to grab pieces of her power and try to take her place as the top dog of the Abbys, and the qlippoth make even use this opportunity to somewhat turn the tide on them. Gods wise, I'm prett sure a lot of deity would struggle to aqquire her dominion over beast, amongst them Rovagug, Gozreh, Erastil and probably Desna given her relationship with the original god with this domain. For the setting, an incredible number of nonhumanoid society worship her above all else, and now have to reckon with the death of their Allmother. Beast start to become less aggressive (unless rovagug aquire her dominion over them, in which case things would go from bad to worse). Evil cult over golarion as a whole would probably decline quite a bit, as Lamashtu was one of the few evil deity with a portfolio that attracted "normal" people (childbirth), and it look to me that she is some kind of "gateway evil godess", as the first evil deity that people start to follow until they grow accustomed to the evil and are now a much easier time joining other evil deities.

As for the immpact her death would have over me, I would be a bit saddenned, as I feel like she's the most interesting of the "core" evil deities, but fortunatelly there is quite a trove of interesting evil gods outside the core 20, so I wouldn't be that sad. I'd still want a new "completely monstruous and yet strangely sympathetic in some aspect" deity to step up and take her place on the front scene tho.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Honestly? I don't know. I really like Saranrae as a goddess and it would just kill a good part of my enjoyment of Golarion if she were the one to go. Also, Arazni still feels like a total "Huh? Why her, exactly?" choice for a replacement of whomever is going to have to go, at least to me.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Honestly? I don't know. I really like Saranrae as a goddess and it would just kill a good part of my enjoyment of Golarion if she were the one to go. Also, Arazni still feels like a total "Huh? Why her, exactly?" choice for a replacement of whomever is going to have to go, at least to me.

The Gods and Magic book says Arazni feels little kinship with humanity or the undead and that her followers are few. That could change of course but I think she would have to change as well to become something more than a patron of disparate survivors.


@Scarablob: thanks for reminding me, and for the cultural notes... I love Lamashtu, and I'm pretty sure I included her in a haunt in a Wayfinder adventure way back when... Would also be sad to see her go.

@Magnuskn. Yep, Sarenrae is a really awesome god, and I do like her a lot. And thus, a great choice for "making impact" by removing her.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Out of the 20 Gods of the Inner Sea, I doubt Abadar, Asmodeus, Desna, Gozreh, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, or Zon-Kuthon will be killed. They are either too powerful, have portfolios that are unique, or stories that will be completely disrupted if they are gone.

Cayden Cailean, Erastil, and Gorum are slightly less safe (IMO), but I don't see why Arazni would want to take their place. Arazni might have a beef with Urgathoa, but that would mostly remove the "evil necromantic priest BBEG" from many adventures.

I could possibly see Arazni taking over for Calistra (new god of vengeance), Iomedae (not killed, but gives up divinity to Aroden's first herald), Nethys (new god of magic), or Norgorber (new god of conspiracies, plots, and trickery?).


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dragonchess Player wrote:

Out of the 20 Gods of the Inner Sea, I doubt Abadar, Asmodeus, Desna, Gozreh, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, or Zon-Kuthon will be killed. They are either too powerful, have portfolios that are unique, or stories that will be completely disrupted if they are gone.

Cayden Cailean, Erastil, and Gorum are slightly less safe (IMO), but I don't see why Arazni would want to take their place. Arazni might have a beef with Urgathoa, but that would mostly remove the "evil necromantic priest BBEG" from many adventures.

I could possibly see Arazni taking over for Calistra (new god of vengeance), Iomedae (not killed, but gives up divinity to Aroden's first herald), Nethys (new god of magic), or Norgorber (new god of conspiracies, plots, and trickery?).

I wonder if Iomedae would see the current Arazni as worthy in purpose to become the new inheritor. Arazni doesn't care about humanity so she has lost what Iomedae used to look to her for when she was the herald of Aroden.

Maybe Calistra if they want to uncouple lust from vengeance.

Silver Crusade

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

So, it's April 16th. The day Paizo killed your favorite PC's god. Or your favorite god.

How will you proceed, and what does the death of this deity mean for your character (true believer or cleric etc) and your Golarion campaign?

It would probably mean I'd retire the character. If it was a character I liked I'd likely be seriously peeved at Paizo.

I think this is very likely to be a mistake that will make more people angry than happy (with the majority being "Meh")


Speaking of Iomedae, isn't her title - The Inheritor - because of inheriting most of the worshipers of Aroden? ... You know ... when Aroden died.


Gorum and Erastril are my favorites because Gorum is just down for a scrap and Erastril is a community centered aesthetically Fae King looking God preaching practical skills and strong local bonds; idk a god about protecting and nurturing your home resonates with me. If either of them died some of my more religious martial PCs and my one pet ranger MCed cleric would be sad indeed


My PCs wouldn't be affected much themselves, as I've not actually made any clerics for my favourite core 20 deities (Lamashtu and Abadar), because making such a character work in a party can be... complicated. But I'd still personally be rather sad to see them go. Not enough to make me quit the setting, but enough where I'd have to agonize between following canon and proceeding as normal past War of Immortals or applying some hefty retcons in my own version of the world.

Lamashtu I think is the more unlikely of the two to perish, and I don't think her death would have as world-shaking implication for Golarion as many other gods; in the end, it's the good guys getting a victory and the wilds potentially becoming safer, monsters being less monstrous. Unless something nastier gobbles up her portfolio like she did Churchanus'. Then things get worse. But the Outer Rifts infighting isn't likely to be impactful to the setting, as... they already kinda do that. Maybe Pazuzu would finally realise he can ascend to Godhood, but that's the biggest development from that corner of the outer sphere. No I do not want to be proven wrong, I'm still huffing copium.

Abadar is a bit more complicated. He's essentially the most important deity in Axis, and his domain is cities. And he's one of the old ones, unlike some risen deities like Norgorber and Lamashtu. Would his death fracture the structure of large cities and lead to people spreading out across the countryside instead? It's hard to gauge the impact of a loss like that, and if there would even be noticeable effect.

Anyway, no matter which god is killed, they're gonna be someone's favourite. I don't think there's any core 20 god that I dislike. I'm really interested what story they'll tell from this.


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I'm confident that Ng will survive since there doesn't seem to be anything gained from offing Ng. Like something might change when Ng dies, but if you could tell what it is, then you'd know something about Ng and Ng wouldn't allow that.

So I'd figure it was a feint.


I'm not sure any of my favorite deities are in the Core 20; not that the Core 20 hasn't got some fun deities.

As for my fave dying, that might actually be Groetus, mostly thanks to one of my few clerics I built being lots of fun at the table. The embodiment of the end times up and vanishing would certainly be an interesting shake-up though, so I'm not sure I'd be too upset.


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My Kitsune bard/cleric of Shelyn would have a sickening sense of deja vu. When she found her mom murdered as a kid, she immediately ran to the local shrine of Shelyn in a panic because it was the safest place she knew. Now the one who provided comfort in her darkest hour is herself dead? She's going to go to a dark, dark place, one that she'll only start getting out of when she realizes that there are still people who need her help.

As a player, I would hope that this event would shock Zon Kuthon out of his current state. I wouldn't expect him to go Team Good exactly, but maybe he would start fighting with whatever entity is influencing him a bit more. Maybe he would "accidentally" let the Prince in Chains go to mourn his daughter. In any case, it would make for an interesting development...


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Here's my complete ranking (with explanations) of which god is going to die, from most safe to least safe. Personal opinion and preferences may apply!

20.

Pharasma:
Literally confirmed safe.

19.

Rovagug:
The "Ragnarok god" being removed would be anticlimatic, boring, and frankly I have no idea if Rovagug CAN be killed.

18.

Gorum:
Does anyone even remember who Gorum is? I mean honestly, killing off Gorum (and a few other gods on this list) would be a waste of the hype train they're trying to build here.

17.

Abadar:
Killing off the god of banking, while a vaguely amusing allegory for the 2008 Lehman Brothers meltdown, is unlikely to make most players go "wow."

16.

Irori:
Does anything...actually happen...if Irori dies?

15.

Nethys:
Because Paizo is not stupid and is not going to repeat the sins of TSR by killing and resurrecting Mystra 3 separate times.

14.

Gozreh:
While again an amusing allegory for climate change, killing off Gozreh does not exactly make me sit up and care.

13.

Erastil:
There's an argument to be made here since Erastil used to be somewhat sexist and Paizo has an interest in scrubbing out some of the iffier stuff they've done in the past. But killing off Erastil would be a ham-fisted way of doing it and I'm not sure that many people would care about "the ranger god" biting the dust.

12.

Torag:
Other than dwarves, this doesn't have a lot of impact, and I'm not sure how many people know he exists.

11.

Shelyn:
Because fridging the god of gay people would make a lot of people very, very, very angry. However...I can see her fusing with Zon-Kuthon. More on that below.

10.

Iomedae:
The iconic god of paladins is unlikely to die, because there isn't an obvious replacement for the paladins to worship.

9.

Norgorber:
He's evil, which makes him more of an option. But I don't know how popular he is with the fanbase, and he isn't THAT unique to the setting, so there's only so much drama you can get out of him.

8.

Cayden Cailean:
He's popular, which puts a target on his back (though also gives him some protection). On the other hand, him dying wouldn't have a global setting impact. Definitely possible for shock value, though.

7.

Desna:
Again, very popular, very distinctive to Golarion. Her popularity means that her biting the dust would divide the fanbase, however, and is therefore less likely than some of the other gods on this list.

6.

Asmodeus:
Evil, meaning players won't be mad if he dies. He's extremely iconic, which might well keep him safe. Also, the fact that Hell has many possible successors but none quite so...well known.

5.

Lamashtu:
Jacobs has said in the past that she's not going anywhere, but I don't know if this arc had been written when he said that. Her themes are extremely mature and somewhat...edgy. Meaning she has a target on her back, as Paizo has been pruning back on those since mid 2021. However, she's quite iconic, which offers her some protection. And with Nocticula gone it means the Abyss doesn't really have a head demon if she dies.

4.

Calistria:
Again, very edgy, quite mature. I can see Paizo wanting to give her the axe on general principle. She's also decently but not absurdly (in the same way Desna, Sarenrae, and Cayden Cailean are) popular, so she could be killed off.

3.

Sarenrae:
There are hints that she might get killed off. However, she's also the most iconic god in the setting and there are a LOT of players who would be very mad about their patron god dying. I'm not sure she should be this high...but it would probably be the most dramatic pick possible.

2.

Urgathoa:
She's evil, meaning she has less player love to help her. She also occupies a similar-ish niche to Arazni and Pharasma, and I'm not sure if the Core 20 really need THREE death gods. Her "indulgence" domain and general ick factor also mean that she's a decent pick to go. But she's still beaten out by...

1.

Zon-Kuthon:
He's literally the god of BDSM. There is no edgier deity, and he's evil as well, meaning he can be killed with fewer players getting up in arms. Furthermore, if you take him out and fuse him with Shelyn (which Starfinder tells us is an option with their Zon-Shelyn) you get to "kill" a god without actually killing a god, thereby making it less likely the audience gets mad. And of course, fusing him with Shelyn means you get more wholesome BDSM than he currently represents. Definitely my pick by a mile.


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Dragonchess Player wrote:

Out of the 20 Gods of the Inner Sea, I doubt Abadar, Asmodeus, Desna, Gozreh, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, or Zon-Kuthon will be killed. They are either too powerful, have portfolios that are unique, or stories that will be completely disrupted if they are gone.

Cayden Cailean, Erastil, and Gorum are slightly less safe (IMO), but I don't see why Arazni would want to take their place. Arazni might have a beef with Urgathoa, but that would mostly remove the "evil necromantic priest BBEG" from many adventures.

I could possibly see Arazni taking over for Calistra (new god of vengeance), Iomedae (not killed, but gives up divinity to Aroden's first herald), Nethys (new god of magic), or Norgorber (new god of conspiracies, plots, and trickery?).

Reminder: Whichever god that dies, Arazni is NOT taking over their spot. She'll be elevated as a Core 20 god, but she will not inherit whatever domains or preferences the slain god had control over.

So yes, Cayden Cailean can keel over from alcohol poisoning in WoI, and Arazni won't have to join a fraternity in order to become a Core 20 god. She can remain a non-drinker. Or whatever her preference is.


I don't have a favorite in the core pantheon (though I quite like the addition of Arazni!), so none of the options would truly break my heart. I'd certainly scrunch my face up at certain decisions, though: killing off part of their happy poly lesbian triad feels like PR suicide, while the death of Torag right after spending Sky King's Tomb prompting introspection among his clergy would be kind of wasteful, that sort of thing.

Most of my non-core favorites should (hopefully) be safe; I can't imagine any good reason to slay Brigh, Casandalee, or Kazutal.


@Calliope5431: I enjoyed that quite a lot. Your posited "who even knows/cares about xyz" struck more than a few chords with me - Gorum, Torag, Irori etc. And yes, given Oceanshieldwolf likes Lamashtu, there's even *more* reason to see her go. Also: "fridging". Nice.

@Keftiu: I know of Brigh and Casandalee, but not Kazutal. Will check them out.


pauljathome wrote:
OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

So, it's April 16th. The day Paizo killed your favorite PC's god. Or your favorite god.

How will you proceed, and what does the death of this deity mean for your character (true believer or cleric etc) and your Golarion campaign?

...

I think this is very likely to be a mistake that will make more people angry than happy (with the majority being "Meh")

Yep, I'm not seeing the value in this at all. Most folks won't actually care either way I feel, while deliberately antagonising a subset of fans is...a weird take on "let's grow the fanbase". Personally, if my beloved deity was killed off I'd (as a player) chalk it up to "grand narratives will be grand", and move on. But I'm not seeing such pragmatism evinced hereabouts...

On the other hand, I do like that Paizo doesn't mind shaking things up a little, and that they move the world timeline on...though I have heard that similar ideas didn't go down so well in Realms I've completely Forgotten.


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OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
@Keftiu: I know of Brigh and Casandalee, but not Kazutal. Will check them out.

Jaguar protector goddess from Arcadia, with a growing cult in the Inner Sea - you mostly get her in Gods & Magic and Knights of Lastwall, but there's a tiny bit of her in 1e, too. I'm excited to see more of her once PF2's attention pivots from Tian Xia!


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It's going to be down to the way its handled.

I think I have a certain amount of favouritism towards Sarenrae and Shelyn for a variety of reasons. Either of them being taken out would sadden me and complicate things; but if it's done in a compelling way it could work out well.

I do, however, have this fundamental feeling that the changes to the Prismatic Ray will not be because of death, but either an addition to the pantheon, or as I suspect, a partial breakup.

There's a reason Zon Kuthon is high on my list of who is going to perish; and his relationship to Shelyn, and what she may do if he passes, is a big one for me.


I would be displeased if Sarenrae dies. I could see Sarenrae sacrificing herself in some great act to protect the good, but she is a very cool deity.

Most of the others, I don't care that much.

I'm still wondering if they get to keep Asmodeus and the Hell Pantheon or if that is too connected to D&D to keep. Seems their entire version of Hell might have to be reformed and this would be a good time to do it.


I have a Sorcerer of Sarenrae. I think it'd be fine for me if she ever dies, I'd have to play how he moves to another faith, which is a funny story. And anyway, he won't lose any of his powers so mechanically there won't be any change.

I have an Oracle of Lamashtu. Clearly, if she dies, the entire concept could become moot. But because she's an Oracle, I can just keep her as is. After all, everyone remembers of Lamashtu and as such she'll still work as intended.

Luckily, I don't play Cleric in PF2. And my Paladin is following Vildeis so no risk for her.

So I'd be fine. Besides Clerics and Paladins, actually, no class would really be affected. So I'm not sure that many people will be pissed.

Dark Archive

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Reminder that it's been confirmed that more than 1 deity is dying, just only 1 of the core.

My current character's deity is Apsu, who could use some love.
I wouldn't care if he died, but Tik would be totally distraught. Lose a lot of faith in probably everything. Maybe ends up a nihilist.
Would make the rest of Age of Ashes real different for him.

And my group's favorite is def. Milani, who hasn't had much content lately. They'd probably find it lame, since it'd be a low-impact kill.


Ectar wrote:
Reminder that it's been confirmed that more than 1 deity is dying, just only 1 of the core.

Well, then, I don't think it'll affect my Paladin much from a roleplay perspective. But the issue raised may be more mechanical, as she's using daggers and finding a good deity roughly in line with Vildeis with the dagger as Favored Weapon can be impossible.

But I expect the GM to allow me to keep my build from a mechanical point of view.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If any of my favorite Core deity (Shelyn), my favorite deity (Arshea), or my favorite obscure deity (Cixyron) died, I would be really distraught. Whilst I seriously would be amazed if either of those last two bites the bullet, with Shelyn (who to be fair I also see as incredibly unlikely, just not quite as much) if she's announced to be the one to die on the 16th, I'd be distraught but then for the entire next half year be just like, massively making conspiracies on how it'll happen and be just really dreading/waiting for the actual story where she dies to drop so I can see how it happens and just... hope it's alternatively fulfilling.


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As an Arodenite I haven't figured this out yet.

Envoy's Alliance

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So strangely I would want it to be one of my favorites: Cayden Cailean. He makes the most sense as, like Norgorber and Iomedae, he was originally mortal. And while Arazni wouldn't step in to cover his entire domain, one of them does overlap with her: Freedom.

I just see priests of Cayden Cailean waking up to find their powers no longer work, find out he died, heave a heavy sigh and ask the source of the news "Okay, so how drunk was he when he did that?"


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If Zon-Kuthon kicks the bucket, I'm interested to see the rise of Velstrac Demigogue and return of the Forsaken as well as the turmoil in Nidal.

But I would be kind of saddened, I've had good times with my Champion of Zon-Kuthon and the Nidalese diplomat I've had in our Blood Lords campaign.


Eldritch Yodel wrote:
If any of my favorite Core deity (Shelyn), my favorite deity (Arshea), or my favorite obscure deity (Cixyron) died, I would be really distraught. Whilst I seriously would be amazed if either of those last two bites the bullet, with Shelyn (who to be fair I also see as incredibly unlikely, just not quite as much) if she's announced to be the one to die on the 16th, I'd be distraught but then for the entire next half year be just like, massively making conspiracies on how it'll happen and be just really dreading/waiting for the actual story where she dies to drop so I can see how it happens and just... hope it's alternatively fulfilling.

Arshea would be an even worse PR disaster than Shelyn, honestly. And may be better known than a third of the core 20.

Vigilant Seal

*looks dead-eyed*

I would take up my weapon, walk into the nearest pit of evil, and cleanse the world until I died of it.

The boy... the boy would live.


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Worth noting, for those of you out there going "Well, mine isn't in the Core 20, so I'm safe."... you're not. They've stated that in addition to taking out one of the core 20, they're going to be killing off multiple gods who are not in the core 20.


I'm pretty sure that Achaekek, Grandmother Spider, and Groetus are safe. Groetus is the kind of god that wouldn't make any sense to kill, Achaekek is the patron of a very popular organisation that is about to receive an adventure, and Grandma is simply more interesting being kept alive rather than killed, on top of being one of the most popular "non core" godess.

Now, for Ghlaunder... I really hope he doesn't die, but I can't be so sure. I could see him being a "sacrificial lamb", in a "we need to kill at least one evil god, might as well pick him" kind of deal. Not much have been done with him so far, and I feel like there's quite a few stories about Ghlaunder cults that are left to tell, so I really hope they don't end him.

Silver Crusade

MadamReshi wrote:

It's going to be down to the way its handled.

Only to a very limited extent.

Don't forget that a LOT of players will not even be buying the book so the first time they hear about it will be when they sit down at the table and are told that their character is now illegal (or has no spells, or whatever).

This will be especially true in PFS. You know, the public relations/outreach thing designed to entice new players. The new players who won't have read the book but will be supremely peeved to find that their cleric of <whomever> must suddenly change.

As I say. I think this is overall a bad thing. I (very sincerely) hope that I am wrong about that


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pauljathome wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

It's going to be down to the way its handled.

Only to a very limited extent.

Don't forget that a LOT of players will not even be buying the book so the first time they hear about it will be when they sit down at the table and are told that their character is now illegal (or has no spells, or whatever).

This will be especially true in PFS. You know, the public relations/outreach thing designed to entice new players. The new players who won't have read the book but will be supremely peeved to find that their cleric of <whomever> must suddenly change.

As I say. I think this is overall a bad thing. I (very sincerely) hope that I am wrong about that

Pretty sure that PFS is going to be flexible on that one for a while yet.

Like, you can still play adventures from Year 1, you know? Updates that are driven by remaster-style rules changes are somewhat forced, and even those are at the "you can keep your existing characters functioning under the old rules, you just cant' make new ones" level. I'm pretty sure that "must suddenly change" isn't in the cards for an event that's more lore-driven than anythign else.

As you say, PFS is about enticing new players... and they're not dumb about it.

Side note: I don't think that Zon-Kuthon is going to get the axe, if only because it would make Nidal so much less interesting.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Worth noting, for those of you out there going "Well, mine isn't in the Core 20, so I'm safe."... you're not. They've stated that in addition to taking out one of the core 20, they're going to be killing off multiple gods who are not in the core 20.

Considering how Vildeis is problematic, then I think she'll get the axe.

Anyway, I'm playing my Paladin in Age of Ashes, so it's not really a big deal to me.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

It's going to be down to the way its handled.

Only to a very limited extent.

Don't forget that a LOT of players will not even be buying the book so the first time they hear about it will be when they sit down at the table and are told that their character is now illegal (or has no spells, or whatever).

This will be especially true in PFS. You know, the public relations/outreach thing designed to entice new players. The new players who won't have read the book but will be supremely peeved to find that their cleric of <whomever> must suddenly change.

As I say. I think this is overall a bad thing. I (very sincerely) hope that I am wrong about that

Pretty sure that PFS is going to be flexible on that one for a while yet.

Like, you can still play adventures from Year 1, you know? Updates that are driven by remaster-style rules changes are somewhat forced, and even those are at the "you can keep your existing characters functioning under the old rules, you just cant' make new ones" level. I'm pretty sure that "must suddenly change" isn't in the cards for an event that's more lore-driven than anythign else.

As you say, PFS is about enticing new players... and they're not dumb about it.

Side note: I don't think that Zon-Kuthon is going to get the axe, if only because it would make Nidal so much less interesting.

Depends who takes over as Nidal's patron...

My biggest argument for why Zon-Kuthon dies is because he's an evil god (ergo fewer players impacted) and because his themes are pretty edgy/arguably problematic.

Plus the Zon-Shelyn stuff in starfinder (I know they don't have to synch... but what GM wants to explain the difference between Zon-Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon to new players?) and the comments regarding the Prismatic Ray changing.


SuperBidi wrote:

Considering how Vildeis is problematic, then I think she'll get the axe.

Anyway, I'm playing my Paladin in Age of Ashes, so it's not really a big deal to me.

I don't necessarily agree with the "problematic" here... but it would certainly be on-brand for her to go out in a blaze of glory, especially if she was able to take an appropriately evil god out with her.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
I don't necessarily agree with the "problematic" here...

A "lawful good" deity encouraging self-mortification?

For me, it relates to catholic integrism in particular and religious integrism in general. And from my point of view and culture (I'm not from the US) it's not at all "lawful good" and the fact that she's "lawful good" is problematic to me.

Now, I can see clear disagreements on that question depending on your culture and religion. And as I don't want to hurt anyone, I won't go on with this discussion (or through MPs as at least I can control who reads it).


SuperBidi wrote:

A "lawful good" deity encouraging self-mortification?

For me, it relates to catholic integrism in particular and religious integrism in general. And from my point of view and culture (I'm not from the US) it's not at all "lawful good" and the fact that she's "lawful good" is problematic to me.

Now, I can see clear disagreements on that question depending on your culture and religion. And as I don't want to hurt anyone, I won't go on with this discussion (or through MPs as at least I can control who reads it).

Fortunately, the removal of strict alignment as a whole will remove the unfortunate implication that everything a "good" deity does is tacitaly endorsed by Paizo, and that everything an "evil" deity does is tacitaly condemned by them.

Sure, some gods will still be tied to "good" planes and some to "evil" planes, but not literally slapping a "good" and "evil" tag on the deity themselves will go a long way. First because gods already don't need to exactly fit their planes, like Gorum or Norgrober show. And because it allow for a more "alien" interpretation of the outer planes, that the simplistic alignment, being quite literally named "good" and "bad" didn't leave room for.


...and while I can see the argument that "self-sacrifice at an unhealthy level" might feel twitchy as an exemplar of "Lawful Good", I don't think there's any question that she counts just fine as "signed up for the War in Heaven on the side of the angels".

But yeah... chalk this one up as yet another reason (in retrospect) why ditching the alignment system was actually a good thing.

Sometimes you don't realize how toxic something was until you're clear of it.

Grand Archive

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

None of them are "good" picks to me except Asmodeus.

As my favorite is not in the Core 20 (Besmara) she is "safe" but I probably would not care much as I could just keep her alive in my games.

Of the two I think are most likely my thoughts are along the lines of:

#1 Asmodeus: Thank god, his artwork across all D&D and pathfinder has always sucked lets bring Mephistopheles up to bat and call it a day. Plus, if Sarenrae does it we can have some art of her cutting him in half with the tagline "Ihys Avenged" or something.

#2 Sarenrae : Ah well don't really care much. So long Golarion Jesus you had some good artwork unlike Asmodeus at least.

My thoughts are as superficial as my interest. So I default to whose art I liked the least lol.

Edit: Also I know it doesn't exactly fit but if it is one of the female deities it gives me odd "woman in the fridge" vibes for some reason.


Zoken44 wrote:

So strangely I would want it to be one of my favorites: Cayden Cailean. He makes the most sense as, like Norgorber and Iomedae, he was originally mortal. And while Arazni wouldn't step in to cover his entire domain, one of them does overlap with her: Freedom.

I just see priests of Cayden Cailean waking up to find their powers no longer work, find out he died, heave a heavy sigh and ask the source of the news "Okay, so how drunk was he when he did that?"

And after that: "Let's have a drink." To you know, toast his magnifinebriatedness... Twice. At least.

I can see him going the way of the dodo. But also, why bother? It's not exactly Golarion-shattering. Except for his aforementioned adherents.


(I'm definitely learning a lot not only about Golarion's lesser (and more well) known deities; but also how folx and their characters interact with them, so thank you everyone so far...)


Sanityfaerie wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

It's going to be down to the way its handled.

Only to a very limited extent.

Don't forget that a LOT of players will not even be buying the book so the first time they hear about it will be when they sit down at the table and are told that their character is now illegal (or has no spells, or whatever).

This will be especially true in PFS. You know, the public relations/outreach thing designed to entice new players. The new players who won't have read the book but will be supremely peeved to find that their cleric of <whomever> must suddenly change.

As I say. I think this is overall a bad thing. I (very sincerely) hope that I am wrong about that

Pretty sure that PFS is going to be flexible on that one for a while yet.

Like, you can still play adventures from Year 1, you know? Updates that are driven by remaster-style rules changes are somewhat forced, and even those are at the "you can keep your existing characters functioning under the old rules, you just cant' make new ones" level. I'm pretty sure that "must suddenly change" isn't in the cards for an event that's more lore-driven than anythign else.

As you say, PFS is about enticing new players... and they're not dumb about it.

Yes, good points Sanityfaerie. I feel like there would be ample time to "retrain" one's deity or "retire" the character. I'm sure the devs have given a lot of thought into how to ameliorate the shock for those characters who will lose [redacted]. I guess there will be quite a shakeup in terms of domains and clerics/paladins etc. I'm quietly looking forward to a clean sweep to shake things up, but that is incredibly easy for me as a) I don't play devout characters that often and b) as an IRL atheist its all incredibly silly.

Of course, a whole bunch of living, breathing, actually-extant super-powered individuals and their millions of deity-gifted-power-mad devotees might have a word to say about that...

Liberty's Edge

Scarablob wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

A "lawful good" deity encouraging self-mortification?

For me, it relates to catholic integrism in particular and religious integrism in general. And from my point of view and culture (I'm not from the US) it's not at all "lawful good" and the fact that she's "lawful good" is problematic to me.

Now, I can see clear disagreements on that question depending on your culture and religion. And as I don't want to hurt anyone, I won't go on with this discussion (or through MPs as at least I can control who reads it).

Fortunately, the removal of strict alignment as a whole will remove the unfortunate implication that everything a "good" deity does is tacitaly endorsed by Paizo, and that everything an "evil" deity does is tacitaly condemned by them.

Sure, some gods will still be tied to "good" planes and some to "evil" planes, but not literally slapping a "good" and "evil" tag on the deity themselves will go a long way. First because gods already don't need to exactly fit their planes, like Gorum or Norgrober show. And because it allow for a more "alien" interpretation of the outer planes, that the simplistic alignment, being quite literally named "good" and "bad" didn't leave room for.

Holy and Unholy are very telling about the deities.


Sanityfaerie wrote:

...and while I can see the argument that "self-sacrifice at an unhealthy level" might feel twitchy as an exemplar of "Lawful Good", I don't think there's any question that she counts just fine as "signed up for the War in Heaven on the side of the angels".

But yeah... chalk this one up as yet another reason (in retrospect) why ditching the alignment system was actually a good thing.

Sometimes you don't realize how toxic something was until you're clear of it.

Yeah I don't think "cannot bear to see evil exist" is actually sketchy. There are plenty of real life people who cannot bear to see the different manifestations of evil exist (racism, genocide, cruelty to animals).

She has vibes that you see in a lot of mythology and religion, ranging from Bhishma on his bed of arrows in the Mahabharata to Oedipus Rex putting his eyes out rather than look upon the horror he has unwittingly created. It's very realistic.

Anyway, that's my long form way to say that I hope she survives.


The Raven Black wrote:
Holy and Unholy are very telling about the deities.

It is, but it's far less "clear cut" than "good" and "evil" was. There is about a million fantasy stories where the angels are (secretly or not) just as bad and alien as the demons.

"Holy" and "unholy" allow the outer sphere to have a bit of "alienness" to them, and to decouple them from an absolute morality that "good" and "evil" imply. It doesn't say "this is absolutely good" anymore, instead it say "this is the view of someone on the celestial side".

And even if the celestial side is pretty much "the good side", Anyone understand that "the good side" can have bad part, and that "the bad side" can have some good part. Which isn't the case when presented as "this is the Absolute Good, and the Absolute Evil".


The Raven Black wrote:
Holy and Unholy are very telling about the deities.

Sure... but they tell different things than alignment did.

Like, being Holy doesn't mean that you are necessarily "good". It really means two things.

- You signed up on the side of the angels in the War in Heaven.
- (possibly) Some appropriate authority on that side accepted you.

So it does say a lot about their feelings on certain matters, and who they're willing to associate with. If a deity asserts that all of their followers must have Holy sanctification, then they probably aren't particularly friendly with Asmodeus. At the same time... you could very easily have some minor deity who was a really very unpleasant individual, utterly obsessed with personal revenge against (greater evil deity here) to an unhealthy degree, with a bevy of profound personality flaws... and they'd want that holy sanctification, and there's a good chance they could get it. They wouldn't have been any kind of "Good" under the old system - probably Chaotic Neutral at best - but they can be Holy, and even obligate Holy.

Calliope5431 wrote:
Anyway, that's my long form way to say that I hope she survives.

I'm actually cool either way on whether or not she survives... but if she dies, I hope she dies well - ideally taking an evil deity of equal or greater value out with her.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Coordinator

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pauljathome wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

It's going to be down to the way its handled.

Only to a very limited extent.

Don't forget that a LOT of players will not even be buying the book so the first time they hear about it will be when they sit down at the table and are told that their character is now illegal (or has no spells, or whatever).

This will be especially true in PFS. You know, the public relations/outreach thing designed to entice new players. The new players who won't have read the book but will be supremely peeved to find that their cleric of <whomever> must suddenly change.

As I say. I think this is overall a bad thing. I (very sincerely) hope that I am wrong about that

Please don't read any hints into this post.

If there are any gods on the chopping block who are currently PFS-legal, I can assure you that our method of handling this change absolutely would not be "sorry, all your characters are illegal now, update them immediately or suffer Consequences."

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