[Insert your Deity here] is dead. How do you react?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Out of the 20 Gods of the Inner Sea, I doubt Abadar, Asmodeus, Desna, Gozreh, Irori, Lamashtu, Pharasma, Rovagug, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag, or Zon-Kuthon will be killed. They are either too powerful, have portfolios that are unique, or stories that will be completely disrupted if they are gone.

Cayden Cailean, Erastil, and Gorum are slightly less safe (IMO), but I don't see why Arazni would want to take their place. Arazni might have a beef with Urgathoa, but that would mostly remove the "evil necromantic priest BBEG" from many adventures.

I could possibly see Arazni taking over for Calistra (new god of vengeance), Iomedae (not killed, but gives up divinity to Aroden's first herald), Nethys (new god of magic), or Norgorber (new god of conspiracies, plots, and trickery?).

Killing Iomedae would have some serious repercussions of the "things got MUCH worse in a very grimdark way" on the ongoing storyline with the Gravelands.

Liberty's Edge

Scarablob wrote:

WotR and TG (and I would add Return of the Runelords in the same degree of impactfullness) all only really affected a single region of the setting, and background "lesser deities", so they are quite a bit less impactfull than what War of the Immortal promises to be if it shake up the core pantheon, and possibly larger part of golarion.

Not that it's inherently bad, it doesn't seems to be a comicbook level "the world will never be the same!!!" event, but it still promises to be the most impactfull event yet, so I can understand why people would be wary.

I see what you mean. I meant the setting as the Inner Sea Region. Not the whole of Golarion.


I also meant the inner sea region, WotR only really affected Sarkoris, Mendev and the followers of Deskari, Tyran's Grasp only really affected the surrounding of the Eye of Dread and Geb, and created a new minor (so far) godess in Arazni, and Return of the Runelords only really affected Varisia, the neighbouring countries and Nocticula's faith. Losing any of those would have have far more reaching implications (as is the case for most AP), but by winning, the real shakeup turned out to be mostly regionnal, none of this really changed how the River Kingdoms, Osirion or Cheliax worked for exemple.

Removing one of the core deity meanwhile promize to shakeup the whole inner sea region (and truly, the whole of golarion), so it's a bigger change of status quo.


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Kittyburger wrote:
Killing Iomedae would have some serious repercussions of the "things got MUCH worse in a very grimdark way" on the ongoing storyline with the Gravelands.

Fitting though, considering Arazni, the confirmed new Core 20 Member, is already empowering a major faction of the Knights there. Would make sense for her to become the Knights full-time patron as a result.

Grand Lodge

Benjamin Tait wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Killing Iomedae would have some serious repercussions of the "things got MUCH worse in a very grimdark way" on the ongoing storyline with the Gravelands.
Fitting though, considering Arazni, the confirmed new Core 20 Member, is already empowering a major faction of the Knights there. Would make sense for her to become the Knights full-time patron as a result.

And unfortunately, taking something optimistic away and replacing it with something pessimistic sells.


I wanted to say that the proeminence of Irabeth the paladin of Iomedae as a big NPC in various books (being the first NPC of the setting that show up in the new GM core book) make killing Iomedae unlikely, but who am I kidding. Pushing her to the forefront to then have her reckon with the death of her godess, and thus represent every PC that have to reckon with the same thing, would make perfect sense.

It would actually explain rather well why she is still so proeminent despite not being a "big political figure", and despite her story having somewhat already been told. The only reason why I'm not betting on Iomedea right now is because Arazni isn't supposed to take the dead god portfolio, but given her history and how the setting is right now, I don't see how she can not take the crusader god portfolio if Iomedae get killed.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If Lamashtu dies raining the afterbirth of bestial horrors down onto Golarion, I will personal devote all future characters to her worship, even if they can never possibly cast a divine spell. If it is her, and she dies any other way, my characters will all forsake all gods forever.


Ah yes. Just looked at the Core 20 in my bright and shiny new Player Core. That is...unfortunate?

Liberty's Edge

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19 deities will still be there as they were. Not bad I think.


Bad if you were that one deity. I guess unless you have a really, really, relativistic view on existence. "It was my time..."


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Unicore wrote:
If Lamashtu dies raining the afterbirth of bestial horrors down onto Golarion, I will personal devote all future characters to her worship, even if they can never possibly cast a divine spell. If it is her, and she dies any other way, my characters will all forsake all gods forever.

Whoever dies, Paizo should title the relevant AP book "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs Godsrain".


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Iomedae's death empowering a bunch of Exemplars to fight on and potentially rise as new heroes - while also forcing Arazni to confront how many people need her - is just so perfect.


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Awesome Wizard wrote:
I also kind of like Zyphus and I wouldn't mind him getting to chill and have a beer with me. Comparing Zyphus to Naderi who is also very attractive
Cool Rhodiani wrote:
Zyphus would be interesting
Scarablob wrote:
he could always get expanded bc he is already very swole and strong

thx dudes preciate the support. don't forget to like and subscribe

Liberty's Edge

keftiu wrote:
Iomedae's death empowering a bunch of Exemplars to fight on and potentially rise as new heroes - while also forcing Arazni to confront how many people need her - is just so perfect.

Exemplars can be evil and even Unholy too though.

Liberty's Edge

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OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:
Bad if you were that one deity. I guess unless you have a really, really, relativistic view on existence. "It was my time..."

Only the GM gets to play a deity in my games.


The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Iomedae's death empowering a bunch of Exemplars to fight on and potentially rise as new heroes - while also forcing Arazni to confront how many people need her - is just so perfect.
Exemplars can be evil and even Unholy too though.

We also know that the source of divine power doesn't have any bearing on how the new exemplar will necessarily behave. The iconic exemplar acquired his power from fighting a demon.

Calliope5431 wrote:

Basically, my point is this: fantasy settings and worlds have a very nasty tendency to change dramatically very quickly when protagonists are involved. This is fine if you're only in the setting for a few years. For instance, the events of LotR take about a year in universe. The events of Wheel of Time take around 10. Your typical comic book arc takes a few years to resolve. And that's fine. You can have an action packed five years. It happens in real life all the time (see: WW2). You kill some gods, murder some Runelords, destroy an archlich or two, and have half a dozen coups. Sink a country into the sea. Good stuff.

But then you have to tell another story. You have to, as you say, "keep things from getting stale" (though I'll point out that Eberron hasn't changed in like 20 years and people still like it). So you come up with another grand arc. Another country sinks into the sea. Another half dozen countries have coups. You kill some more ancient wizards (where are all these wizards coming from anyway? Yeesh). Topple another dark lord.

This continues for a few more cycles, and assuming you don't do a continuity reboot (Mystra is alive again! The Joker didn't actually die! Voldemort is back! Again! For the third time!) suddenly you look around and you realize... nothing matters. The PCs saved Varisia in Rise of the Runelords...shame it fell into the sea like Atlantis. The PCs put their favored candidate on the throne of Taldor in War For the Crown... shame there was another war for said crown afterwards. Your cleric retired after Curse of the Crimson Throne, a faithful servant of (your god's name here). Shame that god just kicked the bucket.

That's why continuity reboots happen. It's because after 10-20 years, the authors have killed Superman, redeemed the Joker, and sent Robin off to college. The setting is unrecognizable.

It's not an issue for pathfinder yet, but it will be eventually.

I admit the time skip thing is really a separate issue, revolving around implausible PC leveling rates (if it takes three months to go from level 1 to level 20, why aren't there more level 20 characters around? Why are there so many thousand-year-old wizards who are level 12?) but it comes back to the same issue. Fantasy worlds can suffer from being"lived in" for too long, and you can only do so many "this arc will CHANGE THE WORLD" stories before you start getting jaded about anything actually changing the world.

I can think of two points in Pathfinder's favor in this regard, and they both have to deal with scope, kinda.

1. Pathfinder hasn't got the same output as a comic book universe. (I know you were talking about fantasy worlds, but comics are the quintessential retconning example, and you brought them up a couple times.) It's not being produced over dozens of lines with dozens of characters, each chipping away at the status quoe until there needs to be a reset. You've got, what, three or four lines where things can happen? Five if novels or more web fiction starts appearing. That is still a fair amount of content, but that leads to,

2. Pathfinder's scope isn't always that large. Yeah, the Adventure Paths will generally culminate in a big fight against a big bad with big consequences, but at most that's happening twice a year, perhaps thrice if we take Pathfinder Society seasons into account as well. The rest of the time, and also an increasing amount of the time, the stories are scaled down to be appropriate challenges for lower level parties, with lower level stakes. Given that lower level adventures appear to be more popular I wouldn't be surprised if this trend increased over time, with fewer world-shaking events going on in a given year.

TL; DR: Pathfinder's slower release schedule and need to create material that can accommodate a wide range of play help to combat the narrative entropy that might otherwise erode it. Its world has been stable enough that it's only two years older than 4E and its conversion back into the more familiar form of 5E, and I'm pretty sure that fifteen years is about as long as some comic universes have survived between reboots.

Liberty's Edge

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APs also tend to not be setting-shattering events as long as the PCs win.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
APs also tend to not be setting-shattering events as long as the PCs win.

Indeed. Years back, this was a major topic on these boards...

Because most APs revolve around the PCs stopping epic(ly terrible) world-shaking events from happening.


Yup, most AP are either a near complete return to the status quo (like rise of the runelords), or a "step in the right direction" that still leave the status quo largely unchanged, it's just that thing have an opportunity to start to get better now (like council of thieves). Even AP that does significantly shake up the world limit themselves to a few regions, without affecting anything massively. For the moment, I don't think there is a single one truly "setting changing" AP that affected Golarion or the inner sea as a whole.

I'd say the most far reaching are Wrath of the Righteous, Return of the Runelords, Tyran's Grasp and Strength of Thousands, all having rather big impact in their respective regions, but not really affecting things much beyond them. Maybe Iron Gods too, but I'm not that aware of numeria, so I don't know how deeply the AP affected it.

Shadow Lodge

Scarablob wrote:
Maybe Iron Gods too, but I'm not that aware of numeria, so I don't know how deeply the AP affected it.

Iron Gods you wind up with

Spoiler:
a new deity. Whether that's a fairly benign one without much impact outside Numeria, or one that enslaves the entire world with a memetic faith virus, is dependent on the players.

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thistledown wrote:
Scarablob wrote:
Maybe Iron Gods too, but I'm not that aware of numeria, so I don't know how deeply the AP affected it.
Iron Gods you wind up with ** spoiler omitted **

It's worth saying that 2e has committed to a pretty benevolent take on Casandalee as the canon outcome.


Zyphus wrote:
Awesome Wizard wrote:
I also kind of like Zyphus and I wouldn't mind him getting to chill and have a beer with me. Comparing Zyphus to Naderi who is also very attractive
Cool Rhodiani wrote:
Zyphus would be interesting
Scarablob wrote:
he could always get expanded bc he is already very swole and strong
thx dudes preciate the support. don't forget to like and subscribe

SIGH FINE I'LL WORSHIP YOU, if that makes you ha-- *dies, accidentally*


Since they’re going to off one of the big twenty … will future versions of the Player Core need to be reprinted with Arazni and will those of us who adopted early need to draw a big X over the dead god’s writeup in our copies?


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Qaianna wrote:
Since they’re going to off one of the big twenty … will future versions of the Player Core need to be reprinted with Arazni and will those of us who adopted early need to draw a big X over the dead god’s writeup in our copies?

I mean, they didn't redraw any maps in PF1 books after Ravounel gained its independence from Cheliax, since maybe people hadn't gotten around to playing Hell's Rebels yet. I imagine War of Immortals is going to be kind of like that, where we're not going to insist on its canonicity when people might not have played the attached story yet.

For PF3 we're going to update the set.


Zyphus wrote:
Scarablob wrote:
he could always get expanded bc he is already very swole and strong
thx dudes preciate the support. don't forget to like and subscribe

I somehow don't remember writing that. Nor do I remember liking your post. Something's wrong is afoot here.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Qaianna wrote:
Since they’re going to off one of the big twenty … will future versions of the Player Core need to be reprinted with Arazni and will those of us who adopted early need to draw a big X over the dead god’s writeup in our copies?

I mean, they didn't redraw any maps in PF1 books after Ravounel gained its independence from Cheliax, since maybe people hadn't gotten around to playing Hell's Rebels yet. I imagine War of Immortals is going to be kind of like that, where we're not going to insist on its canonicity when people might not have played the attached story yet.

For PF3 we're going to update the set.

Fair enough, I guess.

Also never mentioned my other PF character, Zort the ‘dwarf’ wizard. She picked Irez to hit her older brother’s anathema buttons, so if the Lady of Inscribed Wonder ends up as collateral damage Zort would shrug and find another bookish/literary deity.


A thread for those who think this is all made up

Part of that thread with possibilities on sources of/handling loss of deity

Radiant Oath

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Dranngvit is dead? I'm free! I'm free!

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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I am very pleased to see that people are having as much fun with this as we are in the office.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jonathan Morgantini wrote:
I am very pleased to see that people are having as much fun with this as we are in the office.

This is why I think Paizo's maintained my loyalty over...

Oh god.

I got old.

Anyway!

You guys have some of that, "we play too" vibe that kinda evaporated when WotC swooped in and scooped up TSR.


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I give up trying to run Paizo APs.
Because it’s already a case of 1e, 2e or 2e remastered, so which rules do the not very rules-oriented players in our group have to remember this time?

If you also have to add in ”pre- or post- death of (insert deity), pre- or post- destruction of (insert country)”.. or whatever shennanigans Paizo pulls next people get confused about their knowledge of the gameworld.

Trying to pick an AP with a theme that all the players like, with a ruleset they all have access to and can remember (yes I know AoN exists, but we aren’t always on line) and now a confusion about the world state at the point at which that AP was written just becomes one complication too many.

TLDR it feels like a plot for devoted Paizo fans and a disincentive for more casual players.


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Neriathale wrote:

I give up trying to run Paizo APs.

Because it’s already a case of 1e, 2e or 2e remastered, so which rules do the not very rules-oriented players in our group have to remember this time?

If you also have to add in ”pre- or post- death of (insert deity), pre- or post- destruction of (insert country)”.. or whatever shennanigans Paizo pulls next people get confused about their knowledge of the gameworld.

Trying to pick an AP with a theme that all the players like, with a ruleset they all have access to and can remember (yes I know AoN exists, but we aren’t always on line) and now a confusion about the world state at the point at which that AP was written just becomes one complication too many.

TLDR it feels like a plot for devoted Paizo fans and a disincentive for more casual players.

I'd note that no nations have been destroyed during 2e, so that feels like an odd one to list; Lastwall blew up at the end of 1e, and there hasn't been anything equivalent since.

Golarion's always moved forward, ever since the outset - the Runelords popping back up was, itself, a change, and Pathfinder Society's been around for ages. It being a living campaign setting is a big part of the appeal for over a decade now! If you want something more static, those options exist.

Liberty's Edge

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Neriathale wrote:

I give up trying to run Paizo APs.

Because it’s already a case of 1e, 2e or 2e remastered, so which rules do the not very rules-oriented players in our group have to remember this time?

If you also have to add in ”pre- or post- death of (insert deity), pre- or post- destruction of (insert country)”.. or whatever shennanigans Paizo pulls next people get confused about their knowledge of the gameworld.

Trying to pick an AP with a theme that all the players like, with a ruleset they all have access to and can remember (yes I know AoN exists, but we aren’t always on line) and now a confusion about the world state at the point at which that AP was written just becomes one complication too many.

TLDR it feels like a plot for devoted Paizo fans and a disincentive for more casual players.

I feel most APs do not rely much on outside events, so the world state should not usually matter. As for the ruleset, I feel thar, for players who are not rules-oriented, it is much less of a problem than if you have rules lawyers around the table. Though the former puts most of the weight of the rules knowledge on the GM IME. Which I do not mind TBT.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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Neriathale wrote:

I give up trying to run Paizo APs.

Because it’s already a case of 1e, 2e or 2e remastered, so which rules do the not very rules-oriented players in our group have to remember this time?

If you also have to add in ”pre- or post- death of (insert deity), pre- or post- destruction of (insert country)”.. or whatever shennanigans Paizo pulls next people get confused about their knowledge of the gameworld.

Trying to pick an AP with a theme that all the players like, with a ruleset they all have access to and can remember (yes I know AoN exists, but we aren’t always on line) and now a confusion about the world state at the point at which that AP was written just becomes one complication too many.

TLDR it feels like a plot for devoted Paizo fans and a disincentive for more casual players.

And honestly? The reflection of our world in published works need not reflect what happens at your table. Plenty of people here will tell you that they ignored THIS plot hook or their players chose THAT ending to that AP. Rule #1 is make it fun for those who are playing. Kill a different god. Dont kill a god. Change whatever you like. We provide a POSSIBLE way forward, but it is far from the only one.

That being said? Play what makes you happy absolutely and always


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I mean, I fully expect in some people's War of the Immortals campaigns there are going to be extra deities dying. It would be disappointing if it's not structured in a way that tables can't finally get their revenge against [whoever] then that would be disappointing.

Like I would not be surprised if Ihys is the Lord of Hell by the end of our campaign. That honestly feels like a way to resolve our "Hell's Vengeance Failed, Westcrown is an independent Semi-Enclave" puzzle.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I feel like the impact of most AP's is pretty geographically locked. You don't tend to see their impacts on the canon of the rest of the setting until an edition change. The remaster broke that rule a little, but mostly in drow being gone and stuff being renamed.

I'm not sure how much the death of a major deity changes things beyond "oh hey that happened," but I could be wrong. It doesn't feel like an incredibly complicated piece of canon to ingest.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Even name changes aren't that big of a deal. It's just updating us on what the in-world word has been all along, while we've been using shorthand in the meanwhile.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Even name changes aren't that big of a deal. It's just updating us on what the in-world word has been all along, while we've been using shorthand in the meanwhile.

‘So THAT’S why the wizard keeps calling me an amurrun?’


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Neriathale wrote:

I give up trying to run Paizo APs.

Because it’s already a case of 1e, 2e or 2e remastered, so which rules do the not very rules-oriented players in our group have to remember this time?

...

Whichever rules the GM wants to use. Conversion's really not especially difficult, and there's truckloads of material for 1E and 2E by now, so...

Quote:
If you also have to add in ”pre- or post- death of (insert deity), pre- or post- destruction of (insert country)”.. or whatever shennanigans Paizo pulls next people get confused about their knowledge of the gameworld.

Given how many APs are about stopping major changes to the setting...

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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I will definitely be checking back here in oh.. 3 hours? to see what everyone is talking about...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Cruel Jon, Cruel.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

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Ahem.. 10 minutes...

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