MadamReshi's page

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Thank you for your stories and for the wonderful items!

The diversity of different cultures here is simply wonderful.

An entire setting book covering cultures of indigenous peoples and their cultures translated to the world of Lost Omens would be pretty cool.


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SatiricalBard wrote:

I think the always clear clarified but always RAW changed why Paizo why 'deadlier' rules would make for an excellent official variant rule, for those groups wanting a 'grittier' game.

(Struckthrough text added for some light humour about the huge arguments we've all engaged in for the past few weeks - I am solidly behind Mark Seifter's probably over-optimistic hope on Reddit for this to bring about a "peaceful conclusion to the discourse")

I think it'd make for a great rules variant too for particularly deadly game and a particularly well optimised group; rather than throwing harder encounters consistently and making things too difficult in that area, having a game where death can come more suddenly could be quite an interesting variant.


Historical question: does the proliferation of low light and darkvision across both Pathfinder and D&D come from D&D 3e, or does it have its origins earlier? I'm guessing the reason for it being so common is that because it was common in the systems common ancestors.


The Fantasy Grounds post in question.


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Basically what I'm taking away from this is that Sandpoint deserves those Seven Dooms.


This is the first adventure path that I have read and makes me instantly wonder if I should get a group to play it (after reading it!)

Not that the others haven't been interesting, but as a new GM this is the first one that has gotten me really, really excited into running it straight.


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I am personally quibbling whether this is pure errata or clarification because of the fact that this discrepancy has existed between two sources - the Core Rulebook and the GM Screen - since the start, but the Core Rulebook has won out, because it is the main game source over an accessory product and it is what is available on online sources. However, neither have been errata'd to match the other until now.

And it's causing a lot of confusion because it seems to make the game harder and lead to major debates over the 'right' course of action to take when someone is unconscious, that didn't exist before. And it affects anyone playing PFS who are going to use the clarified / errata'd rules.

Is there any variant in the new GM Core that has less deadly rules around Dying, Wounded and Recovery Checks?


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A different rule preference does not confer whether a group is 'sane' or not. Can we stop using loaded language? I don't even like what the rule is supposed to be. But insults do not lead to a constructive conversation.

The thing is, the Core Rulebook and the GM Screen have always disagreed; and they were released on the same day. The GM Screen states:

"Any time you gain the dying condition or increase it for any reason, add your wounded value to the amount you gain or increase your dying value. The wounded condition ends if you receive HP from Treat Wounds, or if you’re restored to full HP and rest for 10 minutes."

This verbage is apparently what playtest documents stated before.

So. Is this a mistake in the GM Screen, or the Core Rulebook?

It seems the Remaster assumes that the Core Rulebook was wrong.


From everything I see, I intend to use everything, and officially say that I am house ruling the rules around the Dying and Wound condition, and how Recovery Checks work.

Everything else I've seen looks like changes I agree with.


That is all fair. I didn't mean to distract the thread with my musings.

I really would like to ask this question in any of the streams or videos by content creators coming out over the next two weeks. Or maybe I should just calm myself and wait for the PDF release =p


SuperBidi wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

I can see that; but it is a major setback to lose a weapon that has runes on it, economy wise, and it's a major disadvantage if the fight is otherwise winnable, especially if it's important story wise - for example, it's totally possible for a fight to go in a way for a melee martial to have been the only one taking significant damage, while the rest of the party has only last resources; and several enemies are well damaged or dead.

In that scenario, getting up and running away without your weapon takes you out of the fight unless you have a backup... which I suppose may be wise, but is expensive. And that could cause friction at the table, or at-least cause issues for the Martial player in question unless they have another form of contribution.

It's also uneven in who it affects; quiet a number of Monks are going to be fun.

It is an interesting balance point, though I'm not sure how fun it is; on the one hand, it is quite a powerful thing for anyone reliant on unarmed attacks, or have backup weapons and magic items to support that, or those who carry ranged and melee weapons about. On the other hand, anyone using a shield is going to suffer.

It is something I'll keep an eye on, no matter what rules I'm running.

I was speaking of a case where the character is running away. If you're planning on staying here, you should recover your weapon but then you are not really running away.

Or you can leave your weapon and retrieve it if needed in later rounds. If you are running away from the enemies, chances are high you won't try to get to melee range soon and should use your ranged option in the meantime instead. If you don't have a ranged option then you should have one.

And if you care more about losing a weapon than your character, well, to each their own. But I tend to dislike this kind of reasoning that I find extremely metagamey (as I'm pretty sure the player considers their character can't die or that a resurrection is not really costly compared to a fully runed...

To be fair, I haven't played; I'm seeing it from the perspective of a GM, and I might be looking at this too much from the worry of 'what if the players decisions could make it difficult for them to get weapons? What adaptions am I going to make to solve this?' As an actual player, I would care more about my life.


SuperBidi wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:
which is kind of a problem for Martials in particular, who have to spend an action to get up, *and* an action to grab their weapon, and then have to Stride - or Step
I love it when martials are running for their life and spend an action grabbing their weapon. I killed at least one of them because of this mistake. Don't grab your weapon if you intent to run away, it's suicidal and pointless.

I can see that; but it is a major setback to lose a weapon that has runes on it, economy wise, and it's a major disadvantage if the fight is otherwise winnable, especially if it's important story wise - for example, it's totally possible for a fight to go in a way for a melee martial to have been the only one taking significant damage, while the rest of the party has only last resources; and several enemies are well damaged or dead.

In that scenario, getting up and running away without your weapon takes you out of the fight unless you have a backup... which I suppose may be wise, but is expensive. And that could cause friction at the table, or at-least cause issues for the Martial player in question unless they have another form of contribution.

It's also uneven in who it affects; quiet a number of Monks are going to be fun.

It is an interesting balance point, though I'm not sure how fun it is; on the one hand, it is quite a powerful thing for anyone reliant on unarmed attacks, or have backup weapons and magic items to support that, or those who carry ranged and melee weapons about. On the other hand, anyone using a shield is going to suffer.

It is something I'll keep an eye on, no matter what rules I'm running.


I admit; I'm not a fan of this.

While it does me going down once is okay if you get stabilised (and are facing enemies who won't just finish you off and you aren't hit by persistent damage), dying potentially instantly on one failed recovery roll once when you have Wounded 1 is extremely punishing. Essentially, if you get revived, you HAVE to run - which is kind of a problem for Martials in particular, who have to spend an action to get up, *and* an action to grab their weapon, and then have to Stride - or Step, if they're in range of an enemy (because while only 1/4 enemies have Attack of Opportunity, how can you ever truly know unless you've moved out of range before?) You'd need to be heal substantially and protected for that to work.

Ironically, this does give a serious advantage to Casters; they can get up, Step or Stride, and then Stride again.

... I just don't know. I feel this is too deadly and I wonder if this is partly why there is a gap between people who feel the game is too deadly versus people like I that feel the game is dangerous but not too dangerous; if the former were running RAW and RAI, then I think that criticism starts to be less based on the severity of encounters ran and perhaps some mistakes on players and GM parts, and more so that the rest of us were running a kinder version of the game...

I think this should be an optional rule, honestly. Wounded adding to your initial Dying condition - making it so that, if you're Wounded 1, one Critical Fail is all it takes to end you - is already a powerful incentive to to make sure someone doesn't go down, make sure they are stabilised, and clear enemies away from them.

With this rule in place, it's fairly arguable you shouldn't heal them at all until the end of the fight - because it seems like it's much more likely for them to die if you heal them and bring them back up at all, rather than giving them some chance at running and being more of a tactical decision.

Note, I'm a rather junior GM; only about 22 or 23 sessions under my belt, and I've only ran a few severe encounters - and I've only had a character gain Wounded once. Perhaps my view if this is rather skewed by my general worry of making encounters too hard and killing newer players or characters - to the point I may be making encounters a bit easier than the players could actually handle. But that fear is without the clarified RAW and without adding Wounded to every time you gain Dying. If I followed RAW and RAI, I would be even more afrad


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By the by, there's now a Tan Ripper who's also one and two starring every Pathfinder 2e product.

I don't want to be cranky, but please Paizo, can this be dealt with? Or can someone explain an easy way to leave a review on a product? This is actually making it very hard to evaluate whether any Pathfinder 2e book is worth it, because a heckler's veto is being applied to the products and being one and two starred in such a blatantly false way. There's no way this isn't spam, considering they are all blank reviews and it's every 2e product.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Trained skills lose value over time as the game assumes proficiency boosts in all skills ever acquired. This is why Intelligence is a bad stat.

The GM isn't supposed to make every skill check an a level based skill check though. You are supposed to continue using both lower level and simple DC trained, expert etc. skills when it is appropriate. Mind you I haven't ran higher levels and I don't know how adventure paths handle this, but for a lot of skills, especially ones like Athletics and so, I think it's pretty important to have those less intensive checks still there

After all, it serves to help highlight those who have invested in those skills versus who hasn't when, say, your party ends up falling into a stormy sea, and some automatically always Crit Succeed their rolls, some nearly always succeed - and some need help to stay above water.


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Temperans wrote:
I think its weirder that some people are against playing the game for what it is: A combat simulator with a splash of RP and a heaping dose of worldbuilding.

Different people get different things out of a TTRPG.

Yes, a significant amount of focus on Pathfinder 2e is on the combat. But it's a flexible enough system that you could have skill challenges without combat and focus mostly on roleplay, diplomacy, and saving people rather than fighting something and still have a great time.

People just have a different way of playing and running things, so I think it's weird to say that people are 'against playing the game for what it is' when their concept of the game is different to yours and the system is very clearly designed to support that type of play. The subsystems available, including some for much more narrative based combat, along with the extensive skill and skill feat system, make that clear.


Sy Kerraduess wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:
I don't think you understand. In the Elementialist spell list, you can select the Inner Sea Elementialist option to see the exact same spells as the old archetype. The same content is still there.
I think you may be confusing the split between 4 and 6 elements with the remaster changes. Right now Inner Sea Elementalism on AON doesn't have its pre-remaster only spells like Blistering Invective.

Ah okay. Understood.


DemonicDem wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:
DemonicDem wrote:
GameDesignerDM wrote:
DemonicDem wrote:
GameDesignerDM wrote:
DemonicDem wrote:
Aaron Shanks wrote:

Hey players, Happy Equinox.

As you’re discussing the remaster changes, kindly be aware that the remaster reflects the rules we are using going forward, but that no content is being banned at your tables. We need to publish what we need to publish for the legal health and safety of our company—and we’re adding improvements to the game along the way. But nothing we’re printing should be considered a subtraction from the game you love. All the options will still be in the System Reference Document at Archives of Nethys.

The Remaster Project is a process. We’re going to be remastering Pathfinder at least into Gen Con 2024 with Player Core 2. And that doesn’t even address the errata that our design team may consider for every rule published after the Advanced Player’s Guide.

In short, a blended OGL/ORC experience should be expected for many months. And we’re never, we can’t, put an end date on what you play at your tables. We’re not coming to your home and taking away your older books. We want you to keep using everything you’ve purchased. As always, we’re trying to deliver to you the best deep character customization options in the industry.

Adventures Ahead!

I love the Remaster, but options are *already* gone from Archives of Nethys.
Which options?

Secrets of Magic Elementalist Spell List is missing. The current one is just the Rage of Elements spell list, which doesn't have all the options Secrets of Magic did. Blistering Invective, Flammable Fumes, etc.

Deities that appeared in Rage of Elements but also was written before have had their alignment removed. ie Sairazul

The SoM one is right here, for example, and those other spells are still up and findable.
The Secrets of Magic spell list literally isn't there?
...

I don't think you understand. In the Elementialist spell list, you can select the Inner Sea Elementialist option to see the exact same spells as the old archetype. The same content is still there.


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DemonicDem wrote:
GameDesignerDM wrote:
DemonicDem wrote:
GameDesignerDM wrote:
DemonicDem wrote:
Aaron Shanks wrote:

Hey players, Happy Equinox.

As you’re discussing the remaster changes, kindly be aware that the remaster reflects the rules we are using going forward, but that no content is being banned at your tables. We need to publish what we need to publish for the legal health and safety of our company—and we’re adding improvements to the game along the way. But nothing we’re printing should be considered a subtraction from the game you love. All the options will still be in the System Reference Document at Archives of Nethys.

The Remaster Project is a process. We’re going to be remastering Pathfinder at least into Gen Con 2024 with Player Core 2. And that doesn’t even address the errata that our design team may consider for every rule published after the Advanced Player’s Guide.

In short, a blended OGL/ORC experience should be expected for many months. And we’re never, we can’t, put an end date on what you play at your tables. We’re not coming to your home and taking away your older books. We want you to keep using everything you’ve purchased. As always, we’re trying to deliver to you the best deep character customization options in the industry.

Adventures Ahead!

I love the Remaster, but options are *already* gone from Archives of Nethys.
Which options?

Secrets of Magic Elementalist Spell List is missing. The current one is just the Rage of Elements spell list, which doesn't have all the options Secrets of Magic did. Blistering Invective, Flammable Fumes, etc.

Deities that appeared in Rage of Elements but also was written before have had their alignment removed. ie Sairazul

The SoM one is right here, for example, and those other spells are still up and findable.
The Secrets of Magic spell list literally isn't there? What are you talking about? That's the Rage of Elements...

See the updated archetype.

Elementalist Archetype from Rage of Elements wrote:


Secrets of Magic Elementalist: This section updates and expands the elementalist class archetype originally presented on page 206 of Secrets of Magic. If you're using the version of the archetype from Secrets of Magic and are happy with it, you don't need to make any changes—that original version functions the same as using the new text and choosing Inner Sea elementalism for your elemental philosophy!


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Because as of 2021 there was exactly one creature with weakness to acid.

I hate it when this stupid forum software truncates a quote, not quoting the part to which I want to reply. :-(

Interestingly, I tried searching AoN for creatures with weakness to acid. According to the documentation this is a complex search for "weakness.acid". When I do this, I get zero hits. However, when I changed the "acid" part to "cold", I also get zero hits, even though looking at the full list of creatures the first entry is Adult Gold Dragon, which does have a weakness to cold. So either I'm doing it wrong, or AoN is not working correctly.

Using the number filter on AoN to select creatures with at-least Weakness 1 to Acid, I found four creatures with a Weakness to Acid. For Cold, I found 77.

In comparison, about 133 creatures are resistant to Acid, with 199 resistant to Cold.

That indicates to me that there should be more creatures weak to Acid added. May the next version of the Bestiary take this into account.


So essentially casters should be able to get a Gate Attuner like item? That seems fine to me. If True Strike is a problem, then remove True Strike or make it a two action spell that applies on your next Strike (for up to a minute).

Honestly - is it not possible the Remaster will have Gate Attuners for caster classes? Have Paizo stated that won't happen or revealed enough items for us to believe it won't happen?


3-Body Problem wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:
Whatever about players*, the second solution particularly strikes me as essentially denying the player's successful spell** against the boss, which would feel pretty bad. How could a player ever expect that a GM would rule that the spell essentially works anyway, especially in a context whether the loss of an action - out of three - isn't going to matter? I'd be gutted as a player.

I do not see it that way. If a player under a similar effect asked me if they could use a normal action to cast Feather Fall instead of strictly a reaction, I would very likely allow it. What I'd allow for the player - and I make it known when situations like this come up - I also allow for their enemies. So in this case the boss, sans reactions, would fall gently away because it's what would happen if a player was in the same situation.

Quote:
(* generally, I think players knowing metaknowledge is a lot more allowable than bosses knowing metaknowledge due to the power dynamics - but I think that's something to talk about at the table for spell effects that aren't obvious)

I do not agree. Either everybody metagames or nobody does and given that my players are experienced and probably couldn't help but metagame bosses would get the same benefit. If people want to run it strictly raw and use flowery obfuscating spell descriptions so nobody can metagame I'd also be cool with that.

Quote:
(** and the first one strikes me a little about it as well, because how does the boss know? But less egregious since it still blocks the boss from doing an escape, and forces them to engage).

I've always ruled that you know the immediate effects of spells that impact you. So Hideous Laughter would mean you know you can't use reactions. As discussed above it just helps with evening things out when I know my players will be metagaming.

Okay, fair enough, but I'd be very careful about changing the action economy like that for reaction spells - that could lead to very strange situations.


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3-Body Problem wrote:


I would not run it that way at my table. The character would have either attempted to cast the spell and not have jumped when it didn't work (sane and intelligent) or been allowed to cast Feather Fall with a normal action as a means of escape (I would also allow my players to do the same). Either is a better solution than what happened.

Feather Fall is a reaction spell that has the trigger that it has to be cast on a creature within range that is falling. Unless the creature is falling, it can't attempt to Cast the Spell before jumping. Changing the spells action economy to be a full Action to avoid the effect is also bizarre. If a creature jumps out, they could use Grab an Edge instead to attempt to hold on.

Whatever about players*, the second solution particularly strikes me as essentially denying the player's successful spell** against the boss, which would feel pretty bad. How could a player ever expect that a GM would rule that the spell essentially works anyway, especially in a context whether the loss of an action - out of three - isn't going to matter? I'd be gutted as a player.

Isn't that what we're trying to avoid here? You seem to be arguing against yourself in this case - or at the least, rewarding players for good play and being somewhat adversarial against them?

(* generally, I think players knowing metaknowledge is a lot more allowable than bosses knowing metaknowledge due to the power dynamics - but I think that's something to talk about at the table for spell effects that aren't obvious)

(** and the first one strikes me a little about it as well, because how does the boss know? But less egregious since it still blocks the boss from doing an escape, and forces them to engage).


From a GM perspective, it feels to me that Magus and Wizards do need special consideration as spellcasters when it comes to spell availability and being able to learn more, since their Spellbook adaptability is a critical component of their class.

It does seem to be an issue where certain classes require special consideration - Inventor, Investigator, Magus, Wizard etc. - when it comes to ensuring they have access to different critical components that may not be as obvious as ordinary loot, or that the game structure enables their base assumptions to work. That advice would be most potent in non Adventure Path play, but would still be useful in Adventure Path play as a reminder to the GM that these considerations need to be taken into account if a player plays one of those classes.


I think a good question to ask is: would prepared spellcasters break the system if they all had Flexible Spellcaster without losing spellslots per day, cantrips learned, or having a specific collection of spells to prepare from?

I would like that to be a variant rule presented in the GM Core - mainly to hear the designers' thoughts on it. Does that make prepared spellcasters too strong?

Here's another question: would Wizard be too strong if they had Flexible Spellcaster but with the same amount of spellslots and cantrips learned as of now, and being able to use any spell in their spellbook whenever?


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SuperBidi wrote:
graystone wrote:
Say what now? Casters don't use wands?

Optimized casters don't.

A Wand gives you an additional spell per day and 2 for exceptional circumstances for 10 to 15 times the price of a scroll.
A small bunch of Scrolls (you don't need many, 2 or 3 scrolls of your highest level is enough) gives you 2 things:
- First, it's a buffer for the famous unexpected tough fight at the end of the unexpectedly long adventuring day. Because you have this buffer, you can be more liberal in your spell slot use. And thing is: The unexpected tough fight at the end of the unexpectedly long adventuring day is a rarity. So the result is just that you go to bed with more spells used, roughly 30-40% more than a caster without scrolls and you rarely use a scroll because of that. That's extra free spells, and more than the Wand can give you for half its price.
- Second, for life or death situations, you will cast as much as you can and you will end up using your scrolls (that's the main case when I use my scrolls). You will also overcharge your Wand (because it's a life or death situation so you don't really count your pennies). The Wand will give you 2 castings with half the chance to be broken for 10 to 15 times the price of a scroll.

The effect of Scrolls on your character is much bigger than the effect of Wands. Buying Wands of spells you can cast is a weak choice, you should buy Scrolls instead. But I get it, it's a bit hard to accept (it took me a bit of time to realize the effect of Scrolls on my character, but after saving the party from a TPK and a potential character death I was damn sure it was the optimized choice).

So, as a GM, the impression I am getting is that it's better to give wands as loot while letting players buy a variety of scrolls?


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Verzen wrote:

What I'd love to see is better magic item scaling.

I hate when magic items are only usable for 2 levels, then become useless.

At the very least, an official variant rule for upgrading specific magic items would be useful. I'm going to allow my players to do that - because I want them to have cool items and be able to use them until the ydon't want to.


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HeHateMe wrote:

Personally, I dislike the fact that to get from 18 to 20 in an ability, I need to invest two ability boosts into it, but the first one provides me no benefit at all. I would prefer if the rules just said you can't reach 20 in an ability until 10th lvl, and allow us to use that 5th level ability boost somewhere else rather than being forced to waste it.

It's also the only time an odd ability score is used in 2E, which is strange.

Do we know what the balance implications of this would be? I think it would certainly make MAD characters stronger - which could be appealing.


I feel like I'm missing something about Flexible Casting being default for Prepared Casters versus Spontanious Casters as they are now, and that being something that wouldn't make the Spontanious Caster chasis strictly worse at spellcasting.

What is the advantage, as a chasis, for Spontanious Casters if Prepared Casters got Flexible Casting for free? Not as a class - I can accept that with class abilities, Spontanious Casters have a place still. But it would seem to me then that being a Spontanious Caster would be a limit on your raw spellcasting power versus being a Prepared Flexible Spellcaster.

Am I misreading the rules?


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What would be the point of playing Spontanious Casters if other spellcasters got Flexible Casting for free?

My argument would be that while class features and specific exclusive spells do make a difference, but there would still be quite the power imbalance when it comes to spellcasting versatility and being able to react to handle different situations.

I think it's good that you have a choice between maximum flexibility in exchange for less spellslots and only being able to prepare a number of given spells at a time; flexibility in spell rank and how many spells you can know but you have to plan out your day; and flexibility in what spells you can cast but only knowing a few and only getting a little flexibility in spell rank.

I am interested in seeing arguments for flexibile spellcasting to be a default thing, but I am somewhat skeptical.


Red Metal wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:
Could Tandem Strike be worth it for a class such as Fighter to take if they get the Summoner Archetype (particularly in a Free Archetype game?) It could take a while to scale up but it could be somewhat attractive. I know you do not get Act Together unfortunately, but there could be other ways to make the character concept work, and you can get Tandem Movement beforehand.
Summoner Dedication explicitly forbids you from gaining or using tandem actions, so that wouldn't work.

That is a real shame :(


Could Tandem Strike be worth it for a class such as Fighter to take if they get the Summoner Archetype (particularly in a Free Archetype game?) It could take a while to scale up but it could be somewhat attractive. I know you do not get Act Together unfortunately, but there could be other ways to make the character concept work, and you can get Tandem Movement beforehand.


Ezekieru wrote:


The PF2E system for Foundry V10, and both the Abomination Vaults and the Beginner Box modules have been updated for V10.

I want to call out that right now, the PF2E system for Foundry V10 is in beta, and to expect bugs in the system for now.


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Aura states:

"An aura is an emanation that continually ebbs out from you, affecting creatures within a certain radius"

I feel that contradicts assuming all emanations just pulse out from the caster.

At the same time, Bless and Bane seem really difficult to use without being auras.

I think we do need a clarification on this; it seems like a strange rules bug.


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breithauptclan wrote:
Vali Nepjarson wrote:
I am finding myself in need of stat blocks for creatures that are beyond level 25.

I am extremely curious what the purpose of having stats for a level 25 creature would be.

You couldn't have it directly fight the players. That would just end badly.

So... ?

Vali has stated players will also increase their level and that they are going for a Mythic feel. I assume they are planning quite the long campaign or want their players to feel an extreme powerlevel.


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Wouldn't one of the best ways that Paizo could address trans rights and LGBTQIA+ issues would be to engage with organisations like Stonewall, etc.?


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Squiggit wrote:
It's interesting how radically different different players' PF2 experiences are.

It is pretty cool to see. Makes me really interested in running the game with people who haven't kept up with this conversations like I have.


SuperBidi wrote:


And there's also the question of average VS optimized. As Fighters can be either Strength or Dexterity based, and Dexterity based Fighters are quite bad, do you consider the class strong because of its best builds or average because it has both good and bad builds?

Why are Dexterity Fighers bad in PF2e? Just unable to take account of the correct feats etc? Could they not be great archers?


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Reading this thread has been interesting, as I had been wonderign about Aid and aiding attacks, and whether the DC should be set to the AC of the creature, as that sounded like what would be appropriate following the rules.

But I think staying to DC20 to encourage its use and distinguish between success and critical success is important.


Cyouni wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

My proposals for Warpriest would be:

Fourth Doctrine: you would also gain expert in all martial weapons.

Fifth Doctrine. you gain master weapon profiency with your diety's favoured weapon.

Final Doctrine: you would also gain master weapon profiency with martial weapons.

How do people feel this would land with how Warpriests are right now? Too good?

Question: what does Magus then have to offer if Warpriest brings their proficiencies, but also 3 spells/level and divine font?

I don't think spellstrike and hybrid study would even come close in that comparison.

That is a good point and criticise. It is difficult to balance; though the Magus is a lot more offense minded and a better striker, since the Divine spell list is typically pretty restricted outside of what spells you get from following particular gods.

I haven't played or ran the system yet (as much as I want to!), so I haven't seen if there are any problems with the Warpriest versus Cloister in terms of balance or how good it feels; though I would guess that Cloister is better in more parties, while Warpriests might require specific combinations of party classes.


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For those who have ran and played through the adventure; how well would this adapt to being used as an intro before going into Strenght of Thousands with similar or different characters?


AnimatedPaper wrote:
MadamReshi wrote:

My proposals for Warpriest would be:

Fourth Doctrine: you would also gain expert in all martial weapons.

Fifth Doctrine. you gain master weapon profiency with your diety's favoured weapon.

Final Doctrine: you would also gain master weapon profiency with martial weapons.

How do people feel this would land with how Warpriests are right now? Too good?

A problem is the lack of armor proficiency and, to a lesser extent, greater weapon specialization. Also never increasing your spell DCs also cuts into how effective your crits are.

My first try at giving a fully martial chassis (or as close as the doctrine system allows) was to never increase spell dc and attack rolls to make room for the armor and greater weapon. Then I changed it to still giving spell dcs but not spell attack rolls, but that’s almost a meaningless distinction with the divine spell list.

So yeah, can be done, but not without breaking stuff and having your character be oddly weak in several places.

To clarify, everything I was suggesting is in addition to what it also gives you. Not having greater weapon specialsation and more armor profiency is unfortunate, but I feel that those might push warpriest over too being too much. Perhaps maybe giving better armmor proficiency instead for Final Doctrine?


My proposals for Warpriest would be:

Fourth Doctrine: you would also gain expert in all martial weapons.

Fifth Doctrine. you gain master weapon profiency with your diety's favoured weapon.

Final Doctrine: you would also gain master weapon profiency with martial weapons.

How do people feel this would land with how Warpriests are right now? Too good?


I t hink it all depends on the approach the author takes in their post.

Personally, I take an approach that Subjectivity is Implied when talking about things like this. Nothing I am trying to put across in my arguments is meant to be taken as 100% objective besides the facts themselves. Where I to say what I think is the best class, I would say "x is the best class", but I would mean it from my perspective... without having to put in all the qualifiers for it.

It is obviously fine and useful to sprinkle in terms such as "from my point of view" or "in my opinion", but otherwise it can bog down the point if you constantly have to qualify where you're coming from; or it dilutes the point and makes it too weak for what you want to come across with.

So while postulating the conclusion you have in the form of a question as a potential means of bait is wrong, I don't think it's problematic if you're not pretending to be objective on anything and you're willing to argue your case.


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For anyone who is male or masculine, please remember that you are not alone and that your mental health is important; opening up, particularly emotionally can be quite difficult, but talking and reaching out does help. You are valid.


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If you can't see how religion (particularly organised religion) can be used to harm and hurt people; that it is okay to criticise that harm and hurt without spreading religious hatred / hatred of anyone of a particular religion (which is often tied to racism); and that those criticisms are different from the transphobia faced by trans people...

I don't know how else to explain it.


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Thanks for this. This is making more positive that Paizo as a whole can turn the corner - but it's clear the workers and staff themselves are good peeps.


Wildly off topic, I know, but at this stage someone has to PM me the lore behind Gorbacz.

But seconding Cori's comment.

I am glad there is a mechanism to properly deal with bigotry and other awful users.

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